Introvert Biz Growth Podcast

Today’s conversation fits under the P of Pause Yes, I tricked you. Obviously Pause is not a word from the Humane Marketing Mandala. That’s right. I’m putting the podcast on pause in 2026. Some of you know that I’m co-creating a new community called Inner Development at work, all around the Inner Development Guide framework, where we want to change the world, starting from within. Sound similar to Humane Marketing. That’s right. I was practicing this framework before it even existed. Anyways, that community takes up a lot of my pro bono time right now, and I simply have to do in my own business, what I often help my 1on1 Coaching clients do in theirs: look at all the things we’re doing, and then prioritizing which ones to continue to invest energy in. And unfortunately the podcast didn’t make the cut. As you might know, creating and hosting a podcast takes a LOT of time, and I simply need and want to focus this time on other things right now. So I’m pressing pause right now. Pause but not Full Stop. Because I might still publish an episode occassionally, whenever I meet a new amazing human being that I just want to have a conversation with. So don’t unsubscribe completely. Talking about unsubscribe. I also moved the show to Kajabi (because they include the podcast in my plan) and just transferred all the episodes over the other day. And guess how many episodes there was? 327! Yes, I know, the visuals say 220, but I’ve actually been podcasting long before the Humane Marketing podcast. The first show was called ‘Where Introverts Grow Their Business’, then I renamed it to ‘The Gentle Business Revolution’, which finally morphed into ‘The Humane Marketing Show’ So yes, 327 episodes. Wow. I think I deserve a pause 🙂 Oh, what I wanted to say is that by moving to another podcast host I’m not completely sure what happens if you’re subscribed to the show in an app. So it maybe that you have to update it, or look for the show again and resubscribe. Also, just because I’m pausing the podcast doesn’t mean I’m pausing the busienss. I’m continuing to hold my two programs, Marketing Like we’re human and ‘How to sell in 2026 and beyond’. In fact the marketing prorgram starts another cohort on Feb 4th if you’d like to join us go to humane.marketing/program I also continue my Conscious Business Coaching with 1-on-1 clients, so if you’d like support to help you grow your business with integrity in 2026, do reach out. you can go to humane.marketing/coaching to find out more. Other ways to keep in touch and stay up to date with humane marketing topics: get on my email list at humane.marketing/1page connect with me on LinkedIn if you’re a meditator connect with me on Insight Timer where I regularly host lives around conscious business topics follow my blog, I’ve started blogging again more regularly read my books It’s been a pleasure to serve you with real and authentic conversations around the topics of humane marketing, selling and business. Wishing you a lovely end of the year and Happy Holidays

This is the 5th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode Kerry shares some feedback from previous participants of the program, what was great and what could be improved >> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 5th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode Kerry shares some feedback from previous participants of the program, what was great and what could be improved >> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 4th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the resources or workbooks of the program, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. >> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 4th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the resources or workbooks of the program, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. >> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 4th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the resources or workbooks of the program, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. >> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 3rd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about each module in detail, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 3rd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about each module in detail, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 3rd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about each module in detail, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 2nd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the pivotal moments of the program I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 2nd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the pivotal moments of the program I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 2nd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the pivotal moments of the program I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

I'm kicking off another little series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational. I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos. And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

I'm kicking off another little series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

I'm kicking off another little series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue. This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within. This program is for you if: you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way you want to make a difference with your work you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and You can find out more at humane.marketing/program In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over. Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.   I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.   And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

Neurodivergent Marketing is a real-talk conversation with Myriam Martinez for neurodivergent entrepreneurs who want marketing that fits their nervous system. We unpack why masking turns marketing into performance and how overload and pace create the real friction. We name the trust breakers (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) and offer humane swaps: "signpost" instead of lead magnet, "people who clicked" instead of conversions, and publishing prices, totals, and time needs before any call. Expect consent-led sales calls, boundaries as care, and Neurodivergent strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—as positioning superpowers so people can choose with bodily safety, time, and agency. The outcome: a sustainable, sovereign, and humane way to market. In this episode we discussed: How many of us discover neurodivergence through our families and feel relief naming it. Why masking in life makes "performing" in marketing extra exhausting. That overload and pace are the core friction—not a mindset issue. How old marketing norms (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) violate trust. Reframing jargon into human words: "lead magnet" → "signpost," "conversions" → "people who clicked." Why transparency matters: publish prices, totals, and time needs before any call. How ND strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—become positioning superpowers. That buyers need bodily safety, time, and agency to choose. Why consent-led sales calls beat scripts and simulation. Boundaries as care: limited meetings, clear hours, recovery time after stimulation. Embracing your wiring (not fixing it) reduces anxiety and increases sustainability. A hopeful future: a rising generation that won't tolerate manipulation and leads with sovereignty. Watch this episode on YouTube -- Speaker 0: miriam, it's good to have you back. welcome to the humane marketing podcast. Speaker 1: sarah, i'm so happy to be back on your podcast. Speaker 0: back in my house. right? we just yes. it's just like having a conversation in my house. yes. Speaker 1: yes. exactly. Speaker 0: yeah. so you've been on the show before, but this time we decided to talk about neurodivergent marketing, which is something that i'm super excited about and especially to talk about it with you, um, because you went through this own little transformation and awakening or how would you call it? yeah. Speaker 1: i mean, it's an awakening or rediscovery, you know, in a way of who i am, who i really am at my core, and how that impacts everything that i do. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. because we, uh, worked together a few years back. and back then, it was very much focused on women and well-being, the work that you were doing. and so tell us a little bit how that has changed over the most recent months, year. Speaker 1: yeah. so like most adults, it started with my kids' diagnoses of adhd and becoming more curious about it. you know, i'm a therapist, so i i'm i always understood the diagnosis. you know, i understood it in that way, maybe, like, in a more removed way. but once it was in my home, you know, and i was really living with it, i obviously became much more curious about it. you know? and then it turns out that, you know, my husband is adhd, and it's like, oh, look at them. they're like two peas in a pod. you know? um, and so i started doing more training around this because i wanted to be more supportive for people around this. and quickly, i started to see some traits, you know, show up for me. and for me, it's a really interesting cross between autism and adhd, which there's a term that's floating around out there called adhd. and that's not a diagnosis. right? but it just reflects that there's this cross between these two worlds sometimes. and, you know, we're learning all the time about neurodivergence, you know, and how it shows up and it's so different for everybody. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. thanks for sharing your story. and it kinda went very similarly for me. like for the longest time, we, you know, didn't know, uh, what my son was experiencing. and for i first thought, well, introvert like, back in the days, we just talked about introverts, extroverts. yep. and then all of a sudden this term hsp came up and i discovered, oh, i'm a highly sensitive person. and so i thought, oh, that's probably what he is as well. and and and then, you know, as it kept as we kept discovering more and, you know, thank god we have so much information out there now and youtube videos and all of that. it's it's so helpful. i don't know. well, i guess that's a big reason why back in the days it wasn't discovered. right? i'm pretty sure my dad is autistic, but how would he have known if if there wasn't that much content out there and diagnosis? and and so, yeah, learning it about my son that he's on the spectrum and then pretty sure my husband is too. and and so just, yeah, finding out more and more and and then working with clients who have adhd or, um, you know, our hsps, neurodivergency. and so i think i couldn't think of a better person than you to have this conversation around marketing because that's really what we worked on together as well. and, like, just i remember your expression of frustration around this thing that we call marketing and and how it just, like, your brain was, like, going against it and you're like, no. Speaker 1: in all the ways. yeah. i could not process it. Speaker 0: yeah. exactly. so if we if you maybe think back to that time, but then also just to generalize, what do you think like, why is marketing the old way of marketing? right? why is that so counterintuitive for, uh, people on the neurodivergent spectrum? why do they react like you did? whereas, like, i just don't get it. why would we do this like that? Speaker 1: right. right. no. exactly. um, it's it's multilayered. right? because when we're talking about neurodivergence, we're talking about a variety of different disorders and diagnoses. right? so that could include autism, adhd, dyslexia, dyscalculia, which is, you know, having a hard time with numbers or number concepts, dyspraxia, which is having a lot of uncoordination in your body, right, tourette's. i mean, there's such a list that falls under neurodivergence. so when we talk about these generals, i wanna make sure that i put that disclaimer out there that it's not necessarily applicable to everybody under that umbrella. but that in general, really what it comes down to is sensory overload. like, it's just too much. it's too and and then pace. it's too fast. it's too fast moving. we can't process. i mean, which which is how i started this conversation. right? i was like, i can't process this. it was too much. it was too much. you know? and what's hard when you are experiencing neurodivergence, but you don't know that that's what's happening is that you're comparing yourself to the neurotypical world, which is looking at you like, what's the big deal? yeah. i don't understand what your problem is. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: right? and so i really struggled with my self esteem around my business, for myself. like, can i even do this? because i can't do these things. i'm having a hard time. it's you know? and then you have people telling you it's a mindset issue. you know? and it's like, no. i literally can't understand this concept. right? so it's so much of it is that sensory piece, like i said, and just it's too fast and short deadlines and pressure. and it's just not something that works with the neurodivergent nervous system. we're much more sensitive than that. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. and what i experience also from, you know, when i hear back from clients is is this authenticity piece. so as we know, uh, there's a lot of masking that needs to happen for or not needs to, but is happening for neurodivergent peoples in order to fit in. right? Speaker 1: it's part of survival. Speaker 0: and yeah. exactly. and so and so it almost seems like, well, they have to wear this mask all the time to survive, to fit in. and so they are kind of, like, revolting against having to wear this mask as well in the marketing field and in the business field. it's just, like, so exhausting to to do that. Speaker 1: it's so exhausting. yeah. absolutely. and and i do think that it it's it's 10 times more exhausting when you don't know what's going on. you know? so a lot of the work that i do with adults, right, is help them see that they are probably under this umbrella. right? and we start looking at some of their behaviors, right, and their patterns. and then quickly together, we can identify, oh, yeah. it looks like maybe you're adhd or it looks like maybe you fall under autism or, you know, whatever it is. or maybe there's more than one thing going on, you know, adhd with dyslexia. right? dyscalculia is something that's, you know, relatively new in terms of, um, of a term that's used out there. right? and for me personally, i mean, i think i i'm a i i might have cried when i heard that term. you know? it was like, oh, right. so it's not that i'm dumb. it's not that i'm not a, quote, unquote, math person. like, my brain literally has a hard time processing numbers and number concepts just like a dyslexic can't see letters in the right form. it's the same. Speaker 0: yeah. and here we are, you know, in marketing, keep telling people to not the numbers so much, but the the content i'm thinking of, like, keep creating all this content. well, you know, uh, if you have dyslexia, writing and reading is definitely not part of the things that you enjoy doing. and so, again, if you compare yourself to the neurotypical people, you're you start to think, well, what's wrong with me? how can i how can how come i can't do this? Speaker 1: that's right. and then that really interferes. right? you can see how then that really starts to interfere. yeah. 100%. and for me, in marketing, there's always a lot of talk about budget. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: yeah. and then just the word sends my nervous system into a state, you know. and if you start talking to me about budgets or asking me or start talk throwing any kind of numbers at me in any way, my brain will just completely shut down. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: it just won't it just won't let it in, and you'll probably see a really blank look come across my face. Speaker 0: yeah. but just or or even, like, conversion rates. right? how does that make you feel? Speaker 1: so scary. so scary. Speaker 0: yeah. it's all these metrics, like the the linear linear and kind of like Speaker 1: yeah. that's really, really Speaker 0: masculine way of of doing marketing was all based on on numbers and conversions and Speaker 1: right. Speaker 0: yeah. roi is another one of those terms. you're like, uh. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. totally. and if Speaker 1: i hadn't discovered this, i i might have given up. i might have just said, i guess this isn't for me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: or or i guess i'm just i can't do it or i'm not good at it. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: right? Speaker 0: so so let's turn it around then. like yes. what kind of, you know, strengths do neurodivergent people have and can bring to this idea of business building and and marketing and and connecting and communicating, really, because that's what we're talking about. Speaker 1: yeah. i know. i love this part. this part gets me really excited, you know. but i think that, you know, again, a little mini disclaimer is that sometimes the strengths are, like, they're double edged swords. sometimes they also create stress. you know? so for example, one thing that, um, neurodivergence bring is a lot of, um, focus on detail. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1: right? and pattern recognition. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and being able to take that information and then create a concept. you know? um, and that's amazing. that's an amazing skill, you know, when it's applied well. and and then we might focus too much on a detail. right? or go Speaker 0: down a little bit. to procrastination as well because it needs to be perfect into every detail. Speaker 1: yeah. and, you know, i wanna i wanna separate those two things because perfectionism is more under the category of anxiety. mhmm. right? and so when we're dealing with, um, neurodivergence, we we are also experiencing things like anxiety. so it becomes much more challenging, right, when we're dealing with these multiple layers at the same time. you know? but i do think that if we can keep looking at the at what the strengths are in this, you know, like, really deep focus. right? directness and honesty. you know? we don't really like small talk or anything that's not deep, essentially. right? and we'd have a hard time not being honest. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: you know? it really becomes a moral dilemma. and so that's those are things that i think are really beautiful about, um, people under the narrow neurodivergent umbrella. right? there's also the creativity Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and out of the box thinking. Speaker 0: yeah. very much so. mhmm. and i think that's what you really played into it. right? it's like because you have that creative part of yourself and you've figured out how do i bring that to my marketing. i remember back in the days when you used to follow, you know, the these, um, kind of templates of creating canva visuals. yeah. it just all looks the same. let's be honest. right? Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. Speaker 0: and then all of a sudden you started to bring in your art and, you know, more of your pictures and you could tell, wow, she's really having fun with this. and that's the that's the creative side. um, yeah. so much Speaker 1: so for me, i have to change some of the terms. right? and and it kinda maybe speaks to, like, how we market to neurodivergent folk. you know? because if you use the word conversion rate, then my heart rate goes up, and i'm gonna have a shutdown. right? but if you say, how many people, right, or this many people clicked on your site, and then this is what happened after that, then i got it. i can totally follow that pattern. right? so it's again, sometimes the wording, sometimes, uh, too much of a relationship to mathematical concepts or overwhelm, overload. right? that kind of a thing. Speaker 0: basically, concepts that society accepted as being marketing concepts and ideas. Speaker 1: mhmm. Speaker 0: and that you are like, who said that was a concept? like, explain it to me what that means in in, like, full sentences. Speaker 1: yeah. which is very much a lot in the autism range. yeah. you know, like, we really want to know the detail. how did we get there? i really wanna understand the the process. right. right. and then i can really integrate the information. Speaker 0: right. yeah. i get it. yeah. yeah. what i noticed myself doing a lot, um, on the blog is taking some of these old paradigm terms, uh, from marketing, like lead magnet. right? most people have heard of lead magnets. but what does that even mean? like, it's such a weird kind of term where we're sucking people in with a magnet. and so turning that into signposts where we are guiding people to to make a a buying decision, for example, or to come into our world. but i find that i need to use the old word and then juxtaposition it to the new words so that, you know, i can help make that that journey over the bridge, like, to to help people understand, yeah, this is maybe what you've heard, but it doesn't feel good. and so here's an alternative. here's a different word for it. Speaker 1: mhmm. mhmm. Speaker 0: so, uh, i i hear from you that that's helpful. right? like, coming up with new language around marketing that what and then prompts our nervous system as well. Speaker 1: that's right. and so much of the self care is, like, being able to notice that something does create agitation for you. right? and rather than question it or put yourself down for it, it's like, okay. it's just that my nervous system is not liking this for some reason. let's see what what i can do about that. right? Speaker 0: right. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. like, what other things that you have experienced in in business? like, let's think about sales, for example, uh, where you feel like there's been a certain norm. again, these norms. right? that, uh, neurodivergent people are like, i don't get these norms. like but there are some kind of norms. like, let's take a a sales call, uh, that feels very scripted, uh, where you are on the call and you you can cut you've like, what my son always says, he's like, feels like we're in a simulation. not necessarily in a sales call, but i'm sure he would say that if the person just kinda goes blah blah blah through the sales script. and you're like, is he even talking to me? like, is this is this for real? like yeah. Speaker 1: do you Speaker 0: have any other kind of business concept things that you feel like, yeah, that's just not for neurodivergent people. Speaker 1: oh, yeah. i mean, let's start with the scarcity countdowns. Speaker 0: uh, yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: right? what my body does with that is it shuts down. Speaker 0: creates so much anxiety. right? Speaker 1: yeah. absolutely. you know? and for some people, it it it will work, so to speak, you know, quote, unquote. it will create such stress in someone that they'll that they'll buy the the coaching package or, you know, whatever it is. but that's kinda icky. right? and it's the opposite of humane marketing. so that those kinds of things, you know, are not for the neurodivergent. i don't think they're for anybody, but that's my personal opinion. you know? yeah. Speaker 0: my opinion too. Speaker 1: that's why we're here. yeah. right? Speaker 0: another example that comes to mind i don't know if that is still happening, uh, out there. but back in the days, they would have these webinars, huge webinars with tons of people only in the chat. and then they would pretend it's live where it's actually not live. and i would, like, wanted to scream and say, Speaker 1: can't you Speaker 0: guys see that it's not live? like, we know. we're not stupid. we're we know this is not live. yeah. and and yeah. like, i i really just think the bs, uh, meter for neurodivergent people is is, you know, on a different level. Speaker 1: tolerance for it. Speaker 0: zero tolerance for Speaker 1: for and we can smell it from a mile away. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. you know? and there's that transparency and truth telling. right? Speaker 1: yeah. 100%. Speaker 0: 100%. Speaker 1: and so i think that for, uh, neurodivergent folks, like, when they're in business and they're trying to, you know, work on their marketing and their sales, everything about their business just needs to feel safe, you know, in their body. and if it feels a little icky or if it's there's something there, it's like it's really an an invitation to pause and check out what that might be about because you might be going down the path that is not gonna work for you. Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. like, right now, we were talking about from the marketing perspective, and then there's also from the buying perspective. and that's what you were addressing. it's like, how do i want to buy? how that how does it how should it feel in my body, uh, to to want to buy something and make a, you know, a a buying decision? i think what we're addressing is obviously the healed neurodivergent person. and what i'm seeing out there is is kind of this manipulation of the not of the non healed neurodivergent people where there's even more stress applied. and you you kind of mentioned that as well. right? and so they're buying out of anxiety. Speaker 1: that's right. Speaker 0: um, but then if you are the healed neurodivergent person, how how is that an integrity with what you're actually selling? right? yeah. Speaker 1: uh, to be honest, i don't even know what that means because neurodivergence is not something you heal or fix. Speaker 0: true. um, i guess it's just knowing having looked at it. like, would you say that someone who knows so whether it's an official diagnosis or just, you know, having looked at it more deeply, are they more able to deal with this anxiety because they Speaker 1: i mean, it's very it's often very relieving for people. i mean, especially for the adults i work with. right? because most of us have grown up thinking that we're we're not smart or not good enough or, you know, we're dumb at math or, you know, whatever it is. like, all these stories because you were not operating in the same way as other people. so oftentimes, when i work with clients and we move into this looks like a possible diagnosis for you, there's a lot of relief. there's a lot of like, oh, is that why that was so hard? or is that why i couldn't read? or is that why math is hard? or is that why socializing exhausts me? or, you know, whatever it is, it's like it becomes like this unraveling. right? and there's a lot of, you know, there's emotion to that. there's grief and, you know, that kind of a thing. but, you know, once you really embrace, like, this is who i am and you learn to work with your particular flavor, right, of neurodivergence, i i think that you can be very successful at just about anything. i don't, you know, i don't see why i should stand in your way. Speaker 0: and i guess that's what i meant by healed. you know? you just, like, learn who you truly are. and i think that's when you start to say no even more to the things that are not aligned with you. where before, like, what i'm seeing with my son, it's like, well, the pressure from the neuro normal side of the world is so hard that, you know, there's there's more push to know to just have to do what everybody else is doing, and then the anxiety, of course, goes up. and so if if i take this to the marketing thing, it's like, if you have not yet figured out truly who you are and and, you know, really stand with with that, then there's a big risk that you are feeling this anxiety every time you're being sold to or have to market. mhmm. so i guess that's where that pivot is. it's like, no. i'm not taking it anymore. i'm doing marketing my way, or i'm not buying from people who are trying to manipulate me and, you know, push me into scarcity and stuff thing things like that. Speaker 1: absolutely. manipulate me in any way. you know? i mean, one of the things that in general is kinda scary about the coaching world specifically is that it's it's so much based on pain point marketing, you know, and tapping into people's anxiety or stress or whatever it is that's going on and offering some kind of quick fix. Speaker 0: you know? Speaker 1: and it's like it's so unethical when it's so wrong because that's not the way human beings work. Speaker 0: no. yeah. totally. Speaker 1: no? yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. talking about this this coaching world, um, and and these pain points, that's another one of these words that need a a reframe. right? Speaker 1: absolutely. Speaker 0: because, yeah, that's what the old marketing is based on. it's like, let's make the pain points so bad. uh, you know, let's make you feel so shitty that you have to buy my solution. yeah. Speaker 1: it's like it's like it's like pouncing on a little innocent animal or something. you know, that's how how it feels for me. yeah. you know? yeah. no. absolutely not. terrible. Speaker 0: another thing is the the pricing, uh, discussion. yeah. and i think there is also this really need for transparency. can you speak to that? Speaker 1: 100%. that is absolutely necessary. you know, it's kinda what i was saying before even for myself. it's like, i want to know all of the data. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: and i want to know that, like, for myself on my own terms so that i can process it on my own. right? so if somebody doesn't have any pricing on their website, i will likely not work with them. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1: because i need that information upfront. otherwise, i will feel a little anxiety maybe, you know, about the possibility that if i get on a call with you, you might do some of these unethical things or things that just don't work for me and my body. right? like, now you're gonna talk about pricing, and now i have to do it right now, and i'm gonna get all anxious and Speaker 0: no. yeah. Speaker 1: i'm i'm very clear about that part. so, yes, for i think for neurodivergent folks, we want we want all of the information, as much information as you can give us, and then we can make our decision. Speaker 0: yeah. and give me time to make this. Speaker 1: need time. that's right. i don't need pressure. none of that will work. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: none of that will work. Speaker 0: yeah. in in a way, to me, neurodivergent people are, like, super smart, very conscious human beings. and the old way of marketing is taking people for stupid, really. it's like, oh, i can, you know, trick and sleaze you and you will never notice what i'm doing. and neurodivergent people are like, no, i'm not having this at all. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. yeah. that book is awesome. it's a superpower. Speaker 0: yeah, it really is. and in a way, you know, there's to me, there's no surprise that we're seeing more and more neurodivergency because we're really heading into this time of of of sovereignty of each individual being very, very individual, very authentic and very sovereign and and like showing up with that sovereignty and and, yeah, being able to make our own decisions, not just for buying stuff, but for for everything. and i think that's a very yeah. it's a beautiful vision of the world to to think of humans like that. Speaker 1: mhmm. no. i agree. meeting each other on that place. right? Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and having sales conversations in that kind of, um, yeah, with with that basis is a completely different thing than, like i, uh, mentioned before where, you know, i just read a script and don't even care, you know, if we've talked before or whatever. so right. it's just Speaker 1: or i look at you like dollar signs. Speaker 0: oh, yeah. yeah. that's another one. right? Speaker 1: and it's like, i i can't i can't do that. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: i just, like, i physically can't do that. i have to look at you as a person, you know, and and just show you what i have and then give you that agency, you know, to decide whether this is the right fit for you. Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. yeah. sovereignty, agency, beautiful words. Speaker 1: mhmm. yes. yeah. so no pressure, you know, from me. Speaker 0: yeah. what about, you know, other boundaries that you have learned to set for yourself as an entrepreneur, as a marketer, maybe, but but just, yeah, finding that inner peace and being being able to keep showing up without anxiety? Speaker 1: yeah. well, i mean, i think that it could kinda goes back to what i was saying before. right? that to me, the word that comes up is embrace. right? it's not fixed. it's embrace. embrace that this is how your nervous system is wired. right? this is how you were born, and this is how you operate in the world. right? because when we resist, right, it creates tension and stress and anxiety. and i know that's not easy and it takes time, but i think that that's, you know, step one is accept that this is who you are. right? except that, you know, for me, it's like, oh, i don't really want a lot of loud noises or i have to be careful about how much time i spend in group environments or, you know, how much time am i spending in front of my computer or how much time am i spending outside. it's like all of these things around my sensory stuff, my particular version of it and what that looks like for me. but i think that having a lot of boundaries is really important because we need so much more time to recover yeah. of things. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: mhmm. and giving yourself permission to do that. this this is literally a physical thing that is happening to you. and if you push your body past that, that typically doesn't go well. creates more stress. you know? Speaker 0: exactly. it's creating that spaciousness, uh, for you to be human because you are, yeah, a unique human being who has unique needs. yeah. and that's the whole Speaker 1: and you yeah. and you are the only one that can decide, like, what your level of care needs to be. yeah. you're the only one convinced by that. you know? what are your office hours? when do you respond? you know? what are your boundaries with people in your business? what are your boundaries with yourself? Speaker 0: yeah. it actually starts with yourself because otherwise, you're not walking your dog. Speaker 1: right? exactly. exactly. but i think that's the best way that we can, you know, take care of ourselves. and and sometimes we have to, you know, kinda like what your son was saying, it's really hard because sometimes we have to explain these things to people. you know? like, because somebody might look at me and go, but what's the big deal about another evening meeting this week? Speaker 0: yeah. i get that all the time. Speaker 1: yeah. and it's like, well, basically, my head feels like it's gonna explode. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: so that's a no for me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: right? in my body, i do not feel the capacity, the energy at all to do it. yeah. and i will pay a consequence for that. i might, like, be out for a couple days just laying laying around, staring at a wall or something. mhmm. mhmm. just to recover. like, less of, uh, decreasing my stimulation just to be able to recover from overdoing, overstimulating myself. yeah. Speaker 0: let's wrap up with something like positive, a positive outlook on how yeah. the world would look differently if we had all this humane marketing led by neurodivergent people. Speaker 1: that sounds great. businesses according Speaker 0: to the new rules by neurodivergent people. that would not feel look like. Speaker 1: uh, that just makes my heart sore, you know, just to imagine that, you know, because if sensitive people around the world right? and if if our skill set of thinking things through slowing down, you know, really taking the time to make a decision, you know, an informed decision that's rooted in, like, how it feels for you, like, my goodness. the the the possibilities are endless of how the world could change. Speaker 0: it's so different. right? Speaker 1: and i do think that, you know, what gives me hope, you know, in the present is that this next generation of kids and young people have all of this information at their disposal. so my hope, right, is that this generation can grow up not feeling like they're dumb or like there's something wrong with them, that they'll just own that as part of who they are from the very beginning. right? which is the opposite of what i see with so many adults. Speaker 0: you know? Speaker 1: so many of the adults i work with, and we're talking ceos. we're talking big people that are like, oh my goodness. is this what's been going on all this time? you know? but they grew up feeling less than or feeling like they had to mask or feeling like they had to work 10 times harder than everybody else, you know, push themselves. you know? that's just thing. and and they're really feeling the consequence of that Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: in their bodies, in their lives. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: so that's one thing that gives me hope, you know, is that this new generation, it's like, wow. you guys have all of that in your little hands. that's amazing. Speaker 0: yeah. and, also, like, they're just not having it. they're like they look at us, see what we created, and they're like, i'm not having that, that, that. Speaker 1: so why would i do that? Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. like you said, that that gives us lots of hope. yeah. Speaker 1: because there's much more permission. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. well, i think we need to continue this conversation in episode two around just kinda like today, we talked a lot about marketing. maybe we can just talk about entrepreneurship for neurodivergent people because there's a lot of, um, people out there who are, you know, really bringing these new concepts, new ideas. and i think it'd be interesting to continue the conversation. Speaker 1: i think it's actually a really important conversation to have. Speaker 0: yeah. well, for now, why don't you share with people how you work with them, where they can find you, and all of that? Speaker 1: yeah. so, you know, i work both with individuals and groups and organizations. right? so with individuals, it's about, you know, understanding their neurodivergency and if there's any, you know, obstacles related to that, like feeling less than, feeling not good enough, feeling like you have to over perform, you know, whatever the behavior is that, um, interferes, we really look at that and address that so that people can live with, you know, ideally less stress and just feeling better in general about life, you know. and with groups and organizations, i really love to bring in the inclusion component of having neurodivergent folk in your organization because one in four people falls under the neurodivergent umbrella. that's a lot of people. yeah. right? so if you're looking at your organization and and it's hard because it shows up as communication issues a lot of the time or, you know, things that look like performance issues in in an organizational environment when really this person is just struggling with some kind of neurodivergence. and when that's addressed, then they can go they can become a peak performer employee just like everybody else. yeah. yeah. people can find me on my website. they can look for me on linkedin. i'm also on instagram. you know? so and please and Speaker 0: your website is myriammartinezcocoaching.com. correct? Speaker 1: it is. yes. thank you. mhmm. and, yeah, please don't hesitate to reach out around any anything related to neurodivergent. Speaker 0: wonderful. well, to be continued. yeah. thanks so much for, yeah, sharing this. it was amazing. Speaker 1: thank you, sarah.

