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Podcast
People, Places, Power
47
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People, Places, and Power is a podcast hosted by Nick Cull and Simon Anholt about international relations, foreign policy, and a few other issues along the way.
People, Places, and Power is a podcast hosted by Nick Cull and Simon Anholt about international relations, foreign policy, and a few other issues along the way.
The Verdict? The Nation Brands Index 2022 and Russia's fall from grace.
Episode in
People, Places, Power
In this season finale Simon and Nick discuss the recently published findings of the 2022 version of the Anholt-Ipsos Nation Brands Index. The most noticeable result is that Russia has fallen from 27th place in 2021 to 58th, a dive unlike any other in the history of the index reflecting the international community's alarm at the invasion of Ukraine. They note that Ukraine has not jumped forward in an analogous way, but merely continues to show a gradual improvement in its standing. Simon and Nick discuss these and other features of the new index including the UK dropping out of the top 5, the continuation of German in the top spot and the US remaining 8th. Other issues include a decline of interest in traveling to other places in general and an improvement in the image of Israel.
31:21
Africa on the move? The Prospects for a Better Image.
Episode in
People, Places, Power
In this episode Nick and Simon discuss the shifting image of Africa, taking a lead from the latest version of the Anholt-Ipsos Nation Brands Index. Countries discussed include Egypt and Morocco, South Africa, Kenya, Tanzania and Botswana. Simon argues that external knowledge of culture is the key and proposes a collective effort in that regard like a joint equivalent of the British Council. Nick notes some single country successes like Angola's win at the Venice Art biennale. They agree that progress is slow and conclude with discussion of the increased presence of China on the continent.
28:03
Episode 46: Small is Beautiful? Subnational places and image promotion
Episode in
People, Places, Power
This episode looks at the smaller units of international image—regions and cities—and how they fare in comparison to national images. Issues discussed include whether they help or hurt a national image and whether the promotion of smaller places is worthwhile. Simon starts out noting that some places are known for their products, with Champagne being the most obvious, but many are destined to remain unknown. Nick notes that the European Union benefits from being known for its smaller constituent parts while China's image in much more intimidating because its regional variations are unknown, and the focus is on the national level. Simon and Nick agree that diversity enhances a national image and note the value of regional images even when they are explicitly at odds with the overall nation state as with the case of the Basque Country and Catalonia within Spain. Simon argues that the internal contradictions, tensions and reactions that emerge from the interplay of local and national identities are part of what make nations vibrant and attractive. The conversation ends with discussion of issues around measurement and of the tension between rural and urban identities around the world.
31:15
Episode 45: Bridging the Gulf: Reputation and the Gulf States
Episode in
People, Places, Power
This episode considers the reputation of the Gulf and its most prominent actors including not only the nation states like Saudi Arabia, Qatar and UAE but city state actors like Dubai. First, Simon makes the case that the Gulf is a case of a region's pre-existing negative image dominating perception of constituent parts. He doubts the efficacy of most responses in the circumstance. The conversation includes the perception of Saudi Arabia intimidating and the unlikelihood that the FIFA World Cup in Qatar will help that country's image. Nick raises the positive case of the Abraham Accords as an example of realities changing behind the image. The pair agree that initiatives from the region are frequently impressive but are undermined by a lack of connectivity. Nick suggests that the problem may be the lack of interest of regional royal families in genuine change. He points to particular cases of human rights abuse and royals placing themselves above the law as flaws. Simon argues that there is a fundamental failure of people in the region to understand the values of others and vice versa. The gulf remains unbridged.
33:00
Episode 44: Weighing Image Strategies for Low-Income Countries
Episode in
People, Places, Power
This episode considers the utility of place branding and soft power strategies for countries least developed in these areas. The conversation begins by separating the value of a focused tourism promotion campaign from more general promotion strategies. Simon notes that even a successful tourism campaign can be a liability later, citing the difficulty that Jamaica has had being seen as anything other than a holiday place. Simon and Nick concur that the first step to develop an image must be grounded in research/listening to audiences to discover exactly what the image is. They note the success of some smaller countries in developing specializations that are relevant to international audiences, with the digital work seen in Estonia and Rwanda as good examples. Simon sums up the situation by saying that 'grand strategy is more important than brand strategy' and that the best way to a good image is through a good reality in a relevant field.
