Legal Spirits

Thomas Jefferson’s 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists—better known for its reference to a “wall of separation” between church and state—was little remembered until Chief Justice Morrison Waite revived it in Reynolds v. United States (1879). With the help of historian George Bancroft, Waite transformed Jefferson’s passing metaphor into a constitutional principle, despite Jefferson’s limited role in drafting the First Amendment. In this episode of Legal Spirits, historians Don and Lisa Drakeman join Center Director Mark Movsesian to explore how Jefferson’s words, and even his passion for French wine, helped shape the Court’s Religion Clause jurisprudence—and to consider what lessons today’s Justices should draw about the risks of using history in constitutional interpretation. Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 071: Jefferson, Wine, and the Wall of Separation appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

Map: The Conversation In Episode 70 of Legal Spirits, Center Director Mark Movsesian speaks with Dan Harre, Deputy Director of Save Armenia, about a significant—and controversial—draft agreement between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Brokered last month at the White House, the terms reflect a major realignment in the region: Armenia relinquishes any claim to Nagorno Karabakh, Azerbaijan backs off earlier demands for extraterritorial control, and the United States gains a 99-year lease on a key new transit route. The episode explores how U.S. foreign policy, Christian advocacy, and strategic infrastructure intersect in the South Caucasus. Dan offers a perspective from within the U.S. advocacy world—one shaped by a broader movement to defend Christian communities in places like Iraq and Syria. The episode also considers how groups like Save Armenia navigate diplomatic tensions between Armenia and Israel, and how this moment relates to past decisions about American involvement in Armenian affairs, including the post-WWI mandate the U.S. ultimately declined. What role did American Christian organizations play in this deal? What’s in it for the United States? And is this a turning point in Armenia’s future? Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 070: Religion & Realism: The New US Role in Armenia appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

Source: National Archives In this episode of Legal Spirits, Center Director Mark Movsesian talks with legal scholar Steven D. Smith about a question that goes to the heart of American law and politics: What happens when people stop believing in “the consent of the governed”? Drawing on Smith’s new paper, The Collapse of Consent, they explore how this once-powerful idea has shifted over time—from a principle rooted in natural law and divine authority to a secular fiction that’s becoming harder to sustain. In an increasingly polarized society, can America’s founding narrative still hold us together? A deep and thought-provoking conversation about legitimacy, identity, and the future of our legal order. The post Legal Spirits 069: The Consent of the Governed appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

In this episode of Legal Spirits, we review the Supreme Court’s major religion cases from the October 2024 Term. From religious charter schools to religious exemptions to parental rights in public education, the Court addressed long-standing issues—and, in one case, made a dramatic move. Join Center Director Mark Movsesian and guest John McGinnis as they unpack the implications of Drummond, Catholic Charities Bureau, and Mahmoud v. Taylor. The post Legal Spirits 068: Religion at the Court: October Term 2024 Recap appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

Washington State Gov. Bob Ferguson at the Signing Ceremony for the New Clergy Reporting Law In this episode of Legal Spirits, we examine a new Washington State law that eliminates the clergy-penitent privilege in child abuse reporting. The law requires clergy to report suspected abuse, even if they learn about it through Confession and other confidential spiritual communications—raising serious questions under the Free Exercise Clause. Host Mark Movsesian and guest Marc DeGirolami discuss the legal framework, historical background, and broader implications for religious liberty. Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 067: Confession and the Constitution appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

We’re back after a bit of a hiatus with a new Legal Spirits episode. Center Director Mark Movsesian talks with Professors Andrea Pin and Luca Vanoni about the International Moot Court Competition in Law and Religion, an annual event that gathers law students from the US and Europe to argue a case before panels representing the European Court of Human Rights and the US Supreme Court. Andrea and Luca discuss how they came up with the idea for this unique competition, its pedagogical goals, and why it has succeeded for a decade and counting. Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 066: The International Moot Court Competition in Law & Religion appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

Photo: Reasonable Theology In this episode, Fordham Law Professors Sean Griffith and Richard Squire join Mattone Center Director Mark Movsesian to talk about their experience leading a discussion of CS Lewis’s Mere Christianity in a student reading group this past semester. Sean and Richard discuss their goals in establishing the group, their students’ response to Lewis–in particular, his defense of natural law and Christian ethics–and the value of taking Christianity seriously as a matter of faith and intellect at a 21st-century American law school. A fascinating and wide-ranging discussion. Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 065: Reading CS Lewis in Law School appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

Ever since President Ronald Reagan popularized the phrase in the 1980s, American leaders have referred to the United States as the “shining city on a hill.” Reagan adapted the phrase from John Winthrop, the 17th century governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, who himself took it from the Gospel of Matthew. But the message has changed down the centuries. What began as a warning to carry out faithfully a mission from God became a boast about the United States and the benefits of human freedom. In this episode, Notre Dame historian Don Drakeman explores the original meaning of Winthrop’s text (Don argues it was in part a sales pitch to Puritan investors!) and its meaning today. Both are part of the American tradition: which meaning is the “real” one? Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 064: A City Upon a Hill appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

Ganzdasar Monastery, a 13th Century Armenian Christian site in Nagorno-Karabakh (Wikipedia) In September 2023, in violation of an order from the International Court of Justice, Azerbaijan ethnically cleansed the region of Nagorno-Karabakh of its 120,000 Christian Armenian inhabitants. In this episode, human-rights attorney Karnig Kerkonian describes the events of a year ago and efforts to hold Azerbaijan responsible in international forums. He also explains the role that religion, understood as a communal and cultural marker, has had in Azerbaijan’s campaign against Christian Armenians. Listen in. The post Legal Spirits 063: Ethnic Cleansing in Nagorno-Karabakh, One Year Later appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