Neurodivergent Marketing is a real-talk conversation with Myriam Martinez for neurodivergent entrepreneurs who want marketing that fits their nervous system. We unpack why masking turns marketing into performance and how overload and pace create the real friction. We name the trust breakers (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) and offer humane swaps: "signpost" instead of lead magnet, "people who clicked" instead of conversions, and publishing prices, totals, and time needs before any call. Expect consent-led sales calls, boundaries as care, and Neurodivergent strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—as positioning superpowers so people can choose with bodily safety, time, and agency. The outcome: a sustainable, sovereign, and humane way to market. In this episode we discussed: How many of us discover neurodivergence through our families and feel relief naming it. Why masking in life makes "performing" in marketing extra exhausting. That overload and pace are the core friction—not a mindset issue. How old marketing norms (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) violate trust. Reframing jargon into human words: "lead magnet" → "signpost," "conversions" → "people who clicked." Why transparency matters: publish prices, totals, and time needs before any call. How ND strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—become positioning superpowers. That buyers need bodily safety, time, and agency to choose. Why consent-led sales calls beat scripts and simulation. Boundaries as care: limited meetings, clear hours, recovery time after stimulation. Embracing your wiring (not fixing it) reduces anxiety and increases sustainability. A hopeful future: a rising generation that won't tolerate manipulation and leads with sovereignty. Watch this episode on YouTube -- Speaker 0: miriam, it's good to have you back. welcome to the humane marketing podcast. Speaker 1: sarah, i'm so happy to be back on your podcast. Speaker 0: back in my house. right? we just yes. it's just like having a conversation in my house. yes. Speaker 1: yes. exactly. Speaker 0: yeah. so you've been on the show before, but this time we decided to talk about neurodivergent marketing, which is something that i'm super excited about and especially to talk about it with you, um, because you went through this own little transformation and awakening or how would you call it? yeah. Speaker 1: i mean, it's an awakening or rediscovery, you know, in a way of who i am, who i really am at my core, and how that impacts everything that i do. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. because we, uh, worked together a few years back. and back then, it was very much focused on women and well-being, the work that you were doing. and so tell us a little bit how that has changed over the most recent months, year. Speaker 1: yeah. so like most adults, it started with my kids' diagnoses of adhd and becoming more curious about it. you know, i'm a therapist, so i i'm i always understood the diagnosis. you know, i understood it in that way, maybe, like, in a more removed way. but once it was in my home, you know, and i was really living with it, i obviously became much more curious about it. you know? and then it turns out that, you know, my husband is adhd, and it's like, oh, look at them. they're like two peas in a pod. you know? um, and so i started doing more training around this because i wanted to be more supportive for people around this. and quickly, i started to see some traits, you know, show up for me. and for me, it's a really interesting cross between autism and adhd, which there's a term that's floating around out there called adhd. and that's not a diagnosis. right? but it just reflects that there's this cross between these two worlds sometimes. and, you know, we're learning all the time about neurodivergence, you know, and how it shows up and it's so different for everybody. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. thanks for sharing your story. and it kinda went very similarly for me. like for the longest time, we, you know, didn't know, uh, what my son was experiencing. and for i first thought, well, introvert like, back in the days, we just talked about introverts, extroverts. yep. and then all of a sudden this term hsp came up and i discovered, oh, i'm a highly sensitive person. and so i thought, oh, that's probably what he is as well. and and and then, you know, as it kept as we kept discovering more and, you know, thank god we have so much information out there now and youtube videos and all of that. it's it's so helpful. i don't know. well, i guess that's a big reason why back in the days it wasn't discovered. right? i'm pretty sure my dad is autistic, but how would he have known if if there wasn't that much content out there and diagnosis? and and so, yeah, learning it about my son that he's on the spectrum and then pretty sure my husband is too. and and so just, yeah, finding out more and more and and then working with clients who have adhd or, um, you know, our hsps, neurodivergency. and so i think i couldn't think of a better person than you to have this conversation around marketing because that's really what we worked on together as well. and, like, just i remember your expression of frustration around this thing that we call marketing and and how it just, like, your brain was, like, going against it and you're like, no. Speaker 1: in all the ways. yeah. i could not process it. Speaker 0: yeah. exactly. so if we if you maybe think back to that time, but then also just to generalize, what do you think like, why is marketing the old way of marketing? right? why is that so counterintuitive for, uh, people on the neurodivergent spectrum? why do they react like you did? whereas, like, i just don't get it. why would we do this like that? Speaker 1: right. right. no. exactly. um, it's it's multilayered. right? because when we're talking about neurodivergence, we're talking about a variety of different disorders and diagnoses. right? so that could include autism, adhd, dyslexia, dyscalculia, which is, you know, having a hard time with numbers or number concepts, dyspraxia, which is having a lot of uncoordination in your body, right, tourette's. i mean, there's such a list that falls under neurodivergence. so when we talk about these generals, i wanna make sure that i put that disclaimer out there that it's not necessarily applicable to everybody under that umbrella. but that in general, really what it comes down to is sensory overload. like, it's just too much. it's too and and then pace. it's too fast. it's too fast moving. we can't process. i mean, which which is how i started this conversation. right? i was like, i can't process this. it was too much. it was too much. you know? and what's hard when you are experiencing neurodivergence, but you don't know that that's what's happening is that you're comparing yourself to the neurotypical world, which is looking at you like, what's the big deal? yeah. i don't understand what your problem is. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: right? and so i really struggled with my self esteem around my business, for myself. like, can i even do this? because i can't do these things. i'm having a hard time. it's you know? and then you have people telling you it's a mindset issue. you know? and it's like, no. i literally can't understand this concept. right? so it's so much of it is that sensory piece, like i said, and just it's too fast and short deadlines and pressure. and it's just not something that works with the neurodivergent nervous system. we're much more sensitive than that. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. and what i experience also from, you know, when i hear back from clients is is this authenticity piece. so as we know, uh, there's a lot of masking that needs to happen for or not needs to, but is happening for neurodivergent peoples in order to fit in. right? Speaker 1: it's part of survival. Speaker 0: and yeah. exactly. and so and so it almost seems like, well, they have to wear this mask all the time to survive, to fit in. and so they are kind of, like, revolting against having to wear this mask as well in the marketing field and in the business field. it's just, like, so exhausting to to do that. Speaker 1: it's so exhausting. yeah. absolutely. and and i do think that it it's it's 10 times more exhausting when you don't know what's going on. you know? so a lot of the work that i do with adults, right, is help them see that they are probably under this umbrella. right? and we start looking at some of their behaviors, right, and their patterns. and then quickly together, we can identify, oh, yeah. it looks like maybe you're adhd or it looks like maybe you fall under autism or, you know, whatever it is. or maybe there's more than one thing going on, you know, adhd with dyslexia. right? dyscalculia is something that's, you know, relatively new in terms of, um, of a term that's used out there. right? and for me personally, i mean, i think i i'm a i i might have cried when i heard that term. you know? it was like, oh, right. so it's not that i'm dumb. it's not that i'm not a, quote, unquote, math person. like, my brain literally has a hard time processing numbers and number concepts just like a dyslexic can't see letters in the right form. it's the same. Speaker 0: yeah. and here we are, you know, in marketing, keep telling people to not the numbers so much, but the the content i'm thinking of, like, keep creating all this content. well, you know, uh, if you have dyslexia, writing and reading is definitely not part of the things that you enjoy doing. and so, again, if you compare yourself to the neurotypical people, you're you start to think, well, what's wrong with me? how can i how can how come i can't do this? Speaker 1: that's right. and then that really interferes. right? you can see how then that really starts to interfere. yeah. 100%. and for me, in marketing, there's always a lot of talk about budget. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: yeah. and then just the word sends my nervous system into a state, you know. and if you start talking to me about budgets or asking me or start talk throwing any kind of numbers at me in any way, my brain will just completely shut down. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: it just won't it just won't let it in, and you'll probably see a really blank look come across my face. Speaker 0: yeah. but just or or even, like, conversion rates. right? how does that make you feel? Speaker 1: so scary. so scary. Speaker 0: yeah. it's all these metrics, like the the linear linear and kind of like Speaker 1: yeah. that's really, really Speaker 0: masculine way of of doing marketing was all based on on numbers and conversions and Speaker 1: right. Speaker 0: yeah. roi is another one of those terms. you're like, uh. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. totally. and if Speaker 1: i hadn't discovered this, i i might have given up. i might have just said, i guess this isn't for me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: or or i guess i'm just i can't do it or i'm not good at it. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: right? Speaker 0: so so let's turn it around then. like yes. what kind of, you know, strengths do neurodivergent people have and can bring to this idea of business building and and marketing and and connecting and communicating, really, because that's what we're talking about. Speaker 1: yeah. i know. i love this part. this part gets me really excited, you know. but i think that, you know, again, a little mini disclaimer is that sometimes the strengths are, like, they're double edged swords. sometimes they also create stress. you know? so for example, one thing that, um, neurodivergence bring is a lot of, um, focus on detail. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1: right? and pattern recognition. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and being able to take that information and then create a concept. you know? um, and that's amazing. that's an amazing skill, you know, when it's applied well. and and then we might focus too much on a detail. right? or go Speaker 0: down a little bit. to procrastination as well because it needs to be perfect into every detail. Speaker 1: yeah. and, you know, i wanna i wanna separate those two things because perfectionism is more under the category of anxiety. mhmm. right? and so when we're dealing with, um, neurodivergence, we we are also experiencing things like anxiety. so it becomes much more challenging, right, when we're dealing with these multiple layers at the same time. you know? but i do think that if we can keep looking at the at what the strengths are in this, you know, like, really deep focus. right? directness and honesty. you know? we don't really like small talk or anything that's not deep, essentially. right? and we'd have a hard time not being honest. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: you know? it really becomes a moral dilemma. and so that's those are things that i think are really beautiful about, um, people under the narrow neurodivergent umbrella. right? there's also the creativity Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and out of the box thinking. Speaker 0: yeah. very much so. mhmm. and i think that's what you really played into it. right? it's like because you have that creative part of yourself and you've figured out how do i bring that to my marketing. i remember back in the days when you used to follow, you know, the these, um, kind of templates of creating canva visuals. yeah. it just all looks the same. let's be honest. right? Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. Speaker 0: and then all of a sudden you started to bring in your art and, you know, more of your pictures and you could tell, wow, she's really having fun with this. and that's the that's the creative side. um, yeah. so much Speaker 1: so for me, i have to change some of the terms. right? and and it kinda maybe speaks to, like, how we market to neurodivergent folk. you know? because if you use the word conversion rate, then my heart rate goes up, and i'm gonna have a shutdown. right? but if you say, how many people, right, or this many people clicked on your site, and then this is what happened after that, then i got it. i can totally follow that pattern. right? so it's again, sometimes the wording, sometimes, uh, too much of a relationship to mathematical concepts or overwhelm, overload. right? that kind of a thing. Speaker 0: basically, concepts that society accepted as being marketing concepts and ideas. Speaker 1: mhmm. Speaker 0: and that you are like, who said that was a concept? like, explain it to me what that means in in, like, full sentences. Speaker 1: yeah. which is very much a lot in the autism range. yeah. you know, like, we really want to know the detail. how did we get there? i really wanna understand the the process. right. right. and then i can really integrate the information. Speaker 0: right. yeah. i get it. yeah. yeah. what i noticed myself doing a lot, um, on the blog is taking some of these old paradigm terms, uh, from marketing, like lead magnet. right? most people have heard of lead magnets. but what does that even mean? like, it's such a weird kind of term where we're sucking people in with a magnet. and so turning that into signposts where we are guiding people to to make a a buying decision, for example, or to come into our world. but i find that i need to use the old word and then juxtaposition it to the new words so that, you know, i can help make that that journey over the bridge, like, to to help people understand, yeah, this is maybe what you've heard, but it doesn't feel good. and so here's an alternative. here's a different word for it. Speaker 1: mhmm. mhmm. Speaker 0: so, uh, i i hear from you that that's helpful. right? like, coming up with new language around marketing that what and then prompts our nervous system as well. Speaker 1: that's right. and so much of the self care is, like, being able to notice that something does create agitation for you. right? and rather than question it or put yourself down for it, it's like, okay. it's just that my nervous system is not liking this for some reason. let's see what what i can do about that. right? Speaker 0: right. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. like, what other things that you have experienced in in business? like, let's think about sales, for example, uh, where you feel like there's been a certain norm. again, these norms. right? that, uh, neurodivergent people are like, i don't get these norms. like but there are some kind of norms. like, let's take a a sales call, uh, that feels very scripted, uh, where you are on the call and you you can cut you've like, what my son always says, he's like, feels like we're in a simulation. not necessarily in a sales call, but i'm sure he would say that if the person just kinda goes blah blah blah through the sales script. and you're like, is he even talking to me? like, is this is this for real? like yeah. Speaker 1: do you Speaker 0: have any other kind of business concept things that you feel like, yeah, that's just not for neurodivergent people. Speaker 1: oh, yeah. i mean, let's start with the scarcity countdowns. Speaker 0: uh, yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: right? what my body does with that is it shuts down. Speaker 0: creates so much anxiety. right? Speaker 1: yeah. absolutely. you know? and for some people, it it it will work, so to speak, you know, quote, unquote. it will create such stress in someone that they'll that they'll buy the the coaching package or, you know, whatever it is. but that's kinda icky. right? and it's the opposite of humane marketing. so that those kinds of things, you know, are not for the neurodivergent. i don't think they're for anybody, but that's my personal opinion. you know? yeah. Speaker 0: my opinion too. Speaker 1: that's why we're here. yeah. right? Speaker 0: another example that comes to mind i don't know if that is still happening, uh, out there. but back in the days, they would have these webinars, huge webinars with tons of people only in the chat. and then they would pretend it's live where it's actually not live. and i would, like, wanted to scream and say, Speaker 1: can't you Speaker 0: guys see that it's not live? like, we know. we're not stupid. we're we know this is not live. yeah. and and yeah. like, i i really just think the bs, uh, meter for neurodivergent people is is, you know, on a different level. Speaker 1: tolerance for it. Speaker 0: zero tolerance for Speaker 1: for and we can smell it from a mile away. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. you know? and there's that transparency and truth telling. right? Speaker 1: yeah. 100%. Speaker 0: 100%. Speaker 1: and so i think that for, uh, neurodivergent folks, like, when they're in business and they're trying to, you know, work on their marketing and their sales, everything about their business just needs to feel safe, you know, in their body. and if it feels a little icky or if it's there's something there, it's like it's really an an invitation to pause and check out what that might be about because you might be going down the path that is not gonna work for you. Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. like, right now, we were talking about from the marketing perspective, and then there's also from the buying perspective. and that's what you were addressing. it's like, how do i want to buy? how that how does it how should it feel in my body, uh, to to want to buy something and make a, you know, a a buying decision? i think what we're addressing is obviously the healed neurodivergent person. and what i'm seeing out there is is kind of this manipulation of the not of the non healed neurodivergent people where there's even more stress applied. and you you kind of mentioned that as well. right? and so they're buying out of anxiety. Speaker 1: that's right. Speaker 0: um, but then if you are the healed neurodivergent person, how how is that an integrity with what you're actually selling? right? yeah. Speaker 1: uh, to be honest, i don't even know what that means because neurodivergence is not something you heal or fix. Speaker 0: true. um, i guess it's just knowing having looked at it. like, would you say that someone who knows so whether it's an official diagnosis or just, you know, having looked at it more deeply, are they more able to deal with this anxiety because they Speaker 1: i mean, it's very it's often very relieving for people. i mean, especially for the adults i work with. right? because most of us have grown up thinking that we're we're not smart or not good enough or, you know, we're dumb at math or, you know, whatever it is. like, all these stories because you were not operating in the same way as other people. so oftentimes, when i work with clients and we move into this looks like a possible diagnosis for you, there's a lot of relief. there's a lot of like, oh, is that why that was so hard? or is that why i couldn't read? or is that why math is hard? or is that why socializing exhausts me? or, you know, whatever it is, it's like it becomes like this unraveling. right? and there's a lot of, you know, there's emotion to that. there's grief and, you know, that kind of a thing. but, you know, once you really embrace, like, this is who i am and you learn to work with your particular flavor, right, of neurodivergence, i i think that you can be very successful at just about anything. i don't, you know, i don't see why i should stand in your way. Speaker 0: and i guess that's what i meant by healed. you know? you just, like, learn who you truly are. and i think that's when you start to say no even more to the things that are not aligned with you. where before, like, what i'm seeing with my son, it's like, well, the pressure from the neuro normal side of the world is so hard that, you know, there's there's more push to know to just have to do what everybody else is doing, and then the anxiety, of course, goes up. and so if if i take this to the marketing thing, it's like, if you have not yet figured out truly who you are and and, you know, really stand with with that, then there's a big risk that you are feeling this anxiety every time you're being sold to or have to market. mhmm. so i guess that's where that pivot is. it's like, no. i'm not taking it anymore. i'm doing marketing my way, or i'm not buying from people who are trying to manipulate me and, you know, push me into scarcity and stuff thing things like that. Speaker 1: absolutely. manipulate me in any way. you know? i mean, one of the things that in general is kinda scary about the coaching world specifically is that it's it's so much based on pain point marketing, you know, and tapping into people's anxiety or stress or whatever it is that's going on and offering some kind of quick fix. Speaker 0: you know? Speaker 1: and it's like it's so unethical when it's so wrong because that's not the way human beings work. Speaker 0: no. yeah. totally. Speaker 1: no? yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. talking about this this coaching world, um, and and these pain points, that's another one of these words that need a a reframe. right? Speaker 1: absolutely. Speaker 0: because, yeah, that's what the old marketing is based on. it's like, let's make the pain points so bad. uh, you know, let's make you feel so shitty that you have to buy my solution. yeah. Speaker 1: it's like it's like it's like pouncing on a little innocent animal or something. you know, that's how how it feels for me. yeah. you know? yeah. no. absolutely not. terrible. Speaker 0: another thing is the the pricing, uh, discussion. yeah. and i think there is also this really need for transparency. can you speak to that? Speaker 1: 100%. that is absolutely necessary. you know, it's kinda what i was saying before even for myself. it's like, i want to know all of the data. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: and i want to know that, like, for myself on my own terms so that i can process it on my own. right? so if somebody doesn't have any pricing on their website, i will likely not work with them. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1: because i need that information upfront. otherwise, i will feel a little anxiety maybe, you know, about the possibility that if i get on a call with you, you might do some of these unethical things or things that just don't work for me and my body. right? like, now you're gonna talk about pricing, and now i have to do it right now, and i'm gonna get all anxious and Speaker 0: no. yeah. Speaker 1: i'm i'm very clear about that part. so, yes, for i think for neurodivergent folks, we want we want all of the information, as much information as you can give us, and then we can make our decision. Speaker 0: yeah. and give me time to make this. Speaker 1: need time. that's right. i don't need pressure. none of that will work. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: none of that will work. Speaker 0: yeah. in in a way, to me, neurodivergent people are, like, super smart, very conscious human beings. and the old way of marketing is taking people for stupid, really. it's like, oh, i can, you know, trick and sleaze you and you will never notice what i'm doing. and neurodivergent people are like, no, i'm not having this at all. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. yeah. that book is awesome. it's a superpower. Speaker 0: yeah, it really is. and in a way, you know, there's to me, there's no surprise that we're seeing more and more neurodivergency because we're really heading into this time of of of sovereignty of each individual being very, very individual, very authentic and very sovereign and and like showing up with that sovereignty and and, yeah, being able to make our own decisions, not just for buying stuff, but for for everything. and i think that's a very yeah. it's a beautiful vision of the world to to think of humans like that. Speaker 1: mhmm. no. i agree. meeting each other on that place. right? Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and having sales conversations in that kind of, um, yeah, with with that basis is a completely different thing than, like i, uh, mentioned before where, you know, i just read a script and don't even care, you know, if we've talked before or whatever. so right. it's just Speaker 1: or i look at you like dollar signs. Speaker 0: oh, yeah. yeah. that's another one. right? Speaker 1: and it's like, i i can't i can't do that. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: i just, like, i physically can't do that. i have to look at you as a person, you know, and and just show you what i have and then give you that agency, you know, to decide whether this is the right fit for you. Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. yeah. sovereignty, agency, beautiful words. Speaker 1: mhmm. yes. yeah. so no pressure, you know, from me. Speaker 0: yeah. what about, you know, other boundaries that you have learned to set for yourself as an entrepreneur, as a marketer, maybe, but but just, yeah, finding that inner peace and being being able to keep showing up without anxiety? Speaker 1: yeah. well, i mean, i think that it could kinda goes back to what i was saying before. right? that to me, the word that comes up is embrace. right? it's not fixed. it's embrace. embrace that this is how your nervous system is wired. right? this is how you were born, and this is how you operate in the world. right? because when we resist, right, it creates tension and stress and anxiety. and i know that's not easy and it takes time, but i think that that's, you know, step one is accept that this is who you are. right? except that, you know, for me, it's like, oh, i don't really want a lot of loud noises or i have to be careful about how much time i spend in group environments or, you know, how much time am i spending in front of my computer or how much time am i spending outside. it's like all of these things around my sensory stuff, my particular version of it and what that looks like for me. but i think that having a lot of boundaries is really important because we need so much more time to recover yeah. of things. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: mhmm. and giving yourself permission to do that. this this is literally a physical thing that is happening to you. and if you push your body past that, that typically doesn't go well. creates more stress. you know? Speaker 0: exactly. it's creating that spaciousness, uh, for you to be human because you are, yeah, a unique human being who has unique needs. yeah. and that's the whole Speaker 1: and you yeah. and you are the only one that can decide, like, what your level of care needs to be. yeah. you're the only one convinced by that. you know? what are your office hours? when do you respond? you know? what are your boundaries with people in your business? what are your boundaries with yourself? Speaker 0: yeah. it actually starts with yourself because otherwise, you're not walking your dog. Speaker 1: right? exactly. exactly. but i think that's the best way that we can, you know, take care of ourselves. and and sometimes we have to, you know, kinda like what your son was saying, it's really hard because sometimes we have to explain these things to people. you know? like, because somebody might look at me and go, but what's the big deal about another evening meeting this week? Speaker 0: yeah. i get that all the time. Speaker 1: yeah. and it's like, well, basically, my head feels like it's gonna explode. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: so that's a no for me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: right? in my body, i do not feel the capacity, the energy at all to do it. yeah. and i will pay a consequence for that. i might, like, be out for a couple days just laying laying around, staring at a wall or something. mhmm. mhmm. just to recover. like, less of, uh, decreasing my stimulation just to be able to recover from overdoing, overstimulating myself. yeah. Speaker 0: let's wrap up with something like positive, a positive outlook on how yeah. the world would look differently if we had all this humane marketing led by neurodivergent people. Speaker 1: that sounds great. businesses according Speaker 0: to the new rules by neurodivergent people. that would not feel look like. Speaker 1: uh, that just makes my heart sore, you know, just to imagine that, you know, because if sensitive people around the world right? and if if our skill set of thinking things through slowing down, you know, really taking the time to make a decision, you know, an informed decision that's rooted in, like, how it feels for you, like, my goodness. the the the possibilities are endless of how the world could change. Speaker 0: it's so different. right? Speaker 1: and i do think that, you know, what gives me hope, you know, in the present is that this next generation of kids and young people have all of this information at their disposal. so my hope, right, is that this generation can grow up not feeling like they're dumb or like there's something wrong with them, that they'll just own that as part of who they are from the very beginning. right? which is the opposite of what i see with so many adults. Speaker 0: you know? Speaker 1: so many of the adults i work with, and we're talking ceos. we're talking big people that are like, oh my goodness. is this what's been going on all this time? you know? but they grew up feeling less than or feeling like they had to mask or feeling like they had to work 10 times harder than everybody else, you know, push themselves. you know? that's just thing. and and they're really feeling the consequence of that Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: in their bodies, in their lives. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: so that's one thing that gives me hope, you know, is that this new generation, it's like, wow. you guys have all of that in your little hands. that's amazing. Speaker 0: yeah. and, also, like, they're just not having it. they're like they look at us, see what we created, and they're like, i'm not having that, that, that. Speaker 1: so why would i do that? Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. like you said, that that gives us lots of hope. yeah. Speaker 1: because there's much more permission. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. well, i think we need to continue this conversation in episode two around just kinda like today, we talked a lot about marketing. maybe we can just talk about entrepreneurship for neurodivergent people because there's a lot of, um, people out there who are, you know, really bringing these new concepts, new ideas. and i think it'd be interesting to continue the conversation. Speaker 1: i think it's actually a really important conversation to have. Speaker 0: yeah. well, for now, why don't you share with people how you work with them, where they can find you, and all of that? Speaker 1: yeah. so, you know, i work both with individuals and groups and organizations. right? so with individuals, it's about, you know, understanding their neurodivergency and if there's any, you know, obstacles related to that, like feeling less than, feeling not good enough, feeling like you have to over perform, you know, whatever the behavior is that, um, interferes, we really look at that and address that so that people can live with, you know, ideally less stress and just feeling better in general about life, you know. and with groups and organizations, i really love to bring in the inclusion component of having neurodivergent folk in your organization because one in four people falls under the neurodivergent umbrella. that's a lot of people. yeah. right? so if you're looking at your organization and and it's hard because it shows up as communication issues a lot of the time or, you know, things that look like performance issues in in an organizational environment when really this person is just struggling with some kind of neurodivergence. and when that's addressed, then they can go they can become a peak performer employee just like everybody else. yeah. yeah. people can find me on my website. they can look for me on linkedin. i'm also on instagram. you know? so and please and Speaker 0: your website is myriammartinezcocoaching.com. correct? Speaker 1: it is. yes. thank you. mhmm. and, yeah, please don't hesitate to reach out around any anything related to neurodivergent. Speaker 0: wonderful. well, to be continued. yeah. thanks so much for, yeah, sharing this. it was amazing. Speaker 1: thank you, sarah.

Neurodivergent Marketing is a real-talk conversation with Myriam Martinez for neurodivergent entrepreneurs who want marketing that fits their nervous system. We unpack why masking turns marketing into performance and how overload and pace create the real friction. We name the trust breakers (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) and offer humane swaps: "signpost" instead of lead magnet, "people who clicked" instead of conversions, and publishing prices, totals, and time needs before any call. Expect consent-led sales calls, boundaries as care, and Neurodivergent strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—as positioning superpowers so people can choose with bodily safety, time, and agency. The outcome: a sustainable, sovereign, and humane way to market. In this episode we discussed: How many of us discover neurodivergence through our families and feel relief naming it. Why masking in life makes "performing" in marketing extra exhausting. That overload and pace are the core friction—not a mindset issue. How old marketing norms (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) violate trust. Reframing jargon into human words: "lead magnet" → "signpost," "conversions" → "people who clicked." Why transparency matters: publish prices, totals, and time needs before any call. How ND strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—become positioning superpowers. That buyers need bodily safety, time, and agency to choose. Why consent-led sales calls beat scripts and simulation. Boundaries as care: limited meetings, clear hours, recovery time after stimulation. Embracing your wiring (not fixing it) reduces anxiety and increases sustainability. A hopeful future: a rising generation that won't tolerate manipulation and leads with sovereignty. Watch this episode on YouTube -- Speaker 0: miriam, it's good to have you back. welcome to the humane marketing podcast. Speaker 1: sarah, i'm so happy to be back on your podcast. Speaker 0: back in my house. right? we just yes. it's just like having a conversation in my house. yes. Speaker 1: yes. exactly. Speaker 0: yeah. so you've been on the show before, but this time we decided to talk about neurodivergent marketing, which is something that i'm super excited about and especially to talk about it with you, um, because you went through this own little transformation and awakening or how would you call it? yeah. Speaker 1: i mean, it's an awakening or rediscovery, you know, in a way of who i am, who i really am at my core, and how that impacts everything that i do. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. because we, uh, worked together a few years back. and back then, it was very much focused on women and well-being, the work that you were doing. and so tell us a little bit how that has changed over the most recent months, year. Speaker 1: yeah. so like most adults, it started with my kids' diagnoses of adhd and becoming more curious about it. you know, i'm a therapist, so i i'm i always understood the diagnosis. you know, i understood it in that way, maybe, like, in a more removed way. but once it was in my home, you know, and i was really living with it, i obviously became much more curious about it. you know? and then it turns out that, you know, my husband is adhd, and it's like, oh, look at them. they're like two peas in a pod. you know? um, and so i started doing more training around this because i wanted to be more supportive for people around this. and quickly, i started to see some traits, you know, show up for me. and for me, it's a really interesting cross between autism and adhd, which there's a term that's floating around out there called adhd. and that's not a diagnosis. right? but it just reflects that there's this cross between these two worlds sometimes. and, you know, we're learning all the time about neurodivergence, you know, and how it shows up and it's so different for everybody. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. thanks for sharing your story. and it kinda went very similarly for me. like for the longest time, we, you know, didn't know, uh, what my son was experiencing. and for i first thought, well, introvert like, back in the days, we just talked about introverts, extroverts. yep. and then all of a sudden this term hsp came up and i discovered, oh, i'm a highly sensitive person. and so i thought, oh, that's probably what he is as well. and and and then, you know, as it kept as we kept discovering more and, you know, thank god we have so much information out there now and youtube videos and all of that. it's it's so helpful. i don't know. well, i guess that's a big reason why back in the days it wasn't discovered. right? i'm pretty sure my dad is autistic, but how would he have known if if there wasn't that much content out there and diagnosis? and and so, yeah, learning it about my son that he's on the spectrum and then pretty sure my husband is too. and and so just, yeah, finding out more and more and and then working with clients who have adhd or, um, you know, our hsps, neurodivergency. and so i think i couldn't think of a better person than you to have this conversation around marketing because that's really what we worked on together as well. and, like, just i remember your expression of frustration around this thing that we call marketing and and how it just, like, your brain was, like, going against it and you're like, no. Speaker 1: in all the ways. yeah. i could not process it. Speaker 0: yeah. exactly. so if we if you maybe think back to that time, but then also just to generalize, what do you think like, why is marketing the old way of marketing? right? why is that so counterintuitive for, uh, people on the neurodivergent spectrum? why do they react like you did? whereas, like, i just don't get it. why would we do this like that? Speaker 1: right. right. no. exactly. um, it's it's multilayered. right? because when we're talking about neurodivergence, we're talking about a variety of different disorders and diagnoses. right? so that could include autism, adhd, dyslexia, dyscalculia, which is, you know, having a hard time with numbers or number concepts, dyspraxia, which is having a lot of uncoordination in your body, right, tourette's. i mean, there's such a list that falls under neurodivergence. so when we talk about these generals, i wanna make sure that i put that disclaimer out there that it's not necessarily applicable to everybody under that umbrella. but that in general, really what it comes down to is sensory overload. like, it's just too much. it's too and and then pace. it's too fast. it's too fast moving. we can't process. i mean, which which is how i started this conversation. right? i was like, i can't process this. it was too much. it was too much. you know? and what's hard when you are experiencing neurodivergence, but you don't know that that's what's happening is that you're comparing yourself to the neurotypical world, which is looking at you like, what's the big deal? yeah. i don't understand what your problem is. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: right? and so i really struggled with my self esteem around my business, for myself. like, can i even do this? because i can't do these things. i'm having a hard time. it's you know? and then you have people telling you it's a mindset issue. you know? and it's like, no. i literally can't understand this concept. right? so it's so much of it is that sensory piece, like i said, and just it's too fast and short deadlines and pressure. and it's just not something that works with the neurodivergent nervous system. we're much more sensitive than that. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. and what i experience also from, you know, when i hear back from clients is is this authenticity piece. so as we know, uh, there's a lot of masking that needs to happen for or not needs to, but is happening for neurodivergent peoples in order to fit in. right? Speaker 1: it's part of survival. Speaker 0: and yeah. exactly. and so and so it almost seems like, well, they have to wear this mask all the time to survive, to fit in. and so they are kind of, like, revolting against having to wear this mask as well in the marketing field and in the business field. it's just, like, so exhausting to to do that. Speaker 1: it's so exhausting. yeah. absolutely. and and i do think that it it's it's 10 times more exhausting when you don't know what's going on. you know? so a lot of the work that i do with adults, right, is help them see that they are probably under this umbrella. right? and we start looking at some of their behaviors, right, and their patterns. and then quickly together, we can identify, oh, yeah. it looks like maybe you're adhd or it looks like maybe you fall under autism or, you know, whatever it is. or maybe there's more than one thing going on, you know, adhd with dyslexia. right? dyscalculia is something that's, you know, relatively new in terms of, um, of a term that's used out there. right? and for me personally, i mean, i think i i'm a i i might have cried when i heard that term. you know? it was like, oh, right. so it's not that i'm dumb. it's not that i'm not a, quote, unquote, math person. like, my brain literally has a hard time processing numbers and number concepts just like a dyslexic can't see letters in the right form. it's the same. Speaker 0: yeah. and here we are, you know, in marketing, keep telling people to not the numbers so much, but the the content i'm thinking of, like, keep creating all this content. well, you know, uh, if you have dyslexia, writing and reading is definitely not part of the things that you enjoy doing. and so, again, if you compare yourself to the neurotypical people, you're you start to think, well, what's wrong with me? how can i how can how come i can't do this? Speaker 1: that's right. and then that really interferes. right? you can see how then that really starts to interfere. yeah. 100%. and for me, in marketing, there's always a lot of talk about budget. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: yeah. and then just the word sends my nervous system into a state, you know. and if you start talking to me about budgets or asking me or start talk throwing any kind of numbers at me in any way, my brain will just completely shut down. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: it just won't it just won't let it in, and you'll probably see a really blank look come across my face. Speaker 0: yeah. but just or or even, like, conversion rates. right? how does that make you feel? Speaker 1: so scary. so scary. Speaker 0: yeah. it's all these metrics, like the the linear linear and kind of like Speaker 1: yeah. that's really, really Speaker 0: masculine way of of doing marketing was all based on on numbers and conversions and Speaker 1: right. Speaker 0: yeah. roi is another one of those terms. you're like, uh. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. totally. and if Speaker 1: i hadn't discovered this, i i might have given up. i might have just said, i guess this isn't for me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: or or i guess i'm just i can't do it or i'm not good at it. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: right? Speaker 0: so so let's turn it around then. like yes. what kind of, you know, strengths do neurodivergent people have and can bring to this idea of business building and and marketing and and connecting and communicating, really, because that's what we're talking about. Speaker 1: yeah. i know. i love this part. this part gets me really excited, you know. but i think that, you know, again, a little mini disclaimer is that sometimes the strengths are, like, they're double edged swords. sometimes they also create stress. you know? so for example, one thing that, um, neurodivergence bring is a lot of, um, focus on detail. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1: right? and pattern recognition. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and being able to take that information and then create a concept. you know? um, and that's amazing. that's an amazing skill, you know, when it's applied well. and and then we might focus too much on a detail. right? or go Speaker 0: down a little bit. to procrastination as well because it needs to be perfect into every detail. Speaker 1: yeah. and, you know, i wanna i wanna separate those two things because perfectionism is more under the category of anxiety. mhmm. right? and so when we're dealing with, um, neurodivergence, we we are also experiencing things like anxiety. so it becomes much more challenging, right, when we're dealing with these multiple layers at the same time. you know? but i do think that if we can keep looking at the at what the strengths are in this, you know, like, really deep focus. right? directness and honesty. you know? we don't really like small talk or anything that's not deep, essentially. right? and we'd have a hard time not being honest. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: you know? it really becomes a moral dilemma. and so that's those are things that i think are really beautiful about, um, people under the narrow neurodivergent umbrella. right? there's also the creativity Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: and out of the box thinking. Speaker 0: yeah. very much so. mhmm. and i think that's what you really played into it. right? it's like because you have that creative part of yourself and you've figured out how do i bring that to my marketing. i remember back in the days when you used to follow, you know, the these, um, kind of templates of creating canva visuals. yeah. it just all looks the same. let's be honest. right? Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. Speaker 0: and then all of a sudden you started to bring in your art and, you know, more of your pictures and you could tell, wow, she's really having fun with this. and that's the that's the creative side. um, yeah. so much Speaker 1: so for me, i have to change some of the terms. right? and and it kinda maybe speaks to, like, how we market to neurodivergent folk. you know? because if you use the word conversion rate, then my heart rate goes up, and i'm gonna have a shutdown. right? but if you say, how many people, right, or this many people clicked on your site, and then this is what happened after that, then i got it. i can totally follow that pattern. right? so it's again, sometimes the wording, sometimes, uh, too much of a relationship to mathematical concepts or overwhelm, overload. right? that kind of a thing. Speaker 0: basically, concepts that society accepted as being marketing concepts and ideas. Speaker 1: mhmm. Speaker 0: and that you are like, who said that was a concept? like, explain it to me what that means in in, like, full sentences. Speaker 1: yeah. which is very much a lot in the autism range. yeah. you know, like, we really want to know the detail. how did we get there? i really wanna understand the the process. right. right. and then i can really integrate the information. Speaker 0: right. yeah. i get it. yeah. yeah. what i noticed myself doing a lot, um, on the blog is taking some of these old paradigm terms, uh, from marketing, like lead magnet. right? most people have heard of lead magnets. but what does that even mean? like, it's such a weird kind of term where we're sucking people in with a magnet. and so turning that into signposts where we are guiding people to to make a a buying decision, for example, or to come into our world. but i find that i need to use the old word and then juxtaposition it to the new words so that, you know, i can help make that that journey over the bridge, like, to to help people understand, yeah, this is maybe what you've heard, but it doesn't feel good. and so here's an alternative. here's a different word for it. Speaker 1: mhmm. mhmm. Speaker 0: so, uh, i i hear from you that that's helpful. right? like, coming up with new language around marketing that what and then prompts our nervous system as well. Speaker 1: that's right. and so much of the self care is, like, being able to notice that something does create agitation for you. right? and rather than question it or put yourself down for it, it's like, okay. it's just that my nervous system is not liking this for some reason. let's see what what i can do about that. right? Speaker 0: right. Speaker 1: yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. like, what other things that you have experienced in in business? like, let's think about sales, for example, uh, where you feel like there's been a certain norm. again, these norms. right? that, uh, neurodivergent people are like, i don't get these norms. like but there are some kind of norms. like, let's take a a sales call, uh, that feels very scripted, uh, where you are on the call and you you can cut you've like, what my son always says, he's like, feels like we're in a simulation. not necessarily in a sales call, but i'm sure he would say that if the person just kinda goes blah blah blah through the sales script. and you're like, is he even talking to me? like, is this is this for real? like yeah. Speaker 1: do you Speaker 0: have any other kind of business concept things that you feel like, yeah, that's just not for neurodivergent people. Speaker 1: oh, yeah. i mean, let's start with the scarcity countdowns. Speaker 0: uh, yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: right? what my body does with that is it shuts down. Speaker 0: creates so much anxiety. right? Speaker 1: yeah. absolutely. you know? and for some people, it it it will work, so to speak, you know, quote, unquote. it will create such stress in someone that they'll that they'll buy the the coaching package or, you know, whatever it is. but that's kinda icky. right? and it's the opposite of humane marketing. so that those kinds of things, you know, are not for the neurodivergent. i don't think they're for anybody, but that's my personal opinion. you know? yeah. Speaker 0: my opinion too. Speaker 1: that's why we're here. yeah. right? Speaker 0: another example that comes to mind i don't know if that is still happening, uh, out there. but back in the days, they would have these webinars, huge webinars with tons of people only in the chat. and then they would pretend it's live where it's actually not live. and i would, like, wanted to scream and say, Speaker 1: can't you Speaker 0: guys see that it's not live? like, we know. we're not stupid. we're we know this is not live. yeah. and and yeah. like, i i really just think the bs, uh, meter for neurodivergent people is is, you know, on a different level. Speaker 1: tolerance for it. Speaker 0: zero tolerance for Speaker 1: for and we can smell it from a mile away. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. you know? and there's that transparency and truth telling. right? Speaker 1: yeah. 100%. Speaker 0: 100%. Speaker 1: and so i think that for, uh, neurodivergent folks, like, when they're in business and they're trying to, you know, work on their marketing and their sales, everything about their business just needs to feel safe, you know, in their body. and if it feels a little icky or if it's there's something there, it's like it's really an an invitation to pause and check out what that might be about because you might be going down the path that is not gonna work for you. Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. like, right now, we were talking about from the marketing perspective, and then there's also from the buying perspective. and that's what you were addressing. it's like, how do i want to buy? how that how does it how should it feel in my body, uh, to to want to buy something and make a, you know, a a buying decision? i think what we're addressing is obviously the healed neurodivergent person. and what i'm seeing out there is is kind of this manipulation of the not of the non healed neurodivergent people where there's even more stress applied. and you you kind of mentioned that as well. right? and so they're buying out of anxiety. Speaker 1: that's right. Speaker 0: um, but then if you are the healed neurodivergent person, how how is that an integrity with what you're actually selling? right? yeah. Speaker 1: uh, to be honest, i don't even know what that means because neurodivergence is not something you heal or fix. Speaker 0: true. um, i guess it's just knowing having looked at it. like, would you say that someone who knows so whether it's an official diagnosis or just, you know, having looked at it more deeply, are they more able to deal with this anxiety because they Speaker 1: i mean, it's very it's often very relieving for people. i mean, especially for the adults i work with. right? because most of us have grown up thinking that we're we're not smart or not good enough or, you know, we're dumb at math or, you know, whatever it is. like, all these stories because you were not operating in the same way as other people. so oftentimes, when i work with clients and we move into this looks like a possible diagnosis for you, there's a lot of relief. there's a lot of like, oh, is that why that was so hard? or is that why i couldn't read? or is that why math is hard? or is that why socializing exhausts me? or, you know, whatever it is, it's like it becomes like this unraveling. right? and there's a lot of, you know, there's emotion to that. there's grief and, you know, that kind of a thing. but, you know, once you really embrace, like, this is who i am and you learn to work with your particular flavor, right, of neurodivergence, i i think that you can be very successful at just about anything. i don't, you know, i don't see why i should stand in your way. Speaker 0: and i guess that's what i meant by healed. you know? you just, like, learn who you truly are. and i think that's when you start to say no even more to the things that are not aligned with you. where before, like, what i'm seeing with my son, it's like, well, the pressure from the neuro normal side of the world is so hard that, you know, there's there's more push to know to just have to do what everybody else is doing, and then the anxiety, of course, goes up. and so if if i take this to the marketing thing, it's like, if you have not yet figured out truly who you are and and, you know, really stand with with that, then there's a big risk that you are feeling this anxiety every time you're being sold to or have to market. mhmm. so i guess that's where that pivot is. it's like, no. i'm not taking it anymore. i'm doing marketing my way, or i'm not buying from people who are trying to manipulate me and, you know, push me into scarcity and stuff thing things like that. Speaker 1: absolutely. manipulate me in any way. you know? i mean, one of the things that in general is kinda scary about the coaching world specifically is that it's it's so much based on pain point marketing, you know, and tapping into people's anxiety or stress or whatever it is that's going on and offering some kind of quick fix. Speaker 0: you know? Speaker 1: and it's like it's so unethical when it's so wrong because that's not the way human beings work. Speaker 0: no. yeah. totally. Speaker 1: no? yeah. Speaker 0: yeah. talking about this this coaching world, um, and and these pain points, that's another one of these words that need a a reframe. right? Speaker 1: absolutely. Speaker 0: because, yeah, that's what the old marketing is based on. it's like, let's make the pain points so bad. uh, you know, let's make you feel so shitty that you have to buy my solution. yeah. Speaker 1: it's like it's like it's like pouncing on a little innocent animal or something. you know, that's how how it feels for me. yeah. you know? yeah. no. absolutely not. terrible. Speaker 0: another thing is the the pricing, uh, discussion. yeah. and i think there is also this really need for transparency. can you speak to that? Speaker 1: 100%. that is absolutely necessary. you know, it's kinda what i was saying before even for myself. it's like, i want to know all of the data. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: and i want to know that, like, for myself on my own terms so that i can process it on my own. right? so if somebody doesn't have any pricing on their website, i will likely not work with them. Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. Speaker 1: because i need that information upfront. otherwise, i will feel a little anxiety maybe, you know, about the possibility that if i get on a call with you, you might do some of these unethical things or things that just don't work for me and my body. right? like, now you're gonna talk about pricing, and now i have to do it right now, and i'm gonna get all anxious and Speaker 0: no. yeah. Speaker 1: i'm i'm very clear about that part. so, yes, for i think for neurodivergent folks, we want we want all of the information, as much information as you can give us, and then we can make our decision. Speaker 0: yeah. and give me time to make this. Speaker 1: need time. that's right. i don't need pressure. none of that will work. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: none of that will work. Speaker 0: yeah. in in a way, to me, neurodivergent people are, like, super smart, very conscious human beings. and the old way of marketing is taking people for stupid, really. it's like, oh, i can, you know, trick and sleaze you and you will never notice what i'm doing. and neurodivergent people are like, no, i'm not having this at all. Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. yeah. that book is awesome. it's a superpower. Speaker 0: yeah, it really is. and in a way, you know, there's to me, there's no surprise that we're seeing more and more neurodivergency because we're really heading into this time of of of sovereignty of each individual being very, very individual, very authentic and very sovereign and and like showing up with that sovereignty and and, yeah, being able to make our own decisions, not just for buying stuff, but for for everything. and i think that's a very yeah. it's a beautiful vision of the world to to think of humans like that. Speaker 1: mhmm. no. i agree. meeting each other on that place. right? Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and having sales conversations in that kind of, um, yeah, with with that basis is a completely different thing than, like i, uh, mentioned before where, you know, i just read a script and don't even care, you know, if we've talked before or whatever. so right. it's just Speaker 1: or i look at you like dollar signs. Speaker 0: oh, yeah. yeah. that's another one. right? Speaker 1: and it's like, i i can't i can't do that. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: i just, like, i physically can't do that. i have to look at you as a person, you know, and and just show you what i have and then give you that agency, you know, to decide whether this is the right fit for you. Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. yeah. sovereignty, agency, beautiful words. Speaker 1: mhmm. yes. yeah. so no pressure, you know, from me. Speaker 0: yeah. what about, you know, other boundaries that you have learned to set for yourself as an entrepreneur, as a marketer, maybe, but but just, yeah, finding that inner peace and being being able to keep showing up without anxiety? Speaker 1: yeah. well, i mean, i think that it could kinda goes back to what i was saying before. right? that to me, the word that comes up is embrace. right? it's not fixed. it's embrace. embrace that this is how your nervous system is wired. right? this is how you were born, and this is how you operate in the world. right? because when we resist, right, it creates tension and stress and anxiety. and i know that's not easy and it takes time, but i think that that's, you know, step one is accept that this is who you are. right? except that, you know, for me, it's like, oh, i don't really want a lot of loud noises or i have to be careful about how much time i spend in group environments or, you know, how much time am i spending in front of my computer or how much time am i spending outside. it's like all of these things around my sensory stuff, my particular version of it and what that looks like for me. but i think that having a lot of boundaries is really important because we need so much more time to recover yeah. of things. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. Speaker 1: mhmm. and giving yourself permission to do that. this this is literally a physical thing that is happening to you. and if you push your body past that, that typically doesn't go well. creates more stress. you know? Speaker 0: exactly. it's creating that spaciousness, uh, for you to be human because you are, yeah, a unique human being who has unique needs. yeah. and that's the whole Speaker 1: and you yeah. and you are the only one that can decide, like, what your level of care needs to be. yeah. you're the only one convinced by that. you know? what are your office hours? when do you respond? you know? what are your boundaries with people in your business? what are your boundaries with yourself? Speaker 0: yeah. it actually starts with yourself because otherwise, you're not walking your dog. Speaker 1: right? exactly. exactly. but i think that's the best way that we can, you know, take care of ourselves. and and sometimes we have to, you know, kinda like what your son was saying, it's really hard because sometimes we have to explain these things to people. you know? like, because somebody might look at me and go, but what's the big deal about another evening meeting this week? Speaker 0: yeah. i get that all the time. Speaker 1: yeah. and it's like, well, basically, my head feels like it's gonna explode. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: so that's a no for me. Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: right? in my body, i do not feel the capacity, the energy at all to do it. yeah. and i will pay a consequence for that. i might, like, be out for a couple days just laying laying around, staring at a wall or something. mhmm. mhmm. just to recover. like, less of, uh, decreasing my stimulation just to be able to recover from overdoing, overstimulating myself. yeah. Speaker 0: let's wrap up with something like positive, a positive outlook on how yeah. the world would look differently if we had all this humane marketing led by neurodivergent people. Speaker 1: that sounds great. businesses according Speaker 0: to the new rules by neurodivergent people. that would not feel look like. Speaker 1: uh, that just makes my heart sore, you know, just to imagine that, you know, because if sensitive people around the world right? and if if our skill set of thinking things through slowing down, you know, really taking the time to make a decision, you know, an informed decision that's rooted in, like, how it feels for you, like, my goodness. the the the possibilities are endless of how the world could change. Speaker 0: it's so different. right? Speaker 1: and i do think that, you know, what gives me hope, you know, in the present is that this next generation of kids and young people have all of this information at their disposal. so my hope, right, is that this generation can grow up not feeling like they're dumb or like there's something wrong with them, that they'll just own that as part of who they are from the very beginning. right? which is the opposite of what i see with so many adults. Speaker 0: you know? Speaker 1: so many of the adults i work with, and we're talking ceos. we're talking big people that are like, oh my goodness. is this what's been going on all this time? you know? but they grew up feeling less than or feeling like they had to mask or feeling like they had to work 10 times harder than everybody else, you know, push themselves. you know? that's just thing. and and they're really feeling the consequence of that Speaker 0: yeah. Speaker 1: in their bodies, in their lives. Speaker 0: mhmm. Speaker 1: so that's one thing that gives me hope, you know, is that this new generation, it's like, wow. you guys have all of that in your little hands. that's amazing. Speaker 0: yeah. and, also, like, they're just not having it. they're like they look at us, see what we created, and they're like, i'm not having that, that, that. Speaker 1: so why would i do that? Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. like you said, that that gives us lots of hope. yeah. Speaker 1: because there's much more permission. Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. well, i think we need to continue this conversation in episode two around just kinda like today, we talked a lot about marketing. maybe we can just talk about entrepreneurship for neurodivergent people because there's a lot of, um, people out there who are, you know, really bringing these new concepts, new ideas. and i think it'd be interesting to continue the conversation. Speaker 1: i think it's actually a really important conversation to have. Speaker 0: yeah. well, for now, why don't you share with people how you work with them, where they can find you, and all of that? Speaker 1: yeah. so, you know, i work both with individuals and groups and organizations. right? so with individuals, it's about, you know, understanding their neurodivergency and if there's any, you know, obstacles related to that, like feeling less than, feeling not good enough, feeling like you have to over perform, you know, whatever the behavior is that, um, interferes, we really look at that and address that so that people can live with, you know, ideally less stress and just feeling better in general about life, you know. and with groups and organizations, i really love to bring in the inclusion component of having neurodivergent folk in your organization because one in four people falls under the neurodivergent umbrella. that's a lot of people. yeah. right? so if you're looking at your organization and and it's hard because it shows up as communication issues a lot of the time or, you know, things that look like performance issues in in an organizational environment when really this person is just struggling with some kind of neurodivergence. and when that's addressed, then they can go they can become a peak performer employee just like everybody else. yeah. yeah. people can find me on my website. they can look for me on linkedin. i'm also on instagram. you know? so and please and Speaker 0: your website is myriammartinezcocoaching.com. correct? Speaker 1: it is. yes. thank you. mhmm. and, yeah, please don't hesitate to reach out around any anything related to neurodivergent. Speaker 0: wonderful. well, to be continued. yeah. thanks so much for, yeah, sharing this. it was amazing. Speaker 1: thank you, sarah.