32:12
Episode 43: Britain in Transition: the UK's image and the New King and Prime Minister
Episode in
People, Places, Power
This episode considers the image of Great Britain as the country mourns the loss of Queen Elizabeth II and simultaneously adapts to a new Prime Minister—Liz Truss—and a new king: Charles III. The discussion begins with Simon recalling the brand equity derived from having a Royal Family, which he estimates in the billions. Simon and Nick continue discussing the value of the royal family to the management of change, providing a national rhythm like a metronome. The pair give high marks to King Charles for his early remarks with their emphasis on inclusivity and the multi-cultural nature of Britain; they welcome the diversity apparent in the Truss cabinet but bemoan the regrettable impression created by Truss's recent remarks questioning whether France is a friend. Simon argues that the royal funeral and eventual coronation will be a moment for Britain to recharge the batteries of its international image. They agree that because of the human tendency to personify countries as people, King Charles will necessarily be a central element in Britain's image. Nick raises the issue of the new king's past comments on social and political issues and speculates on whether he will be the much-needed rallying voice in the collective struggle against climate change. Simon advances his notion of Monarchy 2.0 by which members of royal families worldwide could be coordinated as a kind of UN upper house to speak on global issues.
33:07
Episode 42: All About Me? National Images and Personal Identity
Episode in
People, Places, Power
This episode probes the connection between personal identity and national image, considering Simon's past contention that national image is an extension of the sense of self. Nick agrees and suggests that the connection helps to explain why people feel so strongly about slights to a nation's standing or evidence that a government has allowed prestige to slip. The conversation moves on to consider the ways in which images of other counties became part of self-identity, including ancestral enemies, countries which are historically connected, and countries whose culture merges with expressions of generational identity. Simon points to the phenomenon of reciprocal liking in national image and how countries like France and Germany each understand that the other admires them. He seldom finds examples of unrequited love. The discussion moves on to consider examples of one nation's symbols becoming fashion statements abroad. Nick and Simon then turn to issues of exclusion and minorities. Nick points out that excluded people sometimes only experience their national identity fully when overseas. They note the integration of identity-based politics into international image: Britain, the US, the Nordics and so forth making their concern of LGBTQ rights a major part of their foreign policy, while Russia makes its hostility to such rights part of its brand. The conversation ends with the question of whether it is wise to identify a country with principles that are not universally held by its citizens.
37:33
Episode 41: Future Perfect: Visions of progress and country image
Episode in
People, Places, Power
This episode considers one of the problems of international relations today: the absence of the kind of compelling visions of the future that inspired international cooperation in the past. Nick argues that countries need a vision for stability and are finding that in distorted idea of the past rather than an image of the future which might be open to collaboration. Simon notes that most people aren't aware of visions articulated at the transnational level. The conversation develops to include positive messages from the Nordics and other 'hipster' nations; negative messages in fiction and the stand-out case of China as a country which does look to the future and builds ideas about the future into its image and diplomacy. They consider whether apocalyptic ideas imbedded in so many religions might hinder the articulation of visions of the future and the merits of different venues for presenting visions such as expos or Disneyland's Tomorrowland. They conclude that the need for positive visions of the future is critical and that the space seems all too vacant.
34:07
Episode 40: Nations and Truth: International Reputation an the age of Disinformation
Episode in
People, Places, Power
This episode considers the implications of the rise of state-sponsored fake news and disinformation for international images. Simon takes the line that the exaggerations of nation branding are on a continuum with all-out lies of malicious propaganda. He calls for better research on public responses to nations using distortion. Does it demonstrably damage reputations? Nick argues that state sponsorship of objective news can be an important component of Soft Power as the BBC is an asset for the UK. He considers the history of this and the ways in our own time by which states are learning to blunt the kind of disruptive media onslaught of the kind deployed by Russia in 2014. He cites the British response to the Skripal case of 2018 and the effective use of so-called 'pre-bunking' strategies in the run up to Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. Simon worries that the loss of confidence in news undermines the whole notion of things being knowable and plays into Russian hands which prompts Nick to stress the importance not merely of single state sponsored sources of objective news like the BBC but of building free media broadly to create multiple sources of credible news at a community level. The conversation ends with agreement that education is the answer and the perhaps our age of disinformation is a necessary wakeup call for a better future.