(Robert Sciarrino/The Star-Ledger) When the Cedar Grove School District in New Jersey surveyed students about their religious identities and other sensitive matters, St. John’s Law Professor Patricia Montana went into action. She and other parents sued the district for violating student privacy laws, including the Protection of Pupil Rights Amendment, a federal statute. Last month, the US Department of Education ruled in the parents’ favor. In this episode, Montana talks about her successful legal challenge and explains why she and other parents fought the district’s policy. Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 062: Can a Public School Ask Kids to State Their Religion? appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

Source: KFOR Last month, in a much-watched case, the Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled that a new Catholic charter school, St. Isidore of Seville Catholic Virtual School, violates the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause–and, alternatively, that denying St. Isidore a charter does not violate the school’s rights under the Free Exercise Clause. In this episode, Center Director Mark Movsesian and Notre Dame Law Professor Richard Garnett debate whether the Oklahoma court got the decision right. Is a Catholic charter school constitutional? And are religiously affiliated charter schools a good idea in the first place? Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 061: Is a Catholic Charter School Constitutional? appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

Poplar Grove National Cemetery, Petersburg, Virginia In this episode, Center Director Mark Movsesian interviews religion journalist Kelsey Dallas about the controversy that arose last month when the National Park Service refused to allow the Knights of Columbus to celebrate an annual Memorial Day Mass at a national cemetery in Virginia. The Park Service said it was enforcing the rules against “demonstrations”; the Knights said the refusal violated the group’s religious freedom. Who was right? And what does this controversy reveal about church-state relations in an increasingly secular America? Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 060: Memorial Day, the Knights of Columbus, and the National Park Service appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

Daniel McCarthy In this episode, Center Director Mark Movsesian interviews journalist Daniel McCarthy on his recent essay in Modern Age, “The Other Nones.” Dan argues that the decline of traditional Christianity in the West hasn’t led to the age of rationalism and progress that many secularists predicted, but instead to an age of entropy, in which people have lost faith in unifying narratives of all kinds, political and ideological as well as religious. Can we restore some idea of the common good? Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 059: Daniel McCarthy on “the Other Nones” appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

“Measure for Measure” in the First Folio (1623) First performed 400 years ago, William Shakespeare’s “Measure for Measure” addresses an enduring human dilemma. No society can safely exist without law, but law itself depends on human judgment, which is prone to error and corruption. In this episode, Center Director Mark Movsesian and Northwestern Law Professor John McGinnis discuss this great but problematic play and explore why it remains so humbling for lawyers and judges today. Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 058: Law & Justice in Shakespeare’s “Measure for Measure” appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

In this episode, Center Director Mark Movsesian interviews historian Richard Brookhiser about his new documentary, “Free Exercise: America’s Story of Religious Liberty.” How have minority religions tested and shaped America’s commitment to religious freedom over the centuries–and how has America changed those religions in return? From the Flushing Remonstrance of 1657 until now, it has been a grand story. Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 057: Historian Richard Brookhiser on Religious Freedom in America appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

Chick-fil-A Inc. logo (PRNewsFoto/Chick-fil-A) In this episode, we discuss a bill pending in New York that would require future fast food restaurants at rest stops on the State Thruway to open seven days a week. The bill expressly targets Chick-fil-A, which closes on Sundays in line with the owners’ religious commitments. Does the bill violate Chick-fil-A’s free exercise rights under the US and NY State Constitutions? And what does this controversy suggest about religious practice in the US? Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 056: Can the NY State Thruway Ban Chick-fil-A? appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

Speaker Mike Johnson on CNBC last month In a TV interview last month, House Speaker Mike Johnson raised eyebrows by asserting that Framers welcomed religion in public life and that the Establishment Clause protects religion from the encroachment of government, not the other way around. In this podcast, we show how Johnson was both right and wrong. Many Framers shared his view, but others did not. The controversy over Johnson’s comments is just the latest episode in a continuing debate over the meaning of religious liberty. When we argue about the past, we are really arguing about what our country should be, today. Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 055: Speaker Mike Johnson on the Separation of Church and State appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

Recently, many people have been talking about classical law–specifically whether classical law, with its focus on Christian universals and natural law concepts, can make a comeback in American law schools. Will classical law have traction in an academy dominated by positivism, law-and-economics, and critical theories? Would it be a good thing if it did? We’re joined on this episode by Steve Smith (San Diego) and Julia Mahoney (UVA), who recently debated the question in an online forum, here and here. Sparks fly (just kidding–it’s all among friends, as the above picture suggests). Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 054: Is Classical Law Due for a Comeback? appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

A protester calling for justice for Elijah McClain clashes with a member of the Proud Boys in Denver, Colorado, U.S., November 21, 2020. REUTERS/Kevin Mohatt Welcome back! In our first Legal Spirits episode of the academic year, we interview our friend, law professor Tom Berg (University of St. Thomas) about his new book, Religious Liberty in a Polarized Age. We explore how fights about religious liberty both reflect and contribute to the deep social division in the US today–but also how a commitment to religious liberty might help ease that division. Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 053: Tom Berg on Religious Liberty in a Polarized Age appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.

In our traditional end-of-term wrap up, Marc and Mark discuss the Supreme Court’s decisions in two cases: Groff v. DeJoy, the Title VII religious accommodations case, and 303 Creative v. Elenis, the website designer case. Were these simple cases masquerading as complicated ones? Do they suggest the Court is rethinking its views on free speech, religious freedom, and anti-discrimination law? Listen in to find out! The post Legal Spirits 052: SCOTUS Decides Groff and 303 Creative appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM.