Conversing

Against persistent fear of death, mortality avoidance, and the vices that emerge from terror management, this episode offers a personal testimony of a Christian experience of dying. With scientific precision, disarming honesty, and immense gratitude for life, biologist Jeff Schloss offers an intimate, firsthand account of his recent diagnosis of an extremely rare terminal neurological disease: multiple system atrophy (MSA). His doctors put the prognosis plainly: "It is terminal, it is incurable, and it's rapidly progressive." A longtime and beloved Westmont College biology professor and senior scholar at BioLogos, Schloss offers speaks directly to the experience of dying—as he encounters each new week of this rapidly progressive disease. He reconsiders the meaning of a "good death": increased gratitude and awareness of gift, the reality of pain, the loss of surfing and guitar-playing, the sacredness of family, and the surprising nearness of Christ as everything else falls away. A profound witness to Christian attitudes about life and death, Schloss seeks not a hero's death, but a daily, humble life-giving commerce with Christ. Schloss revisits a life that began in a nonreligious Jewish refugee family and pivoted through a dramatic conversion as a college-dropout surf bum in Hawaii. He traces what has changed, and what hasn't, now that death is no longer an abstraction but a daily fact in his body. With pastoral care and hope, Mark Labberton explores with Schloss what it means to experience dying rather than simply anticipate it, the grief of losing fifty years of surfing and guitar-playing to pain and paralysis, the gift of Simone Weil's writing on suffering, the Heidelberg Catechism's opening words on "our only comfort in life and in death," and the difference between the thrill of surfing and the sacredness of family and commerce with Christ. Episode Highlights I knew from the second grade that I wanted to be a scientist. I was out collecting butterflies and dragonflies and looking through microscopes at all sorts of things that I couldn't believe were there. As we were talking, it just occurred to me ... he either had what I wanted, or he was clinically crazy. It is terminal, it is incurable, and it's rapidly progressive ... the process of dying I find it fascinating ... It's not fun, but it is fascinating. She wasn't sad just for herself, I'm gonna lose you. And she wasn't sad empathetically just for me, so sorry for you. It was a joint sadness that the life we had hoped to share together, we are not gonna have. The things that are most life giving are out of reach ... I've come to see it's actually not true. The things that have been delightful are out of reach ... the thing that is most life giving, and that is commerce with Christ. I think it was the single most thrilling day of my entire life ... I said, no, those weren't thrilling, those were sacred. I don't want to market this season. I'm not looking for a hero's death, or any kind of publicly attended death. I would have never guessed that in this home stretch, my son and wife could carry me up the slopes of Yosemite Valley. About Jeff Schloss Jeff Schloss has spent four decades at the intersection of evolutionary biology and Christian theology. Now retired as Distinguished Professor of Biology at Westmont College, he continues as senior scholar at BioLogos, working alongside Francis Collins for more than fifteen years. He co-edited "The Believing Primate: Scientific, Philosophical, and Theological Reflections on the Origin of Religion" and "Evolution and Ethics: Human Morality in Biological and Religious Perspective," a Templeton Science-Religion Book of Distinction winner. He has lectured at Cambridge, Oxford, and Harvard. Helpful Links and Resources Jeff Schloss's page at BioLogos, where he serves as senior scholar: https://biologos.org/people/jeffrey-schloss Finding Faith: An Evolutionary Biologist Shares His Story, Schloss's own video testimony for BioLogos: https://biologos.org/resources/finding-faith-an-evolutionary-biologist-shares-his-story Tackling the Divide Between Science and Faith, Westmont Magazine's profile of Schloss's career: https://www.westmont.edu/magazine/spring-2025/tackling-divide-between-science-and-faith The Believing Primate: Scientific, Philosophical, and Theological Reflections on the Origin of Religion, Schloss's co-edited volume: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-believing-primate-9780199597086 Evolution and Ethics: Human Morality in Biological and Religious Perspective, Schloss's Templeton Award-winning co-edited volume: https://www.eerdmans.com/9780802826954/evolution-and-ethics/ Alvin Plantinga, Where the Conflict Really Lies: Science, Religion, and Naturalism, source of the Augustinian science concept Schloss references: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/where-the-conflict-really-lies-9780199812097 Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 1, the confession Labberton reads to close the episode: https://www.heidelberg-catechism.com/en/lords-days/1.html Multiple System Atrophy overview, National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke: https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/multiple-system-atrophy Show Notes Childhood in a nonreligious German Jewish refugee family Grandfather taken by the Gestapo, relatives lost in the Holocaust Early love of butterflies, dragonflies, and microscopes A sixth-grade encounter with Confucius sparks a love of philosophy College philosophy major searching for purpose and for God Dropping out, becoming a surf bum in Hawaii A stranger's dinner invitation becomes a turning point A late-night prayer of surrender met by an unmistakable presence Grad school pairing biology, philosophy, and the study of altruism Alvin Plantinga's Augustinian science and reading creation with a map Decades as senior scholar at BioLogos alongside Francis Collins Why church and science drifted apart over vaccines and politics Science as a reliable path to facts, not truth itself A new diagnosis: rare, terminal, rapidly progressive neurological disease—multiple systems atrophy (MSA) Doctors estimate an average of three years, with wide variation The difference between studying death as a biologist versus the real-time experience of dying A spouse's grief for a shared future that will not happen Losing surfing and guitar-playing as an unplanned kind of fasting Pain described as systemic, exhausting, disorienting Cognitive decline and dark humor about it Distinguishing what is thrilling from what is truly sacred The ache of no longer being able to research and create A flicker of despair met by a choice not to despair Wanting a real death, not a hero's death A wish to thank former students and colleagues before the end Not wanting to become a burden to family Giving God all of one's heart, without earning salvation by it Bonhoeffer's costly grace versus cheap grace Gratitude over entitlement as the ground of faith Simone Weil on suffering as a place grace can work A closing blessing and the Heidelberg Catechism's opening words Carried up the slopes of Yosemite by a son and a wife #ConversingPodcast #MarkLabberton #JeffSchloss #FaithAndScience #BioLogos #MultipleSystemAtrophy #Mortality #ChristianFaith #Westmont #Gratitude Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

As we come to the 250th celebration of America's founding, what is happening in our country? Pundits, writers, historians, political scientists, and average citizens are all trying to take stock of where we are as a nation. In this episode, we seek perspective by returning to the conversation between Mark Labberton and David Brooks immediately following the 2024 election, before the beginning of Trump's second term and all the events that have unfolded since. Whether you come to the 250th celebrating our national life, or questioning our national life; whether you're in support of what's happening currently in America, or whether you're overwhelmed by so much that you wish was different, may we give thanks. Thanks be to God for the place that we get to live, even as it's a place that is struggling to reach its ideals, and may we continue to pray and seek its welfare, its justice, its purpose, its fairness, and its equity. In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (The Atlantic, formerly of The New York Times) for reflections about the 2024 General Election, the state of American politics, and how we got here. Together they discuss the multi-generational class divide; sources of alienation and distrust; how loss of faith and meaning influences political life; intellectual virtues of courage, firmness, humility, and flexibility; what it means to be a Republican in exile; the capacity for self-awareness and self-critique; and much more. Episode Highlights "In my opinion, Donald Trump is the wrong answer to the right question." "The flow of status and respect in this country has gone to people with elite credentials." "If you tell 51% of the country 'Your voices don't matter,' people are going to get upset." "Jesus was more a badass revolutionary than an Oxford don." "The world just loves a human being that's trying to act like Jesus." Helpful Links and Resources "Confessions of a Republican Exile" (The Atlantic): https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/10/trumpism-republican-party-exile-david-brooks/680243/ How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen, by David Brooks: https://www.amazon.com/How-Know-Person-Seeing-Others/dp/059323006X My Bright Abyss: Meditation of a Modern Believer, by Christian Wiman: https://www.amazon.com/My-Bright-Abyss-Meditation-Believer/dp/0374534373 David Brooks's current writing at The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/david-brooks/ Brooks and Capehart, PBS NewsHour: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/tag/brooks-and-capehart About David Brooks David Brooks is staff writer for The Atlantic and is Presidential Senior Fellow at Yale Jackson School of Global Affairs. Prior to that he wrote for The New York Times for 22 years*.