36:18
Episode 39: Italy: Rising or Falling?
Episode in
People, Places, Power
Today's episode considers Italy, hailed by The Economist in December 2021 for its improvement but in the news in the summer of 2022 for political problems. Simon and Nick dissect elements of Italy's reputation noting both the advantages and pitfalls of its long significance in the cultural field. Simon compares Italy to fellow high-performer, Japan but asks whether and why Italy is seen as decorative rather than useful. Nick questions the role of the diaspora and the connection of Italy to the church as contributors to Italy's significance. Simon presents the profile of Italy in the Good Country Index where weakness in key fields in apparent. The conversation concludes with a discussion of policy responses to ensure that Italy's existing soft power is preserved to provide a future hedge of what Nick has termed 'reputational security.'
32:24
Episode 38: Of Greenwashing and 'Hipster Nations'
Episode in
People, Places, Power
This episode looks at the role of environmental policy as a component of international image and the question of whether countries are following corporations and ‘greenwashing’: laying claim to environmental reputations that they don’t deserve. Cases discussed include Australia, the US and the countries of the Middle East, stuck with a reliance of fossil fuel extraction. Simon argues that whatever the reality the simple fact of the conversation around sustainability is positive as it contributes to a global bandwagon effect by which taking care of the environment is universally expected. Simon also suggests that a middle tier of what he calls 'Hipster Nations' which emphasize the environment has now emerged -- New Zealand, Costa Rica, Chile, Slovenia and so forth -- and are changing the global conversation. Nick looks at the long arc of environmental issues in post-Cold War propaganda and wonders what issues emerging today will be critical to reputations in the future.
30:30
Episode 37: For the Love of Mexico
Episode in
People, Places, Power
In this episode Simon and Nick discuss the reputation of Mexico and the reasons for its relatively poor showing in the Nation Brands Index. They consider Mexican government strategies including the tendency to pay disproportionate attention to US opinion. Conversely Simon and Nick agree that the global image of Mexico remains a byproduct of Hollywood stereotyping. Nick bemoans Mexican missteps at recent World Expos. Turning to the Good Country index Simon argues that Mexico is underperforming in real terms even in areas of great strength such as culture. He argues that a strategy based on a more active global agenda will pay off in a better global image.
32:05
Episode 36: The Power of Language
Episode in
People, Places, Power
This episode considers the power implicit in the popularity or otherwise of particular languages on the world stage, beginning with the question of whether the Nation Brands Index is accurate in showing the admiration of English-speaking countries. Simon and Nick not the counter examples of admired countries whose languages are not global in the same way: Germany, Italy, and Japan, suggesting that having a global language is not a guarantee of global admiration, even if governments have often treated it as such. The conversation continues to consider the Chinese government's investment in the Confucius Institutes; France's work to maintain the Francophonie and the importance of language in British and US cultural diplomacy. Simon and Nick consider the likely impact of the Ukraine war on interest in learning Russian and end by considering the value of simply having a recognizable language as an extension of the country-of-origin effect, whether or not people know what the words actually mean. The pair agree that this is a resource for Japan, Italy, and others.
34:52
Episode 35: Northern Ireland peace and the challenge of 'relevance'
Episode in
People, Places, Power
In this episode Nick and Simon respond to a listener's question about the impact of a potential collapse of the Northern Ireland peace agreement on the image of the UK. After discussing this question, the conversation broadens to include the difference between issues of elite relevance and issues of importance to 'ordinary people'. Simon and Nick discuss the benefits of collaboration and the difficulties in dramatizing issues of broad international relevance like the UN's Sustainable Development Goals to a global audience.
31:13
Episode 34: The Power of “From”: The Country-of-Origin Effect
Episode in
People, Places, Power
This episode revisits a key concept in the study of international image: the ‘country-of-origin effect’ by which countries can enhance the value of products made there and vice versa. Simon notes that an estimated 1/3 of all value in the world is locked in brand value and the desire of some developing countries to develop international brands. He recalls the successful case of Dilmah tea as a Sri Lankan brand. Nick recalls the success of Germany in repositioning its Country-of-Origin narrative from inexpensive manufactured goods in the late 19th century to its high-quality well-designed products in the early 20th century and since – a trajectory followed by Japan and now by China. They discuss brands which imply a false origin and recent attempts to protect an image as when Jamaica objected to Adidas using its national colors on shoes.