In this episode of The Humane Marketing Podcast, I sit down with Sinead Rafferty to explore what leadership looks like for empaths and highly sensitive people in today’s fast and complex world. We talk about why empathy is a vital strength in leadership, how the old myths of authority and “loud voices” are giving way to more human-centered approaches, and what unique gifts empaths bring to the table. Sinead also shares the inspiration behind the Empathic Leadership Summit and how themes like self-leadership, professional leadership, and purposeful leadership weave together. If you’ve ever doubted whether you’re a leader, this conversation will help you see leadership through a more humane, grounded, and empowering lens. In this episode we discussed: What leadership means today, in a world that feels so fast, complex, and often overwhelming Why empathy is such a vital part of leadership — both personally and professionally How the idea that leadership requires titles, authority, or being “the loudest in the room” is shifting The unique strengths highly sensitive people and empaths bring to leadership — and why they matter The biggest myths about leadership that deserve to be debunked The inspiration behind the Empathic Leadership Summit, held on Oct 21st – 23rd How the three themes of Self-Leadership, Professional Leadership, and Purposeful Leadership weave together What Purposeful Leadership means to Sinead, and how participants can experience it during the summit Watch this episode on YouTube --- Ep220  Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned business and marketing coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and my new book, business like we're human. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. you want to make a difference with your work. you are just starting out or have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you, or you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane.marketing forward slash program. marketing like we're human runs usually in late january and february and june. and if you feel like you're already doing a good job with the marketing, but it's the selling that you're struggling with, i'm now adding a new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. this will also run twice per year in an intimate cohort to get the most out of it. find out more about this program at humane.marketing/howtosell. this program usually runs in april and november. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. whether it's for your marketing, your sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like creating a group program or writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that's joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/coaching. thank you so much for letting me share my offerings with excitement. and now onto the show.  Speaker 3: hello, friends. welcome back to another episode. today's conversation fits under the p of personal power. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and you don't know what i'm talking about, well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane.marketing/ one page. that's the number one and the word page. and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. today, i'm speaking to sinead rafferty about empathic leadership. before i tell you a bit more about sinead, allow me to mention that i'm still booking human conversations in my serene garden. these are terms that i'm using in the selling like we're human book. and if you've looked at the sales page of the program, how to sell in 2026 and beyond, uh, that you can find at humane.marketing/howtosell. and if you're interested in selling more in 2026, who isn't, but also really want to sell differently, then let's have a chat to find out if this is the right fit for you at this time. we start on november 13, and it will be a small and safe group and a beta round for this first edition. okay. back to the show. so sinead rafferty is a career and alignment coach on a mission to empower highly sensitive people, hsps, empaths, deep thinkers, and divergent minds to thrive in life, work, and leadership. her alignment coaching brings identity, energy, and purpose into harmony so clients can live and lead authentically. from that foundation, she integrates career and business strategy, turning inner clarity into practical roadmap for meaningful contribution and growth. with over seventeen years experience in personal development, leadership, and business strategy, sinead combines empathy and intuition, psychology and innovative coaching techniques to guide clients in turning sensitivity and their natural skills into powerful assets for authentic leadership and purposeful impact. sinead lives on ireland's northwest coast with her husband and two children, loves travel, music, and wild winter walks by the atlantic. here's what we talked about in this episode. what leadership means today in a world that feels so fast, complex, and often overwhelming. why empathy is such a vital part of leadership, both personally and professionally. how the idea that leadership requires titles, authority, or being the loudest in the room is shifting. the unique strengths highly sensitive people and empaths bring to leadership and why they matter. the biggest myths about leadership that deserve to be debunked. the inspiration behind the empathic leadership summit, which is held on october 21 till twenty third. and how the three themes of self leadership, professional leadership, and purposeful leadership weave together, and finally, what purposeful leadership means to sinead and how participants can experience it during the summit. i'll be talking about business like we're human on day two. that is all about professional leadership. so i really hope you will join us for this empathic leadership summit. you can sign up at humane.marketing/leadershipsummit. but now without further ado, let's listen to sinead and i talking about empathic leadership.  Speaker 0: shanae, it's so good to see you and have you on the podcast. welcome.  Speaker 1: thank you, sarah. such an honor to be here, honestly. thanks a million.  Speaker 0: yeah. it's so good. and we're collaborating on something. right? and so i thought, well, why not have you on the podcast and talk about empathic leadership? because that's the the topic of this episode, and it's also the topic, um, um, and the title of your upcoming summit. and i mentioned that in the intro and we'll mention it again because we really invite people to join us for these conversations that i think are so key right now. but let's dive in. uh, and yeah, let me ask you first, like, what does leadership mean to you given, you know, the current world situation? and then what does empathic leadership mean?  Speaker 1: well, it's a good question. i think it's important that we ask ourselves, what is the definition of leadership? you know? um, and i think what we're witnessing on the world stage today, um, means it's even more important that we ask that question, you know? um, i believe that leadership is, or at least i hope it is moving towards something that is more about connection than it is about control. um, you know, the ability to hold space for people in a very complex scenario, a complex world that we live in. you know? i think that's really important. um, and the only way to do that is to is to feed empathy through. so so that leadership, um, is redefined with empathy at its core. you know, that it becomes completely normal, that empathy is there at its core. and that begins with self awareness. it begins with knowing our own values and our own energy and our own purpose. um, so we can come from a grounded place. and then it's about humanity, isn't it? i mean, ultimately, it's about humanity. it's about recognizing that people thrive when they feel safe, psychologically safe, when they see when they feel seen and heard, um, and not just managed. you know? um, it's so important that we're leaders in our own lives, that we can make our own decisions because i think that it's the habits in our own lives. you know, we're so drawn in by social media and things like that. and those daily habits are what that's feeding into keeping the wrong people in charge.  Speaker 0: do you  Speaker 1: know what i mean? so it definitely starts with self leadership. you know?  Speaker 0: yes. yeah. i love that. yeah. and i think what you brought up there is this topic of sovereignty. right? the self leadership, sovereignty, and and and why that is so important right now. and i like how you said we don't wanna be managed. yeah. that's exactly how it feels like. it feels like we're, you know, a bunch of sheep being somehow managed to do this, do that. and and we've yeah. we just are tired of that. but that means that, yeah, we need to come from this inner awareness and this inner sovereignty, uh, and and not just show up as sheep. right? because i think there there is that as well, people who just are so used to be managed. and then there's, uh, people like the people that we're trying to attract to the summit who are ready to step into leadership, whether that is self leadership or or purposeful leadership out there. um, when you talk about empathy, why why is empathy so so key in today's world? and and why, you know, i i think that's not what we're seeing as an example  Speaker 1: opposed to to us sensitives, you know, or us empaths. um, but what empathy does, it it it connects to your needs and your motivations and your values. so that's like for yourself and for others. so it connects you to other people. and in doing that, i think it creates a sense of inclusion where people feel heard and they feel understood. and from there, you can build trust with people. and from there, you can build productivity and success. i mean, there's study after study that shows that the more trust and the more inclusion and the more safety people feel in the workplace, the more engagement that the companies get, uh, and then the more successful they become. um, so it's there. like, the evidence is there. it drives performance if that's what your priority is. um, it shows that the teams led with empathy are more engaged. they're more resilient. they're more innovative. you know? like, the writings on the walls, i don't know why it's disappeared. it's the foundation of relationships without a doubt, um, because without empathy, leadership, as you say, is kind of transactional, isn't it, instead of being for the people. so it's like that, you know, the sheep are following and the leader is just doing whatever they want. i mean, that doesn't make any sense at all for the people. you know? so hopefully, we're, as a collective, waking up to that. you know? because if you think about leadership without empathy, um, you're ignoring people's values. you're ignoring people's motivations, and you're ignoring their needs. um, and if you do that for long enough, what happens to the people? you you know what i mean? they begin to revolt, i hope. and i think that's maybe what we're beginning to see globally.  Speaker 0: hopefully. yes. yeah. mhmm. yeah. yeah. exactly. it's like when we're watching the world stage, we have a really hard time finding empathy and leadership. and and also, um, i was just referring to an email exchange i i had with someone when i shared the summit. they wrote back it was miriam who wrote back to me and said, you know, it's interesting that leadership to me just kind of, like, meant male and very authoritarian. right?  Speaker 1: yeah. there you go.  Speaker 0: that's that's, uh, kind of like how we've grown up, uh, to think of leaders. uh, they're they're male and they're very, you know, aggressive and and, yeah, authoritarian. and so it is time for us to redefine leadership, i really think. and and and just adding that little word, empathic, in front of it, well, that that says it all. yeah. it does. it says  Speaker 1: it all, and it actually brings it. you know, i i kind of sometimes say this isn't rocket science. it's human nature, and it brings people back to just being human, um, instead of being so influenced by by the the crazy narrative that people are being fed. you know? mhmm. so, definitely, i mean, it's it's interesting to hear that from miriam, um, because it's true. there's that sense of, like, well, there's only a certain character perhaps or temperament can be a leader.  Speaker 0: mhmm. you  Speaker 1: know, kind of there's a bravado to it perhaps or it's loud or extroverted only, you know, and that couldn't be farther from the truth.  Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. so if we think about empaths and highly sensitive and and neurodivergent, uh, people, it it does feel like there's not enough role models. because, you know, you take elon musk. yeah. he might be neurodivergent, but he's the opposite of an empath. right? and so, uh, it can be intimidating to kind of feel yeah. feel called into leadership because of the wrong role models. so how how do you see this changing and what yeah. what's the conversation that needs to be had?  Speaker 1: well, i think, you know, a lot of the work that i do with with highly sensitive and empaths is the first step is self validation. so a lot of hsps, highly sensitive people and empaths, have grown up, um, feeling that they're they're wrong somehow, that they're weaker somehow. so we need to change that belief. we need to validate the incredible skills that we have and recognize them as being that bit different to that traditional bravado loud leader. you know? yeah. like, the skills that are there innately. you know? authenticity, sensitivity, adaptability, empathy, all come so naturally, um, that it's just about having that little bit of courage to be seen, that courage to find your voice, to be able to offer these incredible innate skills that we have. and they're plentiful. you know? and this is why i always kind of include neurodiversity in the conversation because neurodiversity is everyone. so that includes hsps and empaths, which is my focus. right? but we are wired differently, so we come under that umbrella as well. everyone does. um, so, like, what we're offering in terms of, you know, cultural sensitivity or attention to detail or, um, the vision and depth we bring to the conversation, you know, we naturally create the psychological safety that people need. like, it's all there already. i think we just have to find that courage to step up if we can.  Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. courage is a big word. right? yeah. because it it does yeah. it does need a lot of bravery to, yeah, to step up and speak up. and i think it it helps to know that you're not alone. uh, and and that's why a summit is is great. right? to feel like, oh,  Speaker 1: i'm not  Speaker 0: the only hsp. i'm not the only empath who who feels this inner calling because oftentimes as hsps, we we really want to work on impact. right? but it's it's sometimes, like, there's a lot of ambition and there's not always the energy, uh, because a lot of times, you know, we need to really learn how to balance our energy. but to have a group together who's like, no, but we can do it and we can do it in a different way, in a maybe more gentler, quieter way. uh, yeah, that's just really, really encouraging.  Speaker 1: yeah. a 100%. like the sense of community is, is so important in this summit. you know, it's about bringing people together and it's about building momentum year on year. i've kind of committed in my head to an annual event so that we can grow that network and grow that community. um, and just to pick up on what you said, like, the work that i do, i base it on kind of three aspects. i call it the alignment code. and one is identity and feeling empowered in who you are. one is energy flow and energy management. and then i bring in strategy. and i think what a lot of people are trying to do is jump to strategy and they don't they haven't taken the time to ground in who they are to truly empower themselves and to manage their energy flow and their state. once they've appreciated that their energy flow is different to to to what they maybe have seen all of their lives and to that neurotypical, uh, example that we've always had.  Speaker 0: yeah. i'm so glad you bring that up. i have a um, presentation coming up at the at a conference in stockholm next week or two weeks. and and i already know, uh, like, okay. this is gonna take a lot of energy, so i'm definitely not gonna attend the mingle after, you know, like, i need to, i need to somehow be able to find that quiet space and refill my batteries. but, um, i see it with my son right now. he's he's, um, autistic. and, and, you know, it's really hard. we we just found out he's in his twenties, and it's really hard for him to balance, um, you know, having fun with his friends, going out, and then being completely depleted and exhausted. and so it's something you need to learn and yeah. absolutely. sometimes you need a coach or somebody  Speaker 1: to help. you can't walk the path alone. none of us can. that's the thing. um, i refer to that as the sensitivity spiral because we kind of expect ourselves to be able to bounce back or recover or wake up kind of reset like you might see, you know, a neurotypical man, you know, who has a twenty four hour hormonal cycle. you know what i mean? it doesn't apply to everyone. and you often need to have that sense of, like, okay. what did i do yesterday? because that is gonna affect how i am today, and how i am today will feed into tomorrow. so that's a real awareness that's required. and i, you know, i would help people reach an optimal energy flow for them as an individual. no one size fits all.  Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and, and that's hard in your twenties because all you want is to be like everybody else.  Speaker 1: yeah. oh, it's very hard in your twenties. yeah. like, i mean, i didn't have this sussed in my twenties. i know that for sure. yeah. um, and the extremes are more when you're younger, aren't they? and the the crazy nights out or whatever it might be. um, yeah. absolutely. it's it's very challenging for for for younger people. that's for sure.  Speaker 0: so let's talk about the the summit, um, a little bit. um, there's there's three main themes. and how do they what are they and how do they weave together?  