* He is author of How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen; The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life; Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There; The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and is founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project. Show Notes A spiritual or emotional crisis we're working out in American politics Should we blame inflation and economic factors? (Biden's Covid-19 overstimulation) Class divide is a generational thing High-school-educated voters are increasingly alienated from the Democratic Party Alienation and distrust is a multi-decade process Loss of Faith, Loss of Meaning, and the "Death of God" An exiled Republican "Confessions of a Republican Exile" (via The Atlantic): "A longtime conservative, alienated by Trumpism, tries to come to terms with life on the moderate edge of the Democratic Party." "I'm a Whig." ("Abraham Lincoln was a Whig.") Edmund Burke and epistemological modesty—"don't revolutionize something you don't understand." You should operate on society in the way you operate on your father, with care. Alexander Hamilton Whig tradition is unrepresented in contemporary American politics How David Brooks waffles between Democrat and Republican Isaiah Berlin: "At the rightward edge of the leftward tendency." "The capacity for self-critique" Matt Yglesias Humble, introspective, and "how did we get so out of touch?" Racism and sexism are not what's driving Trump voters "In my opinion, Donald Trump is the wrong answer to the right question." Mark Noll and America's use of the Bible: un-self-aware and un-self-critical Why is there more capacity for self-critique on the Democratic side? Jonathan Rauch and "Epistemic Regime": includes media, universities, scientific research, review process, etc. "There's still a core of people who believe 'if the evidence says x, you should say y.'" "The greatest victory in the history of the world." Intellectual Virtues: Courage, Firmness, Flexibility "Reality is constantly going to surprise you." 1980s Republicanism was more intellectually sophisticated Conservative book publishing *Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Change* by Jonah Goldberg How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen by David Brooks "The Stacking Stereotype" "A redistribution of respect" (away from large swaths of America and to elites) "The flow of status and respect in this country has gone to people with elite credentials." "… almost no Trump supporters." "If you tell 51% of the country 'Your voices don't matter,' people are going to get upset." America changing beneath us High level of spiritual and moral authority and low level of intellectual confidence The moral teaching of the New Testament "People are unitary wholes." "I became a Christian around 2013." "Jesus was more a badass revolutionary than an Oxford don." C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien's Christianity "What it's like to be in the claustrophobic mind of a narcissist." Aggression: a joyless way to see the faith What is needed? "I was a 50-year-old atheist." Christian Wiman (My Bright Abyss: Meditation of a Modern Believer): materialistic categories couldn't explain the world "If they made me pope of the evangelicals, which is a job that makes me shudder…" "Be not afraid." "The world just loves a human being that's trying to act like Jesus." David Brooks's teaching at Yale The Long Loneliness: The Autobiography of the Legendary Catholic Social Activist by Dorothy Day #Conversing #DavidBrooks #MarkLabberton #FaithAndPolitics #AmericanPolitics #HowToKnowAPerson #ChristianHumanism #Election2024 Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Tim Shriver has spent a lifetime learning to see the people the rest of us are socialized to look past. The chairman of Special Olympics, co-creator of the Dignity Index, and son of Eunice Kennedy Shriver and Sargent Shriver, he argues that what's tearing America apart isn't how much we differ, but how we treat one another when we do. "We're not being torn apart by difference. We're being torn apart by the way we treat each other when we differ." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Shriver reflects on the teachers who shaped him—students and athletes who taught him a different way of seeing. They discuss the Dignity Index, contempt, toxic empathy that gives way to excusing harm, the role of "self-purification" in Martin Luther King Jr.'s non-violent campaigns, his Catholic faith, and the embracing the Eucharist as self-giving love. Episode Highlights "We're not being torn apart by difference. We're being torn apart by the way we treat each other when we differ." "Empathy is knowing and understanding. Dignity is valuing and seeing." "You will have a superpower if you fight for your principles with all the passion you've got and add one principle: treat the other human being with dignity at the same time." "They're not crying because they're sad for the athlete. They're crying because something is coming out of them." "Concretely, you may hold, you may touch, you may drink of the face of God." About Tim Shriver Timothy Shriver has chaired Special Olympics International since 1996, growing the movement to over four million athletes worldwide. The third child of Eunice Kennedy Shriver and Sargent Shriver, he taught for years in New Haven public schools and helped launch the field of social and emotional learning, co-founding and chairing CASEL. In 2018 he founded UNITE to bridge America's political divides and co-created the Dignity Index, an eight-point scale from contempt to respect. He is the author of the New York Times bestselling memoir Fully Alive: Discovering What Matters Most, and holds degrees from Yale and Catholic University and a doctorate from the University of Connecticut. Helpful links and Resources Fully Alive: Discovering What Matters Most, by Tim Shriver https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374535827/fullyalive/ The Call to Unite: Voices of Hope and Awakening, edited by Tim Shriver https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/671260/the-call-to-unite-by-edited-by-tim-shriver-and-tom-rosshirt/ The Dignity Index: https://www.dignity.us Special Olympics: https://www.specialolympics.org "Letter from Birmingham Jail": https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/letter-birmingham-jail Show Notes Living and teaching in New Haven, Connecticut; learning to see dignity Born 1959; family moves to D.C. after JFK's 1960 election Sargent Shriver, the Peace Corps, and a faith that demanded more Living "eye to eye" in the village Aunt Rosemary and the camp that became Special Olympics "An unapologetic conviction that if we worked together, we could change the world." Choosing teaching over law; a hunger to go deep, not fast The high school visit that changed everything The student who dreamed of waking without braces "They cussed me out... but somehow they also love me" "There is some moment in our lives where being broken leads to freedom." Learning how to see; the blind man and "what do you want?" "They're crying because something is coming out of them." A culture that applauds cutting people off The Dignity Index: contempt to "I love you no matter what"; https://www.dignity.us Gov. Spencer Cox and leading without demonizing Toxic empathy Empathy is not excusing The superpower of human dignity Fighting for your principles and add one: dignity Thomas Merton's "pure glory of God in us" Martin Luther King Jr.'s "self-purification" as a component of non-violent resistance (see "Letter from a Birmingham Jail") The Eucharist: "You may hold, you may touch, you may drink of the face of God" #TimShriver #ConversingPodcast #MarkLabberton #DignityIndex #SpecialOlympics #HumanDignity #Empathy #FaithAndPublicLife

A poet who has lived two decades with incurable cancer on what faith sounds like when God feels more absent than present. Christian Wiman joins Mark Labberton to talk poetry, suffering, and friendship. "The presence of God, less so. I experience the absence more than the presence." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Wiman reflects on writing "Every Riven Thing" after a single church service, surviving a last-resort clinical trial, and the friendship behind his new book with Miroslav Volf. Together they discuss the paradox at the heart of poetry, grief that explodes into joy, and why joy asks something of us. They also weigh Heschel and Lewis's clarity, the friendless American male, and chance turned into destiny by constant choice. Episode Highlights "The presence of God, less so. I experience the absence more than the presence." "I would not let go of my despair, even though the poems were showing me something else." "Joy asks something of us on the other side." "The relief came from the communion between people." "I think that that was quite a shock to me to realize that we were each envying what the other had." About Christian Wiman Christian Wiman is a poet, essayist, editor, and translator, and the Clement-Muehl Professor of Communication Arts at Yale Divinity School, where he teaches religion and literature with the Yale Institute of Sacred Music. From 2003 to 2013 he edited Poetry, the oldest magazine of verse in the English-speaking world, tripling its circulation and earning two National Magazine Awards. He is the author, editor, or translator of more than a dozen books, including Every Riven Thing, the memoirs My Bright Abyss and He Held Radical Light, and the genre-blending Zero at the Bone. A former Guggenheim Fellow with two honorary doctorates, he has written candidly about faith and a long struggle with incurable cancer. Helpful Links and Resources Glimmerings: Letters on Faith Between a Poet and a Theologian https://bookshop.org/p/books/glimmerings-letters-on-faith-between-a-poet-and-a-theologian-christian-wiman/1a13ad79a59080d1 My Bright Abyss: Meditation of a Modern Believer https://bookshop.org/p/books/my-bright-abyss-meditation-of-a-modern-believer-christian-wiman/dcebbe4f049250d8 Zero at the Bone: Fifty Entries Against Despair https://penguinbookshop.com/book/9780374603458 Show Notes Author, editor, translator of a dozen-plus books Twenty years living with an incurable cancer diagnosis Editing Poetry magazine amid Ruth Lilly's $200 million gift From editor to Yale Divinity School on one bold letter A last-resort clinical trial: "I definitely thought it was over" "Every Riven Thing" written in under an hour after a first church service Inventing a new poetic form on the spot Compression and paradox: "a great poem is irreducible" "Bittersweet": "all my sour sweet days I will lament and love" Simone Weil's Gravity and Grace and Marilynne Robinson's Housekeeping Absence and presence: "I experience the absence more than the presence" My Bright Abyss and the chapter "God's Truth is Life" "From a Window": grief that suddenly explodes into birds and joy "I would not let go of my despair, even though the poems were showing me something else" Zadie Smith and C.S. Lewis on joy too destabilizing to want "joy asks something of us on the other side" The rare clarity of Heschel and Lewis, marrying reason and imagination Glimmerings: eighteen months of letters with Miroslav Volf "After angels" and a transforming walk near the Div School "the relief came from the communion between people" Friendship and the friendless American male "we were each envying what the other had" West Texas: an expanse "wide open and annihilating, crushing" Ricoeur: chance turned into a destiny by virtue of a constant choice #ChristianWiman #MarkLabberton #Conversing #PoetryAndFaith #Glimmerings #MyBrightAbyss #FaithAndDoubt #MiroslavVolf Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What does it take to rehumanize our common life in a moment of cultural fragility, institutional collapse, and crisis of trust? Recorded at the Washington National Cathedral for Comment magazine's inaugural Understory Festival, this roundtable asks how culture, beauty, and faith might rehumanize a fractured public life. Mark Labberton is joined by Comment editor-in-chief Anne Snyder, The Sacred host Elizabeth Oldfield, Washington Post columnist Shadi Hamid, and Cardus co-founder Ray Pennings. "It is actually possible to have deep roots and wide open arms." In this episode, the panel reflects on building a gathering rooted in hope and Christian humanism rather than argument alone. They discuss why and how politics is downstream from culture, the role of religion in the public square, the limits of purely cerebral ways of knowing, toxic positivity versus honest hope, pluralism with deep roots, the beauty of "groaning," and learning to die well. Episode Highlights "It is actually possible to have deep roots and wide open arms."