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Podcast
Gospelbound
209
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Gospelbound, hosted by Collin Hansen for The Gospel Coalition, is a podcast for those searching for firm faith in an anxious age. Each week, Collin talks with insightful guests about books, ideas, and how to navigate life by the gospel of Jesus Christ in a post-Christian culture.
Gospelbound, hosted by Collin Hansen for The Gospel Coalition, is a podcast for those searching for firm faith in an anxious age. Each week, Collin talks with insightful guests about books, ideas, and how to navigate life by the gospel of Jesus Christ in a post-Christian culture.
How to Save Western Civilization with Allen Guelzo
Episode in
Gospelbound
Is there a fate worse than condemnation?
Yes, say Allen Guelzo and James Hankins in their new textbook, The Golden Thread: A History of the Western Tradition: Volume II: The Modern and Contemporary West. Worse than everyone hating you is no one remembering you.
Right now for Western civilization, the former is leading to the latter. Having been widely condemned as oppressive, imperialist, colonizing, and appropriating, Western civilization is sometimes not even taught, let alone celebrated for producing the moral, technological, political, economic, and lifestyle achievements that give shape to our world. The Golden Thread helps in remembering and teaching without ignoring the failures and shortcomings of Western civilization.
The textbook collaborators Guelzo and Hankins have been acquainted for more than 50 years. Hankins wrote volume one, and Guelzo has written volume two. Guelzo is the Thomas W. Smith Distinguished Research Scholar and director of the James Madison Program’s Initiative on Politics and Statesmanship at Princeton University. Guelzo is a long-time favorite writer of mine, not least for his work on the American Civil War and Abraham Lincoln, for which he last appeared on Gospelbound in 2024. I’m honored to host him again as we commemorate the 250th anniversary of the founding of the United States, one of the hinge points in Western civilization in that memorable year of 1776.
In This Episode:
00:00 – Why Western civilization slips away when taken for granted
00:25 – Introducing Allen Guelzo and The Golden Thread
02:24 – How should we define Western civilization?
08:02 – The fall of communism and the West’s crisis of confidence
11:23 – China, radical Islam, Russia, and civilizational conflict
12:47 – Self-criticism as the West’s strength and danger
15:38 – World wars, Darwin, Freud, communism, and lost confidence
19:49 – The atomic age and the misuse of scientific achievement
22:09 – Defending the West without triumphalism
25:38 – Winston Churchill, trauma, and Christian civilization
30:15 – Adenauer, de Gaulle, and rebuilding Europe after 1945
32:38 – Strange defeat, German memory, and Russia’s missed moment
38:37 – C. S. Lewis, John Paul II, and Christianity in a skeptical age
39:28 – Contingency, crisis, and the decisions that shape history
42:24 – Christianity, Greece, Rome, and the “layer cake” of the West
51:33 – Technology, memory, and the future of civilization
53:39 – Lincoln, King, Augustine, and recovering the tradition
58:17 – Could artificial intelligence revive classical education?
59:37 – Closing encouragement
Resources Mentioned:
The Golden Thread Volume I by Allen C. Guelzo & James Hankins
The Golden Thread Volume II by Allen C. Guelzo & James Hankins
The Golden Thread Substack
The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas
The End of History and the Last Man by Francis Fukuyama
The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order by Samuel P. Huntington
Strange Defeat by Marc Bloch
Secondhand Time by Svetlana Alexievich
The Abolition of Man by C. S. Lewis
God in the Dock by C. S. Lewis
Dominion by Tom Holland
Lord of the Flies by William Golding
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01:03:40
Why Therapy Can’t Replace the Church
Episode in
Gospelbound
You will find many books on the biblical and practical importance of the local church. I wrote one myself a few years ago with Jonathan Leeman called Rediscover Church: Why the Body of Christ Is Essential. But few books can match the way Brad Edwards shows us the need for the church amid rampant anxiety, division, and individualism. Not only our churches but even whole societies would be transformed by implementing the wisdom found in this book, called The Reason for Church.
Brad is the church planter of The Table Church in Lafayette, Colorado. His debut book has been justly acclaimed. He won the 2025 Christianity Today Book of the Year Award and also finished first in the Church and Pastoral Leadership category. He was the winner of The Gospel Coalition's award for First-Time Author that year as well. I’m grateful that he joins me now to talk about everything from authority and institutions to anxiety and whether unity should be the goal for a church.
In This Episode:
00:00 – Opening: power, trust, and the temptation toward conformity
00:26 – Introducing Brad Edwards and The Reason for Church
01:41 – Ranking the causes behind declining trust in church authority
04:05 – Accountability, social media, and the limits of online justice
08:25 – Churches, institutions, platforms, and marketplace logic
11:17 – What changes people’s minds about the need for church?
13:27 – Church planting in Boulder County and Colorado’s anti-institutional culture
17:01 – Therapy culture, spiritual abuse, and what the book could not fully address
22:19 – Institution building, movements, and building a remnant
26:30 – Technology, schedules, and the challenge of spiritual formation
29:09 – Individuality versus individualism
34:39 – Should unity be the goal of a church?