Speaker 1: um, okay. so, um, i came together with my cohosts, linda bins and teresa behan, and we had a good discussion about how we can make a a summit that is sensitive, friendly, if you like. right? that is paced in such a way that isn't overwhelming, that people can choose what they want to attend on the day. they can also have the replays for a certain period of time, etcetera. so, uh, because i think sometimes when you go to a summit, it's just talk after talk after talk. and i did learn from last year, so i'm learning each year, um, that, yeah, it's better to to have less is more, basically. do you know what i mean? so yeah. we decided to have three themes for three days. and those themes are self leadership, which is day one, and that is all about, as i've said already a little bit, the foundation of everything, knowing yourself and your energy, your values, how to nourish yourself, how to manage your energy, um, and design the life that you truly want. then on day two, we're looking at professional leadership. so that's like, okay, how do we bring that to the professional settings, to the workplace, or to business? uh, reframing what leadership might look like in those settings, um, making business and the workplace more humane where you're gonna be stepping in there on day two. and then, um, purposeful leadership is day three. that's kind of the bigger picture, um, kind of like the the why of it all. so if self leadership is about self, professional leadership is about how we're doing it, and then purposeful leadership is why we're doing it. you know? why is it so important for us to do this? so that's kind of the thinking behind the three the three themes.  Speaker 0: i love that. and you're leading day three. right? purposeful leadership.  Speaker 1: yeah. yes. indeed.  Speaker 0: so what's your presentation or or, yeah, topic going to be?  Speaker 1: um, so so this is the piece about the courage. right? so my talk itself is about the courage to be seen, voice, and visibility. um, and i touch on the evolutionary kind of aspect of sensitive leaders and hsps in general. um, i've kinda been saying this for many years, uh, that your purpose, whoever you are out there listening, has meaning. your calling has meaning. your your drive, whatever drive that you have to achieve something specific, you have that drive for a reason. and i truly believe that, you know? mhmm. so i think for me, when it comes to purposeful leadership, it's kind of like looking beyond what we already know. and there's a a narrative out there around, um, the evolutionary aspect of, say, sensitivity or the evolutionary aspect of neurodiversity and the advantages to society that that different perspectives are offering up, you know. um, for example, you might have pattern recognition, more cognitive complexity, memory skills, and heightened perception, heightened sensitivity. and i believe that we're at a point where those skills need a chance to shine, you know? so that's why i try to empower my clients in recognizing those innate skills before they try to do any strategizing  Speaker 0: in terms  Speaker 1: of what they want to achieve. you know? so that's kind of what i'm covering, uh, on on day three.  Speaker 0: i love that. yeah. and and it's so true that the recognizing the uniqueness and and and also pointing out how these specific skills are so important in the time we're in right now. and that's why there's so much courage needed.  Speaker 1: right? yeah. exactly. so well put. exactly. you know, it all ties in. um, we we we need to find a way to kind of be okay with being seen. because for a lot of hsps and empaths in particular, the sense of being seen, of being visible, um, is a sense of exposure often. you know what i mean? and we don't we don't want that. we don't like that, and i relate to that personally. so it's kind of like bringing ourselves to a place of psychological safety so that we can then lead others.  Speaker 0: yeah. mm. so good. i can't wait. yeah. it's it really sounds like every day has its purpose and is very unique. yeah. yeah. i think so. what do you hope for participants to, to, to take away and come away with after the three days?  Speaker 1: so i'm kind of the eternal optimist always. right. so i just want them to feel empowered. i want them to feel like they're not alone. like you mentioned that there's a community there that we can help each other, that we can support one another and understand one another. i want them to walk away with a sense of possibility and with hope. i think we need more hope these days, right? and we we we can all do our part however small in feeding into to that hope. um, so i hope they they i hope they get a sense of clarity, a sense of confidence in their own way of leading in their own lives. i hope that they can pick up practical tools and ideas around, um, business practices, building connections, managing energy, and then the the inspire. i hope they i hope they'll be inspired. i hope that they will feel inspired, that they have a place, and that we have a role to play, um, in this crazy world today.  Speaker 0: amazing. yeah. and i hope, yeah, that they have the courage to really show up and speak up. and in my talk, i kind of specifically talk about intrepreneurs. so people in companies, but that have this entrepreneurial spirit and, and really feel like, feel called to change. uh, and so, yeah, i just really, with all my heart, hope that they will get the inspiration to to speak up and and change things.  Speaker 1: yeah. i hope so. um, yeah. i love intrapreneurs. i've worked with many of them as well. and i always love, um, the idea of, you know i always say to the entrepreneur, you know, if there's no box on the hierarchy of the company for there, then you need to aim to to aim for the day where they have to create a box for you. you know? because i had a client once where they had to create a box because they just couldn't categorize what he was able to do. um, and i was just it was such a celebration, uh, the day that he told me they've created me a  Speaker 0: new box as a priority. and i  Speaker 1: was like, yes, that's it. you know, that's impactful. that's purposeful, for sure.  Speaker 0: wonderful. well, why don't you tell people again where they can sign up the exact dates? and, and then if people listen to this, you know, after it already happened, maybe they can still sign up for the replays. they can still sign up for next year as well.  Speaker 1: yeah, exactly for next year. so this year, the format is that it's, um, free to attend with fourteen days replays, and then there is a vip upgrade if you want to have the sessions, you know, for lifetime access or whatever. um, and that includes bonuses including some time with ourselves, you know, some coaching sessions. um, so you can sign up the website itself. um, maybe we'll link it below. it's not as nifty, i suppose, as i would like it to be. um, it's empathic leadership summit, but it's it's it's there's a heyessummit.com on it. so i'll just put the link below, um, in the show notes if that's okay because i don't wanna confuse people. um, yeah. so i i really hope that people sign up, that they join us. you know, join the movement. let's redefine leadership together with empathy, um, at the heart of everything.  Speaker 0: yeah. um, yeah. it's so much more than a summit. right? and and i mentioned in the email that i sent out to my subscribers, i'm like, i'm very picky with what kind of summits i speak at. um, and what i like about this is that it really feels more like a movement. and it's also, you know, it's not overwhelming. it's three days. it's only 12 speakers. like, sometimes i get invited and there's 36 speakers. we're like crazy, crazy amount of overwhelm. so yeah.  Speaker 1: that's yeah.  Speaker 0: i'm really  Speaker 1: glad. huge level of energy when yeah.  Speaker 0: when you  Speaker 1: have things like that. and i think that as hsps, our brains just attach then, don't we? we can't quite engage because  Speaker 0: it's  Speaker 1: just it's just too much, too overwhelming. so yeah. i am honored that you were joining the empathic leadership summit, uh, an absolute honor that you're with us for that as a speaker. sarah, thank you so much.  Speaker 0: yeah. thank you. and mention also your website. people want to work, uh, directly with you.  Speaker 1: yeah. so all all the information about my work is on sineadraffertycoaching.com, rafferty.com. um, um, shayraftertycoaching.com. so on there, um, i think the best place to start is i have a free mini course. it's called embracing the gift of high sensitivity. um, and that's a really great place to start. that's where the self validation lies. so if anyone's interested, they can sign up for that.  Speaker 0: wonderful. well, i can't wait. very much look forward to it. thank you, shanay.  Speaker 1: thanks, sarah. thank you so much.  Speaker 4: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode, and i really encourage you to step into courage. you can find out more about sinead at sineadraffertycoaching.com. and most importantly, if you're listening to this episode before 10/21/2025, do join us for the empathic leadership summit. i think it's gonna be great. you can sign up at humane.marketing/leadershipsummit. i just created a pretty link, but i'm not receiving an affiliate commission. i just really believe in sinead and this work. you find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm200andtwenty. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books. sorry. my three books, marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. go be the change you want to see in the world. see you soon. 

In this episode of The Humane Marketing Podcast, I sit down with Sinead Rafferty to explore what leadership looks like for empaths and highly sensitive people in today's fast and complex world. We talk about why empathy is a vital strength in leadership, how the old myths of authority and "loud voices" are giving way to more human-centered approaches, and what unique gifts empaths bring to the table. Sinead also shares the inspiration behind the Empathic Leadership Summit and how themes like self-leadership, professional leadership, and purposeful leadership weave together. If you've ever doubted whether you're a leader, this conversation will help you see leadership through a more humane, grounded, and empowering lens. In this episode we discussed: What leadership means today, in a world that feels so fast, complex, and often overwhelming Why empathy is such a vital part of leadership — both personally and professionally How the idea that leadership requires titles, authority, or being "the loudest in the room" is shifting The unique strengths highly sensitive people and empaths bring to leadership — and why they matter The biggest myths about leadership that deserve to be debunked The inspiration behind the Empathic Leadership Summit, held on Oct 21st – 23rd How the three themes of Self-Leadership, Professional Leadership, and Purposeful Leadership weave together What Purposeful Leadership means to Sinead, and how participants can experience it during the summit Watch this episode on YouTube --- Ep220  Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned business and marketing coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and my new book, business like we're human. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. you want to make a difference with your work. you are just starting out or have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you, or you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane.marketing forward slash program. marketing like we're human runs usually in late january and february and june. and if you feel like you're already doing a good job with the marketing, but it's the selling that you're struggling with, i'm now adding a new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. this will also run twice per year in an intimate cohort to get the most out of it. find out more about this program at humane.marketing/howtosell. this program usually runs in april and november. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. whether it's for your marketing, your sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like creating a group program or writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that's joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/coaching. thank you so much for letting me share my offerings with excitement. and now onto the show.  Speaker 3: hello, friends. welcome back to another episode. today's conversation fits under the p of personal power. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and you don't know what i'm talking about, well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane.marketing/ one page. that's the number one and the word page. and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. today, i'm speaking to sinead rafferty about empathic leadership. before i tell you a bit more about sinead, allow me to mention that i'm still booking human conversations in my serene garden. these are terms that i'm using in the selling like we're human book. and if you've looked at the sales page of the program, how to sell in 2026 and beyond, uh, that you can find at humane.marketing/howtosell. and if you're interested in selling more in 2026, who isn't, but also really want to sell differently, then let's have a chat to find out if this is the right fit for you at this time. we start on november 13, and it will be a small and safe group and a beta round for this first edition. okay. back to the show. so sinead rafferty is a career and alignment coach on a mission to empower highly sensitive people, hsps, empaths, deep thinkers, and divergent minds to thrive in life, work, and leadership. her alignment coaching brings identity, energy, and purpose into harmony so clients can live and lead authentically. from that foundation, she integrates career and business strategy, turning inner clarity into practical roadmap for meaningful contribution and growth. with over seventeen years experience in personal development, leadership, and business strategy, sinead combines empathy and intuition, psychology and innovative coaching techniques to guide clients in turning sensitivity and their natural skills into powerful assets for authentic leadership and purposeful impact. sinead lives on ireland's northwest coast with her husband and two children, loves travel, music, and wild winter walks by the atlantic. here's what we talked about in this episode. what leadership means today in a world that feels so fast, complex, and often overwhelming. why empathy is such a vital part of leadership, both personally and professionally. how the idea that leadership requires titles, authority, or being the loudest in the room is shifting. the unique strengths highly sensitive people and empaths bring to leadership and why they matter. the biggest myths about leadership that deserve to be debunked. the inspiration behind the empathic leadership summit, which is held on october 21 till twenty third. and how the three themes of self leadership, professional leadership, and purposeful leadership weave together, and finally, what purposeful leadership means to sinead and how participants can experience it during the summit. i'll be talking about business like we're human on day two. that is all about professional leadership. so i really hope you will join us for this empathic leadership summit. you can sign up at humane.marketing/leadershipsummit. but now without further ado, let's listen to sinead and i talking about empathic leadership.  Speaker 0: shanae, it's so good to see you and have you on the podcast. welcome.  Speaker 1: thank you, sarah. such an honor to be here, honestly. thanks a million.  Speaker 0: yeah. it's so good. and we're collaborating on something. right? and so i thought, well, why not have you on the podcast and talk about empathic leadership? because that's the the topic of this episode, and it's also the topic, um, um, and the title of your upcoming summit. and i mentioned that in the intro and we'll mention it again because we really invite people to join us for these conversations that i think are so key right now. but let's dive in. uh, and yeah, let me ask you first, like, what does leadership mean to you given, you know, the current world situation? and then what does empathic leadership mean?  Speaker 1: well, it's a good question. i think it's important that we ask ourselves, what is the definition of leadership? you know? um, and i think what we're witnessing on the world stage today, um, means it's even more important that we ask that question, you know? um, i believe that leadership is, or at least i hope it is moving towards something that is more about connection than it is about control. um, you know, the ability to hold space for people in a very complex scenario, a complex world that we live in. you know? i think that's really important. um, and the only way to do that is to is to feed empathy through. so so that leadership, um, is redefined with empathy at its core. you know, that it becomes completely normal, that empathy is there at its core. and that begins with self awareness. it begins with knowing our own values and our own energy and our own purpose. um, so we can come from a grounded place. and then it's about humanity, isn't it? i mean, ultimately, it's about humanity. it's about recognizing that people thrive when they feel safe, psychologically safe, when they see when they feel seen and heard, um, and not just managed. you know? um, it's so important that we're leaders in our own lives, that we can make our own decisions because i think that it's the habits in our own lives. you know, we're so drawn in by social media and things like that. and those daily habits are what that's feeding into keeping the wrong people in charge.  Speaker 0: do you  Speaker 1: know what i mean? so it definitely starts with self leadership. you know?  