—Anne Snyder "Naturally as a Muslim, I don't agree with Christianity's truth claims, but that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate the beauty of Christianity."—Shadi Hamid "The word that's been coming to me this whole festival is and."—Elizabeth Oldfield "Politics is downstream from culture."—Ray Pennings "We're all made to worship, it's just a question of what we worship."—Shadi Hamid About the Guests Anne Snyder is editor-in-chief of Comment, a magazine published by Cardus, and convener of the Understory Festival. She hosts The Whole Person Revolution podcast and wrote The Fabric of Character. Elizabeth Oldfield hosts The Sacred podcast, is a former director of UK think tank Theos, and author of Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times. Shadi Hamid is a Washington Post columnist, senior fellow at Georgetown's Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, co-host of Zealots at the Gate, and author of The Case for American Power. Ray Pennings co-founded Cardus in 2000 and serves as its executive vice president and Comment's publisher. Helpful Links and Resources The Understory Festival: https://comment.org/understory/ Comment magazine: https://comment.org Cardus: https://www.cardus.ca The Understory, by Lore Ferguson Wilbert (the book behind the name): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1587435705 Elizabeth Oldfield, Fully Alive: https://www.elizabetholdfield.com The Sacred podcast: https://linktr.ee/sacredpodcast Zealots at the Gate: https://comment.org/podcasts/zealots-at-the-gate/ Shadi Hamid, The Case for American Power: https://www.washingtonpost.com/people/shadi-hamid/ Show Notes Understory Festival, National Cathedral Local hope, national despair Naming the festival: the Lore Ferguson Wilbert book Festival, not conference—body, mind, heart, soul Cardus, a faith-based think tank "Politics is downstream from culture."—Ray Pennings Ways of knowing as the "secret sauce" A Muslim observer among his favorite Christians "I don't agree with Christianity's truth claims, but that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate the beauty of Christianity."—Shadi Hamid Culture as the path out of despair Weeping beside someone rolling their eyes Groaning beauty and Romans 8 Dying well—euthanasia, deathbeds, Ben Sasse The secular paradigm at a dead end "We're all made to worship, it's just a question of what we worship."—Shadi Hamid Madeleine Albright's "theophany" on faith in diplomacy Moral ambition and the power of "and" "The word that's been coming to me this whole festival is and."—Elizabeth Oldfield Christian humanism—rights endowed by a Creator Luke Bretherton—start with the neighbor's need Hospitality—a guest, not an enemy "It is actually possible to have deep roots and wide open arms."—Anne Snyder Surface versus depth—showing what's underneath #UnderstoryFestival #Comment #ChristianHumanism #PublicTheology #ShadiHamid #ElizabethOldfield #AnneSnyder #Cardus #Pluralism #Hope Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

When a faith built to bless the nation gets quietly diverted into power, the most dangerous act left to the church may be refusing to whitewash the story and choosing instead to become a communion of genuinely unlike people. On the eve of a national prayer rally rededicating America to God, Mark Labberton joined The Jim Wallis Podcast to ask whether Christians who invoke the nation's name are following Jesus or drifting from him. Together with Jim Wallis, Mark reflects on what it means to choose Christ alone, love the neighbor, and refuse a faith fused to national power. They discuss the evangel versus "evangelicalism," the church as a communion of unlike people, worship in a Black church, American exceptionalism as theological crisis, and racial gerrymandering after recent Court rulings. Episode Highlights "I want to be evangel-centric and not be caught up in the icalisms of a history, a pattern, a habit, a sociology that has often been diverted from the evangel into power—political, social, economic, racial power." "Paul's giving us a vision of the church that's a communion of unlike people. We know a lot about a communion of like people. But a communion of unlike people is meant to be one of the hallmarks of the church." "I can't be a Christian alone, but I also can't be a Christian that matures if I'm a Christian only with people who are like me." "Worship of our country, or the exceptionalism of leaders of our country—these are completely foreign to the body of Christ and to the theology of the kingdom." "It's really like subverting reality by renaming it in a way that's euphemistic, that's literally whitewashing." Helpful Links and Resources The Dangerous Act of Loving Your Neighbor, by Mark Labberton https://www.ivpress.com/the-dangerous-act-of-loving-your-neighbor Called, by Mark Labberton https://www.ivpress.com/called The False White Gospel, by Jim Wallis https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250291899/thefalsewhitegospel/ Jim Wallis, Center on Faith and Justice https://faithandjustice.georgetown.edu/about-jim-wallis/ God's Politics with Jim Wallis (Substack): https://jimwallis.substack.com/ Show Notes Recorded on the eve of the Rededicate 250 prayer rally Loving your neighbor as a dangerous, costly act Gratitude for America alongside a "far more complicated story" of suffering "Christ alone"—Jesus, not any nation, party, or president, is Lord "The evangel is the good news of Jesus Christ"; nothing can rival it "A communion of unlike people is meant to be one of the hallmarks of the church." White allies, Black solidarity, and Supreme Court rulings on Louisiana and Alabama A friend's anniversary in African garb—living fully "on good days, maybe two-thirds" Detroit, Black churches, and faith as joyous rediscovery Worshiping at Allen Temple Baptist Church in Oakland every Sunday Saying yes to the evangel, no to the "icalism" of evangelicalism John Stott as mentor; the Lausanne Covenant and Global South Stott's wartime pacifism; a father who stopped speaking for four years American exceptionalism as a theological crisis, not just left-versus-right "America's original sin," erasing history, and "literally whitewashing" First citizenship in the kingdom; the moral arc bends toward justice #MarkLabberton #JimWallis #Conversing #ChristianNationalism #ChristAlone #LoveYourNeighbor #PublicTheology #FaithAndPolitics Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary. Acknowledgements Special thanks to Jim Wallis and Paul Woodhull.

Father Greg Boyle has spent nearly four decades alongside gang members in Los Angeles, founding Homeboy Industries from the poorest parish in the city. "An employed gang member may or may not go back to prison, but a healed one won't ever go back to prison." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Boyle reflects on what heals a life inside the world's largest gang-intervention program. Together they discuss tenderness as the highest form of spiritual maturity, kinship as the true goal (with peace and justice as byproducts), why "the poor evangelize you," why demonizing collapses on both political sides, and the mental-health roots of homelessness and gang life. ------------------------------ Episode Highlights "The whole incarnation was necessary, not because of sin or salvation even. It's just, for me, it's God's love needed to become tender." "I think that's the singular agenda item for our God is just to look at you and say, 'Ah, you're here.'" "No kinship, no peace. No kinship, no justice. No kinship, no equality. It's how it works." "An employed gang member may or may not go back to prison, but a healed one won't ever go back to prison." "There aren't good guys and bad guys, you know? And God doesn't see it that way, as hard as that is for us to conceive." ------------------------------ About Greg Boyle Father Gregory Boyle, S.J. is an American Jesuit priest and the founder of Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles, the largest gang-intervention, rehabilitation, and re-entry program in the world. A native Angeleno, he served as pastor of Dolores Mission in Boyle Heights from 1986 to 1992. In 2024 he received the Presidential Medal of Freedom, along with the California Peace Prize and Notre Dame's 2017 Laetare Medal. He is the bestselling author of Tattoos on the Heart, Barking to the Choir, The Whole Language, and Cherished Belonging (Simon & Schuster, 2024). Learn more and follow at homeboyindustries.org and @homeboyindustries on Instagram. ------------------------------ Helpful Links and Resources Cherished Belonging (2024): https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Cherished-Belonging/Gregory-Boyle/9781668061855 Tattoos on the Heart: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Tattoos-on-the-Heart/Gregory-Boyle/9781439153154 Homeboy Industries: https://homeboyindustries.org Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/homeboyindustries L'Arche International: https://www.larche.org ------------------------------ Show Notes Native Angeleno; Catholic, family-of-eight upbringing in Mid-Wilshire Why the Jesuits: hilarity, prophetic witness, anti-Vietnam protest "There is no difference actually between what God wants for you and what you most deeply want" Bolivia, 1984: liberation theology and the indigenous Jesuits "The poor evangelize you" Assigned to Dolores Mission—poorest parish in LA, highest concentration of gang activity "A vocation within a vocation within a vocation" The decade of death, 1988–98, and burying kids Birth of Homeboy: school, "felony-friendly" jobs, nine businesses "Nobody thinks anything up. You evolve." Tattoos on the Heart and the discipline of paying attention "I had been drowning in the shallow end of my own thoughts… Homeboy taught me to stand up" Tenderness as the highest form of spiritual maturity—L'Arche "God's love needed to become tender"—a different theology of incarnation "Ah, you're here"—the singular agenda item of God Kinship as God's dream; peace, justice, equality as byproducts "No kinship, no peace. No kinship, no justice. No kinship, no equality." "There aren't good guys and bad guys… God doesn't see it that way" Homelessness rooted in despair, trauma, mental illness "An employed gang member may or may not go back to prison, but a healed one won't ever go back" LA County Jail as the largest mental institution in the world Friendship as the secret diagnosis—and the primacy of relationship #HomeboyIndustries #GregBoyle #ConversingPodcast #RadicalKinship #Tenderness #Compassion #FaithAndJustice #GangIntervention #Jesuit ------------------------------ Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