37:49 – What surprised Brad most about becoming a pastor
39:21 – AI, agency, and the future of formation
43:07 – Hartmut Rosa, resonance, gambling, and the desire for control
46:55 – AI, education, responsibility, and authorship
52:05 – The church as remnant and refuge in a changing world
53:19 – What pastors want their congregations to know
56:41 – Closing and Gospelbound outro
Resources Mentioned:
The Reason for Church by Brad Edwards
Rediscover Church by Collin Hansen and Jonathan Leeman
Bowling Alone by Robert D. Putnam
Yuval Levin’s work on institutions
Bully Pulpit by Michael J. Kruger
GIRLS® by Freya India
The Reason for God by Tim Keller
Center Church by Tim Keller
Dominion by Tom Holland
Habits of the Heart by Robert Bellah
The Uncontrollability of the World by Hartmut Rosa
PostEverything, Brad Edwards’s podcast with John Homsher
Harper’s Magazine article on young AI founders
— — —
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58:39
On Losing Tim and Why Kathy Keller Published a Book of His Sermons on Sin
Episode in
Gospelbound
Tim Keller preached a series of sermons in the 1990s called “The Faces of Sin.” It did not go over well in New York. Angered by the liturgical confession of sin, one woman waited until after the sermon and yelled at Tim, “Neither I nor any of my children will ever confess to being sinners!”
Naturally, Tim’s wife, Kathy, decided these would make good sermons to turn into a book! That’s what we have in the new book What Is Wrong with the World? The Surprising, Hopeful Answer to the Question We Cannot Avoid, published by Zondervan.
One quote I think captures the book’s argument: “When we realize we are not a victim of our circumstances but a sinner who can call on someone much greater than ourselves to care for us, we can begin to truly live.”
That’s the surprisingly hopeful message of the gospel: our sin is the problem with the world. But all of us can be saved by grace when we confess that sin, repent of that sin, and trust in Christ. Easy enough, right? Remember that woman in New York. It’s no small thing to confess your sin. And ALL of us must confess our sin. Here’s what Tim wrote: “No other religion says that the lowest person in the gutter and the most moral, upstanding citizen in the world are equally lost, equally need to be saved by grace, and can only be saved by grace alone.”
What an honor to be joined again on Gospelbound by Kathy Keller about sin, grace, and the gospel.
In This Episode:
00:00 – Cold open: “the sin beneath the sin”
00:39 – Introducing Tim Keller’s Faces of Sin sermons and the new book
02:25 – Idolatry, grief, and losing what feels like “everything”
04:15 – Blind spots, community, and uncovering hidden sins
07:14 – “What’s wrong with the world?” starting with ourselves
08:13 – G. K. Chesterton and the sins of omission
11:31 – The gospel is bitter at first bite and sweet within
15:55 – Missing Tim and resting in God’s grace
16:48 – “Nathans,” correction, and giving one another “hunting licenses”
18:30 – Parenting regrets and learning consequences the hard way
22:22 – Why the gospel gives hope in the face of failure
22:52 – How Tim Keller is misunderstood today
30:43 – The Hopewell years and learning mercy ministry
34:55 – Kathy’s favorite Tim Keller book: Jonah / The Prodigal Prophet
37:57 – The books Tim Keller hoped to write
40:25 – “Identity received or achieved” and unfinished work
41:35 – Closing reflections
42:02 – Outro
Resources Mentioned:
What Is Wrong with the World? by Tim Keller
The Faces of Sin (Sermon Series) by Tim Keller
The Prodigal Prophet by Tim Keller
Ministries of Mercy by Tim Keller
The Mortification of Sin by John Owen
Making Sense of Us by TGC and The Keller Center
The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics
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44:33
What Keeps Carl Trueman Awake at Night
Episode in
Gospelbound
Western culture today largely lacks a sense of consecration, of setting apart the ordinary as holy. Yet somehow we still have a strong impulse toward desecration, of turning the holy into the ordinary. Why have we lost the taste of the good while developing a taste for the bad?
That’s a core question at the heart of Carl Trueman’s new book, The Desecration of Man: How the Rejection of God Degrades Our Humanity, published by Penguin Random House’s Sentinel imprint. Carl is a professor of biblical and theological studies at Grove City College and a fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. He was a guest on Gospelbound in 2020 for his highly acclaimed, bestselling book The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self.
In his new book Trueman writes, “Transgression of the sacred is exhilarating precisely because it makes us feel like gods, the creators of our own meanings and our own selves. All we need to do is cross lines previously enforced by the idea of God and we thereby assume the role of being gods.” Desecration is how we communicate authenticity, perhaps the most important value for the modern self.
This entire project has backfired. Let’s hear from Carl about why.
In This Episode:
00:00 – Carl Trueman on desecration and the modern crisis of humanity
02:30 – Why write another book after The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self?
04:22 – Why the sexual revolution sits at the center of the story
06:11 – Cultural Christianity, conversion, and why truth still matters
10:30 – Nietzsche’s “madman” and the collapse of moral meaning
12:56 – Authenticity, evangelism, and the uphill battle against expressive individualism
18:23 – Do the revolutions of modernity actually deliver what they promise?