Speaker 0: yes. yeah. i love that. yeah. and i think what you brought up there is this topic of sovereignty. right? the self leadership, sovereignty, and and and why that is so important right now. and i like how you said we don't wanna be managed. yeah. that's exactly how it feels like. it feels like we're, you know, a bunch of sheep being somehow managed to do this, do that. and and we've yeah. we just are tired of that. but that means that, yeah, we need to come from this inner awareness and this inner sovereignty, uh, and and not just show up as sheep. right? because i think there there is that as well, people who just are so used to be managed. and then there's, uh, people like the people that we're trying to attract to the summit who are ready to step into leadership, whether that is self leadership or or purposeful leadership out there. um, when you talk about empathy, why why is empathy so so key in today's world? and and why, you know, i i think that's not what we're seeing as an example  Speaker 1: opposed to to us sensitives, you know, or us empaths. um, but what empathy does, it it it connects to your needs and your motivations and your values. so that's like for yourself and for others. so it connects you to other people. and in doing that, i think it creates a sense of inclusion where people feel heard and they feel understood. and from there, you can build trust with people. and from there, you can build productivity and success. i mean, there's study after study that shows that the more trust and the more inclusion and the more safety people feel in the workplace, the more engagement that the companies get, uh, and then the more successful they become. um, so it's there. like, the evidence is there. it drives performance if that's what your priority is. um, it shows that the teams led with empathy are more engaged. they're more resilient. they're more innovative. you know? like, the writings on the walls, i don't know why it's disappeared. it's the foundation of relationships without a doubt, um, because without empathy, leadership, as you say, is kind of transactional, isn't it, instead of being for the people. so it's like that, you know, the sheep are following and the leader is just doing whatever they want. i mean, that doesn't make any sense at all for the people. you know? so hopefully, we're, as a collective, waking up to that. you know? because if you think about leadership without empathy, um, you're ignoring people's values. you're ignoring people's motivations, and you're ignoring their needs. um, and if you do that for long enough, what happens to the people? you you know what i mean? they begin to revolt, i hope. and i think that's maybe what we're beginning to see globally.  Speaker 0: hopefully. yes. yeah. mhmm. yeah. yeah. exactly. it's like when we're watching the world stage, we have a really hard time finding empathy and leadership. and and also, um, i was just referring to an email exchange i i had with someone when i shared the summit. they wrote back it was miriam who wrote back to me and said, you know, it's interesting that leadership to me just kind of, like, meant male and very authoritarian. right?  Speaker 1: yeah. there you go.  Speaker 0: that's that's, uh, kind of like how we've grown up, uh, to think of leaders. uh, they're they're male and they're very, you know, aggressive and and, yeah, authoritarian. and so it is time for us to redefine leadership, i really think. and and and just adding that little word, empathic, in front of it, well, that that says it all. yeah. it does. it says  Speaker 1: it all, and it actually brings it. you know, i i kind of sometimes say this isn't rocket science. it's human nature, and it brings people back to just being human, um, instead of being so influenced by by the the crazy narrative that people are being fed. you know? mhmm. so, definitely, i mean, it's it's interesting to hear that from miriam, um, because it's true. there's that sense of, like, well, there's only a certain character perhaps or temperament can be a leader.  Speaker 0: mhmm. you  Speaker 1: know, kind of there's a bravado to it perhaps or it's loud or extroverted only, you know, and that couldn't be farther from the truth.  Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. so if we think about empaths and highly sensitive and and neurodivergent, uh, people, it it does feel like there's not enough role models. because, you know, you take elon musk. yeah. he might be neurodivergent, but he's the opposite of an empath. right? and so, uh, it can be intimidating to kind of feel yeah. feel called into leadership because of the wrong role models. so how how do you see this changing and what yeah. what's the conversation that needs to be had?  Speaker 1: well, i think, you know, a lot of the work that i do with with highly sensitive and empaths is the first step is self validation. so a lot of hsps, highly sensitive people and empaths, have grown up, um, feeling that they're they're wrong somehow, that they're weaker somehow. so we need to change that belief. we need to validate the incredible skills that we have and recognize them as being that bit different to that traditional bravado loud leader. you know? yeah. like, the skills that are there innately. you know? authenticity, sensitivity, adaptability, empathy, all come so naturally, um, that it's just about having that little bit of courage to be seen, that courage to find your voice, to be able to offer these incredible innate skills that we have. and they're plentiful. you know? and this is why i always kind of include neurodiversity in the conversation because neurodiversity is everyone. so that includes hsps and empaths, which is my focus. right? but we are wired differently, so we come under that umbrella as well. everyone does. um, so, like, what we're offering in terms of, you know, cultural sensitivity or attention to detail or, um, the vision and depth we bring to the conversation, you know, we naturally create the psychological safety that people need. like, it's all there already. i think we just have to find that courage to step up if we can.  Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. courage is a big word. right? yeah. because it it does yeah. it does need a lot of bravery to, yeah, to step up and speak up. and i think it it helps to know that you're not alone. uh, and and that's why a summit is is great. right? to feel like, oh,  Speaker 1: i'm not  Speaker 0: the only hsp. i'm not the only empath who who feels this inner calling because oftentimes as hsps, we we really want to work on impact. right? but it's it's sometimes, like, there's a lot of ambition and there's not always the energy, uh, because a lot of times, you know, we need to really learn how to balance our energy. but to have a group together who's like, no, but we can do it and we can do it in a different way, in a maybe more gentler, quieter way. uh, yeah, that's just really, really encouraging.  Speaker 1: yeah. a 100%. like the sense of community is, is so important in this summit. you know, it's about bringing people together and it's about building momentum year on year. i've kind of committed in my head to an annual event so that we can grow that network and grow that community. um, and just to pick up on what you said, like, the work that i do, i base it on kind of three aspects. i call it the alignment code. and one is identity and feeling empowered in who you are. one is energy flow and energy management. and then i bring in strategy. and i think what a lot of people are trying to do is jump to strategy and they don't they haven't taken the time to ground in who they are to truly empower themselves and to manage their energy flow and their state. once they've appreciated that their energy flow is different to to to what they maybe have seen all of their lives and to that neurotypical, uh, example that we've always had.  Speaker 0: yeah. i'm so glad you bring that up. i have a um, presentation coming up at the at a conference in stockholm next week or two weeks. and and i already know, uh, like, okay. this is gonna take a lot of energy, so i'm definitely not gonna attend the mingle after, you know, like, i need to, i need to somehow be able to find that quiet space and refill my batteries. but, um, i see it with my son right now. he's he's, um, autistic. and, and, you know, it's really hard. we we just found out he's in his twenties, and it's really hard for him to balance, um, you know, having fun with his friends, going out, and then being completely depleted and exhausted. and so it's something you need to learn and yeah. absolutely. sometimes you need a coach or somebody  Speaker 1: to help. you can't walk the path alone. none of us can. that's the thing. um, i refer to that as the sensitivity spiral because we kind of expect ourselves to be able to bounce back or recover or wake up kind of reset like you might see, you know, a neurotypical man, you know, who has a twenty four hour hormonal cycle. you know what i mean? it doesn't apply to everyone. and you often need to have that sense of, like, okay. what did i do yesterday? because that is gonna affect how i am today, and how i am today will feed into tomorrow. so that's a real awareness that's required. and i, you know, i would help people reach an optimal energy flow for them as an individual. no one size fits all.  Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and, and that's hard in your twenties because all you want is to be like everybody else.  Speaker 1: yeah. oh, it's very hard in your twenties. yeah. like, i mean, i didn't have this sussed in my twenties. i know that for sure. yeah. um, and the extremes are more when you're younger, aren't they? and the the crazy nights out or whatever it might be. um, yeah. absolutely. it's it's very challenging for for for younger people. that's for sure.  Speaker 0: so let's talk about the the summit, um, a little bit. um, there's there's three main themes. and how do they what are they and how do they weave together?  Speaker 1: um, okay. so, um, i came together with my cohosts, linda bins and teresa behan, and we had a good discussion about how we can make a a summit that is sensitive, friendly, if you like. right? that is paced in such a way that isn't overwhelming, that people can choose what they want to attend on the day. they can also have the replays for a certain period of time, etcetera. so, uh, because i think sometimes when you go to a summit, it's just talk after talk after talk. and i did learn from last year, so i'm learning each year, um, that, yeah, it's better to to have less is more, basically. do you know what i mean? so yeah. we decided to have three themes for three days. and those themes are self leadership, which is day one, and that is all about, as i've said already a little bit, the foundation of everything, knowing yourself and your energy, your values, how to nourish yourself, how to manage your energy, um, and design the life that you truly want. then on day two, we're looking at professional leadership. so that's like, okay, how do we bring that to the professional settings, to the workplace, or to business? uh, reframing what leadership might look like in those settings, um, making business and the workplace more humane where you're gonna be stepping in there on day two. and then, um, purposeful leadership is day three. that's kind of the bigger picture, um, kind of like the the why of it all. so if self leadership is about self, professional leadership is about how we're doing it, and then purposeful leadership is why we're doing it. you know? why is it so important for us to do this? so that's kind of the thinking behind the three the three themes.  Speaker 0: i love that. and you're leading day three. right? purposeful leadership.  Speaker 1: yeah. yes. indeed.  Speaker 0: so what's your presentation or or, yeah, topic going to be?  Speaker 1: um, so so this is the piece about the courage. right? so my talk itself is about the courage to be seen, voice, and visibility. um, and i touch on the evolutionary kind of aspect of sensitive leaders and hsps in general. um, i've kinda been saying this for many years, uh, that your purpose, whoever you are out there listening, has meaning. your calling has meaning. your your drive, whatever drive that you have to achieve something specific, you have that drive for a reason. and i truly believe that, you know? mhmm. so i think for me, when it comes to purposeful leadership, it's kind of like looking beyond what we already know. and there's a a narrative out there around, um, the evolutionary aspect of, say, sensitivity or the evolutionary aspect of neurodiversity and the advantages to society that that different perspectives are offering up, you know. um, for example, you might have pattern recognition, more cognitive complexity, memory skills, and heightened perception, heightened sensitivity. and i believe that we're at a point where those skills need a chance to shine, you know? so that's why i try to empower my clients in recognizing those innate skills before they try to do any strategizing  Speaker 0: in terms  Speaker 1: of what they want to achieve. you know? so that's kind of what i'm covering, uh, on on day three.  Speaker 0: i love that. yeah. and and it's so true that the recognizing the uniqueness and and and also pointing out how these specific skills are so important in the time we're in right now. and that's why there's so much courage needed.  Speaker 1: right? yeah. exactly. so well put. exactly. you know, it all ties in. um, we we we need to find a way to kind of be okay with being seen. because for a lot of hsps and empaths in particular, the sense of being seen, of being visible, um, is a sense of exposure often. you know what i mean? and we don't we don't want that. we don't like that, and i relate to that personally. so it's kind of like bringing ourselves to a place of psychological safety so that we can then lead others.  Speaker 0: yeah. mm. so good. i can't wait. yeah. it's it really sounds like every day has its purpose and is very unique. yeah. yeah. i think so. what do you hope for participants to, to, to take away and come away with after the three days?  Speaker 1: so i'm kind of the eternal optimist always. right. so i just want them to feel empowered. i want them to feel like they're not alone. like you mentioned that there's a community there that we can help each other, that we can support one another and understand one another. i want them to walk away with a sense of possibility and with hope. i think we need more hope these days, right? and we we we can all do our part however small in feeding into to that hope. um, so i hope they they i hope they get a sense of clarity, a sense of confidence in their own way of leading in their own lives. i hope that they can pick up practical tools and ideas around, um, business practices, building connections, managing energy, and then the the inspire. i hope they i hope they'll be inspired. i hope that they will feel inspired, that they have a place, and that we have a role to play, um, in this crazy world today.  Speaker 0: amazing. yeah. and i hope, yeah, that they have the courage to really show up and speak up. and in my talk, i kind of specifically talk about intrepreneurs. so people in companies, but that have this entrepreneurial spirit and, and really feel like, feel called to change. uh, and so, yeah, i just really, with all my heart, hope that they will get the inspiration to to speak up and and change things.  Speaker 1: yeah. i hope so. um, yeah. i love intrapreneurs. i've worked with many of them as well. and i always love, um, the idea of, you know i always say to the entrepreneur, you know, if there's no box on the hierarchy of the company for there, then you need to aim to to aim for the day where they have to create a box for you. you know? because i had a client once where they had to create a box because they just couldn't categorize what he was able to do. um, and i was just it was such a celebration, uh, the day that he told me they've created me a  Speaker 0: new box as a priority. and i  Speaker 1: was like, yes, that's it. you know, that's impactful. that's purposeful, for sure.  Speaker 0: wonderful. well, why don't you tell people again where they can sign up the exact dates? and, and then if people listen to this, you know, after it already happened, maybe they can still sign up for the replays. they can still sign up for next year as well.  Speaker 1: yeah, exactly for next year. so this year, the format is that it's, um, free to attend with fourteen days replays, and then there is a vip upgrade if you want to have the sessions, you know, for lifetime access or whatever. um, and that includes bonuses including some time with ourselves, you know, some coaching sessions. um, so you can sign up the website itself. um, maybe we'll link it below. it's not as nifty, i suppose, as i would like it to be. um, it's empathic leadership summit, but it's it's it's there's a heyessummit.com on it. so i'll just put the link below, um, in the show notes if that's okay because i don't wanna confuse people. um, yeah. so i i really hope that people sign up, that they join us. you know, join the movement. let's redefine leadership together with empathy, um, at the heart of everything.  Speaker 0: yeah. um, yeah. it's so much more than a summit. right? and and i mentioned in the email that i sent out to my subscribers, i'm like, i'm very picky with what kind of summits i speak at. um, and what i like about this is that it really feels more like a movement. and it's also, you know, it's not overwhelming. it's three days. it's only 12 speakers. like, sometimes i get invited and there's 36 speakers. we're like crazy, crazy amount of overwhelm. so yeah.  Speaker 1: that's yeah.  Speaker 0: i'm really  Speaker 1: glad. huge level of energy when yeah.  Speaker 0: when you  Speaker 1: have things like that. and i think that as hsps, our brains just attach then, don't we? we can't quite engage because  Speaker 0: it's  Speaker 1: just it's just too much, too overwhelming. so yeah. i am honored that you were joining the empathic leadership summit, uh, an absolute honor that you're with us for that as a speaker. sarah, thank you so much.  Speaker 0: yeah. thank you. and mention also your website. people want to work, uh, directly with you.  Speaker 1: yeah. so all all the information about my work is on sineadraffertycoaching.com, rafferty.com. um, um, shayraftertycoaching.com. so on there, um, i think the best place to start is i have a free mini course. it's called embracing the gift of high sensitivity. um, and that's a really great place to start. that's where the self validation lies. so if anyone's interested, they can sign up for that.  Speaker 0: wonderful. well, i can't wait. very much look forward to it. thank you, shanay.  Speaker 1: thanks, sarah. thank you so much.  Speaker 4: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode, and i really encourage you to step into courage. you can find out more about sinead at sineadraffertycoaching.com. and most importantly, if you're listening to this episode before 10/21/2025, do join us for the empathic leadership summit. i think it's gonna be great. you can sign up at humane.marketing/leadershipsummit. i just created a pretty link, but i'm not receiving an affiliate commission. i just really believe in sinead and this work. you find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm200andtwenty. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books. sorry. my three books, marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. go be the change you want to see in the world. see you soon.