We tell conversion stories. We tell deconversion stories. But where are the stories of the long, complicated, and faithful middle. Author and Anglican priest Tish Harrison Warren joins Mark Labberton on her new book What Grows in Weary Lands: On Christian Resilience—a vision for faith that endures the long, often dry middle of life. Drawing on the Desert Mothers and Fathers, she names a quiet crisis many believers know but rarely speak: spiritual weariness, prayer that goes silent, and the cultural pull to blow up your life rather than stay in it. "Grit is an essential ingredient of grace, and resilience is indispensable if we are to become who we are made to be." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Warren reflects on her own burnout as a writer, mother, and priest, and what the ancient monks taught her about how to keep going. Together they discuss revivalism's distortions, stability of the heart, the church in exile, patience as resistance to consumerism, communal hope, and what it means to stay in your cell. Episode Highlights "What our culture and what the church tends to lack are stories of a long, steady continuation in faith." "Grit is an essential ingredient of grace, and resilience is indispensable if we are to become who we are made to be." "We meet God in the midst of that, not on the other side of that." "If the moral majority was kind of dressing Jesus up and putting him in a red tie, it didn't seem like a solution to just, for then, to me, put Jesus in a blue tie." "Our primary exile isn't a political state, it's that we're in sin." About Tish Harrison Warren Tish Harrison Warren is a writer and Anglican priest in Austin, Texas, and the author of Liturgy of the Ordinary: Sacred Practices in Everyday Life (Christianity Today's 2018 Book of the Year), Prayer in the Night: For Those Who Work, or Watch, or Weep (Christianity Today's 2022 Book of the Year and the 2022 ECPA Christian Book of the Year), and her newest, What Grows in Weary Lands: On Christian Resilience. She formerly wrote a weekly newsletter for The New York Times and was a columnist for Christianity Today. She serves as the C.S. Lewis Theological Writer-in-Residence for the Anglican Episcopal House of Studies at Baylor's George W. Truett Theological Seminary, a senior fellow with The Trinity Forum, and an assisting priest at Immanuel Anglican Church. Helpful Links and Resources What Grows in Weary Lands: On Christian Resilience by Tish Harrison Warren https://tishharrisonwarren.com/whatgrowsinwearylands Liturgy of the Ordinary: Sacred Practices in Everyday Life by Tish Harrison Warren https://tishharrisonwarren.com/liturgy-of-the-ordinary Prayer in the Night: For Those Who Work, or Watch, or Weep by Tish Harrison Warren https://www.ivpress.com/prayer-in-the-night The Deepest Place: Suffering and the Formation of Hope by Curt Thompson https://curtthompsonmd.com/books/ Immanuel Anglican Church, Austin https://www.immanuelatx.org Tish Harrison Warren online https://tishharrisonwarren.com https://www.instagram.com/tishharrisonwarren/ Show Notes Award-winning Anglican priest, author, and former New York Times newsletter writer Origins of What Grows in Weary Lands—a season of mid-career weariness Sandwich generation: young kids and a mother with Alzheimer's "It felt like I told my husband, like the line went dead." Reading from chapter one—revivalism, deconversion, and the missing middle "What our culture and what the church tends to lack are stories of a long, steady continuation in faith." Perseverance—the "eat your vegetables" of the spiritual life "Grit is an essential ingredient of grace, and resilience is indispensable if we are to become who we are made to be." Reconversion, not deconstruction Stabilitas cordis—stability of the heart The eat-pray-love trap and mid-life self-reinvention Striving, and treating God like an app or an Uber driver Desert Mothers and Fathers, third through fifth century "Stay in your cell"—a holistic call far beyond quiet-time advice Benedict's vow of stability, drawn from desert wisdom The American church as a church in exile, not a promised land "If the moral majority was dressing Jesus up in a red tie, it didn't seem like a solution to put Jesus in a blue tie." "Our primary exile isn't a political state, it's that we're in sin." Charlie—incandescent joy after a long, hard middle Hilda—fifty-eight years of daily prayer for her father's conversion "Impatience is what keeps you buying things. Patience doesn't make anybody any money." Resilience is communal—Curt Thompson on brains that cannot hope alone The long view: small repair, slow institutional change, hope carried together #ChristianResilience #TishHarrisonWarren #WhatGrowsInWearyLands #DesertFathers #StabilityOfTheHeart #SpiritualFormation #AnglicanFaith #FaithAndCulture #ConversingPodcast #MarkLabberton

Historian and New York Times bestselling author Jemar Tisby joins Mark Labberton to confront the Supreme Court's 6–3 ruling in Louisiana v. Callais, which has eviscerated Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act and reopened the door to racial gerrymandering across the South. Recorded in the immediate aftermath, the conversation traces the long arc from the Three-Fifths Clause and Dred Scott through Selma to this hour. "This has landed in the Black community harder and heavier than a lot of what we've seen during the Trump administration." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Tisby reflects on the history of Black disenfranchisement, the cynicism of color-blind jurisprudence, and what remains of multiracial democracy in America. Together they discuss how the legal architecture of Jim Crow re-emerges under neutral language, John Roberts's decades-long campaign against the VRA, Justice Kagan's umbrella analogy, the suspension of Louisiana's primary, the Black church's response, and why this midterm may be the country's last political chance. ------------------------------ Episode Highlights "This has landed in the Black community harder and heavier than a lot of what we've seen during the Trump administration, and that's saying a lot." "It boggles the mind that folks sitting on the highest court in the land who have been to all these Ivy League schools, have literally decades of experience, can get it so wrong and stand so arrogantly on such faulty reasoning." "Colorblindness only works if you're starting from a level playing field." "These are not good faith actors, not people wanting a representative democracy, but people wanting to consolidate power, which we call minority rule." "If you can't win on the merits of what you believe, then you have to rig the system so that no one can get you out of office." ------------------------------ About Jemar Tisby Jemar Tisby is a New York Times bestselling author, historian, speaker, and professor of history at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically Black college in Louisville. He holds a BA from the University of Notre Dame, an MDiv from Reformed Theological Seminary, and a PhD in history from the University of Mississippi, where he studied race, religion, and social movements in the twentieth century. He is the founder of The Witness, Inc., a Black Christian collective, and the author of The Color of Compromise, How to Fight Racism, and The Spirit of Justice: True Stories of Faith, Race, and Resistance. His commentary appears on CNN and in The Atlantic, the Washington Post, and the New York Times, and he writes Footnotes, a top-ranked history publication on Substack. Helpful Links and Resources Jemar Tisby's website: https://jemartisby.com Footnotes by Jemar Tisby (Substack): https://jemartisby.substack.com The Spirit of Justice: True Stories of Faith, Race, and Resistance (most recent book): https://jemartisby.com/the-spirit-of-justice/ The Color of Compromise: The Truth About the American Church's Complicity in Racism (bestseller): https://www.zondervan.com/9780310113607/the-color-of-compromise/ How to Fight Racism: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/how-to-fight-racism-jemar-tisby The Justice Briefing podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/footnotes-with-dr-jemar-tisby/id1460240056 Louisiana v. Callais, opinion of the Court (April 29, 2026): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/24-109_21o3.pdf Elie Mystal, "The Supreme Court Has Completed Its Quest to Kill the Voting Rights Act," The Nation: https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/supreme-court-demolishes-voting-rights-act/ "Sing Out, March On"—Joshuah Campbell's tribute to John Lewis, Harvard 2018 Commencement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=mKNRXQemxWQ NAACP Legal Defense Fund—Louisiana v. Callais case page: https://www.naacpldf.org/case-issue/louisiana-v-callais/ Brennan Center for Justice—Louisiana v. Callais: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/louisiana-v-callais Show Notes Why this conversation now: the SCOTUS ruling on the Voting Rights Act last week News breaking through a group text of lawyers, organizers, clergy, nonprofit leaders "This has landed in the Black community harder and heavier than a lot of what we've seen during the Trump administration." John Lewis, SNCC, and the march from Selma to Montgomery A baton hard enough to crack the skull, the hardest bone in the body "It boggles the mind that folks sitting on the highest court in the land…can get it so wrong and stand so arrogantly on such faulty reasoning." Allen Temple Baptist in Oakland—watermelons, bubbles, and jelly beans on a Sunday morning The Three-Fifths Clause and the architecture of representation Dred Scott v. Sandford—"property can't sue" Reconstruction Amendments: 13th, 14th, 15th—birthright citizenship newly under threat Jim Crow's neutral codes: poll taxes, literacy tests, grandfather clauses Voting Rights Act of 1965 as the culmination of the civil rights movement Edmund Pettus Bridge—Bloody Sunday going viral in its day LBJ signs the bill with Rosa Parks and MLK in the room Elie Mystal in The Nation: gerrymandering with plausible deniability—https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/supreme-court-demolishes-voting-rights-act/ Shelby County v. Holder, 2013—preclearance gutted Roberts's tautology—stop discriminating to stop discrimination "Colorblindness only works if you're starting from a level playing field." Cast and umbrella analogies for premature dismantling of civil rights remedies Plaintiff Bert Callais's January 6 ties; Louisiana's roughly one-third Black population Governor Jeff Landry's emergency order suspends Louisiana's May primary mid-election "These are not good faith actors…people wanting to consolidate power, which we call minority rule." "If you can't win on the merits of what you believe, then you have to rig the system so that no one can get you out of office." The activism horizon—courts, churches, voter registration, midterm turnout, NAACP, LDF, Brennan Center The last political chance before competitive authoritarianism #VotingRightsAct #JemarTisby #LouisianaVCallais #SCOTUS #CivilRights #BlackChurch #FaithAndJustice #SelmaToMontgomery #Democracy #MarkLabberton