21:04 – Genetic selection, artificial wombs, and the moral vacuum of tech culture
27:29 – Social acceleration, anxiety, and the instability of modern life
30:23 – Technology, human limits, and the need for a normative view of humanity
35:58 – Assisted suicide, autonomy, and why stories matter more than abstractions
41:53 – The transgender movement, fairness, and transhumanism
45:44 – Why Christian nationalism is not the answer
49:40 – Creed, cult, code, congregational singing, and hospitality as a plan of consecration
55:53 – Outro
Resources Mentioned:
The Desecration of Man by Carl Trueman
The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self by Carl Trueman
The Gay Science by Friedrich Nietzsche
The Ethics of Authenticity by Charles Taylor
— — —
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58:51
Top 10 Theology Stories Since 2000: Part 2
Episode in
Gospelbound
Join Collin Hansen, Michael Graham, and Sarah Zylstra as they continue to look back on the top theology stories from the last 25 years. In part 1, they counted down stories #10 to #6. Now in part 2, Graham and Zylstra walk with Hansen through his stories #5 down to #1.
In This Episode:
00:00:00 – Why homosexuality became a presenting issue dividing the church
00:00:41 – Sarah Zylstra introduces the second half of the top 10 list
00:01:34 – Recap of stories 10 through 6 from the previous episode
00:03:06 – Number 5: COVID-19 shuts the world down
00:04:57 – COVID, institutional mistrust, and the authority of scientists
00:06:25 – A decade of digital change compressed into one year
00:09:22 – What COVID did to church attendance and online ministry
00:11:38 – Rediscovering embodied worship after metaverse-era predictions
00:14:11 – Number 4: The Trump era and its theological consequences
00:15:41 – Supreme Court appointments, religious liberty, and legal change
00:18:50 – Dobbs, abortion, and evangelical disengagement from the pro-life cause
00:19:54 – Immigration as a leading social and theological issue
00:22:13 – Executive power, post-liberalism, and Christian nationalism
00:24:05 – Number 3: Obergefell and the moral transformation of marriage
00:25:20 – Sexuality, family, and the collapse of shared moral norms
00:27:48 – Don Carson’s 2005 warning about homosexuality as a presenting issue
00:29:22 – Mainline denominational splits and the global Methodist divide
00:32:11 – Why many evangelicals held to historic sexual ethics
00:33:17 – How race and sexuality became bundled in public discourse
00:36:56 – Rebecca McLaughlin and navigating race and sexuality faithfully
00:37:21 – Number 2: The iPhone and the shift to digital life
00:38:05 – Smartphones, fertility decline, and changing social habits
00:39:13 – Social contagion, gender identity, and online plausibility structures
00:40:08 – Podcasts, YouTube, AI, and the reshaping of knowledge
00:43:44 – Mike Graham on screens, AI, and the future of epistemology
00:48:00 – Individualized media diets, institutional decline, and gender divergence
00:50:06 – AI sycophancy, abuse scandals, and algorithm-shaped reality
00:53:51 – Why digital life felt like it could have been number one
00:54:26 – Number 1: Why 9/11 tops the list
00:56:23 – Christianity, Islam, and civilizational conflict
01:00:07 – 9/11, the new atheism, and the category of “fundamentalism”
01:02:01 – Theodicy, suffering, and major disasters after 9/11
01:03:12 – Mike Graham on why 9/11 is civilizationally decisive
01:06:17 – Middle Eastern Christians, Iraq, Syria, and migration into Europe
01:07:11 – Signs of God’s providence and good emerging from tragedy
01:09:18 – Tim Keller, New York church planting, and the young, restless, and Reformed movement
01:12:58 – Closing reflections on God’s providence over the last 25 years
Resources Mentioned:
Rediscover Church by Collin Hansen and Jonathan Leeman
The Secular Creed by Rebecca McLaughlin
The WEIRDest People in the World by Joseph Henrich
Generations by Jean M. Twenge
Timothy Keller by Collin Hansen
— — —
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01:18:01
Top 10 Theology Stories Since 2000: Part 1
Episode in
Gospelbound
Join Collin Hansen, Michael Graham, and Sarah Zylstra as they look back on the top theology stories from the last 25 years. In part 1 of this two-part series, Graham and Zylstra walk with Hansen through his stories #10 down to #6.
Since the year 2000, religion in America has changed dramatically. As recently as the 1990s, religion in America was what Tim Keller called “thick”: In general, many clergy were held in high esteem, churches were respected, and people either belonged to a congregation or knew that would be a good idea.
Yet since 2000, the percent of religious Americans has dropped and the number of nones (no religion) has jumped up from 8 percent to 22 percent—and climbing.
So while social commentators lament how much time Americans spend on our screens, describe how views on sexuality have drastically changed, identify how our politics have become sharply polarized, and observe how mental health especially in Gen Z has declined, they often miss the biggest story of all, the one underneath all the others—the decline in attention and deference to God.
In This Episode:
00:00 — The Great Dechurching: belief vs. disaffiliation
00:32 — Sarah hosts: why a 30,000-foot view now
03:26 — “Factfulness” and why we overlook positive trends
05:00 — #10: Global church leadership moving south
09:02 — Theological education hasn’t moved south at the same pace
10:03 — #9: Rise of non-denominational congregations
14:49 — Data point: non-denominationalism grows from ~3% (1972) to ~14–15% today
17:27 — Why churches drop denominational labels; media amplification; scandal-by-association
20:00 — #8: China’s church growth—and crackdown
22:07 — India, Hindu nationalism, and persecution; Nigeria and the Africa frontier
25:41 — #7: The Dechurching of America
30:24 — Apologetics after dechurching: from hostility to apathy
34:25 — Are churches fewer but stronger?
36:39 — Retention vs. conversion: why evangelical identity declines less
39:09 — #6: The Great Awokening (Ferguson to Floyd)
47:20 — Four paradigms for navigating race in America
52:44 — Wrap-up: Part 2 teaser
53:10 — Outro + where to find the podcast/newsletter
Resources Mentioned:
Factfulness by Hans Rosling
The Reason for God by Timothy Keller
Making Sense of God by Timothy Keller
A Secular Age by Charles Taylor
Divided by Faith by Michael Emerson
The Color of Compromise by Jemar Tisby
We Have Never Been Woke by Musa al-Gharbi
— — —
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57:18
How Your Church Witnesses to the World
Episode in
Gospelbound
When we receive applications for fellows at The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics, we ask them to answer the question, “What one thing should Christians do right now to introduce their neighbors to Jesus?” It’s not that we think there’s only one answer. It’s that we want them to identify the top priority. Last year we were surprised when every applicant gave the same answer. They talked about the public witness of gathered Christians, the church.
Maybe they were responding to negative press about the church, going back 25 years to the Catholic abuse scandal at the same time the internet became ubiquitous. Or maybe they were expressing renewed appreciation for the gathered church after the COVID-era shutdowns and public disorder. Either way, they were going back to biblical concept rooted in Israel’s testimony to the nations, and the early church in the book of Acts that found favor with all.
Bob Thune is a fellow for the Keller Center and writes about this so-called ecclesial apologetics in a chapter for our new book, The Gospel After Christendom: An Introduction to Cultural Apologetics, published by Zondervan Reflective. He’s also a featured teacher in an exciting new video small-group curriculum called Making Sense of Us, published by The Gospel Coalition and Keller Center. His session, recorded against the backdrop of the Statue of Liberty in New York City, covers the cultural narrative we tell each other in the modern West about liberty. We believe this curriculum can help you, especially young adults, to both evangelize and edify. When you watch and study with other church members, and even non-Christians, you can learn together about the Bible’s better story about liberty, which we live out together in the church.
In This Episode:
00:00 – A deeper freedom: set free from self for love
00:32 – Keller Center fellows: why the gathered church matters for witness
01:41 – Introducing Bob Thune, ecclesial apologetics, and Making Sense of Us
02:39 – Lesslie Newbigin and a missionary posture toward the modern West
05:06 – Is Omaha post-Christian? Modern Western culture everywhere
06:34 – Ecclesial apologetics despite church messiness
09:17 – Gospel doctrine and gospel culture (truth, goodness, beauty)
11:03 – Christian hospitality: making room for outsiders with conviction and listening
17:03 – Why this differs from the seeker movement
19:10 – Transition to Making Sense of Us: liberty and the Statue of Liberty backdrop
20:16 – Modern misconception: freedom as “freedom from” (negative liberty)
22:17 – Galatians 5: freedom subverted and fulfilled—freedom for love and service
24:48 – Choice as happiness: dislodging the assumption pastorally
26:55 – Cultural pressure points: teen mental health, friendship decline, obligation
29:15 – Autonomy and assisted dying/euthanasia debates
31:56 – More choice, more frustration: speech platforms and “Netflix paralysis”
33:50 – Patience for contested proposals (post-liberalism, nationalism, etc.)
35:01 – “Freedom for” the common good and a shared human project
39:13 – Three church roles: solidarity-bringer, subversive fulfillment, alternative city
43:27 – Augustine’s lesson: church power, loss, and enduring hope
44:05 – Recommended reading and resources roundup
Resources Mentioned:
The Gospel After Christendom by Collin Hansen
Making Sense of Us by John Starke, Rebecca McLaughlin, Sam Chan, Trevin Wax, Rachel Gilson, Bob Thune, Glen Scrivener, Michael Keller
The Air We Breathe by Glen Scrivener
The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt
The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis
Democracy and Solidarity by James Davison Hunter
City of God by Augustine of Hippo
— — —
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47:51
How Your Investing Could Change the World
Episode in
Gospelbound
“Do any of us really want to be in the position where our retirement account grows in sync with the cancer ward?”
That’s the question posed by Robin John about tobacco, responsible for 100 million deaths in the last 100 years. Naturally all of us would say no, we don’t want to benefit from other people dying. Yet as Robin points out in his new book, The Good Investor: How Your Work Can Confront Injustice, Love Your Neighbor, and Bring Healing to the World, many of us do hold mutual funds that invest in tobacco companies. We just don’t know it. Come to think of it, how much do we know about any of our investments, especially in long-term retirement accounts?
Robin John is the cofounder and CEO of Eventide, an asset management firm dedicated to honoring God and investing in companies that create compelling value for the common good. His vision for Eventide's values-based investing shows how our work can benefit everyone and not just bolster the bottom line for a fortunate few. I’d go so far as to say our world can be a much better place if investors—and employees of all kinds—will learn from his example and prioritize what really matters now, and in eternity.
In This Episode
0:00 – Joy, purpose, and God’s design for everyday work
1:49 – Why The Good Investor is ultimately a book about joy
2:48 – Growing up in Kerala, India, and immigrating to the U.S.
4:42 – Community, individualism, and caring for the vulnerable
7:41 – Returning to India and confronting workplace injustice
10:49 – Rethinking success, profit, and the purpose of work
11:53 – Why Christians must examine their investments
14:33 – What does it mean to “root for” a company’s success?
15:36 – Discernment, gray areas, and biblical values in investing
18:07 – Avoiding evil and actively pursuing the common good
19:43 – Weaponry, conscience, and consistency at Eventide
20:13 – The cautionary story of Bill Hwang and ill-gotten gain
23:19 – The false divide between faith and work
25:07 – How investing has changed since 2008
27:14 – What ESG investing is—and where it diverges from Christianity
31:19 – Mission alignment vs. values alignment
32:23 – Encouragement for ordinary, faithful work
34:44 – Legacy, goodness, and hearing “well done”
Resources Mentioned
The Good Investor by Robin John
— — —
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39:27
A Tool for Spiritual Formation in a Secular Age
Episode in
Gospelbound
At the end of the class on cultural apologetics I teach at Beeson Divinity School, I assign a group exercise. The students need to compose 10 questions and answers from a modern-day catechism. Historically catechisms have emerged during times of cultural transition and confrontation—such as our own, in the aftermath of Christendom and the Enlightenment, awaiting whatever develops in post-liberalism.
So catechisms are not merely a relic of our past but a vital resource for the present that prepares us for the future. I’m delighted with how The New City Catechism, especially our devotional, still serves readers. And I’m delighted by a new volume, The Gospel Way Catechism: 50 Truths that Take on the World, published by Harvest House and written by my friends Trevin Wax and Thomas West.
Tim Keller said, “We need a counter-catechism that explains, refutes, and re-narrates the world’s catechisms to Christians.” And what’s what Trevin and Thomas have done in The Gospel Way Catechism. Trevin is vice president of research and resource development at the North American Mission Board. Thomas is the pastor of Nashville First Baptist Church.
In This Episode
00:00 – What’s wrong with the world: deeper than ignorance or injustice
00:34 – Collin’s “modern catechism” assignment and why catechisms return in transitions
01:03 – Introducing The Gospel Way Catechism and Keller’s “counter catechism” vision
01:36 – Welcoming Trevin Wax and Thomas West
01:54 – “Can Baptists write a catechism?” and Baptist catechesis history
02:57 – Influential catechisms: Keach, Spurgeon, Heidelberg, Luther, Calvin, Westminster
03:23 – Most controversial truths today: sexuality and deeper “me-first” narratives
04:51 – “What has gone wrong?”: ignorance, injustice, expressive individualism
07:14 – Moving beyond whack-a-mole to the Bible’s deeper diagnosis
09:37 – Western self-centeredness and sin as being “curved in on ourselves”
12:24 – Writing process and Keller’s influence: every catechism is counter-catechesis
13:48 – Origin story at The Kilns (C. S. Lewis’s home) and testing in a London church
15:45 – Objections: “we don’t need this” and why cultural frames change catechesis needs
20:18 – Returning from London: seeing American wealth, waste, and politics differently
24:13 – Why Leviticus gets a chapter: sacrifice, scapegoating, and modern idols
27:59 – Catechesis and spiritual formation: tools, Word-centeredness, and Gen Z hunger
31:38 – Encouragement from readers: cultural narratives filtered, doctrine re-centered
33:09 – In 20 years: transhumanism, bioethics, reproductive tech, assisted dying
36:06 – “What is human?” and “What is truth?”—new iterations of old questions
36:39 – Closing thanks and sign-off
Resources Mentioned
The Gospel Way Catechism by Trevin Wax & Thomas West
New City Catechism by Kathy Keller
A Heart Aflame for God by Matthew Bingham
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41:04
What We Learn from the Black Church About the Culture War
Episode in
Gospelbound
Here in Birmingham, Alabama, I often teach about the civil-rights movement as the most effective faith-based movement for social change in American history. We have a bitter heritage of violent segregation. But the same city produced the heroes of the struggle, the ordinary men and women (especially children) who stared down the police dogs and fire hoses in the march for their freedom.
Justin Giboney honors such heroes as pastor Fred Shuttlesworth and commends their example for today in an informative, provocative book, Don’t Let Nobody Turn You Around: How the Black Church’s Public Witness Leads Us Out of the Culture War, published by IVP. Justin is the cofounder and president of the AND Campaign. The endorsement of this book by Bob Roberts calls Justin a “strange mix of Tim Keller and Martin Luther King Jr. wrapped up in his own personality and voice.” High praise!
In This Episode
00:00 – Jesus, truth, and critiquing our own side
00:33 – Birmingham, civil rights, and faith-based social change
01:00 – Introducing Don’t Let Nobody Turn You Around
01:40 – The burden behind writing the book
03:07 – Family history and the Black church tradition
04:05 – Why Fred Shuttlesworth matters
05:14 – “Biblicist and actionist”: faith and public courage
06:05 – Nonviolence, moral discipline, and leadership
07:11 – Shuttlesworth and King: contrasts and complements
09:23 – Why moral progress isn’t inevitable
12:10 – Moral imagination and Christian hope
15:57 – What is the culture war? 18:44 – Humility, self-critique, and redeemable opponents
21:29 – Justice, moral order, and refusing false binaries
22:51 – King, the late 1960s, and the cost of a “third way”
25:26 – Militancy, frustration, and historical context
28:01 – Why Christians can’t abandon character
31:12 – Tyranny, violence, and ending debate by force
33:18 – Advice for young activists
35:19 – Frederick Douglass and critiquing your own movement
38:37 – Accountability, power, and political humility
43:36 – Christian nationalism and historical amnesia
47:24 – Final encouragement: civility, faithfulness, and hope
Resources Mentioned
Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around: How the Black Church's Public Witness Leads Us out of the Culture War by Justin Giboney
— — —
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52:57
Work and the Meaning of Life
Episode in
Gospelbound
Work is the meaning of life.