33:07
Episode 33: What’s in a Name? Renaming places as a Strategic Gambit
Episode in
People, Places, Power
Inspired by media reports of the Turkish government attempting to assert the Turkish spelling of their name, this episode considers strategies of naming/renaming/spelling. Turkey’s move is discussed in the context of its history. Simon suggests four categories of renaming: the post-colonial shift to a more authentic local name as with Swaziland/Eswatini or Madras/Chennai; the attempt to be more memorable because one’s name is insufficiently distinct as when Slovenia considered Alpe-Adria; the power-play as when a regime rebrands key places (as with Astana/Nursultan) and the names of historical revival such as Israel. Nick argues that part of Czecholosvakia’s problem in the mid-20th century was the lack of resonance around its name. Simon notices that some languages have changed names while others keep older names longer. Italians still call Beijing ‘Pechino’ (the equivalent of ‘Peking’). Simon recalls the process by which Pakistan invented its name. Nick muses on whether some countries actually need a name change. Simon raises the issue of countries with multiple names (including the UK) and counties retaining a definite article in their name.
33:49
Episode 32: Reckoning with the Pandemic: COVID 19, image, media and communication
Episode in
People, Places, Power
This episode takes an overall view of COVID 19 and its impact on reputation. Simon points out that the damage to reputations was only slight as most people really aren’t interested in the internal affairs of other places. Image seems to be following expectations. People assume that Sweden managed the pandemic well even though they didn’t. The later discussion highlights the importance of real global collaboration and the problems of misinformation/disinformation evident during the pandemic. Nick notes the problem of opinions which should have been lightly held becoming full components of political/tribal identity. Simon notes the problem of politicians learning that lying to the public has few consequences. They agree that flaws in media became highly visible. Simon expresses the hope that the negative example of collective responses to the pandemic might guide a better response to climate change. The discussion closes with a plea for more critical thinking.
35:58
Episode 31: Honest to God: The image of Religions and other Transnational Groups
Episode in
People, Places, Power
In this episode Nick and Simon think about the reputation of transnational ideas and organizations, starting with religions. Nick recalls regimes which have actively asserted a religious affiliation. Simon notes that today most western countries seek to distance themselves from a religious identity and embrace an image of tolerance. Cases discussed include Saudi Arabia, Poland, and the historical strategies of the Vatican. Shifting to other transnational groupings, Simon notes that indigenous communities and small island nations around the world have begun to connect transnationally to collective benefit. Nick notes the absence of the usual zero-sum game in the collective work on indigenous communities. Other cases discussed include pan-African politics and people with disabilities. The conversation cycles back to religion and discussion of the benefit of religions collaborating to rethink the image of faith as a broad category in the 21st century. The podcast closes with a discussion of extremism as a universal problem and challenge of attempting moderation/modernization.
31:04
Episode 30: Issues in the Index: The Nation Brands Index 2021
Episode in
People, Places, Power
This episode considers the results of the Nation Brands Index for 2021. Issues include the limited post-Trump recovery of the US image, the declining image of Britain and improving image of Canada. Simon discussed the arrival of Iceland in the index and continued rise South Korea. This year's NBI research included questions about priority issues. Simon notes that poverty was the most serious issue for audiences in the Americas and Africa, while the Asia/Pacific prioritized climate. Other stories include Israel, Palestine, UAE and the striking public 'forgiveness' of China for mishandling COVID.
34:10
Episode 29: Meet the Goodest: The Good Country Index for 2022
Episode in
People, Places, Power
In the episode Simon introduces the fifth iteration of the Good Country Index (index.goodcountry.org/) now published in partnership with Diplomatic Courier. He explains the nature of the index as an aggregation of contributions to the global good. Nick pulls out particular countries for scrutiny including the USA at #46. They agree that the top of the table (with Sweden once again in first place ahead of Denmark and Germany) shows the collaborative nature of European countries. Other countries examined include Russia -- continuing a decline -- and China and the stark contrast between UAE at 65th and Qatar at 109th with an especially poor score in cultural contributions (136th). Countries performing well include Cyprus at 16th and South Africa at 44. The conversation wraps up considering how the index plays into actual policy.
32:39
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