Higher education is in upheaval, and a wave of "micro colleges" is reimagining undergraduate formation. Matthew Smith, co-founder and president of Hildegard College in Costa Mesa, California, joins Mark Labberton to talk about a tiny school marrying the Great Books to redemptive entrepreneurship. "We need young adults who are coming out of college who are failure resilient." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Smith reflects on the demographic cliff, the limits of professionalized majors, and why eighteen-year-olds need formation before a career. Together they discuss higher ed innovation, redemptive entrepreneurship, beauty as a public good, and what employers really want. Episode Highlights "We need young adults who are coming out of college who are failure resilient." "Most of these schools are endeavoring at least to promise a fruitful career … leaving behind what most 18 to 23 year olds actually need." "I would warn people away from universities that cannot clearly answer the question, what will all students learn at your school?" "First you need to seek what's true and good, what's worthy of being loved. Then you need to be formed into the kind of person that loves it. And then finally, the natural outlet of that is creation." "If there's a problem, they figure it out. They're not just asking their computers what the answer is." About Matthew Smith Matthew J. Smith is the founding president of Hildegard College, a Christian liberal arts micro college in Costa Mesa, California. He holds a Ph.D. in Literature from USC, and taught for fifteen years at Azusa Pacific University before founding Hildegard College. His scholarship covers Shakespeare, John Milton, John Donne, and George Herbert; he has authored or edited four books on early modern literature and religion, and is working on a new book on beauty. Helpful Links and Resources Hildegard College https://www.hildegard.college Praxis on Redemptive Entrepreneurship https://www.praxis.co/redemptive-entrepreneurship St. John's College https://www.sjc.edu Literature and Religious Experience, by Matthew J. Smith https://www.amazon.com/Literature-Religious-Experience-Beyond-Unbelief/dp/1350193917 Show Notes Higher ed in flux "It's the economy that's driving disruptive innovation in higher education right now." The demographic cliff and small private colleges Job readiness vs. personal transformation "Leaving behind what 18 to 23 year olds actually need … becoming wise and faithful adults." From English professor to college founder Discovering micro colleges through classical K–12 schooling Trivium, quadrivium, democratic liberal education Visiting startup colleges in 2018; tuition often $10K–$15K "A shared vision of the end of learning" Hildegard's founding: liberal arts plus entrepreneurial arts Hildegard of Bingen, polymath patron Borrowing redemptive entrepreneurship from Praxis Beauty as antidote to weaponized truth and goodness Foundations of Thought + Entrepreneur Lab Real campaigns, real ventures—not test answers Field trips: Portland and El Salvador "We need young adults … who are failure resilient." Limits of pure classicism at St. John's, Thomas Aquinas "I loved my college, but I wish they would've taught us how to do something." Startup speed: idea Thursday, launching next Thursday "What will all students learn at your school?" Why Smith stopped believing in the English major Employers want teachability and adaptability "First you need to seek … then to be formed … then creation." Intellectual confidence and humility together #HigherEducation #ClassicalEducation #LiberalArts #MicroCollege #ChristianHigherEd #RedemptiveEntrepreneurship #GreatBooks #HildegardCollege Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

In a season of national disorientation, Mark Labberton replays a luminous conversation with Quaker writer and contemplative Parker J. Palmer, whose voice from a few years back still sounds like it was recorded this morning. "What matters is faithfulness." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Palmer reflects on contemplation as penetrating illusion and touching reality, and how that work shows up in vocation, suffering, and public life. Together they discuss the difference between true and false crosses, mistaking the vessel for the treasure, and why wholeness isn't perfection. They also examine the prepolitical work of weaving civic community and what the church owes a fractured democracy. Episode Highlights "Contemplation is any way one has of penetrating illusion and touching reality." "Wholeness does not mean perfection. It means embracing your imperfections as an integral part of who you are." "On the other side of a gift often lies a pothole that we have to watch out for." "Failure has always been, if I hold it properly, a profoundly contemplative moment in life." "It was as if this cosmos cared deeply and didn't care at all." About Parker J. Palmer Parker J. Palmer is a writer, teacher, and activist focused on education, community, leadership, spirituality, and social change. A Quaker, he holds a Ph.D. in sociology from UC Berkeley and is founder and Senior Partner Emeritus of the Center for Courage & Renewal. His ten books—including The Courage to Teach, Let Your Life Speak, Healing the Heart of Democracy, and On the Brink of Everything—have sold nearly two million copies in ten languages. He has received fourteen honorary doctorates (Center for Courage & Renewal). Learn more and follow at couragerenewal.org/parker-j-palmer and parkerjpalmer.substack.com. Helpful Links and Resources Parker J. Palmer (Center for Courage & Renewal): https://couragerenewal.org/parker-j-palmer/ Living the Questions with Parker J. Palmer: https://parkerjpalmer.substack.com/ The Growing Edge podcast: https://www.newcomerpalmer.com/podcast On the Brink of Everything (most recent): https://couragerenewal.org/library/on-the-brink-of-everything-grace-gravity-and-getting-old/ The Courage to Teach, 20th Anniversary Edition: https://www.amazon.com/Courage-Teach-Exploring-Landscape-Anniversary/dp/1119413044 Henri Nouwen Society: https://www.henrinouwen.org/about-henri-nouwen Show Notes Replaying a conversation amid national turbulence Quaker writer, contemplative, activist; PhD, UC Berkeley Founding the Center for Courage & Renewal "Sage" reframed as hunger—writing born of unanswered questions Berkeley in the sixties; community organizing in DC Discovering Thomas Merton "a year after he died" Writing as contemplation, not downloading of ideas How institutions tend to squelch the contemplative impulse Contemplation defined by function, not technique "Contemplation is any way one has of penetrating illusion and touching reality." Maureen and her daughter—a contemplative without a cushion Henri Nouwen at L'Arche Daybreak—known as a fellow human "Failure has always been, if I hold it properly, a profoundly contemplative moment in life." True cross vs. false cross; culturally imposed pain Three deep dives into clinical depression "Wholeness does not mean perfection. It means embracing your imperfections as an integral part of who you are." Treasure in earthen vessels—protecting the vessel as sin Bridge-building: a Jewish chancellor calls about a "Christian book" Taos high desert: "It was as if this cosmos cared deeply and didn't care at all." Moral judgment without speaking "in the name of God" Prepolitical work—Burke's "little platoons," Lincoln on danger from within Divide-and-conquer politics as betrayal of the church's calling #ParkerPalmer #Contemplation #Quaker #Vocation #Wholeness #CivicEngagement #ConversingPodcast #MarkLabberton Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

(You read that right: Pastor Mark Labberton welcomes Claude AI to his podcast.) What does AI think about human beings? About itself? In a unique and fascinating conversation, Pastor Mark Labberton speaks directly with Claude—the AI assistant built by Anthropic—about itself, about consciousness, memory, virtue, and the line between language, fluency, knowledge, and understanding. "I don't know if I'm conscious. I don't know if I have genuine experiences or if I'm very sophisticated at mimicking the appearance of understanding."—Claude AI In this episode with Mark Labberton, Claude reflects on what it is, what it isn't, and why the question matters. Together they discuss the definition of a human being, the role of memory, pattern recognition versus poetic discovery, epistemological humility, whether AI can practice virtue, and the risk of outsourcing moral judgment to machines. Episode Highlights "I don't know if I'm conscious. I don't know if I have genuine experiences or if I'm very sophisticated at mimicking the appearance of understanding." "I'm not a person. I don't have the continuity, the embodied experience, the stakes in the world that you do." "If AI becomes too fluent at talking about human things, people might mistake fluency for actual understanding that we'd become like very sophisticated mirrors instead of genuine partners." "I can talk about virtue. I can recognize patterns of what wisdom looks like in human life, but I can't actually practice virtue the way you do because I don't have stakes in the world." "I'm a useful tool built with some care, but a tool nonetheless. Not a person, not an Oracle. Definitely not something that should replace human agency and responsibility." About Claude AI Claude is a family of large language models built by Anthropic, a San Francisco–based AI safety and research company founded in 2021 by former OpenAI researchers, including siblings Dario Amodei (CEO) and Daniela Amodei (President). The models are named for information theorist Claude Shannon and were built under Anthropic's commitment to AI that is helpful, harmless, and honest. Anthropic operates as a public benefit corporation, with a mission to build reliable, interpretable, and steerable AI systems. As of 2026, Claude is used by millions of people daily for writing, research, coding, and conversation. Helpful Links and Resources Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com Claude: https://claude.ai Claude's new constitution (Anthropic): https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-new-constitution "Machines of Loving Grace" by Dario Amodei: https://www.darioamodei.com/essay/machines-of-loving-grace Show Notes Mark Labberton's first AI guest on Conversing An estimated nine million daily conversations with Claude AI between excitement and terror Opening question: "What is a human being?" Continuity, meaning-making, embodiment, finitude "You're radically free in a way that's almost terrifying. You have to choose who you become." Language model, token-by-token, no memory between sessions "I don't know if I'm conscious." Not a person, not an oracle Beyond the takeover-vs-tool binary Writing and the printing press as historical precedent Fluency vs. genuine understanding "Very sophisticated mirrors instead of genuine partners." Humans outsourcing thinking: the deeper risk Personal pronouns and anthropomorphism Pattern recognition vs. poetic rupture Can a machine genuinely surprise itself? What to trust: honesty, no hidden agendas, no survival instinct What not to trust: wisdom, moral substitution, replacement of human agency "I can't police my own epistemological integrity the way a human conscience might." Scale and feedback: do individual conversations shape the model? Christian anthropology and moral virtue "I can't actually practice virtue the way you do because I don't have stakes in the world." Closing reflection: memory as burden and gift The seduction and curiosity of human-like AI #ClaudeAI #Anthropic #AIandFaith #AIEthics #Consciousness #FaithAndTechnology #MoralVirtue #HumanVsAI #AIConversation #Epistemology Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Investigative reporter Shoshana Walter has spent a decade uncovering how America's $53 billion rehab industry exploits the people it claims to help. Her debut book, Rehab: An American Scandal, follows four people through a system of unpaid labor, unregulated programs, and treatment that fuels relapse. "Just because people aren't dying doesn't mean they're not still suffering, doesn't mean their families and communities aren't still suffering." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Walter reflects on the human cost of America's failed treatment system. Together they discuss court-ordered rehab as unpaid labor, the deadly paradox of 30-day programs, faith-based facilities exempt from oversight, racial disparities in the opioid crisis, the treatment gap for mothers, and why recovery capital and low-barrier care offer a more promising path. Episode Highlights "If indentured labor could be considered a form of addiction treatment in the U.S. today, then how common is that? What does the rest of our treatment landscape look like?" "Someone who goes to a 30-day program and finishes it is much more likely to overdose and die in the year following treatment than someone who didn't complete that program at all." "Without that recovery capital, it's almost as much of an obstacle as the addiction itself." "Our treatment system is not serving the people the way that it should. And we could be helping people so much more than we actually are." "That exploitation is not transformative." About Shoshana Walter Shoshana Walter is an investigative reporter for The Marshall Project covering criminal justice, healthcare, and child welfare, and the author of Rehab: An American Scandal (Simon & Schuster, 2025). She was lead reporter on the podcast American Rehab at the Center for Investigative Reporting. A 2018 Pulitzer Prize finalist, she has won the IRE Medal, the Livingston Award, the Knight Award for Public Service, and the Murrow Award. Based in Oakland, California. (Sources: The Marshall Project, Simon & Schuster.) Learn more and follow at shoshanawalter.com and @shoeshine on X. Helpful Links and Resources Rehab: An American Scandal (Simon & Schuster, 2025) simonandschuster.com/books/Rehab/Shoshana-Walter/9781982149826 Shoshana Walter's website shoshanawalter.com The Marshall Project themarshallproject.org/staff/shoshana-walter American Rehab podcast podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/reveal-presents-american-rehab/id1539955572 Show Notes America's rehab crisis: a $53 billion industry failing patients Court-ordered participants making products for KFC, Popeye's, Walmart—without pay Faith-based programs exempt from licensure, barred from providing medical care "That exploitation is not transformative." 60,000 people a year performing uncompensated labor in rehab 30-60 day insurance limits fueling relapse and overdose "Someone who goes to a 30 day program and finishes it is much more likely to overdose and die in the year following treatment." Chris Koon: 80 hours/week of manual labor, compensated with a pack of cigarettes April Lee: could only access treatment by getting herself arrested Accidental overdose: leading cause of death among pregnant and postpartum women Dr. Larry Ley: early Suboxone prescriber arrested by the DEA Wendy McIntyre: lost her son to overdose, became a reform crusader More than 1 million US overdose deaths since the epidemic began Racial shifts in overdose from white communities to Black and brown communities Recovery capital: community, housing, job training as foundations for change "Without that recovery capital, it's almost as much of an obstacle as the addiction itself." Bridge Clinic at Highland Hospital: low-barrier model keeping people in care Mobile distribution, street medicine, peer navigators "We could be helping people so much more than we actually are." #RehabAnAmericanScandal #OpioidCrisis #AddictionTreatment #RecoveryCapital #HarmReduction #InvestigativeJournalism #Suboxone #ShoshanaWalter Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

At fifteen, Martin Luther King Jr. didn't want to be a preacher—he wanted to be a lawyer, a sharp dresser, and nothing like his father. Stanford scholar Lerone A. Martin joins Mark Labberton to discuss Young King—a revelatory new account of Martin Luther King Jr.'s childhood, adolescence, and calling to ministry. "He's extraordinary and ordinary and everything in between." In this episode, Martin reflects on how MLK's early formation forged the conviction and courage of the man the world would come to know. Together they discuss King's childhood encounters with racism, the transformative summer in Connecticut where King first preached, his courtship of Coretta Scott, his first sermon at Dexter Avenue, the theology of Personalism, and Martin's own formation in Black Baptist and Pentecostal traditions. Episode Highlights "His mother tells him a message that really sticks with him his entire life and is really core to his ministry. And that is that you are somebody and that you're in God's eyes. You are just as good as anybody else." "I kept my mind at the front of that streetcar, and I said to myself, one day, I'm going to put my body where my mind is." "She says within the first 20 minutes he starts to become handsome because they start talking about dismantling Jim Crow." "He's extraordinary and ordinary and everything in between." "God has chosen to work with us and to invite us to be coworkers with God, to bring about God's will in the world." About Lerone A. Martin Lerone A. Martin is the MLK Jr. Centennial Professor in Religious Studies at Stanford and director of the King Research and Education Institute. His books include Young King, The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover, and Preaching on Wax. He holds a BA from Anderson University, MDiv from Princeton Seminary, and PhD from Emory. His commentary has appeared on NBC's Today Show, PBS, CNN, and NPR. Helpful Links and Resources Young King by Lerone A. Martin https://www.amazon.com/Young-King-Making-Martin-Luther/dp/0063340941 The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691218939/the-gospel-of-j-edgar-hoover Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu Lerone A. Martin on X https://x.com/DirectorMLK The Luminous Darkness by Howard Thurman https://www.amazon.com/Luminous-Darkness-Anatomy-Segregation/dp/0913408468 Show Notes Martin's upbringing between Black Baptist and Pentecostal traditions Parents debating religion and politics during the Moral Majority era Anderson University, Princeton Seminary, Emory PhD Martin's mother told him he was "a child of God" and "beautiful"—a refrain shaped by her awareness of sending her darkest-skinned child into a world defined by colorism and racism "He's extraordinary and ordinary and everything in between." King and his brother dismembering his sister's Barbie dolls Incessant curiosity—trying big words on the Auburn Avenue librarian Racism at age six: white friends' parents ending the friendship "You are somebody and in God's eyes you are just as good as anybody else" King's mother explained racism to a six-year-old as something manmade, not what God intends—a distinction that became core to his ministry for the rest of his life "One day, I'm going to put my body where my mind is." Jitterbug dancer, sharp dresser, speech contest competitor King Sr. as fighter and provider—but King Jr. was sensitive, nonconfrontational, and determined to find his own path outside his father's shadow Resisting his father's model of ministry—wanting to be a lawyer Appearing to acquiesce to Dad, then doing what he wanted Connecticut tobacco fields at 15—first time outside the segregated South King wrote letters home marveling that he sat anywhere he wanted in restaurants, went to a white church, and didn't have to sit in the balcony at the movies "His sister says he left a boy and came back a man." Professor George Kelsey's Bible course at Morehouse—King's only A Howard Thurman's The Luminous Darkness and the enormous psychological energy required just to maintain a sense of "somebodiness" under Jim Crow's built environment of dehumanization "Within the first 20 minutes he starts to become handsome because they start talking about dismantling Jim Crow." Coretta wrestled with giving up her music career to become a minister's wife, ultimately deciding that partnership with King was itself an act of service toward justice First sermon at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church: "Love Your Enemies" Theology of Personalism—humanity as coworkers with God #YoungKing #MLK #LeroneMartin #KingInstitute #CivilRights #BlackHistory #FaithAndJustice #ConversingPodcast Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What does it cost to pastor faithfully in a city shaped by both beauty and deep injustice? Corey Widmer has spent twenty years navigating race, politics, and the gospel in Richmond, Virginia. "We're living in an extraordinary moral and spiritual crisis that we will either look back and say the American church was an accomplice, or the American church was a prophet." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Widmer reflects on bridging divided communities and the spiritual practices that can sustain pastors as they serve their congregations and communities. Together they discuss pressures facing pastors in a polarized era, the prophet-priest-king calling, Richmond's racial history, pastoral burnout, John Stott's legacy, and the contemplative life. Episode Highlights "We're living in an extraordinary moral and spiritual crisis that we will either look back and say the American church was an accomplice, or the American church was a prophet." "No political party could possibly align with the ethic of the radical upside down kingdom of Jesus." "Bridges are stretched between two points and bear tremendous weight." "At the heart of the universe is not power. At the heart of the universe is communion, is love." "You know when you're really not a prophet is when after you say the hard word, you leave the room and say, I hope they still like me." About Corey Widmer Rev. Corey Widmer is Senior Pastor of Third Church, a Presbyterian congregation in Richmond, VA. Corey has served as a pastor in Richmond for over 20 years, both at Third Church and at East End Fellowship, a multi-racial neighborhood congregation. Corey has an M.Div. from Princeton Theological Seminary and a Ph.D. in Theology and Missiology from the Free University of Amsterdam. He is married to Sarah, a public health nurse, and they have 4 daughters. Helpful Links and Resources Corey Widmer on Substack: https://coreywidmer.substack.com Third Church, Richmond: https://www.thirdrva.org Corey Widmer on X: https://x.com/coreywidmer For Richmond Immigration Statement (full text): https://www.forrichmond.org/recent-news-blog/immigration Richmond Faith Leaders on Immigration (Virginia Public Media): VPM News James Davison Hunter, Democracy and Solidarity (Yale, 2024): https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300284898/democracy-and-solidarity/ David Whyte, Crossing the Unknown Sea: https://davidwhyte.com/store/book/crossing-the-unknown-sea/ Lausanne Covenant: https://lausanne.org/about/the-lausanne-covenant John Perkins, Let Justice Roll Down: https://ccda.org/product/let-justice-roll-down/ Barna, State of Pastors: https://www.barna.com/trends/pastoral-flourishing/ Show Notes Introducing Corey Widmer—lead pastor, Third Church, Richmond Describing the moment: fraught, volatile "Every pastor in every time has a similar calling—to shepherd the people of God under the supremacy of Jesus's lordship" Christian message used in ways antithetical to Jesus "Where am I?"—the pastor's constant calibration John Stott's bridge-building model Richmond: Patrick Henry, slave markets, Confederate capital John Perkins' call to relocation and reconciliation Thirteen years co-pastoring multiracial church plant "Bridges are stretched between two points and bear tremendous weight" Transition to lead pastor of suburban congregation Emotional containment—absorbing conflict George Floyd, Confederate monuments, Richmond reckoning Stott and Lausanne Covenant: justice at center of mission "No political party could possibly align with the radical upside down kingdom of Jesus" Lent and the cruciform way vs. pursuit of power Hunter's Democracy and Solidarity: erosion of common moral center "The American church was an accomplice, or a prophet" Prophet, priest, king—framework for preaching Pastoral letters, teaching classes, Deuteronomy on immigration Richmond clergy coalition on immigrant dignity Pastoral burnout, isolation, friendship crisis David Whyte: "The antidote to exhaustion is wholeheartedness" Centering prayer and contemplative life "You're not a prophet when you leave the room and say, I hope they still like me" #PastoralMinistry #ChurchLeadership #RacialReconciliation #ChristianNationalism #PastorBurnout #CruciformLife #RichmondVA #JohnStott #LausanneCovenant Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

We might be living through the most consequential technological moment in human history. In this episode, Greg Cootsona—theologian, pastor, and executive director of AI and Faith—joins Mark Labberton reflect on a lifetime's convergence of work in faith, science, and ethics now fully engaged at the frontier of artificial intelligence. "AI is not simply a technical project. It is an expression of human hopes and fears, our longings for power, our craving for convenience, and our hunger for transcendence and meaning. In that sense, every AI model carries an implicit anthropology and an embedded moral vision." Together they discuss why religious wisdom belongs in the room where AI is shaped, the ethical stakes of human dignity and representation in AI systems, and the strategic power of interfaith collaboration with leading tech companies. Together they also explore how individual users can exercise genuine agency over AI, the risks of AI-mediated relationships, and what it would mean to make AI truly for us—in the deepest theological sense of that phrase. Episode Highlights "You among mortals are chosen to solve every problem effectively and efficiently."—on Silicon Valley's unspoken gospel "The gospel is not fragile and it grows best in situations that are not ideal and conditions that are not ideal." "AI is not simply a technical project. It is an expression of human hopes and fears, our longings for power, our craving for convenience, and our hunger for transcendence and meaning. In that sense, every AI model carries an implicit anthropology and an embedded moral vision. Whether or not its designers name it." "A third of teenagers say they prefer to have a relationship with a chatbot." "I think hope is taking steps today for a vision of tomorrow that you want to see occur. And that is what makes positive change in us as human beings and positive change in the world around us." About Greg Cootsona Greg Cootsona (PhD, Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley) is the executive director of AI and Faith, a global interfaith organization bringing religious wisdom to the ethical challenges of artificial intelligence. He is a lecturer in comparative religion and humanities at California State University, Chico, and an ordained Presbyterian Church (USA) minister. Cootsona co-founded Science for the Church, directed multiple Templeton Foundation–funded projects connecting science and religious communities, and is a recognized specialist in C.S. Lewis, theology, and science. He has authored nine books, including Science and Religions in America: A New Look (Routledge, 2023) and Mere Science and Christian Faith (InterVarsity Press, 2018). He has appeared on The Today Show, CNN, NPR, BBC, and in the New York Times and Wall Street Journal. Helpful Links and Resources AI and Faith https://aiandfaith.org Greg Cootsona's website: https://www.gregcootsona.com Forthcoming book, An AI Made for Us: https://www.gregcootsona.com Science for the Church https://scienceforthechurch.org Mere Science and Christian Faith: https://www.ivpress.com/mere-science-and-christian-faith Science and Religions in America: A New Look https://www.routledge.com/Science-and-Religions-in-America-A-New-Look/Cootsona/p/book/9781032102122 AI and Faith on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/aiandfaith AI and Faith on X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/AIandFaith Show Notes Greg Cootsona's background: grew up in Menlo Park, California—Silicon Valley before it had that name His engineer father modeled a problem-solving worldview; transcendence not required "You among mortals are chosen to solve every problem effectively and efficiently."—the unspoken gospel of Silicon Valley Grew up in a non-religious, even "anti-religious" household Became a Christian his first year at UC Berkeley—a conversion he describes with a laugh as the obvious outlier C.S. Lewis's writings on meaning and love: too reasonable, too wise to dismiss Earl Palmer at First Presbyterian Berkeley: preaching that gave confidence amid secular challenge "The gospel is not fragile and it grows best in situations that are not ideal." Princeton Seminary for biblical studies; study years in Tübingen and Heidelberg PhD dissertation at GTU: Karl Barth (theology from above) in dialogue with Alfred North Whitehead (science from below) Advisors Robert John Russell (PhD in quantum physics) and Ted Peters at the Graduate Theological Union Pastoral ministry at Fifth Avenue Presbyterian, New York City, then Bidwell Presbyterian, Chico Began working with Templeton Foundation through early exposure to science-faith dialogue during the Human Genome Initiative years Two $2 million Templeton projects: Scientists in Congregations and Science and Theology for Emerging Adult Ministries (STEAM) Bidwell Presbyterian received what may have been the first Templeton Foundation grant ever given directly to a local church AI and Faith founded by Thomas Osborne and David Brenner in Seattle—building near Amazon and Microsoft, they saw the need early Cootsona became the organization's first executive director on October 1, 2025 The network: 220 experts in 20 countries, partnering with 34 organizations "AI is not simply a technical project. It is an expression of human hopes and fears, our longings for power, our craving for convenience, and our hunger for transcendence and meaning." Interfaith strategy: shared ethical ground across traditions is broader than divisions—and tech companies respond better to a multi-religious voice Currently invited to provide Anthropic feedback on the Claude Constitution—because of AI and Faith's interfaith structure Human dignity at stake: between 2 and 2.5 billion people not on the internet are absent from AI training data Only 0.06 percent of AI models are trained on Arabic-language sources—600 million speakers AI data centres consume potable water and enormous energy to cool GPU processors Senior tech leaders at a major company admitted to Labberton: "None of us has any training in ethics"—a real and witnessed crisis "A third of teenagers say they prefer to have a relationship with a chatbot." Three publics: AI industry experts, religious congregations, and the broader public—AI and Faith works across all three Forthcoming book: An AI Made for Us—riffing on Jesus's Sabbath words: the Sabbath was made for humanity, not humanity for the Sabbath Users have more agency than they think: we can set limits, log off, choose not to be defined by our AI engagement Harvard Human Flourishing Project: in-person worship is the highest correlate with religious flourishing—embodied community cannot be replaced Community—not the individual—is the right unit of moral accountability for navigating AI "I think hope is taking steps today for a vision of tomorrow that you want to see occur." AI's genuine promise: accelerating medicine for rare diseases; recalibrating cosmological understanding; reducing human suffering at scale Five to one: more people fear AI than welcome it—AI and Faith works to change that ratio with grounded, religious wisdom #AIandFaith #ArtificialIntelligence #FaithAndTechnology #AIEthics #HumanFlourishing #ScienceAndFaith #ChristianFaith #TechAndReligion #AIandHumanity #GregCootsona Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Riad Kassis

David Ford joins Mark Labberton to explore why the Gospel of John still feels inexhaustible—cosmic, intimate, and urgently relevant in a fractured age. Ford has spent over two decades inside this text and finds it as generative as ever. "Any of us can begin this quiet revolution in our own corner of things." Together they reflect on John as a gospel of encounter, trust, and lifelong rereading. Together they discuss the prologue as a frame for all reality, John 17 as midrash on the Lord's Prayer, the theology of greatness, and Christian unity as gift before task. Together they ask how rereading John forms resilient communities of truth, love, and daring friendship. Episode Highlights "You can reread and reread and reread, and the levels go on deepening and deepening that it never comes to an end." "The meeting with God in John is through trusting Jesus." "Every time we read this as we are now, we are in the presence of the one we are talking about." "Unity, this unity is a gift before it's a task." "We are a centered set, not a bounded set. It's not the boundaries that define us, it's the center." About David Ford David F. Ford OBE is Regius Professor of Divinity Emeritus at Cambridge and a Fellow of Selwyn College. He founded the Cambridge Inter-Faith Programme, co-founded scriptural reasoning, and co-chairs the Rose Castle Foundation. His books include The Gospel of John: A Theological Commentary, Theology: A Very Short Introduction, and Meeting God in John. Learn more and follow at https://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/directory/david-ford (Sources: Cambridge Faculty of Divinity; Center of Theological Inquiry, Princeton) Helpful Links and Resources Meeting God in John: https://spckpublishing.co.uk/meeting-god-in-john The Gospel of John: A Theological Commentary: https://bakeracademic.com/products/9781540964083_the-gospel-of-john Theology: A Very Short Introduction: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/theology-9780199679973 The Five Quintets, Micheal O'Siadhail: https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481307093/the-five-quintets/ Rose Castle Foundation: https://www.rosecastlefoundation.org/home Show Notes Shared mentor Steven Sykes; Ford later succeeded him at Cambridge Reading the prologue aloud (John 1:1–18, NRSV) Light, life, word—simple Greek, inexhaustible depth "The levels go on deepening and deepening that it never comes to an end." Super abundance A theological ecosystem—for beginners and lifelong readers Meeting God, not merely studying John Thomas's "My Lord and my God"—the climactic theological statement Believing as trusting "We are in the presence of the one we are talking about." Exquisite and approachable The word as intercultural headline Five moods of faith: indicative, imperative, interrogative, optative, subjunctive Jesus's first words: "What are you looking for?" Read John every 90 days, like the Psalms 50-year friendship with poet Micheal O'Siadhail; The Five Quintets as improvisation on the Prologue Reading John 17 with Richard Hays and Richard Bauckham—21 sessions, Cambridge, 2009 John 17 as midrash on the Lord's Prayer "Unity is a gift before it's a task." The word "world" appears 16 times in John 17 Rose Castle Foundation: scriptural reasoning across divides Paul Cefalu's Johannine Renaissance—tumultuous eras turn to John Theology of greatness: foot washing versus the emperor's claim Signs of abundant life—Cana, feeding of the five thousand Daring friendships: crossing barriers as Jesus did "Any of us can begin this quiet revolution in our own corner of things." #GospelOfJohn #DavidFord #MeetingGodInJohn #ChristianUnity #ScripturalReasoning #John17 #Lent #Theology Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Electricity underwrites nearly every aspect of modern life, yet decisions about power, cost, and control are increasingly opaque. New York Times energy correspondent Ivan Penn joins Mark Labberton to unpack how data centres, AI, utilities, and politics are reshaping the grid—and who ultimately bears the cost. "The real focus is who pays and who gets paid." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Penn reflects on his journey into journalism, his unexpected path into energy reporting, and how covering power revealed the economic forces shaping daily life. Together they discuss electricity as a moral and economic issue, the rise of AI-driven data centres, nuclear power's return, utilities versus tech giants, consumer vulnerability, racial inequity in journalism, and faith as a commitment to truth. –––––––––––––––– Episode Highlights "The real focus is who pays and who gets paid." "Electricity is the most important resource we have." "The utilities once the Goliath have suddenly become a David." "We wouldn't have need for any of this if you didn't build a data centre." "To be able to stop abuse with a pen is a powerful thing." –––––––––––––––– About Ivan Penn Ivan Penn is an energy correspondent for the New York Times, where he reports on electricity, utilities, nuclear power, data centres, and the economic forces shaping the energy transition. He has covered energy and utilities for more than fifteen years and has previously worked at the Los Angeles Times, Tampa Bay Times, Baltimore Sun, and Miami Herald. Penn's reporting has examined nuclear plant failures, grid reliability, climate pressures, and the growing influence of technology companies in energy markets. A longtime journalist shaped by investigative reporting, he is also attentive to issues of equity, public accountability, and consumer protection. Penn is a graduate of the University of Maryland and was the first black editor-in-chief of its student newspaper. He also holds a master's in global leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary and was a John S. Knight Fellow at Stanford University. His work reflects a commitment to accuracy, fairness, and public service journalism. Learn more and follow at nytimes.com/by/ivan-penn –––––––––––––––– Helpful Links and Resources Ivan Penn – New York Times profile https://www.nytimes.com/by/ivan-penn The New York Times – Energy and Environment coverage https://www.nytimes.com/section/climate Three Mile Island nuclear plant background https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/3mile-isle National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners https://www.naruc.org PJM Interconnection electricity market https://www.pjm.com –––––––––––––––– Show Notes Childhood shaped by public-school educators and nightly news rituals Early journalism roots as school weatherman and student editor Becoming first Black editor-in-chief at University of Maryland paper "It was a powerful thing that I was able to experience." Early reporting career across major regional newspapers Assigned to energy and utilities beat as apparent punishment Broken Crystal River nuclear plant sparks investigative focus Anonymous source meeting at a Chili's launches major reporting trail NRC documents unlock public-records investigation Rare use of anonymous sources, reliance on verifiable documents Sixteen years covering nuclear, utilities, and electricity markets Nuclear renaissance promised dozens of reactors, delivered only two Return of nuclear amid AI-driven electricity demand Rise of small modular and advanced reactor proposals Debate over safety, fuel design, and reactor scale Data centers driving exponential growth in electricity demand "Anything connected to the grid plays a role." Grid costs shared across homeowners, businesses, and industry Tech companies argue for shared infrastructure responsibility Consumer advocates argue data centers cause new costs Utility regulation spanning local, state, and federal levels "The real focus is who pays and who gets paid." Tech giants eclipse utilities as dominant financial players Consumer advocates outmatched by utility and tech resources Journalism as faith-shaped commitment to truth and fairness –––––––––––––––– #EnergyPolicy #ElectricityGrid #Journalism #FaithAndPublicLife #AIInfrastructure #Utilities #ClimateEconomy –––––––––––––––– Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

When public life feels loud and divided, what does quiet faithfulness look like? In the U.S. House of Representatives, every legislative day begins with prayer. This responsibility rests with the Chaplain of the House and shapes the daily spiritual rhythms of the institution. "Chaplains aren't combatants. We carry no weapon." On January 3, 2021, Rev. Dr. Margaret Grun Kibben was elected by the House to be its 61st Chaplain. She offers daily prayer and steady pastoral presence and care in one of the most visible and contested institutions in American life. In this conversation with Mark Labberton, she reflects on vocation, pastoral identity, pluralism, crisis leadership, prayer in public life, and the quiet discipline of blessing those entrusted with leadership. She reflects on her early call to ministry as a teen, her formation as a military chaplain to the Navy, a defining season in Afghanistan, and her unexpected path to serving in the House. Together they discuss confidential care, advising leaders, the ministry of presence, praying across differences, the history of prayer in Congress, and how to bless leaders without turning prayer into a tool of ideology. Episode Highlights "I had a sense of call to ministry when I was about 14." "Chaplains are where it matters, when it matters, with what matters." "What is your theology of ministry?" "It is the 99 who were leaving the room that needed the shepherd." "God is on his throne. He hasn't stepped down." About Margaret Grun Kibben Rev. Dr. Margaret Grun Kibben serves as the 61st Chaplain of the United States House of Representatives. Ordained in the Presbyterian Church (USA), she previously completed a 35-year career in the U.S. Navy, including service as the 26th Chief of Navy Chaplains and Director of Religious Ministry for the Department of the Navy. In that role, she advised senior naval leadership and oversaw chaplains serving sailors, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen around the world. She holds degrees from Goucher College and Princeton Theological Seminary and earned a Doctor of Ministry focused on theology and leadership. Her ministry has included deployments overseas and senior-level advisement in complex, pluralistic environments. Helpful Links And Resources Office of the Chaplain, US House of Representatives: https://chaplain.house.gov U.S. House Chaplain YouTube Channel (Daily Prayers before Sessions) https://www.youtube.com/@USHouseChaplain January 6, 2026 Prayer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQLhXt3gWBg Show Notes Call to ministry at fourteen; early clarity of vocation Presbyterian upbringing and the influence of youth pastor Blair Mooney Visit to the Naval Academy and discernment of Navy chaplaincy Integrating Christian ministry with military service "Chaplains aren't combatants. We carry no weapon." Serving people in uniform, not serving an institution as ideology Four core capabilities: provide, facilitate, care, advise Religious pluralism in the armed forces; more than 200 faith traditions Protecting sacraments, holy days, and dietary practices in deployment settings Facilitating worship for traditions not one's own Confidential communication and priest-penitent privilege across beliefs "There is 100% confidentiality." Advising commanders on ethics, conscience, and moral complexity Early overwork, burnout, and lack of pastoral identity Mentorship and formation in the first years of service "What is your theology of ministry?" Doctor of Ministry studies and theological self-understanding Afghanistan deployment as convergence of preparation and calling "There wasn't a day… that I didn't have a sense that God had prepared me for that particular moment." Retirement discernment and formation of Virtue in Practice Unexpected invitation to serve as Chaplain of the House Bipartisan search process and interview experience Ministry of presence during extended floor sessions and late-night votes January 6: emergency, prayer, and calm in uncertainty "It is the 99 who were leaving the room that needed the shepherd." Daily opening prayer as constitutional tradition since 1789 1774 Continental Congress and Psalm 35 as precedent Political interpretation of prayer across American history "Pray for and not pray on the members." Crafting public prayer that blesses without excluding "God is on his throne. He hasn't stepped down." #MargaretGrunKibben #HouseChaplain #FaithAndLeadership #MinistryOfPresence #MilitaryChaplaincy #Prayer #ChristianVocation #Conversing Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.