Got your attention?
Your identity is tied to what you do.
I bet I have it now.
So argues David Bahnsen in his book Full-Time: Work and the Meaning of Life. Bahnsen is the founder, managing partner, and chief investment officer of The Bahnsen Group, a national private wealth management firm. He’s also the author of several books, including Crisis of Responsibility: Our Cultural Addiction to Blame and How You Can Cure It.
In This Episode
00:00 – Why Christians shouldn’t pit work against family or church
01:10 – Why Full Time Work and the Meaning of Life matters so deeply to Bahnsen
02:11 – Losing his father and discovering purpose through work
03:56 – The church’s discomfort with ambition and vocation
06:00 – Identity, salvation, and what our work says about us
09:06 – “Work is the meaning of life?” A biblical case from Genesis
12:55 – The crisis of men not working and its social consequences
16:12 – How Reformed theology shapes Bahnsen’s view of vocation
19:41 – The influence of Tim Keller and Every Good Endeavor
23:14 – Rejecting the zero-sum view of family vs. career
31:41 – Productivity, early mornings, and modeling joyful work
36:10 – Why in-person work still matters after COVID
44:39 – Conviction, politics, and resisting tribal thinking
54:21 – Overcoming resentment by telling the truth
Resources Mentioned
Full-Time: Work and the Meaning of Life by David Bahnsen
Crisis of Responsibility: Our Cultural Addiction to Blame and How You Can Cure It by David Bahnsen
Every Good Endeavor: Connecting Your Work to God’s Work by Tim Keller
— — —
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01:01:54
Top Theology Stories of 2025
Episode in
Gospelbound
Join Collin Hansen and Melissa Kruger for their annual discussion as they look back on the top theology stories of 2025 and look towards the year to come. They also share their favorite interviews and books from 2025, updates on personal projects, and what they’re each looking forward to in life and ministry in 2026.
Resources Mentioned
Theo of Golden by Allen Levi
Believe by Ross Douthat
Superbloom by Nicholas Carr
Everything Is Never Enough by Bobby Jamieson
Blaise Pascal: The Man Who Made the Modern World by Graham Tomlin
Future Tenses of the Blessed Life by F. B. Meyer
A Case Against the Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry
I Seek a Kind Person: My Father, Seven Children, and the Adverts that Helped Them Escape the Holocaust by Julian Borger
The Deep Dish Podcast
The Rest Is History
TGC Church Directory
The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics
Making Sense of Us
TGCW26 — National Women’s Conference
RTS Women’s Bible Study
— — —
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01:47:34
Why We Should Recover Cultural Apologetics
Episode in
Gospelbound
For many, apologetics is associated with arguments over rational, philosophical proofs. It’s a matter of the head instead of the heart, a debate over facts instead of feelings. But no matter what kind of apologetics you practice, you’re arguing according to a certain set of rules, in a particular language, attuned to what you expect to resonate in your time and place. In other words, it’s always cultural, never purely timeless. And it’s never purely rational.
We need to recover apologetics as a matter of the heart and hands as well as the head. We need to recover apologetics as a project for the whole church and not just for those who enjoy arguing. What we call cultural apologetics is not a new academic discipline. It’s a means to reconnect the church to the best biblical and historical resources for presenting and defending the faith “once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3).
That’s the vision behind a new book, The Gospel After Christendom: An Introduction to Cultural Apologetics, which I edited for Zondervan Reflective and The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. I’m joined now by two of the contributors, both fellows for The Keller Center. Josh Chatraw is the Billy Graham chair for evangelism and cultural engagement here at Beeson Divinity School in Birmingham, Alabama. Visiting us here at Beeson this week is Christopher Watkin, associate professor of French and Francophone studies at Monash University in Melbourne, Australia.
———
In This Episode
02:00 — Apologetics as Cultural: Head, Heart, and Hands
03:00 — Biblical Models for Cultural Apologetics
05:10 — Retrieval: Learning from Church History
09:16 — Augustine, Rome, and Biblical Critical Theory
13:00 — Diagonal Thinking, Third-Way Debates, and Politics
16:00 — Confrontational vs. Winsome Apologetics
20:00 — How Jesus Engaged Different People
26:00 — Apologetics for the Whole Church and for Pastors
34:00 — Retrieval Models: Pascal, Montaigne, and Modern Idols
41:00 — Audience Q&A: Out-Narrating, Doubt, Catholicism, Facts vs. Heart Issues
51:46 — Closing Reflections
Resources Mentioned
The Gospel After Christendom by Collin Hansen, Ivan Mesa, & Skyler Flowers
Telling a Better Story by Josh Chatraw
Biblical Critical Theory by Christopher Watkin
City of God by Augustine
Confronting Christianity Podcast with Rebecca McLaughlin
The Speak Life Podcast with Glen Scrivener
Truth Unites Podcast with Gavin Ortlund
———
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52:18
A Biblical Response to Transgender Theory
Episode in
Gospelbound
If gender is constructed, it can be deconstructed. Think about it: if we built it, we can tear it down. Now you know why some activists have been so determined to convince us that gender is something we assign, rather than something we receive. If we assign it, then we can reassign it as we wish. We don’t receive our bodies. We can remake our bodies.
No doubt you’ve observed the rise of transgender theory in Western culture. It’s the denial that the sexed body reveals and determines the gendered self. That’s the helpful summary we find in the excellent new book The Body God Gives: A Biblical Response to Transgender Theory, written by Robert Smith.
Smith is an ordained Anglican minister and lecturer in theology, ethics, and music ministry at Sydney Missionary and Bible College in Australia. He’s written two previous books on gender and identity. This new book by Lexham (now Baker) gives you a little bit of everything. He breaks down the arguments of gender theorists. He guides readers on a who’s who of philosophers who built the intellectual foundations of the secular West: Descartes, Rousseau, Kant, Marx, Wittgenstein, Freud, Sartre, Derrida, Foucault.
And he concludes with biblical argumentation to show us nobody is born in the wrong body. He writes, “God’s desire for my gender is revealed by the design of my body.” I appreciate the way he harmonizes the biblical story from Genesis to Revelation: “Our present task is to work with the grain of creation toward the goal of new creation.”
Rob joins me on Gospelbound to talk transgender theory, how it spread, why it’s peaked, and where evangelicals need to go next.
In This Episode
02:00 – Introducing Rob Smith & The Body God Gives
04:30 – The Transgender Tipping Point
06:21 – Butler, Foucault, and Gender Theory
11:21 – Queer Theory vs. Trans Theory
16:50 – Signs of Peak Transgender Influence
21:47 – Sex, Gender, and Stereotypes
29:00 – Church Culture and Gender Expectations
30:24 – Children, Puberty, and Medical Debate
33:30 – Technology, Identity, and Disembodiment
39:38 – Genesis 1–2 and Embodied Identity
46:37 – Marriage, Singleness, and Biblical Continuity
51:16 – Pastoring Those with Gender Dysphoria
56:00 – Violence, Fear, and Identity Conflicts
01:00:00 – Expressive Individualism and the Modern Self
Resources Mentioned
The Body God Gives: A Biblical Response to Transgender Theory by Rob Smith
Why Are Black Women Increasingly Identifying as Bisexual? by Joe Carter
––––
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01:13:22
3 Threats to Secularism in the West
Episode in
Gospelbound
In this commentary, I reflect on my recent trip to Copenhagen, Denmark, and the broader implications of living in the post-Christendom West. Walking the ancient streets and talking to seasoned church leaders I pondered two major factors that contribute to secularism, and how Protestantism has become a victim of its own success. Yet some European countries and U.S. regions buck the secular trend. Why? Considering the story of secularism—and resilient Christianity—helps us pass down a robust, durable faith to the next generation.
———
In This Episode
04:00 – Faith and decadence on Copenhagen’s streets
08:00 – From opt-out to opt-in belief
12:00 – America’s exception and slow convergence
18:00 – Faith thrives under tension
23:00 – The problem with establishment
30:00 – Reform, burnout, and secular substitutes
36:00 – Postwar humanism and its cracks
45:00 – Reality intrudes on secular optimism
49:00 – Three pressures on secularism and gospel hope
Resources Mentioned
Graph of Religious Importance and Corresponding GDP
Graph of Religious Attendance in the US and Europe
A Secular Age by Charles Taylor
Destroyer of the gods by Larry W. Hurtado
Dominion by Tom Holland
The Age of Hitler and How We Will Survive It by Alec Ryrie
The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis
———
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59:15
Church Could (Literally) Save Your Life
Episode in
Gospelbound
Imagine you could save your life through one simple, regular act. You wouldn’t always want to do it. Every week you’d come up with multiple excuses. The night before would often be a struggle. Same with the morning before. Every time you finish you feel refreshed, energized, eager to undertake that day’s agenda. But then when it came time to do it again, somehow you’d still struggle to do it.
Ok. I don’t know what comes to mind for you. Maybe the gym. Maybe a quiet time of Bible reading and prayer. Maybe a call or meeting with a family member or friend. But I’m talking about church and a new book by Rebecca McLaughlin, How Church Could (Literally) Save Your Life, published by Crossway and TGC.
Rebecca is widely known to Gospelbound viewers and listeners as author of several of the most encouraging and successful books in TGC history, including Confronting Christianity, The Secular Creed, and Jesus through the Eyes of Women. She’s also a fellow with The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. She returns to Gospelbound to discuss the life-changing research on what makes church good for your health.
In This Episode
04:30 – What Makes Church Unique
08:00 – How many modern moral values come directly from Christianity
16:00 – Real Benefits, Real Belief
23:00 – The Church as Family
30:00 – Sharing Faith in a Skeptical World
45:00 – Healing from Church Hurt
48:00 – A Practical Vision for Believers
Guest Resources
How Church Could Literally Save Your Life by Rebecca McLaughlin
Rebbeca’s Website
Confronting Christianity Podcast
Follow Rebecca
——
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58:42
How To Exit Tech
Episode in
Gospelbound
When I see whiffle ball, and I hear the piano, I know we’re probably doing ok as a family. And when I turn on the news and see what Meta has been programming AI to engage in sensual conversations with children, I don’t feel bad about keeping my children away from social media.
I wouldn’t have my job if not for social media. I’ve learned a lot. I’ve made and maintained many friends. I would miss social media. But I’m glad I had a childhood without it. Just a computer with internet contributed to enough problems.
If we as parents could see what our children see on social media, we wouldn’t hesitate to keep them away. That’s why Clare Morell calls for a tech exit: “no smartphones, social media, tablets, or video games during childhood.”
Morell is a fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center and director of its Technology and Human Flourishing Project. You met her husband earlier this year on Gospelbound as Caleb Morell wrote about the history of Capitol Hill Baptist Church.
In her book The Tech Exit: A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens from Smartphones, Clare says we’ve reached a tipping point in the fight against letting smartphones take over childhood. The key is preserving something better, something more valuable: the chance for our children to contribute to their family and community, to enjoy the bonds of families and the boundaries of neighborhoods. Clare writes, “It turns out that screens cost children more than just their time; they also cause them to lose their appetite for things of the real world.”
In This Episode
00:00 – Why kids need a “tech exit” in the age of AI chatbots
02:52 – Addictive by design: dopamine, algorithms, and broken parental controls
08:42 – Christian hope and human flourishing: forming persons, not consumers
15:20 – The five-step family plan for smartphone-free childhood
22:52 – Policy momentum: bans, age restrictions, and global lessons
32:33 – Practical guidance for families, churches, and schools
45:24 – Parents as models: rhythms, phone boxes, and screen-free community
Mentioned Resources
The Tech Exit: A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens from Smartphones by Clare Morell
Clare's Substack
More from Clare
Alternative “tools-only” phones:Bark
Gabb
Pinwheel
Wisephone
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50:43
Why Everything Never Feels Like Enough
Episode in
Gospelbound
“Does it feel like you should be happy, you want to be happy, and you try to be happy, but somehow you can’t?”
What a simple, common, yet poignant question. It’s in the preface to the new book Everything Is Never Enough: Ecclesiastes’ Surprising Path to Resilient Happiness, written by Bobby Jamieson. He is the senior pastor of Trinity Baptist Church in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. He earned his PhD from the University of Cambridge and previously served on the pastoral staff of Capitol Hill Baptist Church.
This is a book about happiness that explains you’re probably looking for it in all the wrong places. Jamieson brings us into the world of Ecclesiastes and its enigmatic author, Qohelet, the world of hevel, or absurdity. His inspired words help us see our biggest problem with life is death. The epitome of pride is believing we can overcome it. We’ll never be happy until we surrender in humility to its inevitability.
Jamieson guides us through three stories that guide on a life well lived: the contentment of limits, the joys of resonance, and happiness you can’t lose in this world because it comes from another. He helps us see, “Happiness is not striving for gain from life but receiving life itself as a gift.”
In This Episode
00:00 – Introducing Everything Is Never Enough
05:30 – Who is the Preacher of Ecclesiastes?
07:00 – Vanity, absurdity, and the search for meaning
13:30 – Modern thinkers on money, time, and ambition
22:00 – How Ecclesiastes shaped Jamieson’s life and ministry
35:00 – Preaching Ecclesiastes and pointing to Christ
Mentioned Resources
Everything Is Never Enough: Ecclesiastes’ Surprising Path to Resilient Happiness
Hartmut Rosa, The Uncontrollability of the World
Byung-Chul Han, The Burnout Society
Michael Sandel, What Money Can’t Buy
Andy Crouch, The Life We’re Looking For
C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
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42:16
Sing with Getty and Other Greats in This New Hymnal
Episode in
Gospelbound
Music and family have always been connected for me. My grandfather taught me the Christian faith largely through our Welsh heritage of signing. Shortly before he died, our family gathered around the piano as my mother played and we sang many of his favorites from the Methodist hymnal. Every night with my own family we open the hymnal and sing some of these famous Welsh hymns, including “Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah.” The great Methodist hymn writer Charles Wesley wrote “Jesus, Lover of My Soul,” commonly set to the Welsh tune “Aberystwyth” (a-ber-ist-with). If you’re a fan of the TV show The Crown, you’ll recognize this song from the episode “Aberfan.”
So you can see I’m partial to the old hymns. But unfortunately, we’ve worn out the binding on my old Methodist hymnal. And when I’m singing with my family, I want to include some newer songs they sing in church, songs that have played such a big role in my own generation’s faith: songs like “In Christ Alone,” “Speak O Lord,” and “The Lord Is My Salvation,” written by Keith Getty, my guest on this episode of Gospelbound.
We’re talking about one of the most anticipated releases I can remember, the brand-new Sing! Hymnal, published with Crossway. In their introduction, Keith and his wife Kristyn write, “Hymns are the heart language of the church, used to sing truth to the Lord and to one another in every season of the soul. This has always been the way. . . . Our hymns hold us, inspire us, comfort us—and form us.”
You know Keith Getty as songwriter of some of your most beloved songs. A choir director. A musician. A movement leader. Hopefully you’ve sung with Keith and Kristyn at one of several TGC national conferences. He joins me today on Gospelbound to discuss changes in church music, liturgy, and the legacy of this hymnal.
Learn More About the Sing! Hymnal
Singhymnal.com
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44:04
BONUS: Advice for Apologetics with Wes Huff
Episode in
Gospelbound
In a special crossover episode of The Everyday Pastorand Gospelbound, Wesley Huff joins Lig, Matt, and Collin to discuss the role of apologetics in pastoral ministry. How can pastors excel in giving a compelling reason for the hope within us—and train others to do the same? Drawing from both academic expertise and personal experience, Huff offers various cautions and tips for everyday pastors and believers. He shares examples of good apologists today, recommends books, and answers a lightning round of classic objections to the Christian faith.
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01:28:27
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