PODCAST - SURF MASTERY

141 Stop Paddling for Waves - The Beginner Surfing Advice Nobody Gives You Surf Mastery Podcast Download What if catching more waves as a beginner had less to do with paddling harder, and more to do with timing and wave selection? Many beginner surfers waste energy chasing every patch of whitewater, only to miss waves, struggle to stand up, and finish each session feeling frustrated. In this episode, surf coach Michael Frampton explains a simpler approach that helps you conserve energy, choose better waves, and develop skills that will support your surfing for years to come. You’ll discover: How to catch whitewater waves without paddling by using a simple, well-timed movement What separates strong, smooth whitewater waves from weak, turbulent ones How timing, ocean awareness, and efficient habits can help you stand up more often and learn faster Play the episode to start catching better waves with less effort and build the foundational skills every confident surfer needs. To download the free PDF: "The Intelligent Beginners Guide to Surfing" click this link: https://mailchi.mp/surfmastery/the-intelligent-beginners-guide-to-surfing Transcript: ​ Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps you to be a better surfer in and out of the water. I'm your host, Michael Frampton, and today's episode is for beginner surfers. Now, I've been a surf coach for over 15 years, and I've worked with hundreds of surfers, including the absolute beginners. And I've realized recently that this podcast doesn't actually have much information for the absolute beginner, so I've got a couple of absolute gems here for you. Tip number one is to stop paddling for waves. Firstly, let me explain the drill so that you can visualize how to catch waves without paddling, and then I'll explain a bit more as to why we do this drill. So the no paddling method. All you need to do is walk out into waist-deep water, you turn yourself and your surfboard around so that you're facing the beach. And the next whitewater wave that comes towards you that you want to catch, wait, wait until the last second, and just before the whitewater hits the tail of your board, you jump forward and onto your board. That's it. You've caught the wave. That's the simplest and easiest way to catch a wave as a beginner. Now, the biggest mistake that people make on this drill is not having the board at 90 degrees to the wave. If you have your board slightly angled wrong to the wave, then you're gonna dig rail, and you're not gonna catch the wave. So make sure it's at 90 degrees to the approaching wave. Now, the no paddle method is gonna save you a lot of energy. It's efficient, and it's teaching you the most important thing in surfing, which is timing, especially when it comes to catching waves. That well-timed little burst of momentum and intention is all that you need to catch the wave at any level actually. You don't need to waste energy paddling This drill will also help you to realize that catching waves is a lot easier than you think, and it's got very little to do with paddling power. It's got everything to do with timing and of course wave selection, which segues into tip number two. Tip number two is catch the best whitewater waves. So now as beginners, we often think that whitewater is just whitewater. We paddle out and catch whatever comes towards us. But not all whitewater waves are equal. Some white water waves are more powerful than others, even though they might be the same size. Some run smoothly all the way to the beach, and some are interrupted by cross waves and backwash or turbulence or water coming back out. There are lots of wave refractions and water movements that happen in that space between the white water wave and the beach So your job as a beginner isn't simply to catch the whitewater, it's to catch the best whitewater waves. Now, that means learning to read the waves and more importantly, learning to read the movement of water in front of the wave. If you've done some surfing already, you've probably noticed that some whitewater waves are incredibly easy to catch and they push you effortlessly all the way to the beach. Other ones just seem to have no power at all, or some are messy, unpredictable, and even chaotic. And it all seems random as to which is which. But that's just because you haven't seen the finer details yet. There are reasons that these waves behave differently, radically differently often, even though at first glance they look very similar. And your job is now to start observing those reasons Generally, you're looking for the stronger whitewater waves that have smooth, uninterrupted water in front of them. So between you and the beach, you want nice smooth water, free of any other waves or any other radical water movements. Then that whitewater wave that's coming towards you has nice water to push you over and through. The best surfers read the ocean the best. Now, that is true for every level of surfer, and that's what you're building right from the beginning. So both of these tips are very considerate of a concept called performance strands. A performance strand is something that's existed in coaching of a lot of other developed sports like tennis, for example. It's basically saying that whatever habit you build in the beginning should stay with you through your entire journey through that sport. For example, in tennis, it would be the way that you hold the racket. If you spend time making sure that you hold the racket correctly in the beginning, then that is a habit that you'll take with you, , through your entire tennis journey And that would be considered a performance strand. So when you're learning how to surf, it's important that you consider this concept so that everything that you learn in the beginning will hold you steadfast through your entire surfing journey. And developing the perspective that waves are easy to catch if you get the timing and wave selection right is an important performance strand The opposite of that might be what you would pick up, at a large surf school that's giving a tourist-based experience, whereas you just go out there and you paddle hard for anything that's coming in So to summarize these two tips, we could say that your objective as a beginner surfer is to catch the best whitewater waves in the simplest, most efficient way possible These will be the waves that are the easiest to stand up on and that will give you the longest ride. So you'll actually learn faster because you'll be standing on your surfboard more, and you're learning the timing of catching waves, and you're learning how to read waves and the way water moves, Which are the two most important skills that any surfer at any level can develop Now we've got more details on those tips, plus a lot more tips for the beginner surfer, including where to surf, equipment, surfing philosophy, lots, lots more, and it's all inside the free PDF called The Intelligent Beginner's Guide to Surfing, which is now available at surfmastery.com. You will see it there on the homepage. All you need to do is enter your email address, and you will be sent this PDF directly to your email. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend, and if you're new to the podcast, the podcast has a 10-year back catalog of timeless episodes full of surfing advice. So I urge you to go all the way back to episode number one And I hope surfing stays with you. Until next time, keep surfing The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

What if becoming a better surfer isn’t about catching more waves - but about thinking differently in the water? In this episode, Coach Chris from The Surf Continuum unpacks the deeper layers of surfing that often go unnoticed: the philosophy behind progression, the importance of surf culture and etiquette, and how maturity in the water can transform your entire experience. If you’ve ever felt frustrated, stuck, or disconnected from your surfing, this conversation offers a refreshing, thoughtful perspective. Gain insight into how mastering fundamentals and simplifying your approach leads to true, lasting progression Learn how surf culture, respect in the lineup, and ethical decision-making shape not just your surfing, but your identity as a surfer Discover how breaking surfing down into simple, learnable fundamentals removes overwhelm and builds real skill How shifting from performance-driven surfing to a more present, aware, and intentional approach can deepen your enjoyment and longevity in the sport Press play to explore a more thoughtful, grounded approach to surfing, and start evolving not just as a surfer, but as a human in the water. https://thesurfcontinuum.com https://www.instagram.com/thesurfcontinuum/ https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/kookcast-surf-education/id1387032167   To see and purchase the Surf Basis Paddle Trainer: www.surfbasis.com For $30 off use Discount code: SURFMASTERY Transcript: ​ Coach Chris: it's cool because our philosophy is the same. It's our unifying, kind of path. But obviously our personalities and our approaches and and delivery of of that same philosophy comes out differently. Michael Frampton: So what's the philosophy? Coach Chris: Lemme just put it really simple first and then we can get into the nuance and the nitty gritty of it. , Fundamentals. That's it. As somebody who really appreciates learning and also teaching. My, my mother was a teacher , my father, he wasn't a formal teacher, but he was just, he was a good teacher, , at whatever he was trying to share with you. For him, it would be mostly sailing, but anything, he was patient and, and just, he had the art, you know, he could have been a teacher. , And just something I really started catching on to with anything I was interested in was that if you could figure out what the basic things were, and I mean the most basic, like really break it down to the cellular level, you can build everything up from there. And also because it's very easy to get distracted by , the goal or the big picture or the ultimate destination. And with surfing, that's riding a beautiful wave. , I guess you just, you have the cover shot in your head when you think of surfing and when you start learning. But really that's like the end result. The work to get there is just comprised of a lot of very simple things that individually, anybody can learn in a day, but it's piecing it all together and getting the timing and the application. That's where it becomes like the, , the complex looking thing, but really broken down. It's all simple things. . Fundamentals, and , that's what I feel like I wanna do with my students is, is bring them back to this basic, deconstruction of surfing. I think it makes it a lot more, , digestible too. It's less intimidating, you know, you don't have to do all these things, you just have to focus on one piece at a time, and then as you put it all together, it starts to become, oh, this is it. I'm doing surfing. Michael Frampton: So true. Yeah, the fundamentals are unavoidable and they're there for every surfer. Whether you are, a beginner or you're, , even someone really technical like Chipper Wilson, he's still, , in order to do a technical air, you still have to do a good bottom turn. You still have to read the ocean correctly , and do a good popup. So sometimes we only see, we only see him do a, some weird technical trick. We don't realize it's, it all comes from fundamentals. And then you've, of course you've got surfers who have made a name just sticking to only the fundamentals. I mean, there's nothing more beautiful than watching, , John, John just do a bottom top turn combo. Coach Chris: Oh man. Yeah. A great person to watch and see simple surfing done beautifully. , Yeah. But it's, , I just, I really do believe that the simplicity and masterful execution of the most simple things, it looks really great. It looks really complex. It looks really professional, and it, it doesn't necessarily have to be anything that's, , all that difficult. It's just. I think we, we easily, as humans, we wanna get on with it. You know, you wanna get to what you think you're trying to do and, and it rushes you past things that you should really get a little bit more obsessed over, you know? And when you really spend all your time and, and just really, , obsessed, that's the word you get obsessed with it to, and you don't move on so easily. Like, oh yeah, yeah, I know how to paddle. I know how to paddle. If you get obsessed, you start really discovering things. You start figuring out just how you lay on your board can change the world for you and how you catch waves. Michael Frampton: Yeah. So true. So you started Surf Continuum, correct? Mm-hmm. Which is a surf school. Is that the best way to put it? Coach Chris: I would say no school sounds like a big group of people. , One thing that, you know, so my partner and I started the surf continuum, Evan and I, , and we did work, in surf schools and the, the business model with the surf schools is volume based. You know, just try to crack off as much as you can in one day. And I understand it, you know, no, not throwing any shade. Um, I get why that has to be done, especially for seasonal places like where I live. We have a small window where tourists can come out and surf and have a, comfortable time. So you really are forced to, to pack it in as much as you can in a day. But, you know, just right off the bat of doing it, something didn't sit right with me. , When I joined this group and I, I remember one like our, probably our first busy day of the year, just looking kind of left and right and realizing like, whoa, the majority of the lineup is us, you know, our, the instructors with their students . , It's a pretty powerful thing to go out with a surf instructor who, who's put all these years in and understands where to position, how to set you up, and get you into a wave. And, and then with the push and all, , we were getting so good, we were barely pushing our students into waves. We could instruct them to get them moving and doing all the stuff. And then just that little guidance where people usually hesitate and pull back, that's where you just kind of insist that they continue with a little nudge from the tail, you know? But, I just. I didn't really like it, you know, I felt like I've always had it in my heart. I grew up in like real surf culture where, you know, if you were riding anything over then six foot, not that this is right, but if you were riding anything over six foot, you get outta here, go down the beach, whatever, , if you showed up with more than a friend, you know, or you came packed in a, in a car or a boat. Another reason to, to shoo you away if at at best. So all those things kind of influenced the surfer I became later in my life. And, and that was one of them was like, wow, we're crowding this spot and the people who are out here to surf can't really surf around us because we're good at what we do. So not only is it us as good surfers, but we're getting all these students into waves. And then we're,, following 'em in on our own wave. Like there was just no meat left on the bones for any other surfers. And I felt like that was really, that wasn't right. You know, it felt like beginners need to earn their way up. They need to work their way up. And I just kind of took it upon myself. I'm like, well, I don't, I can't change the world or even change this surf school, so I'm going to go out on my own and I'm gonna teach strictly like one-on-ones. , I'm not gonna try and grow. I'm not gonna try and get more instructors. , And I'm gonna try and be, just try to impart a little bit more of that surf culture that influenced me, and I'll filter out some of the unnecessary ego stuff. Of course, you know, boards now I ride everything, you know, I ride finless, foamies, mid lanes, probably long boards of the least, but I got nothing against them, you know? And then of course, my shortboard, but probably least of all now is, is what I ride. , But the other stuff, , the parts, the, the parts of surf culture that I felt were. Good and reasonable. And what made you really feel like you belong to the culture? , I try to keep in my teachings and so one of those things is not showing up in a big old group. You know, being discreet, being respectful, not paddling out to the peak as a, as a new beginner, just because you're with an instructor and thinking you're gonna get all the waves. No, I, I humble myself and I sit on the inside with my student and we pick up scraps and we pull back if there isn't, you know, if, if someone's on it. , And I, and it's just, it really makes the journey more impactful and I feel like it makes the stages of your growth feel better than having it all in the first day, you know, or the first few moments of surfing to get all of the rewards so early, kind of spoils the rest of the journey, I think. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that tourist experience. It gives you, a false perspective on surfing, I think sometimes, isn't it? Yeah. They're trying to get you to stand up on the first wave and perfect conditions and the right beach and blah, blah, blah. Coach Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's again, , like we're getting at, it's, it, these are earned things. These are things that you start picking up on, like, oh, when the wind's offshore, the conditions are cleaner. Huh. You know, I didn't put that together until like, I don't know how many years into surfing. I just wanted to get to the beach, and if I saw white whitewater, I was pumped. It took me a long time before I started thinking about conditions and, , also I was a kid, but, , I, I think that's a really important mentality to try and capture in your beginner days is like this tolerance for anything. Like, you're just so pumped to, to get another chance to practice that. You know, you don't care about conditions. In fact, I, what's something I like to say is the worst condition is crowd. And when is there a crowd when surf lines calling green? , So when I get like these onshore wind reports or, , when we're getting like, oh, bad day for surfing, quote unquote, I'm writing out to my students, , and I, my little mailing list I have, and I'm going, this is gonna be a great day for us. There's gonna be nobody out. We should all be surfing. This is our day. , Bring back that, you know, grom mentality of, you know, less people, at least less crowd I should say. 'cause people are great. But, , it's the crowd, the, the pack and the, the people who are attracted to the good conditions where you start getting this, it, it taints your mindset too early in your surfing journey. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Well that's a great origin story and it's. The best sort of philosophy for a surf coach to have. , I hope it catches on because I don't think so, man. , I think it'll balance out some. It, I mean, it has to, I mean, there's certain spots where it won't, you're right. Especially, you know mm-hmm. Beginner friendly spots. Um, you know, it's always gonna sort of be that way, uh, in, in, in a way it's sort of the conditions, when the conditions get challenging, it's sort of, that's what separates the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. And I just think as experienced surfers who hold onto those sort of old school traditional ethical surf values, we just have to travel really. And we have to embrace that adventure surfer in us and, or, ride a different board around the corner where the waves aren't so crowded. That's, that's sort of what I do. But it's a shame. Absolutely. Yeah. It's a shame when your local spot turns on, you wanna surf it, you're, you're kind of zigzagging your way through a bunch of people that dunno what they're doing it can be frustrating. Coach Chris: Yeah. There are days where the, the perfect storm comes together and you know, it, it's like not too big that they can't send them out, but it is just pristine and beautiful and it really should be something more reserved for the, you know, the, the ones who've put their time in. But, you know, one other thing to the origin story is that I understand also the tourist approach to it. The amusement park ride, let's just call it what it is. I think my problem is not that business model itself, it's more so the semantics. They're still calling it surf lessons, , or surf instruction, and it's like, no, no. That's not instruction. This is a ride. It's a very fun ride. Yes. Enjoy it. Have fun. And, and a lot of those people, they don't come back to go surfing again or, or maybe they do next summer, but they're not actually trying to learn how to surf. They just kind of want to have the experience. Cool. That's fine. What I started finding though, in those people were people who did want to learn how to surf, who really had this intention of like, I'm gonna, I think this is something I want to commit to, but they were just falling into the same tourist version of the lessons, you know, but because it was called surf lessons, they thought they're in the right place. And I was like, okay, these are my people. You know, there's fewer of them mixed in to the rest of the tourist crowd. But if I can get my message right and, and my voice out there to, to help these people identify themselves as not quite the surf lesson crowd and find me instead. I thought, okay, there's a, there's a path for me here. You know, there's, there's people. 'cause you know that that'll never change. There's always gonna be tourists who want to go on the surf ride, you know, and, and let 'em, I, I don't mind, uh, I just, the people who really wanna learn how to surf, they're the ones that I want to capture and be like, okay, come on. Let's go out when the conditions are shitty, let's go, , let's go paddle, let's go talk about for the whole time how to paddle better, how to position on the board. Let's get nuanced and crazy about all that stuff. Let's not go to the best wave where the people are, like you said, and go down there. There's no one there. And the wave is just less often or smaller, or , a little bit more title, whatever it is. But accept all those things as, , part of the journey of learning how to surf. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Oh, there's such a need for that way of thinking. Especially because there's so many people that I think did have that tourist experience surf. Their, their first experience was with a tourist operator and, and then they thought, I wanna commit to this. And then I think back when we grew up surfing, the locals and the elders, they sort of shunned us and shamed us and probably spoke quite harshly to us. And that's how we learn some of the ethics and the finer details in, in surfing. But there's just so many newcomers to surfing that those people don't have the, the time to do that. So basically nowadays, instead of the elder, local surfers actually imparting some wisdom, albeit maybe a little too harshly, but hey, um, they, they just ignore it. That they just surf around you and drop in on you. And so there's all these people that aren't getting, , knowledge from, from the locals. They're just having locals run rings around them. , 'Cause they don't have the, you don't have the time. It used to be one or two , new surfers in the water. You, you educate that way. But nowadays there's, gosh, it feels like there's 50 sometimes and you've gotta literally surf through. You ca you don't have time to stop and say, Hey, you make sure you don't paddle in front of me and keep over there, or whatever it is. So we need , more of what you are doing for sure. So happy to help you put the message out there, but let's see. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go back even further. When, when did you personally start surfing? Coach Chris: Oh, okay. So I was a little bit older. I wasn't like a grom grom, like I really wished I had been, four, five, and six. Like my daughter, she's dragging her boogie around when she's, you know, one and a half years old. I love it. I'm so excited for her, um, to have that experience. You know, literally just dragging the boogie around. Hasn't even gone with her. Boogie in the ocean and tried to get waves yet. Now she's two and a half. But, so I started surfing around, , 12 and I probably wanted to surf for a year and a half before that, but it took me a good year and a half, maybe two, to get a surfboard leading up to that. I have the best foundation that anybody could have to learn how to surf, which is boogie boarding, body boarding, whatever you'd like to call it. I like it. I like boogie. That's what I grew up calling it, and I still like to call it Boogie, the Boogie Board. Um, and I've been doing that since, you know, grom days just. Out in the water, straight up the beach, out in the water, waist deep, straight up the beach, blasted by whitewater over and over and over again. And it wasn't until I started teaching surfing that I realized how important that was as a foundation for my surfing. And then also realizing like, oh my God, every great surfer to some extent or another rode their boogie. It's, it's a, it's a high rep, safe, manageable piece of equipment. , There's just so much, it's so much surfing packed into such a smaller amount of time and on all these adults I work with that just get on a surfboard. It's tough because it takes not, not only longer because they're adults and we all know that children learn things so much better. And as you get older, you just less supple. Both physically and mentally to, to take new things on. , Now by skipping the Boogie and all the reps you can get and the high intense, you know, amount of work you can get done, you're going out there paddling, sitting, waiting. Passing up waves if you're being respectful, ethical surfer, because it's not your turn. You can't get in position better than other people. You're going surfing when it's good condition, so everyone else is out surfing. So you get, you can really potentially get into a tough spot. , So I had been boogie boarding, , I apologize for all these tangents for that. Michael Frampton: , I, I'm gonna interject one thing that I think the root, the roots of surfing is, and what I tell my kids all the time is, when it's raining outside and you get a piece of cardboard and you walk up a little hill and you slide down and you walk back up and you come. That's it. That's, and I always remind my kids, Hey, remember a couple years ago when you just walked out to chest deep water and rode a white water wave in? That's just go out there, catch a wave coming. That's all it is. It's just real simple letting mother nature give you , some glide. That's, that's if we, that's the roots. Yeah. And that's why adults get caught up. So, and they don't realize that as kids, we, especially good surfers, went through that stage for often years. Coach Chris: Years. Years. , And it was years for me. And like I said, I mean, towards the end of those years I wanted to surf so bad. I was trying to stand on my boogie board 'cause , you're a kid and I, I, I fell for the whole, I'm not surfing. Boogie boarding isn't surfing. Surfing is surfing. , But yeah, what, 12 or 13 years old is when I started and then I was hard I, any opportunity. My father is a sailor and he loved to sail in the ocean on like, hobie cats, , like beach cats. He wasn't just like a leisure cruisey sailor. He wanted to rip and go sailing in the ocean. So that was great for me. 'cause now we both want to go to the ocean and I grew up sailing with him. Now this is where I started. , He was a big part of my love for the ocean. But this is, , I started finding my own passion in the ocean. But we both still needed to go to the same place so we could easily. I could easily get him to go, you know, to the ocean. He even just to check his boats, , it was so easy. So I could go to the beach with him. , My friend had a boat and that was a key 'cause I live, I lived right by the water, , but shadowed by barrier Islands. So you'd either have to drive 30 minutes in either direction to get a bridge across to the barrier islands and then drive to the beach. So it, it could be like a 40 minute ride to get to, to surfing by car, but by boat it was like 10 minutes. And believe it or not, at an early age, we were allowed to take that boat somehow. I don't know, thinking back on it, it's crazy that they allowed us, we , and his dad thought he was doing a, uh, like a good thing he put a governor on the boat so that we could putt across. We figured out how to take that thing off in no time. So we were flying full steam ahead across the bay. , But yeah, just trying to get to the beach any chance I got any possible way, , until I could drive and, uh, yeah, then I was driving illegally for two years to get myself to the beach. So I really, it was just about , surfing. Like once I started riding surfboards, it dictated like all the decisions I made in my life. Michael Frampton: Yep. And how would you describe your current relationship to surfing and the ocean and how has it evolved over the years? Coach Chris: Oh, that's a great question. 'cause I really do think about that kind of thing. . Like where it was, we were watching some videos recently, a couple of friends I grew up surfing with, and we were like, were we better? Were, did we surf better back then? You know, because we were like, wow, I feel like I was ripping there and, and like, now I'm so much more leisure, right? I care about different things is the conclusion I came to back then. I really cared about like how much water was flying off my tail when I, you know, snapped it up in the lip, how well I connected it. Sure, I still wanna do a great turn, but I care more now about positioning in the ocean. I care more about being a good surfer in different ways, , the way I see the ocean, the way I see water moving, like the invisible forces that you don't realize until you're looking back at the beach and you realize you're 300 yards down from where you started. I like to be more on top of that now, ahead of the game, , and be observant of other surfers and what's happening to them into the, in the water. , I certainly ride all kinds of boards now. I'll ride anything, which is a stark contrast from what I used to be. I used to be diehard shortboard, you know, 5 8, 5 7 thrusters only. Now I don't, I can't even tell you the last time I wrote a thruster. I'm on twenties, I'm on finless boards. , And I just, I've really come to know what I like because it's what I decided I like and not what I felt like I had to do to appease. I don't know, the group I was hanging with even they didn't know what they were. You know, we were all obeying some unknown higher power of what it meant to be a good surfer, and it was totally wrong for 99% of us, the industry, you know, maybe for the guys looking to go pro Yeah. The industry. Right, right. And I think the other way that I've changed my surfing is I, I, I wrote this in A PDF for my students, but it's called the Art of Missing Waves. And it's a layered, , philosophy. You know, there's many aspects to how you can gracefully miss a wave. One of them, the obvious is that you don't try too hard to catch a wave that doesn't, isn't quite doing it. You know, we've all been there. You see a wave, it looks great. You start going for it, and it starts laying down. It hits a deep spot or something. It doesn't quite keep standing. And how many people do you see double down and paddle harder to try and insist on catching it? So the art of missing waves is like, no, let it go. Like, read the room. It's not, it's not a wave you, you should be riding, but it's also a little more philosophical in the sense that you can't always be at the ocean when it's firing. You can't always get your session in when you want to. Especially now having kids and a wife and these other things, other responsibilities that are. Well, they're scoring in their own ways, but if you're so locked into surfing and you keep that teenager heads, uh, space about having to be there, you drive yourself crazy. So I've also become a lot more willing and, and graceful about missing sessions. Basically what I'm trying to say is I surf less. Mm. And I'm not mad about it. Yeah. I've surfed a lot in my life and, uh, I'm very content with how much I've surfed and how much I still surf, and, uh, I just feel like, yeah, I'm scoring in new ways now in my life and it's, it's fun, it's exciting and I want to enjoy it and I don't wanna wish myself away or wish I was somewhere else while I'm actually doing things that other people dream of having. Michael Frampton: Yeah. So would you say that when you do surf, your equipment is, fits the conditions better, your attitude fits the conditions better, and you're actually more present as well? Coach Chris: Sure. Yeah. Yep, absolutely. , I always like to say like, being a good surfer or, or a surfer is just a, a label that we like to use for ourselves, ourselves being humans. So if you wanna be a better surfer, you can be a better human, you know? And, and it really helps you, like we just said, you know, not, uh, not missing when you're missing the waves, not, not fomo or whatever, , torturing yourself. And then on the other hand, when you are surfing, being really grateful for it, being really present, you know? I like that word you used , and just. Being there and, and enjoying every bit of it. I think that's just a, a maturity thing of so many years of surfing and also just getting older as a human that you, you come to, to realize, maybe not everybody, but I think a lot of people do. Michael Frampton: Yeah. There's, , I thought I have around that, which is, I see surfing in a similar way. Like I went through a state when I was younger. I was completely obsessed with it. There was fomo, there was short boards, you know, wanting to rip the bag out of it every turn, blah, blah. Same kind of thing. Right. And, I spent a lot of time and effort in getting better at surfing short boards and seeking fast, powerful waves and, . I don't approach surfing that way at all anymore. I'm far more aligned with the way you just described it. But I wonder would I be able to, because I can go out into a crowded lineup and get, and choose fun waves and have a good time. But if I hadn't gone through that obsessed sort of FOMO stage of my surfing life, would I still have the surf knowledge and , the calmness and the ocean awareness to be able to do that? And like if, if I've got a client who's already a bit of an older surfer and is starting later, do I need to encourage them to go through that obsessed, you need to be obsessed with surfing and surfing all the time and you know, blah, blah, blah in order to get better. Or can you have that mature laid back present and still become a good surfer and read the ocean and get your, your reps in. Coach Chris: That's a really great thought. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I think, well, they have something like speaking about your client different than we had, which is us, uh, an instructor. Hmm. So maybe that supplements some of the knowledge they would otherwise have needed to get through obsession. Um, yeah. But that's, that's a really good point. I think there's a version of it for them. You know, a version of obsessed, which is basically like ignorant to conditions, or not ignorant, but just don't care. You know, maybe they know it's good or bad conditions on the scale of what surfers consider, but don't care about it. Be obsessed enough that you just wanna surf. Like, if you have this window, that's your time. You're going surfing well within reason. You know, I'm not telling people to paddle out and bombing on shore conditions, but I, I'm just talking about there's a lot, there's quite a lot of days that the lineup is mostly empty. I mean, it's it empty compared with what it would look like if it was clean and offshore, just because the wind is on it a little bit. It's a little wrinkled. It's a little ruffled. We've really trained something in our eyes to see that as not good. And that kind of blows my mind because like I said earlier, I, I remember not even being able to see, like all I saw, it was black and white. It was whitewater or no whitewater. You know, like there was a wave or there wasn't a wave. That was it. It can I ride it? In fact, I even remember being excited when the wind was on shore because I knew there had to be something, something had to be breaking. If there was an onshore wind, it's a little more risky when it was an offshore wind, you know, like sometimes you'd go and, I mean I'm in New York, so we do have some real deal flat spells where flat is flat. I'm not talking like it's small, it's flat, like there isn't a breaking wave. Maybe just a little ankle slapper lapping up on the beach and you know, so you're like turning around and going home. Totally bummed, so I, I think there's a version of it, you know, for the older, older folk who start later in life. But yeah, I, I don't know. I can't say with any kind of certainty. Well, what do you think about it? What do you feel? Do you, are you conflicted by it or do you have an answer if they should be obsessive like you were as a kid? Michael Frampton: I think a lot of it's got to do with managing their expectations first of all. If they're in a position where, they've worked hard, they've saved money, and they can afford to, you know, to go and go and spend six weeks in the Maldives and take a bunch of boards with you surf for eight hours a day, hell yeah. Sure, yeah. You know, you, if you're a bit older, you, you may, maybe it's not eight hours a day, maybe it's five and you've gotta do a, get a massage afterwards to, you know, you don't have a young body anymore. So, little nuance, managing expectations like that. , I also totally agree with what you said. , Back then we didn't have us, like one of the biggest tips in my surfing journey was when Tom Carroll, , said, you've gotta look for the details. I remember going surfing with him, and he was in his late forties and I'm in my early thirties and he's catching these waist high waves and just doing full roundhouse cutbacks, going four times faster than anyone else. I couldn't even catch these waves. And I was on a thicker board. I was like, how? And he's, oh, looking at, looking for the details, looking at the ripples, getting eyes down and looking across , oh. And that. Now I'm looking for the details in the waves. Mm-hmm. And the refractions and the secondary and tertiary swells and the way the water's drawing off the bottom, the way that the tides, so I can impart that now onto new surfers. And often when, when I go surfing with, with someone, or if it's a one-on-one surf lesson, , I'm not really doing traditional video footage and surf technique analysis. I'm more of a surf guide and I'm saying, see how. See how there's that little indicator, that little wave that broke, you know, 400 meters out there, hit that rock, and there's that splash. That means there's a set coming from the south and we're gonna paddle across here, and you see that bump here and it's that wave sliding across to there. I want you to paddle over there and take off on an angle. So I'm trying to impart some of the, the details that I'm seeing in, in the waves so that they can start to look for it now earlier on in Surf journey I think that also for the, for the older surfers, they need to know those details 'cause they're not as young and supple and they can't make as many mistakes and bodies aren't made of rubber and have endless energy and less inflammation. So you've got to sort of teach 'em that stuff. They're obviously a bit older, so they're open to it as well. And I also think that information helps calm the nervous system as well, so they can actually be a bit more relaxed in the water. Yeah. But yeah, it, it's nuance and it certainly does depend on, on the client and their expectations and also their intentions. Like, it makes me think of, I did an episode recently, I read some books about longevity, and did an episode where I sort of summarized them in, in terms of surfing. It's like we actually, we can become better surfers as we get older, and sort of. Maybe not better as in WSL surf technique, ripping a shortboard better. That's not what I meant, right? Mm-hmm. I meant we can go out and catch better waves and be more selective and choose the right surfboard. And when we surf and, , you know, if we maintain our bodies to a certain degree, may even, even maintaining a certain level of surfing as we age is a progression. Agreed. Yeah. And then I interviewed someone a couple of episodes after I released that and he was listening to that episode and he went, he started listening to the episode thinking, oh, I can get better as a short borderer. So he had this intention of thinking in his late forties, oh, I can become a better short borderer. And I was thinking, well, no, you kind of misread that. So he, he went into it with his own intentions and didn't really even hear what I was saying. So, so I think we, we need to be really realistic. If you're in your late forties, it's, and you started surfing late in life, you're probably not going to become better at doing a top turn on six foot waves. It's just Right, right. It's unlikely. Is it impossible? No, not impossible, especially you look at Kelly Slater, but I think what a people, a lot of people might not realize is Kelly Slater, that's his full-time job. I guarantee you he's getting a massage, probably at least three massages a week. He's spending a lot of money on good nutrition. He's getting his sleep. He's got, he's probably got a nanny that helps him with his kids. So he can, you know, this, his life is focused on maintaining his surfing level. So if you have the resources to, , to really focus on it, yeah, maybe you can, but I think it's mostly about managing expectations and being realistic and I guess to summarize, it's defining or perhaps redefining what getting better at surfing means. I really like that. Coach Chris: yeah. Yeah. No, I, I definitely, I can, uh, really agree with that. Even, I liked how you said just maintaining a certain level of surfing as you age is getting better because all, all the laws of the universe, and we are pointing to you getting worse as you get older. You get stiffer, you're fighting an uphill battle. So if you're able to maintain, you know, it's, um, it's a form of getting better. But also, like you said, I think getting better at surfing can be seen in, or, or the, the basis for what is getting better is multiple things, you know, and just the maturity. I think one of the reasons I've gotten better at surfing is not necessarily how I ride the waves, but because of that concept of the art of missing waves and really making it a tangible thing for myself. Like not this obscure kind of thought floating around in my head that sort of floats up every once in a while and I'm like, oh yeah, remember that? But like, no, this is like a, now it's a written down, like, it's almost like I've journaled it to myself, you know? That to, to be able to miss waves, you know, in a, in a graceful way is a version of me getting better as a surfer and not taking away from my family or from, you know, things I need to do in my life because I just need to go surfing right now. The waves are good and I gotta go, you know, like what kind of person is that, that you have to bail on things because of surfing? That's, in my opinion, that's sort of not a good surfer because like I said, a surfer's just a person, and if a person is bailing on family or these things. Then you're not a great person. I'm not saying you're a bad person. I'm just saying you, you could be better and that would also make you a good surfer. You know what I mean? But you know, the, the, the standard for what you're measuring against. It's, it's important to, to identify that scale. That's how we can get better. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Even letting go of FOMO as you age. That's getting better at surfing. Coach Chris: Yeah. Yes. That's, that's, that was it. Yeah. Thank you for saying it better than I did. It took me like a hundred words and you did it in a couple, but like, yeah. Not having fomo. Don't do that to yourself. Why torture yourself? Because if you really think about it, there's millions of waves breaking every moment all the time. And some of 'em are epic world class. Some of 'em are very far away. Some of 'em are within reach and you're not riding those 'cause you don't know about. So don't torture yourself just because you know the waves were good and you can't go, you know, there's good waves all over the place every moment of the day. You're missing them all. Don't worry about it. It's all good. Yeah. Well, that's another point is like, there's a famous quote from aki, which goes something like, if you are not surfing good waves, you're denying yourself as a surfer, and I believe that you're not surfing. Yeah. Like, you know what it's like, okay. When you, when you, when you go on a tropical surf trip and you surf one of those long period swells on a windless day at a reef break, it's just, you know, you would, you would travel, you know, two days to surf three of those waves and come home. And come home happy. You know, that's how good, you know, a good quality, thick, long period swell on a windless reef is, you know, you'd swap three of those waves for four, four hour sessions at your local average beach break, you know? Sure. Sure. But I think well part, you know, let's keep going down the philoso, uh, like philosophical route and think that it's only because you don't get it all the time. If you had that every single day without question, sort of like the wave pool kind of pickle we're getting ourselves into, if that's always available to you, is it gonna continue to be as sweet? Is it gonna continue to be so wonderful? It's only because it's uncontrolled. It's out of your ability to consistently take and get that we can't abuse. You know? Like why do drug addicts become drug addicts and alcoholics and people? Because it's something that's consistently available if you seek it out. And because the human condition is to. Just, we all have a little bit of an addict in ourselves. We want more and more and more of something that we like. Yeah. And so if we could do that with surfing, we'd spoil it for ourselves. It's great that we cannot score all the time that good because it helps us learn to appreciate it when it happens and when it doesn't. You know, you just putting in your hours and putting in your reps for when it does happen again. Well, I think what, what I was getting at there was it's quality over quantity, I think is something that's Oh yeah. So, you know, you, you maybe, maybe work six weeks in a row in order to save up, to go on a surf trip to get, I got you now. Yeah. I miss that. To get, to get away from the crowd or. Even specifically, like where I surf is kind of like a novelty point break where even on a good day, maybe one in every 20 waves sort of lines up properly and doesn't have refracted swells and wind chops on it and actually breaks across the point properly. So I might, it might, I might sit in the right spot and actually just tease a bunch of people into the ones I don't want. Mm-hmm. And then just waiting for my, my detailed eye to choose that one wave that I know is gonna actually. And that's usually not the biggest wave of the set. It's one of the medium ones that doesn't have a wave in front of it or a wave breaking across it. So I'm teasing everyone into the other ones thinking that I'm hungry, but I'm actually just being patient and selective with, 'cause I'd rather catch two of those in a session and get three good turns in and then jump in my car and go home rather than pump my way and catch waves that don't break properly. So yeah, quality over quantity as you age, I think is, is better too. And it, it also sort of gives you something to, I also find that surfing when it's new, it's like anything, it really encompasses your, your attention. I just recently, uh, got my motorbike license and when I first started riding the motorbike, I was scared initially because now I've gotta look at the road differently and. I was a hundred percent focused. And now as I sort of getting a bit better, I found myself of being a bit too relaxed almost. Mm-hmm. But, but then what I have to do now is think, okay, I just need to look for the details on the road so that Tom Carroll sort of. His tip comes into my mind, and I always, I'm always looking, even when I'm sitting out the back waiting for a set, I'm just really looking at that little sliver of horizon and just trying to predict where's that next set coming? Is it a wide set? Is it a bigger set? Is it a smaller set? So really just I think focusing in on the, on the, on the details with the intention of looking for the best of the best on that day. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like a, a, like a new mount, a new mountain biker who's coming down a track, you, you wanna stay on that meter wide track, right? You wanna stay on the track and you're like, it's so exciting. You're going fast and well, you think you're going fast. And then as you get better and better at mountain biking, you're starting to look where exactly is the center of my tire going? And what's the fastest, right. What's the fastest way through that? Through that, that track. Just like with surfing. Mm-hmm. Right. Initially you see that one swell coming in. Right. And now, now you're looking, oh, there's actually three swells in the water and there's a wind chop and there's refractions. And I'm actually looking for the part of the wave where the water's moving, mo moving most, and where, where exactly am I gonna put my rail? So you, your focus narrows in and becomes more detail orientated. It helps you to surf faster, but it also helps you to choose better quality waves and, and helps you to keep focused through your surf as well. Yeah. Yeah. It takes one of the most important qualities of, of surfer, which is their positioning, and it just keeps tightening up as you, you know, you're get, like you said, the details. Now you're no longer trying to be in this spot, you're trying to be in that spot, you know, this tiny little one between your fingers compared with the big wide, you know, broad range. But, uh, I love the way you talk about, you know, seeing waves and, and it's, it's putting to words some of the things that I think and, but sometimes struggle with articulating, when a wave is just like you said, there's always some nuance, there's always some detail to be looking at when a wave's coming in, even on the most perfect of conditioned days, there's little humps and, you know, things happening in the water that, , cause you to maybe just shift over a lane to catch the wave or, you know, and I just, I, I like the way you describe it. I'd love to surf with you. You, you're not, you're not around here though, huh? You what? What's your local spot by the way? What's that point break? Are you allowed to say I'm in Hawke's Bay? I'll keep the spot quiet, but, yeah. I'm in New Zealand in, in a place called Hawke's Bay at the moment. , But you know, a few years ago I was based in, in Malibu and I was doing a lot of surf guiding and coaching out there. , I miss that place. It's such ama, amazing part of the world. , But yeah, no, I think that the, the more I. The more I think about the details and the more I'm able to focus in on it, the more I get outta surfing. I think it's the same with anything in life, right? You actually make, it makes me remember a story which I don't think I've told on this podcast, so I'll, I'll tell it to you now, is I was out great. I was out at ATU surfing, oh gosh, must have been 2016, right when Jack Robinson had started, , on tour and he had sort of made the WCT and was this sort of tube writing savant. I dunno if you remember when he first came in, did he win the pipe masters or he did? Well, it was with his, he was amazing in the tube. Well, I think he was, he was pretty good. Not to get off of your story, he was pretty good in the beginning, but he hit a year early in his career, but not necessarily the first one, if I remember correctly, where it was like, whoa. He's, or maybe that was before he, maybe he hit that stride before he even joined the WSL. But anyway, sorry. Continue with your story. Yeah. It might've been 2017. Anyway, I'm sitting out the back at ATU waiting for a, a, a wider set. And Jack Robinson's dad paddles up to me, and he's a very talkative chap. , And I'd, I'd met him a few years earlier, , at a local comp down in Manley where I was living at the time, in, in Sydney. And he recognized me and just started talking my ear off. Hmm. And I just said to him, Jack and Jack had just come on the tour and everyone was talking about how good he was in the tube. And I asked him, I said, , why do you think Jack is so good in the barrel as such a young surfer? And he just looked at me and he said, he builds boats inside of bottles. And I was like, oh, what, what? That's an interesting, why did, why say that? And he said, yeah. Because it takes him hours and it's fine. Motor control and a very, very clear, focused intention on the finer details. That's how you build boats inside of bottles, and that's how he rides tubes so well. Huh. Which blew my mind at the time. And I remember a wave came in totally. A wave came in and I took it and I never saw him again. That's hilarious. Wow. What an interesting answer. And, and the way you tell it sounds like he's very sure that that's what it is. Well, I, but I see it and, and I, for me, if I were to describe why that's a contributing factor is just like that. The precision of it. You don't have all the space of a desk to, you know, scatter items and whatever. You know, you are consolidated into this one tiny space. Not only that, but it bottlenecks even further and to, you have to fit your pieces through there. So that's a, that's a really interesting take on why he's such a good tube writer. Yeah, I love it. Leave it to the old timers to have one of those kinds of answers for you, you know? No, no. Straightforward. Like, oh, he, he, you know, he points his hand and he looks at it on his way out. None, none of that stuff. It's the building the boats in the bottle. That's what does it. Yeah. Yeah. I, I always remember that it stuck with me. Yeah. And I think, , you gotta have, , focus, you're detailed, focused for hours on end to do that, you know? Mm. So if you're out, if you're out surfing, . An intense wave in Western Australia where he is from. , , You have to be focused the whole time. You can't just, a lot of, I think a lot of people think that you can just sit there in between sets and wait for a set to come in. That's not what good surfers do. They don't. No, of course not. No. You know, what you, you ever tried to talk to, to a good experienced surfer? Not that they've just, they won't even hear, they're gone. They won't hear you. You think they're being rude. They actually be the friendliest guy you've ever met in the carpark. But when they're surfing, they won't even acknowledge your presence because they are hyper-focused on the horizon. They wanna know when that next set is coming in and they wanna start paddling for it before you've even seen it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I remember surfing with, with Nation Nathan Hedge once and everyone's sitting in the water waiting for a set and Nathan Hedge starts paddling. And everyone's like, why are you paddling? And, and he paddled like an animal. And next thing you know, , 20 seconds later everyone else sees the set and starts paddling. But he's already in the right position and he's already moving. He's already hungry. It doesn't matter if someone was in a better position than him. Nathan Hedges wants it more and is actually in a better position so he gets the wave. 'cause he's so focused on the details. That little sliver of 'cause that's all it is when you think about it, you're looking at such a thin sliver of horizon to see those sets come, come in. No wonder it takes so long to learn. You know, we are looking for such fine little details on the horizon. So that's what I'm always, I think that's what helps keep me present , that's what I'm trying to get better at surfing really is, is reading the ocean and, and the finer details. Not just when I'm surfing a wave, like a mountain biker, going down a track, but also while I'm. Trying to predict where the next set is coming in and where it's gonna break. And , you using your peripheral vision to sort of be aware of where everyone else is, who's paddling so much going on. 'cause I think it's just as much, especially nowadays about reading the ocean, it's about reading the crowd as well. Knowing who can, yeah. Yeah. So you've gotta have a , a minor in psychology as well to, to get wave of, well you said a really good, you said a really good thing. Um, well, two things I wanted to talk. One I'll just say is that I really like that explanation for why surfers can seem a little cold, in the water. , And that's a really good explanation for why. It's because they're focused, you know, their, their mind's elsewhere. They're, this isn't. Chit chat hour. It's not coffee time, it's, it's, I'm out here to, to catch a few waves. And that takes a high focus, especially as you get better and you know what you're looking for. And then the other thing I liked was, the intention, when you show intention, , like Nathan Hedge was so intent on his positioning and getting there for that wave that even if somebody had been in better position, perhaps they just sort of, alright, go ahead. You, you want it more. You know? And I think that's a big, that's a, that's a thing that comes up quite a bit in, um, in my sessions with students because naturally a student, a beginner or even a, you know, a practicing surfer in their early years can easily show hesitation. , They can easily back off or think that someone else is going when really, , that's, that says a lot about. What happens for you in the water? Do you get waves or not Just how intent are you, you can get waves that you wouldn't have otherwise gotten just by continuing for a little longer or showing your intention and, and you, because I, I'm just saying, I've, I always want my students to be respectful and, and respect good, you know, surf etiquette. But the, the gap between when you're , exercising good etiquette, and when you're just being hesitant, it's, it's usually a large one. There's a lot more room to continue and still be polite and, and then find out like, oh, that person's actually not in good position. Everything, something changed. They're pulling back. They don't want the wave or they saw you going and they just wanna let you go. They didn't want that wave that bad in the first place, but no one else was pa Just so many circumstances and situations unfold. As they progress. And if you don't show intention long enough up until the point of the decision, you know, there, it does come a point where it's like, okay, decision time. If I go, am I burning somebody or am I doing something bad? Or did everything change from just moments ago when I thought I shouldn't go? It's a good talking point that often comes up with my students and myself of intention, you know, have, have a little bit more commitment and, and intention and, and 'cause it displays in your body language and it, and it's, it reads as beginners look hesitant. So you can almost fool people with your intention as that you're a little bit better than you are just by, just keep going, just keep going a little longer. Keep setting that wave up, pull back if it really is a, a no-go situation. Yes. Every surfer has approaches it so differently. Not everyone's out there just to catch lots of waves sometimes I think the nice person in us thinks that, and we let. There may be, and then they don't even catch the wave anyway. Like, oh, I could've had that one, but yeah, yeah, yeah. You could, you should have wanted it more, you know, it's not unethical to be hungry to catch waves and Right. There are surfers out there who don't wanna talk to anyone. There's some surfers that go out there to talk to everyone, and there's everything in between. And even, gosh, even my 10-year-old, even my 10-year-old, sometimes I paddle up to him and like, do you want me to help you catch you over? He's like, you know what, dad? I just love sitting out here and just looking at the, and, uh, okay. So, wow, that's a really mature thing for a 10-year-old to say. I know. It blows my mind sometimes. I'm like, you'd think he'd be hungry and wanting to catch waves, but no, he's just, sometimes he's happy just to sit out the back for a bit and enjoy it. I bet. I, I bet it has a lot to do with, did you, uh, did somebody introduce surfing to you and your family, or did you find it on your own and, and kind of found, pursue it yourself? I found it on my own. Right. Basically. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, that's what I thought, sort of felt like, it, it, it works with my philosophy, what I'm just gonna say. We both found surfing the same way. Like it wasn't given to us through our family, our fathers or something, and we got to do it so easily, so early. We, I, I had to fight for it. I really had to fight hard. I had to save money to get my first surfboard. It wasn't easy. Mm. So when I got it, I was hungry, you know, I really wanted it. Whereas I, I, I think your son maybe has a little bit more of a healthy approach because it's a, it's a little bit more abundant for him. He can get it easily, you know, just like you said, he, his dad's always there to come right up to him and offer a help for, to get a wave. So it probably helps him to see, you know, the bigger picture a little better. Yeah. Whereas us, we were so desperate just to get on waves and, and keep progressing and in the way that we thought progression meant, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm also aware, I'm aware of the time. Did you have to go at on the hour or have I got you for a bit longer? No, no, no. Yeah, you got me. I let it rip. Michael Frampton: So what's the best piece of surfing advice that you've ever received? Coach Chris: Personally, I don't know if it's the best, but it just came to mind. And it is, just because they can't surf good doesn't mean they can't fight. One of my, uh, role model surfer guides, you know, uh, like informal. I went through a period of my life where I was, didn't really have a lot of friends to go surfing with. But this older guy, well, I guess he's probably how old I am now, uh, in his later thirties, he would take me surfing all the time. He was a really. Important figure in my life, like a father. I have a great father, still do. , But I was also a teenager so my dad wasn't as cool to me then, you know, and this guy was kind of like my temporary father that I actually respected and listened to and he surfed and it was just this really in important good person in my life. And he taught me so many things, but paddled back out one time, all fired up, you know, 'cause somebody dropped in on me and the guy was, he dropped in and went straight. He didn't know what he was doing. It was clear as day. And I'm all hot and heavy and I'm like, oh man, that guy Jack, blah blah, blah. And I'm talking up, you know, Mr. Big shot over here probably was just starting to get somewhere with my surfing. Like, you know, I could actually do a little something, go down the line. I could, you know, do what I wanted. Yeah. To some extent. And so I'm getting all proud and cocky and he goes. Man, just 'cause he can't surf doesn't mean you can't fight. You be careful and don't get yourself beat up, you know? And it actually landed. I was like, damn, that's true. You know, like, who knows who this guy is? Like, what if I go, you know, acting all Mr. Big shot? And I just get completely humbled. , I, I mean it might not be the best, but it's up there. It's good advice. And I, and I have a follow up story for that. My, a good friend of mine was teaching a, a, a surf lesson, you know, and in the tourist thing, you know, and, and he's, he's out there with this student. It's, it's coming up on the end time. So he is getting a little anxious to get them in on a wave. And one of the local hot shots is just getting wave after wave, lapping 'em, you know? And you know, mostly. That's just how it goes. Good surfers get good waves and more waves. But I think he got to the point where he is like, dude, next wave we gotta go in. We're taking it. Just so you know. And he tells the young guy, and young guy goes, my friend, the instructor launches his student into the wave and the young guy goes, he's like, he gets upset about it. And he goes and tells his father, you know, he is like. Old enough to be mad and wanna start something not old enough to, you know, do it on his own. He goes and tells his dad, who's also a, you know, a little bit of a hothead. Mm. Comes up to my friend and he gets in his face and he is yelling and doing all these things, surf lessons, this and you, and blah, blah, blah. And my friend's like, dude, what, what are you doing? Like, relax. Like, I, I was, I was working for you when your son was born. Remember when I covered your shift and you went and your son was like, like, dude, calm down. Okay. All right. So anyway, whole situation, tempers down, walks away, nothing happens. And the student goes, Hey man, I'm really proud of you. The way you handled that. That was really, you were really mature and calm. I just want you to know though, if it got bad, I'm a black belt in Jiujitsu, I would've, it would've been no problem for me to handle this. And it just, he, he texted me right away. I wasn't there for this, but he texted me and he goes, dude. Just 'cause you can't surf, doesn't mean you can't fight. And I've told that story before. So he thought of me right away and I loved it. I was so, I was so proud of him for the way he handled himself. And I was just so, like, it was such a, Hollywood moment, you know, to have it actually happen where this guy is quietly standing behind you. You think he's some kook who can't surf and really, he's like a great fighter who would know how to handle himself. No problem. I like that. Gosh, I, I'll extend it too. Just 'cause they can't surf doesn't mean they're not mentally ill. I had one guy who was Oh yeah. A very eccentric, , extroverted, , surfer and he was terrible at surfing. So we're just kind of. Surf around him a little bit and be a bit, sort of maybe rude to him. 'cause he would always try and surf places that were out of his leg. Mm. And he'd get angry. He'd never do anything about it. He almost, it sort of seemed like a weird dude. And he, I must have pissed him off 'cause he really didn't like me. And then he loosened the wheel nuts on my car one day. Holy cow. Yeah. That's diabolical. Yeah. So be Whoa. You never know what someone's capable of. Geez. That's insane. I know. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well there you have it. You know, be a good person and you're a good surfer. Yeah. What is some of the biggest mistakes or the biggest mistake that you see that sort of, that beginner early intermediate make some of your, some of your students? Is there some common threads? Sure. Yeah. Um, There's a list of them, you know, but I can't help myself, but say, especially when it comes to adults, not bookie boarding, first, not learning how to play in the ocean. First. People come and they wanna learn how to surf and they wanna be serious about it right away. And I respect that. I take, I take the learning process seriously, but there is a lot to learn in play. It's how children learn the whole world through play. And when it comes to the beach and surfing, boogie boarding is the version of play that we've many, most of us have done to learn how to surf. So there's a lot of basic principles there that are, are totally, they become brand new when you're doing it on a surfboard. But a surfboard is bigger, it's harder, it's, it's more difficult to manage. It's, it can be more dangerous. You get less reps. So it, it, it, it just really sets you up for a difficult journey when you don't have a little foundation of, you know, jumping on a boogie over and over again, you know, a hundred times in an hour trying to set your rail, pull into a little closeout slide up on the beach, how to roll with the wave when you wipe all those things. That's, that's one of the big ones for me. And then there's the obvious, you know, positions on the, the board people using. Their body position on the board to try and prevent a nose dive, which so often leads to nose diving because now your board's not moving efficiently. You're not able to tilt over the ledge of the wave when you should. You get delayed and caught up in the lip. And when you finally do catch the wave, the things, you know, vertical and ready to go, you should have been in it moments ago. There's those counterintuitive solutions, um, that people use or the, the solution is counterintuitive. The, the obvious, you know, solution to the, the beginner is like, oh, move back on my board so I don't nose dive. If I'm way back on my board, I won't nose dive. And no, actually move up or be in the right position, catch the wave properly on time and have a much more, you know, user-friendly. But that's like obvious stuff. I prefer more like the big picture. Get on a Boogie, go ride a Boogie board. Like have it in your quiver. At the very least when you get your first surfboard, also get a boogie board. 'cause the, it just opens up your world of opportunities and when you can go surf, you know, when you can go have a fun and get a couple reps in. Totally. Yeah. Like, did you watch that, , episode of the Tim Ferris show where he decided surfing was something he wanted to get good at as quick as possible. And he hired Lead Hamilton as a coach. And the fir, that's the first thing lead Hamilton did. I said, right, we're just gonna go, just gonna go and play in the whitewater, no surfboard or anything. I, yeah, I didn't see that, but I love it. I'm so happy to hear that. Because I feel like I'm like, it's like a novel a thing. I'm saying like, people look at me like, no, no, I wanna learn how to surf. And it's like, yeah, I know this is how. Yep., you wanna learn how to spell, read and write, but you don't wanna learn the alphabet. It's like, you, you can't, yes. You. When one of the, you know, one of the best and most famous surfers in the world didn't start till he was 17, which, who's that? When I interviewed him, it blew my mind and it didn't even make any sense to me. Robert Wingnut Weaver really didn't start surfing until Wingnut didn't start surfing until 17. That's right. And, and after I dug a little bit deeper, it turns out he'd been body surfing since he was five. That's why. Okay. I got a great story. My favorite session of the summer last year, I had this woman, brand new, comes through my system, you know, like a normal first timer. Not someone that knows me and skips that all and texts me or something like that. Books blah, blah, blah, does the whole thing. I meet her on the beach. It goes, it's everything is like you'd expect for the first. Day of a first student, you know, so I do the usual. We go off into the flat water. We have like a nice deep area right adja

What would you do if one wild surf story could change how you travel, train, and survive in the ocean? Michael talks with author James Russell about the real spark behind his podcast; Mad Surf Stories - those unforgettable car park conversations where local surfers share the kind of stories that never make the mainstream. From near-death experiences and ocean rescues to fear, aging, flow state, and the lessons hidden inside heavy surf moments, this conversation speaks to anyone who loves the ocean and wants to surf smarter, safer, and longer. You’ll hear how storytelling preserves local surf lore, why surfers should take safety gear more seriously, and what happens when experience, fear, and age all collide in the lineup. James also shares insights from his own surfing life, his writing, and the deeper emotional threads that run through survival stories at sea. Discover why real surf stories are often the best source of practical wisdom and hard-earned safety lessons You’ll learn how fear, preparation, and mindset shape performance in the water, especially as surfers get older. You’ll get a deeper appreciation for the psychology, risk, and addictive beauty of surfing and surf culture. Press play to hear the stories, lessons, and mindset shifts that could help you surf with more awareness, confidence, and respect for the ocean. James' Podcast "Mad Surf Stories" - https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/mad-surf-stories-podcast/id1861306952 https://open.spotify.com/show/4tHYvt9btBdGgB5rwKv0jv?si=e69d777c95bf46cb https://youtube.com/@madsurfstories?si=BH8FCHs6D_4RADAp James' website: https://dragonbrothersbooks.com Transcript: What inspired you to start the podcast? Yeah, , I guess it's those car park conversations with surfers, , where you talk to somebody and they just tell you something crazy that's happened to someone. And I thought. That's pretty cool. Like, to, to mine those stories would be awesome to be able to do that. , Yeah, I think that's kind of it really. 'cause they're, they're all local, you know, there's those legendary stories that might be, a Piha story or whatever, and everyone Piha knows it, but nobody else does. Hmm. And , when you get a bit long in the tooth, like me, you, you come across quite a few of them. Yeah. But yeah, the, the challenges to, , to get people to talk really. 'cause some of the surfers are like, , maybe they've had a shocker and they're a bit ashamed of it. Mm. So that's, that's the challenge really. But, , actually it's been really interesting 'cause a lot of the, , a lot of the kind of stories, there's been some quite good lessons come out of them, I think for, for listeners or for me or for whoever. Oh, definitely. . Good examples like Elliot Foot. And he, , suggested that if you're going to Indo and you're gonna be taking these ferries between islands, you get yourself an E and you buy that ether in your own country rather than in Indonesia. 'cause then when it pings, it goes back to your own country and you know, those people are gonna. Be on top of it and they're gonna call the into authorities. And I thought, you know, that's gold. That sort of info is, is gold, you know? Yeah, definitely. That he was swimming for two days, you know? Yeah. And, and it would've been. I've already got one of those. 'cause I do a bit of, bit of hunting, so I always have one in, in the backpack. You, you are almost, you're almost silly not to have one nowadays with given what we know. And you just gotta realize that, I mean, any sort of tourism operator in most countries, you know, there's regulations and you know that the captain of the boat will have one of those on them, and there's regular maintenance schedules of their equipment, blah, blah. None of that happens in Indonesia. So you, you kind of gotta have one of those with you just in case. Yeah, but keep in mind, Michael, you've, you are coming from the point, you know, you go, you're a hunter, so you go hunting and you bring this with you. I hadn't even considered that. Like, I think I've, I think they only came on my radar about two years ago when I was in an outdoor shop and I saw one. I was like, what's that? So I, I didn't even know what they were really, because I've never, you know, I've never done that much stuff. I've done, you know, I've done some stuff in the mountains, but I've been with other guys that, you know, they've probably got one in their pack, but they don't even think to mention it to me. So. Yeah, a lot of people wouldn't even think about it. And plus they're quite expensive. Right. How much do you pay for one? , Five, 600, something like that. Yeah, I think, I think I was 400 and it's just a basic e perb, like a signal. But , you can get, Garmin have devices that are similar but a little bit bigger that actually double as satellite phones, so. Right. You, even if you're out outside of normal signal and your iPhone's not gonna work, you've still got GPS signal. So you can immediately tell where you are and you can send a signal out, you can text message, I think you can even call on some of the more modern ones, and they're only a couple hundred bucks more and they have, you know, multiple uses. Now it's just be good to have one just in your house, you know? Yeah. No, it's good. I, um, I haven't had a, a big. A little while, but I think I might make the investment before I do, you know? Yeah, it's funny. Surfers are funny, aren't they? You spend 1200 bucks on a new board, but yeah, I'm not gonna spend 800 bucks on a safety device that'll last, last me a lifetime in case something happens. Well, come on. Yeah. Yeah. And by our nature, you know, we do, we go to these places and I mean, I guess no one's gonna surf with one, but, I wonder, you know, maybe, maybe one day that's, that could be a, that could be a good product to have when you're surfing. You know, something that if they get smaller and smaller, something that you could tuck into your wetsuit or something. Yeah, , there's a guy here in Auckland that I've been trying to get a hold of, he was out surfing at Kar Beach and it was big and he got swept down the coast and he ended up just getting battered into the rocks like terribly, like the bones were sticking out of the wounds. Oh. And he's so far hasn't agreed to talk to me, but hopefully he will. 'cause it's an amazing story. He ended up getting stranded on the rocks, , and the tide was coming in and he thought, okay, I'm just gonna have to jump back off and get back into this. And did that. He ended up getting washed down to another beach and was so broken up he couldn't even stand. He just had to scratch out a giant help in the sand, which was seen by some people walking along the clifftop. Oh wow. And that's how he got rescued, you know. Oh, wow. Gnarly man. Incredible. Yeah, yeah. There's some crazy stories out there and no, it's pretty awesome that you're, you're doing this I've listened to every episode , and I think it's, I think it's awesome. Yeah. Great, nice to hear. Yeah. So let's start from the beginning, right? When did you start surfing? I was a late starter I think. Like, you too, right? I started after I left school, I was down at Otago University. , And for your listeners that, dunno where that is, that's, , the bottom of New Zealand. So it's cold and plenty of swell from the Southern Ocean. . I was a pretty capable swimmer, pretty decent in the water, but yeah, never surfed, kind of never been on my radar and just fell in with a group of lads that were surfers. And, , grabbed a, got a border and a wedding and never looked back. Just loved it. Yeah. Ah, cold water. I spent a lot of time like it, , I spent so many years just cartwheeling down the face of huge waves , and just freezing cold, you know, holes in my wetsuit kind of stuff. Snowing on the beach sometimes. So I don't think I learned very quickly like it was a challenging situation to learn down there. 'cause there's. You know, it's often big, but, yeah, a lot of fun. Yeah, it's an amazing, amazing spot. Great waves. Oh yeah, describe to me your current relationship with the ocean and surfing. Well, I'm a writer, an author, so I've primarily of children's books. But, these two here are my, , I've got two, , novels for adults as opposed to adult novels, but those are both surf. Novels and they were my, , lockdown project really during COVID. , And because I'm an author, I can drop everything and go surfing whenever I like. I, I'm full-time. So, , I tend to do that. And then I'll, you know, I might work late at night or on the weekend or whatever, but if the surf's good, I can go. So, living in Auckland means you got access within an hour to both coasts. . Which is cool. We haven't had much on the east coast lately, but , west Coast is pretty consistent, and weirdly you'd think that Auckland would be quite crowded, but there's so many options, you know, so it's actually not that bad. You can usually find a wave on your own or just with a couple others. So yeah, it's good. It's a good place to live. It's not incredible surf, but yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah. I lived in Auckland for a couple of years and got heaps of good relatively uncrowded waves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got a few secret spots. , I've got one on the east coast that you can only get to by boat, so when there's swell I'll go there. Yep. , And I've never, never surfed it with anybody else, so I, that's my, , I find the older I get the, the less I, uh, or the more I avoid crowds. So I don't tend to go to Raglin or any of those places very much. , Just look for the spots that I know will be good and I don't mind if they take me a little bit of extra time to get there, a bit of a hike or boat ride or whatever. Yeah. So, uh, it's worth it, , and plus I've got the time and the means, you know, so it's good. Yeah. Adventure surfing. Yeah, yeah, I should get the right. I went surfing and uh, I went surfing at the spot on the west coast. , And I was out, I was on my own. It was cooking, it was really good. And, um, just small, but really punchy. And, and then I looked, I looked back on the beach and the beach was kind of a long way away. It was a long sort of. Long flat beach and then suddenly drops off. I saw this log where I thought was a log and there was heaps of seagulls on top of it, and I thought, oh yeah, that's interesting. And then all these people came around, the headland are wearing hazmat suits and carrying these big, you know, machetes and all kinds of stuff. And , it turns out the log was a enormous sperm whale. That had washed up on the beach. Mm. And one of my mates is a, shark specialist and a under underwater cameraman. And he gave me, he told me, he said, don't surf there. Don't surf there for the next month or more. Because when the whales die on the beach, all of the kind of juices flow down into the sand and leach out into the sea. And the sharks just love it, you know? Oh yeah. And I've seen sharks a couple of times at this place before. , But it was, again, a bit of a learning for me. You know, I had no idea that that was the case. That yeah, I mean, it, it makes sense really. But I didn't, I thought if they washed right, it was right up past the, , on the high tide mark. I thought if it was up there all good, you know, I never really thought of the breakdown of the animal and how it goes out to see, you know? Yeah. That's another, another. Good. I didn't know that either actually. Yeah. Yeah. Avoid it. Avoid it until it's long rotted and gone, you know? Yeah. What were they doing in Hazmats when? Oh, that was the iwi, you know, that was the, um, iwi. They were up from re and they were coming down and they were, , taking the jawbone of the whale out for carving. Um, but all the big chunks of blubber just get buried on the beach, so that all just breaks down and seeps out into the water. Oh, gnarly. So do you have any personal mad surf stories? Uh, nothing crazy, . Just the normal getting whipped out in a rip and freaking myself out for 20 minutes until I figure out a way to get back in. Just stuff like that, you know? Yeah. A few, uh, a few rescues have overturned kayaks and bits and pieces. Oh yeah. But I reckon most, I reckon most surfers have saved a few people, you know? Mm. Yeah. I think we're a, I think we're a, , and in fact, I dunno if you listened to my episode with, um, will Allen, he's the, he was a doctor, he was a trainee doctor at the time in Dunedin. And a surfer. And he did this incredible rescue, , off Tyre mouth where they were just about to get in the water and they saw there was an upturn boat and they went out to it. , Rescued a mom, a dad, and there was a, a young 12-year-old girl who was, whose life check the boat was completely upside down their life check. It was caught on something in the boat and he had to free her up. Then mouth to mouth with her on the way and CPR on the way back to shore. And unfortunately, one of the, , there was a baby still caught in the boat, , who died. But um, yeah, so he's gone on to do a lot of work, , around drowning. , And a lot of training of surfers because he realizes that, , surfers are often the ones that come across these people first or may drag them out of the water first. So, yeah, that, that was an interesting one. . And I think, you know, it's like, I mean, I guess most people do a, a first aid course probably, , from time to time, you know, but as a surfer, having that staff and having that knowledge is. You know, good chance you'll get to use it at some point. Yeah, I did all that stuff. I, as a qualified surf coach in Australia, went through all that stuff and, and then of course the breath hold training stuff for bigger waves. A lot of that sort of incorporated in it too, so I've never had to use it, I don't think, per se. I can't think of an instance where I have had,, but invaluable, , information to, to have for sure. 'cause otherwise you just feel helpless. Right. And that's even worse. Yeah. Potentially. But yeah, that was, that was for sure. Yeah. That was an hourly story. Yeah. I listened to that one on the weekend actually. I've listened to all of them. Yeah. There's been some pretty heavy, , kind of psychological implications from a lot of these guys that I've spoken to. Daniel Pool, who was caught in the Indian Ocean, the tsunami, the Boxing Day Tsunami. . When he had to, , when he had to wa he was kind of looking after his group of people and he walked past, he had to walk past a bust that had been overturned possibly with people in it, you know, and he still thinks about it to this day, whether. He should have peeled off and tried to help those people rather than looking after his own group. You know? 'cause he kind of, he was kind of leading them really, and looking after them. Yeah. But yeah, a lot of, a lot of hard stuff to deal with, you know, and that And Will Ellen having to deal with the loss of that baby? , Yeah, it's heavy. Some of the stories have been so heavy, like they've gone a whole lot deeper than I ever kind of thought, you know? Yeah, I need to, I need to uh, get a few more people, , that just have tales of awesome exploration. , I don't know, maybe taking a yacht through window or something like that, or traveling the African coast or whatever. 'cause most of them have been pretty heavy, , disasters. Really? Yeah. They have been. Yeah. But they're good. Like what, what's the South African guy who was like. His was the most gnarly, right. I reckon in, yeah. Turns survival. Yeah. Brett Archibald. Yeah. Yeah. His survival story. Wow. Like and he is such a good storytelling. Yeah. Elliot and his mates. Yeah. Elliot and his mates had surfboards and they did two days and he did, he didn't have one. Right. So he just fell overboard when he was. He was throwing up on deck from a bad Cals only. Yeah. And then he blacked out and fell overboard. It's terrible. Oh yeah. Goodness. Oh, , his uniqueness of character is probably what saves him ultimately, right? Yeah. Yeah. He would just, he would give up and then he'd go, no, I'm not giving up. And he'd, you'd swim to the surface again, you know? Yeah. It's incredible. Even the doctor said, like, what? He purposely swam into some jellyfish 'cause he wanted to give up and that's, you know, that allergic reaction gave him an adrenaline rush, which then made him fight again. Yeah. You know, sends you on things like that. Like, like what, what a story. I came across his story on a, on another podcast and. I was blown away by it, but it was kind, it was called, um, and it's a good one to listen to. It's called Real survival stories. Dunno if you've come across it, but, you know, guys getting caught in the mountains or, you know, their hang gliding and their glider gets blown up into a cloud or all this mad stuff. It's really good. But, , but the, the host of that podcast, um, this guy John Hopkins, he pretty much tells the story and then just drops in little, , little bits of recordings from the person that happened to. But I really liked Brett telling that story in his own words, you know? . It was, he's quite, quite a character, you know, and he's a good sense of humor, but he is just to hear, you know, that, that, that's the thing, like those stories in the carpark, when you hear it from the horse's mouth, it's just like, whoa. It just blows you away. Oh yeah. There's another guy, there's another guy I wanna get hold of that, , that I don't even know his name. I can't even, I, I haven't been able to track him down like this. Never made, I don't think it ever made the news or anything, but. There's a place called Lake Ferry up in, , near Palace Bay. Bottom of the North Island. Yep. And it's, I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's just the steepest, gnarliest beach. And when the waves like, you know, the, you sort of need the, , the water to empty out of this lake to create a little bar for the waves to break on. And then. That'll get blocked up again and the waves will wash this bar away and then it's just pounding on the beach. But the problem with it is like, the waves can be amazing, but the problem is when you go to go in, because the, the beach is so steep, the waves just rear up right on the beach, slam into these stones and then suck back out. So you gotta time it perfectly to get up the beach. And I had a friend that went out on like a three foot day, three, four foot day, and he said it took him 20 minutes to get in. And there was a guy that, , went out, it was like eight foot and he just couldn't get in. And it took, he was out there for hours, people, and he, his board broke and then people chucked him another one and it was just mayhem and he couldn't get in. I think, I think they send a chop to get him out of the water in the end, like he couldn't get in. Yep. Wow. Crazy stuff. Yeah. So if you hear of him, Dylan might wanna talk to him. Yeah. Well may maybe he's listening in and he'll reach out. Yeah. Yeah. We surf, there's a similar, not as, the beach isn't as steep here along Marine Parade, but it is very steep shingle and we have river mouths. Yeah. That when the river floods, it pushes a, a u-shaped, , barreling wave or bar out there for the whale waves to barrel on. And the waves get Really? Yeah. I've surfed, I've surfed. I know the one you're talking about. I've surfed. , That one. , There's a good story there too. Um, a young fellow who got whipped out in the, uh, in the river, and they picked him up 17 kilometers out to sea. Oh, wow. He's yet to talk to me too. Yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, wow. You haven't heard that one? I thought that was legendary in your area. Oh, it doesn't, it doesn't ring a bell, but I'm not surprised. Yeah, well it was crack of dawn, you see, and he was on his own and it had been pouring with rain and the river was honking. You know, you gotta swim across the river or paddle across the river to get to the, to this break you're talking about. Yeah. And he just didn't make the other side. He just oof gone. Yep. And next thing. And it was just howling offshore and he, he was almost blind when they picked him up. There's some footage of a, of the helicopter coming to get him. So someone was filming on the as they came in to pick him up. Yeah. And he was 17 Ks off offshore. Oh, wow. And he tried to paddle to Cape Kidnappers and tried all kinds of stuff and just, just got nowhere. Oh, gnarly. Oh yeah. There's a lot of water coming out of those rivers when they flood, man. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I learned a pretty hard lesson there. You, you need the water for the bar, don't you? Exactly. Yeah, . Oh yeah. When I was younger, I remember pulling up to a river mouth and it was flooded and there was a nice swell running, and the waves looked like they were pumping, like just top to bottom barrel, like pitch black inside the barrel. It's how you know, like the kind of pitches you draw at school. Yeah, and there was no one surfing. And I was like, okay, I am out there. And I'd probably only been surfing for maybe three, four, maybe five years. And this was back when I was young. And i'd broken my leash, so the only leash, leg rope I had. Was was a longboard leash that had been stretched out, must have been 11 foot long, but it was the only le leg rope that I had. And I was like, I'm out there paddled across. And I just remember paddling into my first attempt, or the only attempt, the first wave. And because the, the rivers. Pushing out and it creates the bar for the wave to break on, break on, but it actually creates a lot of draw. So it kind of breaks like an extreme, extreme rip bowl, which makes the wave better and more rippable and when it's manageable, but it also makes it a lot harder to paddle into. Yeah. And I was so excited 'cause the waves looked pumping and I was inexperienced and I tried to paddle into this wave and immediately just went over the handlebars, slammed down into the gravel, and then I'm, now I'm in a flooded river. Getting sucked underneath and then the surfboard wraps around me like this and around my arms. 'cause I'd, I went to go and, you know, put my hands over my head, but I didn't have time. 'cause by the time my arms got to here, the surf, the leash, the leg ropes wrapped around my arms couldn't move. Starting, it's pulling tight and then the surfboard's like doing this 'cause it's wrapped around me. It's here. I've still got a scar on my nose from it, so I'm getting, I'm wrapped up in my own leg rope of , couldn't move. My arms being dragged along the gravel bottom on a flooded river. Seconds after I thought I was gonna get the best barrel of my life. And yeah, I thought it was gone. I thought that was it. I couldn't move. That's cool. I'm getting dragged under. I don't know how long I was under for, um, it was probably only 30 seconds, but it felt like minutes and I guess eventually I just got to a point where the river started to dissipate into the ocean. , And the tension on the leg rope started to ease and I was able to wriggle free and swim up. I came up and everything was, like I had red glasses on and I didn't, you know, I didn't breathe in any water or anything. I was, I ended up being fine, but it was, yeah, you're on the edge. It was an intense experience. It was a hard lesson to learn. Yeah, I reckon that's freakish. That is freakish. Yeah. Actually, I listened to one of your episodes, there just the other day. , And it was, can you still get better when you're, you know, when you're getting old? Because I'm 50, what am I 52 now? And I reckon I've kind of been getting better because I started late. I don't think I got to that really good level. It took me a long time. So I, I don't know, maybe it's a good thing to start late 'cause it is quite enjoyable thinking that you're still getting better even when you're like. Nearly 50, but I reckon that's changed and started to go downhill a bit for sure in the last three years. But your episode was quite inspiring, but my boy, I've got two boys, one's 18, one's 16, and, uh, they like a bit of juice now, you know? And the last time I went out with the two of them, it was big, you know, it was gruy and I got absolutely owned. I got a, got a huge one. Wiped out on a big one and then got two or three really beautiful ones right on the head, like they're kind of progressively smaller, these waves as I was coming in, which meant they just landed right on me and shit. I was like, oh my, am I gonna die here? Like I was actually really, really worried and I cut. I just groveled and had to sit on the beach for a little while to collect myself, but it was quite a lesson. I was like, oh, could you know, 10 years ago that would've been all right? It would've been fine. It would've been rattled, but. I was like, oh, that was close. You know, I was seeing stars here. Yeah. So that's, yeah. Getting old sucks. What are you gonna do? Yeah, it does, it does. But I mean, I, if you're gonna surf waves of consequence, you you have to train for it, don't we? I don't think at any age. I don't think it's escapable at any age. Obviously when you're young, you're, you know, a bit more rubbery and, and fit naturally. But, uh, yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you found that episode inspiring. Yeah, tell me though, your breath hold. Can you increase your breath hold when you're my age? Of course. Yeah. Yeah, think so? Oh, definitely a hundred percent. I used to be able to do like two minutes underwater or even a little more, you know, 60 meters in a pool or something. But now that's, yeah, I don't know. I can't do anything like that. You triple. Quadruple your breath. Hold within one training session if you're, if you want to. I've done that with Nam Baldwin. A lot of it's just mindset and having the ability to Yeah. Right. To control your nervous system. 'cause what uses up, what uses up all the oxygen is you freaking out. Yeah. Really. So if you, which is what I was doing. Yeah. Yeah. So going through a course. Like I, I went through back in the day with, with Nam where, you know, you sit down for a couple hours and you go through the science and then you jump in the pool and you go through the practicalities and you put it into practice. Just changes the game really. So the answer is yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, definitely. But, you know, go need to come over and have a session with you. Like I, I, I get quite, I'm quite fascinated with that fear side of things, i've done loads of sports, but I've never, I think surfing is the one that's given me the greatest level of fear. 'cause I mean, you know, I've done, I've, I've skied to a pretty high level and we were jumping off some pretty high stuff, but you sit at the top and you can, you can check all the factors and then you can psych yourself up and then you can go, you know? , But with, and I've done some whitewater kayaking, which was kind of scary, like when you go over waterfalls and things, but. Surfing's a bit more outta control, right? 'cause you can't, you don't know what's gonna happen when you paddle over that wave and see what's coming at you. There's no control there. Even with a river and you're kayaking, you can sit up above a rapid for a while and get yourself sorted, pick your line, all of that stuff. But, and, and you know that, that water is, even though you know, surfing is kind of a unique sport, and that two things are moving you and the medium that you are, you know, that you are working in and kayaking. It's moving as well, but it's moving in a uniform way. It doesn't, doesn't change, but waves, they're moving along and the, the bathymetry of the bottom changes, suddenly the just, , the bottom will drop out or whatever will happen. . But that, that fear is, um, I've always found it fascinating. You know, I've never been a big wave rider, really. You know, I'm pretty uncomfortable once it gets up, past six foot, to be honest, like I'm like. I'm, I'm happy there, but anything bigger than that, I'm like, okay, leave this to the big boys and that, and I just can't believe, I, I just can't fathom how guys can go out and 15, 20 foot, you know? I just, I don't even, it doesn't even compute for me. Oh, yeah. Like, I'm, I'm okay with it. I don't really want to do that, but I just can't believe how brave some people are. You know? But I guess that's, it's doing all those things right? Putting the training in place and doing the psychological stuff and getting the breath hold and the whole thing. It doesn't just happen. You gotta build up to it. Yeah, there's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes. I've only really done it once where I surfed an outer reef that was, you know, triple overhead. And when you surf the outer reefs, the swell itself is just moving so much faster. So it, it's, it's almost like a different sport. And I trained for, I was in the gym, you know, three times a week for a year doing breath holding courses and training and. To leading up towards that winter to surf one of these swells. And I mean, I, I don't think I'd ever do it again. I don't regret nothing happened, nothing bad happened. , I got some of the best waves of my life and surfed the, some of the biggest waves of my life. But the come down the next day, like, yeah. The body obviously really sore 'cause you're getting thrown around. But just the depression man from you, you, you end up going so high surfing these waves. 'cause it's like surfing but everything's intensified. And the depression the next day is something that I don't, in hindsight, I don't know if it was worth it when you weigh up the risk that you, you know, the work that took to get there, the risk that you're, you're taking to do it. The come down afterwards and the desire to do it again. 'cause that adrenaline rush is next level. Like those guys that do big wave surfing like that on a regular basis, they're, they're, they are different animals, man. They're different machines. Yeah. Sounds like a drug addiction, doesn't it? It's certainly, well a lot of them end up, you know, doing that as well. Yeah, true. A lot of stories in surfing of, of that as well. But I mean, yes, you can get better as as you get older, but I think it, it matters on how do you define better? Do you know? Do you know what I mean? Like, is it surfing a different Yeah. What, what is the style of surf? Because I think for years, myself included, I was a victim, maybe that's not the right word, but also. The surf industry was telling me what board to ride, what style of surfing to do, do you know what I mean? I you constantly fear of being judged, so when you go no stuff, all that. I just want to, I just, I'm happy get taking a bigger board and going and surfing over there where no one else is surfing and catching the novelty waves, but getting 20 of them in 20 minutes. Because no one else is there, rather than going over there and trying to get three to the beach off the crowd. So that's part of it too. , And you mentioned, yeah, I mean, PE people say buy a longboard, but I, I find longboarding boring as shit. I want to still ride my shortboard, still want to try and get barreled if I can. , That's where, that's the super exciting stuff, but it's just annoying when you're like. On a good wave and you're like, oh, I might hit the lip here, and you'll just blow it and you just know because you haven't, you're not fit enough or you haven't done enough surfing or you, you're just getting old and your reactions are slow. , My kids skateboarded and uh, when I was about 40, I reckon, or. Maybe, yeah, about 40. I was like, oh, I used to be able to do a bit of this. Go on the skateboard. Like the reactions when you fall, you just don't have those same, like they just sort of step off. But I would get flat onto the pavement, you know, that's, I was just, my reactions are way too slow. . And there's nothing much you can do about that. I think, you know, that's just, just a factor of getting old. You probably get a little bit wiser as a surfer in terms of. Reading what a Wave's gonna do and setting up a little earlier, you know, in fact, I'm sure when you see Kelly Slater trying to do hes and stuff, he doesn't pull many of them off anymore. . You know, but he, but put 'em in 10 foot pipe. He's like the man, you know, he can just slot it just beautifully. But when he is trying to do these tricky little maneuvers on small waves, he's just not quick enough. He doesn't have that reaction time like he used to. . Yeah. But he's a good example of someone who hasn't let go of, you know, he still wa he, I guess in, there's probably a small part of Kelly Slater's that still wants to be able to beat Philippe, Felipe Toledo and be as fast and as quick as him. Yeah. And I'm sure that just though, really, like there's no way. Yeah. And it, whereas you look at someone like Skip Fry, who's just happy to, to Highline on a glider. Style in his, in his eighties, you know? Yeah. And he's, and Joel t will say he's the best surfer in the world. So it's, it kind of of does depend on your perspective and what you think better is, and it's, you do have to have quick reactions in some ways, but also I think as you get older, as a surfer, you get better at predicting the waves. So there isn't a need for quick reactions because you're just better at predicting the wave anyway. Yeah. I guess it depends on what feels the best to you on a wave. Like what feels the best to me is if I go up and hit the lip and do a turn, I'll go shit that felt good. You know? That's what I like doing. And it's, it's the, it's the stuff of a younger man really to do it really well. I mean, of course we can do it, but those, the guys that are doing it the best are the young men, you know? So I'm never gonna be able to hit the lip like I could when I was 40 or 45 maybe. 'cause I think I still was getting better at that point. But. You know, it's only downhill from here. I think, like I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I think the more, if I want to maintain that, you've gotta train much harder, I reckon, as you get older. Oh yeah. In order to maintain the same level, you know, and that's, that's time and effort. And , someone will go, do you want a beer? Come around for a beer or whatever. I'll be like, okay, you know? Here's some canon beer on a cracker, and I'll have a couple of those. Next thing you know, I get on the scales in a week and I'm like, oh geez, I put on a couple of kilos. Yeah, over Christmas, whatever. You just get a bit relaxed, I think, and you don't burn off the, you don't burn it all off like you used to, and it, it requires more effort, you know, requires more discipline, more effort, more time, probably, I think, than when you're a young man. That's the way it goes though. I'm alright with it. I'm at peace. I know I don't sound like I am, but I am. I still enjoy it. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's the main thing, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But you mentioned fear and that that does come a lot into it, especially, I think a lot of surfers don't even realize how scared they are because a lot of the, I think a lot of the fears that we have of surfing is, is sort of unconscious because your brain. Whether you, you realize it or not, your brain knows how dangerous the ocean is. , You might not realize that you're essentially a victim of a shark attack or a tsunami to, to think of the extremes. But then of course, everyone knows there's a rogue set every hour. And there's, you maybe didn't read that rip properly or someone ditches their board in front of you or, I mean, the, the list of ways that things can go wrong when you're surfing is, is endless. And whether you are consciously aware of that doesn't matter. 'cause your brain is, and if you haven't prepared or consciously thought through those risks, then that's essentially taking away from you entering a flow state. And when we enter a flow state. That's when your reaction times, uh, switched on and where you're not necessarily Yeah. Thinking. So it is to do with that, and I think everyone feels that. Yeah. And you feel that sometimes when you surf. Right? Sometimes I, , it'll be big and I'll go to paddle in and then I'll pull back and I'll be like, oh, what I pull back for, you know, you know, I know that I'm scared. Like I, , the bottom's dropped out and I'm looking at a, you can see the reef, and I'm like, holy shit. But then other times you're just like. You know, I, I don't, you don't seem to feel any fear. Like, and you just, your feet hit the middle of the board every time and it doesn't seem to make much sense, but I know what you mean. That flow state is awesome and it's kind of one of the, I guess one of those things that, it's one of those reasons that we keep coming back. Surfing's such, like, there's so much hard work for kind of small reward. I mean, it's all, it's not small reward, but those times that you hit that flow state or get that perfect wave or get barreled or sew. For me anyway. They're so rare that it's like a gem, ? It's like a golden moment. It's like, oh my God, it's amazing. You know, that, that, that happened today. You'd be buzzing for days after it, you know, after one. It could be one good wave. Yes, and I've got this really weird, um, I've talked to my mates about this. It's kind of weird. I, I can remember waves from when I was 18 or 19 or, you know, all of, you know, for the last 30 years I can remember particular waves that I've had. And I tell them, they're like, what are you talking about? Like, I can't remember individual waves, but I can remember those waves. It's really weird. But it's just those times where everything comes together, you're like, whoa, I surfed that like a guy that's been much better than me. You know? And that just like gives you that little glimpse of what, what might happen a bit more often if you keep going. Yeah. Yeah. You keep going. Sounds a bit like a drug addict, doesn't it? Yeah. But it's a, it's a healthy addiction vibe if you can manage it. Yeah, of course it is. Yeah. No, I'm save selfish creatures though, that's for sure. Like I, you know, as a, I'm sure so many surfers will relate to this . Your misses will go, oh, , where are we going holidays this summer, or should we go there? And you're like, there's no, there's no serious thing. We're not going there. Oh yeah, that sounds all right. But what about this? And you'll manipulate and you'll squeeze and you'll suggest, and you'll go, oh, there's no batch. , There's no batches available there. We better go to this other place instead. And you leave it too late so there's no accommodation or whatever. But we're terrible manipulative, , like drug addicts are, oh, that's all right. It's surfing. It's gotta be done. You gotta have something, right? Yeah. Yeah. I do feel sorry for all those, , well, women and men, they have to suffer for, for their surfer in their life. Well, most people like the beach, right. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. That's, that's, that's all we, we've got all these, yeah, we've got all these incredible like great walks in New Zealand, like world renowned walks. I haven't done a single one of them 'cause for the last 30 years, anytime I get a bit of time off, I go to the coast. Haven't done a single walk. Milford track the root band. Not a single of them. Terrible. Oh yeah. I think I'm the same. But you've probably been to more beaches than most people. Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah. I got a, I got a chart on my wall of all the places I've surf and it's, it's pretty full. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it keeps you, you know, motivated to get up early and, you know, stay fit and strong, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's that, , it's that quest to find that, um. That empty wave, that perfect wave somewhere is just so strong. Like with, without anyone else around. Actually, that's, so the, , my book mine that is the kind of, that's kind of the, uh, the motivation behind it. So have you read this? No. Have you read mine? So mine is, , I don't know if you remember about six or seven years ago, um, there was a guy called John Chow and he was an American missionary and he went to this island in the Indian Ocean called the, north Sentinel Island. Do you hear of this? No. So North Sentinel is this, , tiny little island and the Enderman Sea. Indian Ocean. Yeah. And it's part of that group, of the Nicobar Islands. And it's, so they reckon the people that lived there have been there 60,000 years without any human contact from the outside or very little. So John Chow went there 'cause he heard about them and he thought, well they need to be, you know, I'm a missionary. They need to be turned to Christianity. He turned up and they murdered him on the beach. And the Indian government, which, , administers that part of the world wouldn't even pick up his body. So because they were, they just. Won't be contacted. If you try and go there, they'll fire at you with bows and arrows. They're amazing. When I heard about this, I just went down this rabbit hole, and if you look, if you go to North Sentel Island on Google Maps and you zoom in on it, and the south of the island are two of the best surfing setups I think I've ever seen. It's like a mirror image breaking into this path and , it's perfect. And every time that Google updates this image, it's just better every time. It's unbelievable. It looks so good. So I was like, whoa, that's a good set setting for a book. But I had to come up with this. So I came up with this Aussie guy who's, his life's kind of turning to shit and Aussie, and he goes to Indo and he's just sickened by the tourists and the crowds and the filth, and he just keeps going up, up, up the archipelago. , And he ends up going to, he meets this fisherman who can, who brings him to North Sentinel. And then I had to come up with this premise that would be believable. Why he would not be killed if he ended up on the island. And , I won't tell you, I won't tell you what that is, but he ends up on this island in every surfer's dream of paradise with nine different, perfect waves on it. Wow. And , chaos ensues. So it's quite interesting. , Yeah, it's, it's been, it's been, , an awesome kind of journey with that book. Like it, you know, I, I. Get told about people that have taken it on, on board their surf charter for 10 days and it's gone through every single one of their mates, , as they're going around surfing these waves in this area. So, , yeah, so that's one of the books. And the other one is Lines, which is set in Ireland. 'cause I lived in Ireland for eight years and , kind of got a little bit involved in the surf scene there. , I've set that one in a, kind of the backdrop as a kind of brutal Dublin criminal drug smuggling gang, , and the waves on the West coast. So, yeah, they've been fun. Oh, cool. Yeah. I think I've listened to a few chapters inadvertently at the end of your, your podcast. Oh, yeah. Cool. I'll send you the book. Cool. I'll post it over to you. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Is it the, the Aussie guy who came upon his father? I remember that chapter in the garage. Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha. That was heavy. That's from mine. That one's from mine. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was actually, weirdly, there's a, , I think there's a movie coming out, a Kevin Costner movie called Head Hunters. And apparently it's about a guy, a surfer in Indonesia who's real sick of everything and goes and finds this perfect paradise island with perfect surf on it. Like, hold on a minute. That sounds like my story. So I'm waiting for it to come out before I sue. You know, you might get some royalties in the post. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully. I doubt it. So do I. You gotta, , you gotta go to LA and pitch your idea. Yeah. Too late probably. Yeah. There is, , some movie interest in the, , in the Lines book though. Oh yeah. There's some people looking at making that to a film. That's kind of all I can say at the moment. Yep. And apparently if anything gets ever gets made into a film, it's a miracle. So I'm kind of crossing my fingers, but not really we'll. . Yeah. I think it's a lot to do with who you know in the industry. Yeah. So it's getting the money. Yeah. Have all the guys with the good ideas, but unless someone goes, yep, yeah, I'll give you the money, it's not gonna, exactly. Yeah. Ideas are a dime a dozen, they say, and you only have to change something, what, 20% anyway. Right. And then you lose all. Legal rights anyway, so Dunno about that. Yeah, I think that's the case. Kevin Costner, hopefully he only changed to 15%. Oh, I say you're smarter than that. Yeah. Or his lawyers are. Yeah, they certainly are. That's how the world works. Well, , I encourage people to go out and listen to your podcast. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Tell us what it's called and where to find it. It's called Mad Surf Stories. It's on, apple Podcasts. , It's on Spotify and put 'em on YouTube as well. Awesome. , I've listened to every episode and I'm looking forward to hearing more. Yeah. And actually if anyone out there has got some mad surf stories, get in touch. I need some more. I've run out at the moment. I need some more people to come and have a chat to me. Okay. Have you reached out to Rob Bain? Rob ba No, he's, what did he do? , He was surfing in New South Wales and jumped off his board, landed headfirst into a rock and basically scalp scalped himself. Oh, that's not good. Yeah, I think he broke his neck as well. Well, it's been a, he, I interviewed him years ago. It's been a while. It was a mad surf story. Was he jumping off a rock or a boat? , You No, I'm just jumping off a wave. Oh, right. Oh no, that's not good. Yeah. Flyaway sort of thing. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, because you often do that, eh? When you, you like right at the end of the wave and you're like, oh, squeeze a bit more juice out of this. Yep. Next thing you know, look. Ooh, that's shallow. Yep. Tom Carroll must have some mad surf stories. Yeah. Oh, there there'd be millions. Yeah, there millions. I just need them to get in touch really. Yeah. Yep. Okay. And how can they get in touch? It was, I got, you can email me James@dragonbrothersbooks.com. Yep. And website's same. So if you listen to the podcast. Yeah. www.Dragonbrothersbooks.com. Yep. , And that'll take you to all of my books and stuff, but, , there's a contact form on there. Yeah. Yep. Oh, I'm sure there's at least one person listening that is willing to share a story or knows someone that can, , share Yeah, your email address or this episode too, so, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Please do. Yeah, and I look forward to hearing more. Nice one. Thanks Michael. Alright, James, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks having me. Alright. Sweet. Yeah. Thank you. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

https://surfmastery.com/barrel-mastery-academy What if the reason you can’t come out of the barrel has nothing to do with courage or experience, and everything to do with your brain? Many surfers believe that getting barreled is purely about skill, timing, or bravery. But if you’ve ever felt disoriented inside the tube, struggled to hold your line, or mysteriously fallen when the exit was right there, the real issue might be neurological. In this episode of the Surf Mastery Podcast, Michael Frampton reveals how vision, balance, and body awareness directly affect your ability to stay stable in the barrel, and why training your brain could transform your surfing. Discover why disorientation in the barrel is often a neurological challenge, not a lack of surfing ability. Learn practical tube riding techniques that help you stay balanced, compact, and focused on the exit. Understand how improving your vision, balance, and proprioception can elevate every aspect of your surfing.     Press play to learn the surprising brain-based insights and practical tips that could finally help you ride out of the barrel.  Transcript: welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps you to become a better surfer in and out of the water. I'm your host, Michael Frampton, and today we are talking about tube riding, getting barreled, and specifically coming out of the barrel. If you've ever struggled to come out of the barrel, then this one is for you. Tube riding. It looks like the easiest thing in surfing 'cause all you're doing is standing there. There's little movement in tube riding. However, it is the hardest thing in surfing. It's also. The pinnacle of surfing, getting barreled. It scores the highest in competitive surfing and surfers dedicate their lives to traveling the world and getting barreled. I struggled with getting barreled for years, specifically. I actually struggled with coming outta the barrel. Getting into the barrel. Uh, it's not that hard. It is coming out. That's the hard part. , And for years I could not figure out why until I had a simple realization. And the realization that I had is that it was a neurological problem, not a lack of courage or experience. See, I was on holiday in New York and went to Ripley's, believe it or not. And as you exit the show, there's a giant spinning tube covered in LED lights and you walk through a bridge to go through it. And after about two steps into this space, I was completely disorientated and felt like I was gonna fall over the edge of the bridge. I was immediately intensely motion sick, essentially in my brain. Basically wanted to go with the spinning tube. I had to close my eyes and, uh, feel my way back out, and I was seasick for quite some time after that. At the time I was actually studying functional neurology as well as struggling with coming outta barrels. So I put two and two together, and I spent some time on improving my vision and my balance and my proprioception. , And two powerful things happened. Firstly, my tube writing became much, much better. I was able to come out of the tube, you see, 'cause the barrel is very disorientating. And if your brain doesn't have the ability to trust its vestibular system or the balance system, when your eyes, when your vision is confused. Then you will fall in the barrel just like I wanted to fall with the spinning tube at Ripley's or not. But when I improved my balance, my vision, my proprioceptive, my neurological inputs to the brain, when I improved those and my brain trusted them more, they became more accurate and faster. Not only was I able to come out of the barrel, everything got better, all of my surfing got better. I just felt more confident and comfortable in the water. I actually also got stronger in the gym and I stopped getting seasick, so I was able to go on a boat trip. And if it wasn't for all that neurological work that I put in, I wouldn't have been able to surf Cloudbreak. You need to go on a boat and if you are motion sick, when you get to a, a wave like that, you're not, probably not gonna paddle out. So I managed to get barreled at Cloudbreak. All because of some simple neurological training. So if you are someone that struggles to come out of the barrel and you're not sure why, , this is most likely the reason. Improving your neurology will not only improve your tube riding, but every single aspect of your surfing, the way you move your posture and even your health, there actually have been studies, about people improving their vestibular function or their balance system. They actually improve their mental health as well as a pub med study all about it. I have just released a group coaching program coming up that will take you through all of this. You'll learn how to assess and improve your vision, balance, and body awareness. We'll go through some practical tips for tube writing as well. To find out more and to register, you can go to surf mastery.com and check out the link there on the homepage. And of course, there will be a direct link to this program in the show notes. I'm more on that at the end, but for now, let's get into some, tube writing tips. Tip number one. This is the obvious one. You've gotta find barreling waves. So you've gotta specifically travel to waves that are known for barrels. Now that might just be a local beach break. , And then within that beach break you need to be selecting the waves that do barrel. Or going outta your way to go to a reef break that is known to barrel. So yeah, you gotta find them. Tip number two. You have to feel comfortable with pulling in and falling and pulling into closeouts. You gotta get comfortable with failure in the barrel. That is key. . Just like anything, the more times we fail, the closer we are to success. If you want to learn to drop in on a vert ramp, you have to first learn to knee, slide and to fall. And if you happen to watch the recent stab in the dark with Kelly Slater, there was a candid look at some of Kelly Slater's surfing and you'd be surprised how many times that he pulls into closeout barrels. 'cause if you don't pull in and try, you never know if you're gonna make it. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of failure, so you cannot be afraid to fail. Side note, improving your neurology and especially your body awareness actually will make you safer in the barrel to be ready for what happens, uh, when things go wrong. Tip number three, which segues from there is your true riding stance. So if you've got any kind of poo man stance where your head is forward of the inside rail or your butt is sticking out further than your outside rail, you're gonna get clipped. Yeah. Your butt is gonna get hit by the lip. And in reality, the barrels that you're gonna be going for are going to be small barrels. And the more you can compact yourself into a good tube riding position and keep your entire body over top of your board and centered, and a good functional tube writing stance with your hands in the right place, ready for the board to slip under you. Your hands are there to stop it hitting your face. It just happens to be the right, uh, position to be in the barrel as well. Kind of like a tucked in fighting stance of sorts. Nice and compact. Nice and safe, compact and fitting in the barrel. So we need to have very good and accurate body awareness and strength in that position of a good tube writing stance. I. I recommend practicing in front of a mirror, and of course, we will go into a lot of detail on this during the course. Tip number four, keep your eyes on the exit. We have a tendency to look up at the lip in the barrel. We can get kind of hypnotized and distracted, and of course we tend to go where we are looking. So if you are looking up at the curling lip, your board will drift and you will fall. So keep your eyes focused on the exit. Tip number five. Do not solely rely on your visual field. Instead, we're gonna bring some focus into how it feels. How does your board feel under your feet? How does your body feel in that position? Am I balanced? If your vision is wiped out by a chandelier inside the barrel, will you be able to hold your position and your balance? Your visual field is the first thing to get confused inside the barrel. 'cause the barrel is a very disorientating place to be. So we need to rely on your feel and body awareness. So not only working on your tube riding stance in the mirror, but trying to hold it while you close your eyes. Open them again. See how much of that stance that you have maintained. Again, more on this in the course. Tip number six, listen to the wall. You know when you're trying to listen to someone in another room and you sort of creep up to the door and you move your whole body really close to the door and you slowly just lean your ear in towards the door to almost touch it. Trying not to make a sound. We kind of move our entire body closer and closer, almost touching the wall. Fingertips are just touching ears, just touching. We can do something similar in the barrel. Just lean in to listen to the wall. We kind of lean in. With our whole body, we wanna get nice and close to the wall of the wave. That's a reference point. We can even reach out and touch it to slow down. But we know if we're in a good body position, our butt's not sticking out on the outside rail, and a lot of us is nice and close to the wall. We are less likely to get clipped by what we can't see behind us. So leaning in and listening to the wall, that was a tip that helped me a lot as well. So I hope some of those tips help, and I hope to see you on the course. Again, go to surf mastery.com, or there is a direct link to find out more about the course and to book. It starts up in a couple of weeks, If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. Thanks for tuning into the Surf Mastery Podcast and until next time, keep surfing. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

What happens when a former White House speechwriter, who’s written for presidents and packed auditoriums, decides to humble himself in a cold New Jersey lineup at 35? David Litt isn’t your typical surf author. He joined the Obama White House at just 24 and became one of the youngest senior presidential speechwriters in history, crafting remarks on healthcare, climate change, and even comedy for the Correspondents’ Dinner. After publishing Thanks, Obama and Democracy in One Book or Less, he turned his attention to something far less controllable than politics: surfing. In this episode, David brings a writer’s precision to the chaos of learning to surf as an adult, articulating the fear of hold-downs, the shame of kook moments, the obsession with progression, and the addictive pull of those brief, otherworldly flashes of flow. It’s a refreshing take for surfers: not from a prodigy, not from a lifelong local, but from someone who can actually put words to what most of us only feel. 3 benefits you’ll gain A deeper understanding of why surfing feels “more than a sport,” and how chasing flow reshapes your mindset in and out of the water. Practical perspective on fear, embarrassment, and adult progression, especially if you didn’t grow up in the ocean. A renewed appreciation for the lineup as neutral ground, where politics, profession, and identity fall away, and only waves (and humility) matter. Hit play for a thoughtful, funny, and surprisingly relatable conversation that will leave you seeing your own surfing journey, and your next paddle out, in a whole new light. https://www.davidlittbooks.com Michael Frampton: are you still surfing? David Litt: Yeah, I mean, right now I'm in Washington, DC but I was in New Jersey just a couple of days ago and I was out, , actually with my brother-in-law. We, we went out and it was,, good. , It's gotten cold, but it's also gotten less crowded, so it kind of works out. Right. That's the, that's the trade off in Jersey is in the winter, the crowds go away, but , every time you get. You know, you take a set on the head, you have the worst ice cream headache of your life. Michael Frampton: Yeah. It gets cold there. All right. Like really, really cold. Yeah. Ice floating down the Hudson and , into the sea. , David Litt: I think the coldest I've surfed in is probably like 35 degrees. , So what, that's something like. Zero or one. Michael Frampton: Yeah. David Litt: Chelsea Michael Frampton: just David Litt: doesn't, doesn't get much Michael Frampton: colder. Really? David Litt: Yeah. It's basically ice cold. Although it is, it's one thing that I like about surfing on the East coast in the US is one way you can kind of prove that you belong is if you're a new surfer, you don't necessarily need. Skill, if you're willing to show up when it's really miserable out right. You get a certain kind of respect just for being there. , And you get more respect if you can actually surf. I've heard. But, , hopefully , I'll discover that firsthand one day soon. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Well, surfing is a, it's a hard sport. , David Litt: I, I think it's one of those things, if I had known how difficult. Surfing is when I started, I definitely would not have started, , especially at 35 years old. So I'm really glad that I had no idea because I, I've gotten so much out of it. But if I had known how difficult this was gonna be, I never would've signed up for it in the first place. Michael Frampton: So when was the point, like the tipping point of that? Because obviously you were motivated to start and then you got to a point where you're like, oh man, this is how you must have, there must have been times where you thought, I'm just gonna give up. David Litt: Yeah, some of it I think is the cliche, right? That first wave you catch, even if it's just you're in the whitewater and you look back on it a few years later and you're like, maybe that was all of four or five seconds. But there's something pretty remarkable about it, and I think what I really fell in love with quickly was that sense that when you are. Up on a board, you're like in a different dimension, right? I always feel like it's almost like a, like a door to Narnia opens up, right? It's just this different place. And I started surfing at a time in my life where I was pretty, I, I just kind of gotten out of, or was maybe getting out of the only real episode of true depression that I've ever gone through. And it was really, uh, it was really tough. I mean really, really tough. And so I think the idea of being somewhere else was more attractive than ever. And. That absolutely hooked me in, right? That feeling of, okay, you're up on the board, that you're in this entirely new reality. And then. The ride ends and you're like, how do I get back there? Right. That was a big part of it. And I think the other thing honestly was I was surfing with my brother-in-law. He's a good surfer. I knew I was gonna see him for the rest of my life, and I knew that if I chickened out, he would kind of judge me for it. And I was like, I cannot let that happen. And that was a very powerful motivator, right? I talked to other people who learned to surf as an adult without a family member who was always gonna kind of roll their eyes a little bit if they gave up. And I don't know how they do it. Michael Frampton: Yeah, well I think it comes back to that, that original flow state that you felt and you connected with the ocean and your mind went blank for, you know, a few seconds on that ride. And it's that feeling that we, that we chase, it's so much more than a sport. David Litt: Yeah, absolutely. I think it was one of the hardest things in the book actually, because you, you don't wanna call surfing a sport 'cause that seems to diminish it, but then you don't quite know, there's not enough other words to dis, you don't wanna say an activity or a hobby or what, weirdly. Right. Writing a book about surfing, there are lots of challenges, but one of the biggest challenges was when you're describing the category of things that surfing falls into, what do you call it? And I don't even know that I succeeded in that. I think sometimes I just. Said, okay, I'll call it a sport in this sentence. And then, you know, but it was, , every time I did, I felt like it's like, ah, no, it's not quite doing it justice. Right. Michael Frampton: Mm. That's, I think it's, that's part of the allure of surfing. David Litt: Mm-hmm. Michael Frampton: I like to describe, I think it's an art, , simply. David Litt: Yeah. Well, you haven't seen me surf, but yes, it can be. I've certainly seen people surf and think that's, that's, you know, and it is a, it's a. It is a for people when I watch good surfers and I, I didn't, I don't, I wouldn't say that I am, um, especially artistic on a board, uh, yet maybe one day. But I do think I have an appreciation for that art that I didn't have before. So I, I will watch someone now and, and not just say like, oh, they look like they're good at surfing, but have a sense that they're expressing themselves. Via surfing, and that's cool, right? Like there's not a lot of, there's some other sports like that or some other, you know, pastimes, whatever you wanna call it like that. But it's, you know, if you're a, if you're a distance runner, you, it's less about self-expression, I think even though it, there's lots of things to recommend it. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I, I, I think surfing's more akin to. To music because David Litt: mm. Michael Frampton: You, you know, you, there's plenty of good artists or musicians who are very famous and have written great songs, but they're not technically very good musicians. David Litt: Mm. Michael Frampton: Like, like the punk rock era. You know, where they just sort of choose a, a, a line and they stick to it and they get very good at that particular style of music, let's say, but they might not even know what chords they're playing or David Litt: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Anything like that. And I think that's the beauty of surfing is it's definitely a sport if you want to ride a performance shortboard and enter competitions. But, but anything outside of that really, you choose whatever surfboard you like and whatever beach and style of surfing that you like. You can specialize in that and get reasonably pro proficient. You might not be able to go to Hawaii and surf a, a performance shortboard, but man, if you can, you know, ride some, some waist high or, or shoulder high nice waves on a longboard and you do it well, you're, you're still technically an artist and a surfer. David Litt: Absolutely. It's one of the things that I actually struggled with surfing because I tend to be the kind of person who says, okay, you, I'm doing a thing right now. I wanna get better. I want to, you know, keep progressing. Not in the, not in the most technical sense of, you know, I want to be able to pop up on a slightly steeper wave, but saying, okay, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? What's the next thing? And surfing helped me rethink a lot of things in life because with surfing, as you're saying. There sometimes isn't a next thing, right? Sometimes the point of surfing is to do it, and that sounds so obvious. And then at the same time, it's not how I lived the rest of my life, right? When I was at the White House, I was writing for the senior staff and I loved my job. And then I thought, okay, but I'd really love to write for the president. And then I think, okay, what kinds of speeches haven't I written for the president? I want to do that. And, and being driven in that way, I'm not against it. Uh, but it can also drive you crazy if you're not careful. Michael Frampton: But like that, that, that's such a, it's a good analogy because if you're gonna write a speech for the president, you don't have to be a good science fiction writer to do that. You know? You just have to, that's David Litt: true. Michael Frampton: You can compress your writing into a particular direction and actually get good at that. And that's what I think is similar about surfing. I think a lot of surfers that come in, especially, you know, since COVID, a lot of adult learners are coming in and the surfboard industry is just wants you to be a performance short boarder and feed you nothing but Kelly Slater and, and blah, blah, blah. I think that's really puts a lot of people off and makes people not really progress as fast as they should. But when you sort of approach surfing as more of an an, an art form and it's, you choose your path and it doesn't matter, then it's almost makes it easier. It takes a lot of pressure off as well. David Litt: Yeah, I, I think what you're saying, you talked about flow earlier and I think that's such a huge part of surfing for everybody no matter what age, experience level, you know, proficiency level you're at, almost everyone is chasing that flow. And it is true. I feel like boards are never marketed as this will help you, you know, at your level, feel what you're trying to feel. They're all like, you know, it is, it is this, as you're saying, it feels like a path sometimes. , Al although I think the other thing that is. Changing. It's interesting because the, the surf industry I think has been pretty welcoming of all the adult learners 'cause. We're customers? Uh, no question. There's definitely some surfers who are like, wait a second, what are you doing here? And I, I get that. You know, I'm not trying to say that I don't understand it, but I do think it's the, and also some of that, by the way, is jealousy because I wa on my part, um, you know, on the part of adult learners or something fascinating about surfing is, you know, when I see, when I'm in Jersey on a steep day and I have yet to get barreled, that is, uh, it's, you know, I've gotten into the barrel. I've just never gotten out and. I watch, you know, someone get barreled on a like steep, you know, head high wave in jersey at low tide. And I know that they're not just doing something I don't yet know how to do. They're feeling something I've never felt before. And that's kind of, again, different with, with surfing, right? Like if I could run a six minute mile, I don't think I would experience a brand new feeling. I think I'd just be going faster. Whereas if I. Get barreled. I know that's a feeling I just can't describe yet. Know, and that I think is really cool, right? You're always chasing a new, unlocking these new feelings, these new perspectives, these new, it looks different, right? You, you have the sense that the world looks different each time you get to do something on a board you couldn't do before. Michael Frampton: Yeah. It's, , getting barreled is. One, it's far more complex than most people think. There's a lot going on. I'm learning David Litt: that. Yeah. Michael Frampton: In, in the barrel. You know, I, I remember when I first, I'm sure you've been to Ripley's, believe it or not, in New York, and. David Litt: No Michael Frampton: you haven't. Okay. David Litt: No, I didn't know there was one in New York. Yeah. Michael Frampton: Okay. Well, there's a, David Litt: I I grew up there. I feel like that's the kind of stuff that's like tourist stuff we don't Michael Frampton: do. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Touche. But there's, when you, when you exit, there's this giant spinning tube that has a bridge going through it, and there's all these light LED lights on the, on the tube and it's spinning. And I walked, I got about two steps into that tube and I just. I felt like I was gonna fall over the edge. I felt like I was gonna throw up. I had to turn around and go around the other way, and I was motion sick for a couple of days. Like it was a pretty intense experience and it made me realize, oh, that's why I can't get barreled. Because there's a, there's a mismatch in my sensory perception. I, I was, at the time, I was also studying neurology and yeah, there was a mismatch. My, my peripheral sensory and my balanced sensory system knew that I was level, but my eyes were confused at, and I was like, that's the same as the barrel. No wonder I fall off every time I'm in the barrel. So I went through this journey of really lining up my ocular and vestibular with your vision and your balance and that. Only then could I get barreled. So David Litt: interesting. Michael Frampton: You have to have a very, you have to have, almost have like an elite athlete, uh, balance and visual system to be able to go in the barrel because there's so much going on. David Litt: . And like, like everything, right? When you watch people do it and they do it well, it looks so easy. , That's the cha. I was just weirdly, I was, um, listening to the audio book of, uh, a biography of Lorne Michaels, you know, the guy who created and, and still runs, sat live. Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. David Litt: And one of the, the many, many sort of quotes that he apparently says often is the pro. The problem with making things look easy is that people think it's easy. I think that's definitely, I imagine true of a lot of surfers. My experience so far is, this was last winter. Matt and I were out surfing. I had the, the guts to try to backdoor a wave. I got into the barrel. I had enough time to think, oh, holy crap, I'm in the barrel. And then, uh, my board hit me. Well, I had my hands up. It hit me where my face would've been if my hands hadn't been in front of it. So that's as far as I got. But I was like, oh, this is, I, this feels different. It wasn't transcendent 'cause it was mostly a board hitting me in my face, but it was like, this definitely feels like a new. A new experience. So hopefully, you know, one day I will, uh, I'll get there. Michael Frampton: Yeah, well, like Jerry Lopez says the first 20 years of surfing is just to test whether you're actually interested or not. And, um, David Litt: yeah, well he didn't start at 35, I guess. Michael Frampton: Well, touche Yeah, I was quite a late starter as well, and gosh, it, it was 12, about 12 years into my surfing journey before I really got a proper barrel. So, David Litt: yeah, Michael Frampton: it, it takes time. David Litt: Right. Michael Frampton: Um, one of the, one of the things in the book you say is it's surfing is like a language that's trying to kill you, which is very funny. Yeah. But, but also very apt. David Litt: Well, the, the thing that I, when I started surfing, you know, we've been talking about this, the, this idea that it's hard, but it doesn't look hard when you watch people who are doing it. And so when I started surfing, I thought, okay, you know, I figured things out in my life. Right? You know, you learn, you figure out, all right, you get better at this thing, then you work on this, that other thing. Um, and I've thought about that in other athletic things too, right? I grew up skiing. . It's just as a hobbyist, been a runner for a while, that sort of thing. I wrestled in high school, right? So I thought, okay, it's a sport, it's, you know, you, it's like a language, right? You just kind of learn by building blocks. I didn't appreciate the extent to which there is so much. So much of surfing is dealing with the fear and the kind of visceral panic that ha comes from being a tiny animal in a very big ocean, right? You're just like, oh, my whole evolutionary biology is. Exists to keep me out of here, and now I'm going into here. And that feels very different. And I, and the first time, , the, and I wrote about it in the book. The first time I got held down by a wave of any real size. I just, that was the moment where I was like, oh no, this is, this is not the same even as skiing, right? I say I love skiing, but I say to people, it's like, if every ski run started with an avalanche, right? Like it's a very different experience. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think that's the, the, the biggest barrier for, for, for people to, or I think it's why people take so long to learn surfing. Mm-hmm. Is the, is the fear. And not just the fear of the ocean, but the fear of shame. David Litt: Yes. I, I was shocked by this, that for me. I thought I was gonna learn mostly physical stuff, right? I was like, okay, I'm gonna practice my popup and then I'm gonna get better at popping up. And mostly I have to learn how to pop up. And it's true. I'm still working on my popup. But for me, the real challenge of surfing has been learning to deal with fear, right? As you say, there's the fear of like, there's a big wave right behind me and it feels like it's gonna kill me. How do I not chicken out? But there's also that fear, especially as an adult, where you're like, I'm gonna look like an idiot a lot. And you know, I'm gonna have like teenagers laughing at me and I'm gonna feel less athletic than I've ever felt in my life. And yet I'm gonna come back to the beach the next day and do it all over again. And if you can do it enough times and you can get your mind right about it. That becomes liberating. I often say I don't think that surfing has turned me into a different person, but I think it's made me maybe 10% better at dealing with that fear of shame and embarrassment. But 10% is a lot. Right. That that's enough to change your life. And I absolutely think without surfing I wouldn't have had that, , that knowledge that I have now. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I think that's why kids learn a lot faster because they don't care how they look or David Litt: they just playing. Yeah. And you're used to looking like an idiot when you're a kid. Right. Like, and it's okay. Right. It's cute. When I started surfing at 35, right? That's around the age where you're just like, definitely not a young adult. You're not an old adult, you're just an adult. You're a regular adult. And so I came from, I had started working at the White House when I was 24. And obviously the standards, at least in the Obama, you know, I'm not, not commenting these days, but the standards at one time in the White House were very high. So it's not like you could learn on the job, but there was still a sense that youth was part of, you know, part of your identity. Right. So you were figuring things out. People understood that it was, , it was part of what made. People excited about you at 35, that starts to change a little bit. And so there's this idea if you're embarrassing yourself, you're not a young person figuring it out. You're just an adult who doesn't know what they're doing. And I think it's why a lot of adults stop learning new things because learning usually involves some amount of embarrassment, especially if you're learning something that you're gonna do in public. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's very true. Out, out of all my research, there's, there's only one surfer who started late in life that became any good at it, and that's, , Robert Weaver Wing Nut from Okay. The endless summer two, and, yeah. I was so surprised and confused when I found out he didn't start surfing till he was 17. I was like, that doesn't make sense. How do you get so good at surfing? David Litt: Yeah. Michael Frampton: It starts so late, , and then I got the pleasure of interviewing him and it turns out he's been body surfing since he was five. David Litt: Yes. That usually there's often that loophole, right? Like, well, so Eve, this is obviously a, a lesser example of it, but, . So I, I've talked about surfing with my, my brother-in-law, Matt, and that's a lot of what the book's about. And I was always like kind of annoyed 'cause you know, I'd say like, oh, how long did it take you to feel comfortable taking off on a, you know, one of these head high waves that, uh, we get in hurricane season? And he was like, nah, I just always kind of did it right. Like he wasn't, and, and, and I was, where did that come from? But on the other hand, he did, he skateboarded for a long time, even though he started surfing. In his twenties, but he was a skateboarder for a while before that. And you can see that in his form, right? Where, you know, he's not a, a pro surfer, but he is definitely somebody who is expressing himself on the wave. And, and can, and I write about this in the book, can definitely turn some heads, , when he kind of claws his way onto. Something steep. And I think that is, , if he wasn't a skateboarder, I have to assume that he would be more in, at least I have to tell myself he'd be more in my situation, I, I thought that skiing would be helpful and it wasn't certain ways, but in a lot of ways it was just not similar enough. Michael Frampton: I grew up skateboarding as well, and it's, , the concrete is brutal. So David Litt: yeah, imagine far more I would imagine. I, yeah, I wanna get into, I have a surf skate and I just, like, we're talking about fear. I, I, the fear of embarrassment is wearing all the pads and being like the adult at a skate park, not knowing what they're doing. And then the fear of, , you know, physical injury is, is concrete seems a lot less fun to fall on than the ocean. Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. But you're right though. I mean, learning to, you know, sort of working on your surfing technique on a, on a surf skate style skateboard is actually a really good way to sort of, to lock it in. David Litt: , Yeah, I gotta start to do that. We, we, uh, we were talking before, it's, it's winter here, so maybe not for a couple of months, but, alright. Yeah. Yeah. 2026 gonna be the year of this surf scape. Yeah. As long as long as you get knee pads and real good wrist guards. Yeah. And learn how to fall before you skate, which sounds strange. No, no, that makes sense. Like running up a ramp and, and, and sliding down it on your knees and your hands like, like a kid might do, and just learning how to, instead of. Land hard bang, but learn how to actually slide with it. Oh, I see. Okay. I'm glad we had this talk. Yeah. That was not what I would've done. Michael Frampton: Yeah. , David Litt: I would've just tried it and then probably not tried it again after I got hurt. Yeah, Michael Frampton: yeah. Yeah. Just really good knee pads and really good risk guards is, is what you need. , And a helmet obviously. Yeah. And, uh, and let go of all that shame David Litt: sense. Michael Frampton: Easy as that. David Litt: Yep. That's, yeah, just do those things and you'll be all set. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I actually just, was just working on an article at the moment about, how saying that, , good surfers are stoics by default because surfing teaches you stoicism without you realizing it. David Litt: I like that idea. Tell yeah. Tell me more about that. Michael Frampton: Yeah, well, I mean, courage, temperance, , justice and wisdom and all, all of the stoic virtues and things that the stoics talk about. I've been reading, , a lot of Ryan Holiday recently. Mm-hmm. Ah, surfing teaches you all of that stuff just by force sort of thing. David Litt: Yeah. And well, it's interesting because it's got this kind of hippie reputation. Right. Mm-hmm. But when you do it, so unlike I, I, um, I wrestled in high school, right? Wrestling is a character building sport for sure. That's what you call something if it's kind of unpleasant . But that's got a very macho reputation. Whereas surfing has this reputation, especially for people who don't surf of being very laid back, very chill, very California. But then as you're saying, right, a lot of these virtues are very, are much more like traditional sort of classical virtues. Michael Frampton: Yeah, definitely. I think that hippie reputation came from, gosh, if you could wind back the clock and go to first point Malibu, where the water's warm. Mm-hmm. And the waves are really easy and it's not crowded. Surfing pretty, is a lot simpler and a lot less dangerous. Now that's, that's sort of a little, that's a bubble, obviously, a bit of an outlier. Whereas, you know, if you wanna be a good surfer and surf all conditions and stuff, you, you need to be a bit more stoic than, than hippie. , David Litt: Yeah. Well, and, and surfing is interesting 'cause the other, the, you know, the things that I've done more of in life, right, involve. Either the comedy world or the political world, and those are also two universes where people think they really understand them, even if they have no real experience as a practitioner. Right. And surfing because of the beach Boys, because of, there's a vibe, right? There's all kinds of stuff. I always think that, right? United Airlines is the airline where I happen to have my most of my frequent flyer miles and all of their advertising. For like sign up for United Credit card and get how, however many free frequent flyer miles, it's a picture of a surfboard, right? That's, it's like the iconography has become so, so, so that everyone feels they understand what surfing is. And I think weirdly, you know, having now been surfing for a couple of years, I think it's mostly given me an understanding of how little I get it. , Where I think I would've said, oh, I kind of get that before. Okay, well I, I see the, whatever the t-shirt with the surfboard on it. And, , I, I listened to the Beach Boys, I, I, I know the vibe. And now I'm like, oh no, there's a lot more. And it's a lot more, it's a lot more complicated. And as you say too, right, like in all part, all kinds of parts of the world that are not very Californian and attitude. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I mean, surfing, it's , like, like we said before, like that, that moment where you're on a wave, even if it's for three seconds. We, we will go through so much to get another David Litt: mm-hmm. Michael Frampton: Taste of that. David Litt: Yeah. Michael Frampton: And we forget about the struggle we went through to get it. David Litt: It is. I, it happens to me all the time where I'm like, okay, this has been a, you know, tough session or we, we've been talking about surfing in New Jersey in the winter, right? It's like, I'm freezing cold, I can't feel my feet and I'm just gonna get one more wave. But then you get that wave and you're like, oh, I'm, I just, I should get one more after that. , Totally forgot that it took 45 minutes and, it's snowing out and freezing and you say, oh, the next one I'll just, I'll just grab real quick. , And there's all kinds of ways you can talk yourself into. Into staying out. , Which is a good thing in some ways, but it's funny to me. I mean, part of, , I think part of this too, and I think I had a big chunk of this in the book, there was a lot of things in the book that I, I ended up having to cut because there were very specifically for surfers and no one else, right? Like I, there was my editor who has surfed, a couple of times in his life. But, and, and. Likes reading about it, but it was, isn't a nons surfer. He was like, you, you can't write about like, board shapes this much. Right? , No one outside surfing is ever gonna read your book If you have, you know, pages and pages that are about , a fish versus a mid length versus a long board. And so I, I cut that, but another thing I cut was, was this idea that. Wave energy is just not something you interact with at all as a human being. Right. In other words, going back to skiing, just 'cause it's what I'm familiar with, gravity. You, I, I know how that works. Centrif uh, centrifugal force, right? I know how that works. Now, skiing is, I, I love skiing, but it, you can kind of guess what it feels like to have gravity and centrifugal force acting on you. Wave energy is totally foreign, right? It's this, it's like being on an alien planet and that is a very addictive thing, I think. . Michael Frampton: It sure is the neutral ground, the great equalizer, right? David Litt: Yeah. Michael Frampton: It doesn't matter how good you are at something else, surfing Will will humble you. David Litt: Yeah. And, and everyone's chasing. Some version of the same thing. Right. I again, I have absolutely found myself, um, I think about the, the trip that, uh, my brother-in-law law and I, and, uh, we took to the North Shore, right? Obviously we were not the best surfers out there on the North Shore. We weren't even close. And I'll speak for myself, I certainly wasn't close. , But I was chasing the same thing as some of these guys who were, . Going after the big set waves that I was not going anywhere near. And , again, we're chasing very differently. I'm not trying to compare myself in skill level, but I do think there is that kind of. That sense of equal ground that says we're all out here looking for some version of the same feeling we can't find anywhere else. And when you're in the lineup, you also just don't know that much about other people, right? You don't know their politics. You don't know culturally who they are. You don't know what they do for a living, right? It's, it is it it, if you're out in the lineup with strangers in that moment. It feels very equal, or at least it feels , very leveling, right? It may not be equal once you get into the kind of meritocracy of who gets priority on a wave, but it's a very, it's a new society, right? It is on land. None of that stuff matters in the same way. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Oh, definitely. If it wasn't for surfing, what sort of relationship do you think you would have with your brother-in-law? David Litt: You know, it's interesting, I got asked that recently and I, if I get asked things like that enough, I'm like, ah, I gotta ask Matt what he thinks. So I haven't asked him yet. , I think we probably would kind of be where we were at the start of all of this, or kind of during the pandemic, which is kind of , not hostile, but just like. You're there. I'm there. Hey, how you doing? All right. Good to see you. And a little, and I would've been, I'm not, I wouldn't speak for him. I would've been a little juer of some of his choices in life, I'm sure of that. And I will also say as we kind of entered this new era, uh, right. Trump 2.0 in the United States, I think I would've felt less curious about sort of his life. Not, and, and, you know, he's not like a Trump. You know, like a big Trump guy or anything. But he, he is culturally and kind of all of, all of the demographic fault lines in the United States that are, you know, I'm sure wherever you are right now, you're kind of seeing play out, right? Matt and I are on opposite sides of all of those, just by coincidence, and so I think I probably would have not, I've seen him less, and I say this. With a little bit of, you know, we've talked about shame and embarrassment. I'm embarrassed to say it, but I think I would've seen him less as an individual person and more as a kind of demographic type. And then I would've wondered why he wasn't, you know, friendlier to me. So I'm glad I started surfing, I guess is what I'm saying. Michael Frampton: . And have you guys sort of pushed and pulled each other from either side of the political spectrum to gain some understanding and maybe even change a a few extreme opinions? Yeah, I think so. In certain ways. I mean, I, I kind of always say like, you can't, you, I'd, I'd ask him about how he's changed because that is also part of what I learned, right? David Litt: Is like when you try to just think you know what's going on in someone else's head, you're usually wrong. But even little stuff, right? Like I remember, so in, in New Jersey, , there we have a law, the plastic bag ban. You can't use plastic bags, you have to bring a reusable bag. And I remember when he was talking about, like complaining about that and saying, well, the reusable bags, they use up so much plastic, no one remembers to bring 'em, so you're always buying new ones. And I didn't really take that so seriously. I thought, oh, it's probably Joe Rogan said something about plastic bags and he's just repeating it. And the more I thought about it, and frankly, the more , the more I realized that my. That I was kind of being a jerk and not taking him seriously. Right. And the more curious or open-minded I got, the more I thought, okay, that's actually a pretty good point, right? I still would like us all to use less plastic bags, but this is not, , if I was, if I was running New Jersey, I'd be like, let's come up with a different and better way to try to, get people to use less of these things because this way is not working. And it's a small thing, but it's a big thing. The other, I, I often say this with, , with Matt, right? We went to Spain, , on a surf trip, and we stayed in an Airbnb that happened to have an induction cooktop. And I've always been a fan of induction for climate purposes, right. It's a, it's cleaner run, you can run it off electricity, hopefully you can run off clean energy. And Matt is now a big fan of induction because it cooks a breakfast burrito really quickly and evenly. And it's not that, well, we came to the same place, but it's, it's the kind of thing where if you don't. Step outside your comfort zone. You just don't encounter as many different things. , And when you encounter new stuff, it's one of the best parts of being a human being. You learn things. And so I think both of us have learned a lot. . Michael Frampton: That's really cool. Surfing is, , complex outside of the water as well. , If you could go back to speak to your beginner surfing self, what advice would you give yourself? , David Litt: Start swimming. We, I mean, that's the surfing advice I'd give myself, right? , It took me a lot and I, I've actually gotten out of the habit. I gotta get back into it. But it took me a long time to be like, oh, if I did, when I'm not, when I'm not able to surf, if I just go to a pool and swim laps. That's gonna help me last longer when I'm surfing. And I felt like when I was starting the, the biggest hurdle was an hour in or 30 minutes in, I'd get exhausted. And then everything after, that's just garbage, right? You're not gonna learn when you, when you can barely move. And so when I'm swimming laps, I can just get more out out of each session. And I think if I was talking to a beginner surfer and they, they were getting hooked, right? Like really getting into it, I would just be like, find a place where when you're not on a board, you can go swim laps. , And then. More emotionally, I think. I think I did a lot of things right, but I think what I would say is, kind of even more of that understand, I, the thing I wish I had known right from the jump, but that I, , an instructor that I had told me kind of quickly is to think about that question of, are you better than you were before , you got went out that day, right? . That I think is what changed for me, both surfing and made me think, oh, surfing could change my life, was when I started to say, all right, yes. I went out, I got my ass kicked. , I got up on one two foot wave. And other than that was just like pummeled by, , a series of sets that were the height of a garden gnome, right? Like, I did not feel very proud of myself, but I'm a better surfer than I was before I paddled out. And let's not lose sight of that. And once I started to think about that in other parts of my life, it really changed how I thought about. All kinds of aspects of life, and I think it's a big part of what helped me get out of, that period of depression I was in when I started. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's a good point. . You, we don't really regret a surf. David Litt: No, I, it's, it's amazing how rarely you, you know, I,. Matt and I say this to each other a lot, especially when it's cold in New Jersey, right? It's just better to be surfing than not. And there are really very few instances where I think, oh, I, back when I was like dithering before, , I'm sitting in my warm. Home office saying, do I really want to go out today? Or I'm looking at the cameras and maybe it's like bigger than I'm used to. It's a little scary. And I say, all right, I'll go for it. Right. It, it is very rare that I've said to myself, I wish I hadn't. Almost always, I'm just really glad I got out there and , obviously that's within some limits, there's been days when it's double overhead in New Jersey and I thought, okay, well I will just watch patiently from the beach and that's cool. But within those limits, . Almost always, you, you, you regret not going, but you don't regret going. Michael Frampton: Yeah. How would you describe your relationship with surfing in the ocean? David Litt: Well, you know, that's a good question. I think that for me, a thing I had never experienced was just being out in the ocean. At all, right? I, I'd swam a little bit in the ocean, so I, you go to the beach, you duck under some waves. But that, but that experience of just staying there. , And I think it gave me like a new appreciation and respect, but a new appreciation for just being present in the ocean and for being in one spot. I'm the kind of person I tend to be moving around a lot, right? I tend to like the kind of person who says, okay, maybe there's a hike, right? I'm not, I don't wanna sit on the beach, I wanna go for a walk. And so to be in one spot or one relatively, you know, just one break for a long time and it's really paying attention to it, right? Really trying to understand that one wave or that one, , the conditions that one day you start to notice stuff. And that I think has been really one of my favorite things about surfing, especially in winter, in, in Jersey, right? Otherwise I would never go out in the ocean in the middle of winter. What am I? Crazy. And so, and sometimes you see really cool stuff out there, right? We've got some cool birds. Every so often you'll see a whale or some dolphins, , stuff that you just, you never imagined you would see really Beau. And we have great sunsets in New Jersey, very underrated sunsets. And , I was out the other day and I. More or less still dark. And I caught a couple waves, which was nice. But also like there is just a great sunset I never would've seen. And definitely not from that perspective. So that feels like such a gift, right? Just to be able to spend time out there. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Oh, it sure does. Yeah. Surfing is, . It's holistic. And so something you mentioned there was like, I mean, that is how you get better at surfing is looking for more and more details mm-hmm. In what's going on in the ocean. And I, I'm the same. I'm, I'm someone who never. Feels sitting still is boring and, but if I can just lock into sitting there and scanning that little sliver of horizon, trying to predict the next set, where it's coming, where it's gonna break, and reading the little, details on the, on, on the wave. Yeah. Or the secondary waves and the wind chops and all that jazz. The more, yeah, the more focused and detailed you get to reading and predicting the ocean. That is what makes the difference and that's what separates great surfers from good ones. David Litt: Yeah. Well, and, and it reminds me of writing a little bit in that if you just start writing, you might think, okay, I wanna write like big stories. And you have this idea of for the finished product. But if you talk to writers. There are almost all the kinds of people who say, oh, I really want to dig into that sentence, right? Yes, I also wanna do the big stuff. But it's not that, it's not that the sentence is boring, it's that until you really get into it, you don't know why a sentence is so interesting, why rereading the same paragraph over and over again. You learn something or, or rereading a book you really love, right? You, you learn something new every time. And so I think with surfing it's, and a lot of things that involve that kind of learning or the more you do it, the more you, you. Grow to appreciate the little things. And it, not in a like zen, kumbaya way, but just in a way of saying, oh, I didn't realize how, how much complexity there was and how much there was to learn. It's like so many things in life when you don't know a lot, you think there's not that much to learn. And then the more you know, the more you say, oh, there's a lot out there. I have, I don't know at all. Michael Frampton: That's a good point. , That's a great analogy. Yeah. 'cause sometimes we read a sentence. Especially poetry, I think, oh, wow. What an amazing sentence. And David Litt: yeah, Michael Frampton: you wanna read it again? And then you say, oh, then you, maybe the poet rewrote that sentence a hundred times before each word. Mm-hmm. Or each comma was correct. And so yeah, there's the, the details. Hmm. Yeah. When, why writing? When writing, when did your, , writing ability and passion begin? David Litt: Well, I, I was always a reader, right? I was one of those kids that just loved to read. And I think most writers I know that's kind of how you start, right? In the way that probably most chefs started is like they really liked to eat. When I was in college,, I thought I was gonna do comedy writing. I, I did standup comedy when I was in high school, growing up in New York, and I got to college. I did improv, I edited the Humor magazine. So that's where. The writing sort of started from was me saying, oh, I wanna do comedy and so I wanna write jokes and I wanna write funny stuff. And then I also had a couple of writing teachers in college who were really great. So much of it comes, I think, comes down to like, you have people who have done it, who believe in you that you can do it. And I have a lot of respect for people who just use pure willpower to say like, I believe in myself, even though I don't know anybody who, you know, can mentor me. But for me, I, I felt like with writing it was just, it was, I had a sense that this was possible. Then I ended up in DC and I, when I moved to DC in 2009, I thought I wanted to do healthcare policy because I worked as a field organizer for Barack Obama and, obviously United States, , famously without. Universal healthcare. And we had a lot of people, a lot of volunteers I talked to, I could see what the healthcare system was doing to them. And it turns out I'd be terrible at that. But I found, , there was a speech writing firm with former Clinton speech writers, right. Who had worked in the White House. And very early on, one of them said to me, , I think if you kept doing this, you could write in the White House one day. And I thought, okay, that's, I, I didn't believe him. But that meant a lot to me and that sense of someone who saying, I've done it, and I believe that if you work at it, you can do it. I mean, that's a really powerful thing in, in someone's life. Michael Frampton: Side note. , I think it's, , your surfing book is funny. It's very funny. David Litt: Well, thank you. Yeah. You know, I, , I know, I, I, I think trying to, I think it's fair to, I don't. Yeah, I was going for like the funniest surfing book, but I don't think the bar is super high. , There's some irreverent surfing books. There's, there's, uh, so it's not a, it it, but it's not a crowded category. There's really not that many surfing books. Actually. There's some, but compared to a lot of, you know, fly fishing books, there's so many fly fishing books. I, and I, I, I love a at fly fishing book right there. Baseball, there's a million baseball books. There's not that many surfing books. Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. But it's such a fresh take like. O obviously you're a very good writer. You are, you are. Well thought. And then you came to surfing already a writer, so you could articulate the experience as an adult beginner. So well, I'll be honest, like when I first. Once we had sort of confirmed this, um, interview, I was like, oh, I suppose I've gotta read this book about surfing from this beginner. And then, right. I was pleasantly surprised at how many times I was just laughing at your, your takes on the surf industry and the, the surf coaches. And, and also, you know, I, I learned a lot about. , What the journey is like starting surfing as an adult now. Sort of in, in, in the two thousands. 'cause I was a late starter, but I was still, you know, 18, , right. And it was, you know, 20 years ago. What I'm trying to say is like, those who are listening to this podcast, my audience, you might have the same thing or would wanna. No, read this book. It's very funny. It's a great take on surfing. You, you empathize with, with new surfers, you'll get a new look on surfing itself. , It actually inspired me to go to go surfing, reading the book. David Litt: Oh, well I appreciate that. No. One of, for me, and I don't know what it says about me, but one of my favorite experiences as a, as a writer is to win over a skeptic. Right? So my, my favorite. You know, when I say reviews, like, you know, , on Amazon or Goodreads or something, right? My favorite positive reviews are from people who are like, I, you know, like, why would I pick up a book about surfing? I've never thought about surfing in my life. Surfing bores me, and I love this book. Right. From that I, I'm always happy if somebody says that. But then also the same thing, right? Of people who say, 'cause my biggest. One of my biggest fears when this book came out was that people who have spent their whole lives surfing or, large parts of their lives surfing, would see this as presumptuous or, or not of value to them. And so I, the fact that there's, you know what you're saying and, and I've heard from other people, which, which makes me feel good, right? Is like that. There's like that. All right. I was skeptical. There's good reason to be skeptical, but I feel a little . I get what you were trying to do, which was specific and I found something for me in it, even though we've had very different experiences. Right. To me, that's, that's how I feel about writing in general. Right. Of like when I read something I really love and I say, oh, I have no idea fiction or nonfiction. Right. That's not me at all. And yet somehow we can connect. Right. I love that. That's why you keep doing it. . Michael Frampton: Yeah. I almost felt like the book was written for me, but I can also see how it was written for lots of different. People, it's very well worth. David Litt: Oh, well thank you. Yeah. If we, if we can keep, we can keep going with the praise, I'm fine with that. No, I, I but I really, I really do appreciate it. I guess it's, and it's one of the things you talk, you asked me like when I started writing and kind of, and, and I would say for me writing is like surfing in that and I've been writing a lot longer than I've been surfing and I'm much better at it. And, and I say that just 'cause I've been doing it for longer. . But I would say every week, maybe every couple of days I wanna quit. Right? Like the number of times my wife has heard me be like, maybe I should just give up on the whole writing thing. 'cause it's really hard. And the, the version for me of that feeling of being on a wave and you're kind of in a different dimension is when you make a connection with a reader, right? That it's not just the getting your own ideas out in the world, but it's that moment where when you feel like you and another human being have somehow. Connected, even though you may not have anything else in common. That's very cool. And it's, and it's hard to get that from, you certainly can get it from a lot of other experiences, but it's, it's hard, especially if you're mean, , you're not good at music. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Well that could be. David Litt: I, I almost failed eighth grade clarinet, so Yeah. That was, that version of human connection was out. Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Have any lessons you learned from writing helped you to learn how to surf and have any lessons you learned from surfing helped you to be a better writer David Litt: Well, definitely surfing has helped my writing and we, we talked a little bit about this earlier, that idea of saying, I'm just, I'm better than I was before. Right? You have a, a really just crap day. And instead of saying, I let myself down, you say, I got better. And writing, you know, it's, it's not unlike surfing in that you can have just a really unproductive session. Right? You and, and it's not the ocean pummeling you, right? It's the inside of your own mind, and either because there's too much there or there's nothing there. , Why did I even think that I. Had the right to try to sit down in front of a blank screen and create something. And if you beat yourself up about that, it just makes you do it again the next day and you don't learn anything. So I've, I started to say, Hey, okay, this was, you know, if I get up in the morning and I thought, oh, I'm gonna write 1500 words and they're gonna be great, and I write 200 words in their garbage to say, all right, fair enough. But. Better. I'm a better writer than I was before I wrote this down. Right. Just by doing it, I got better. That's been really, really helpful As a writer going into surfing, I don't know that it's been quite the same. I don't know that being a writer and makes you a, a, any, any better at learning to surf. , I think it's probably for me, been the other way. Michael Frampton: . It's a really good mantra though, just remembering, uh, , I'm a little bit better than I was. It's sort of a great surfing philosophy that is valid for anything else in life. David Litt: Absolutely. 'cause then you also start to chase experiences. Because you'll learn stuff, right? Like you then you, , and some of this is cliche and a lot of cliches are cliches 'cause they're true, right? , You start to think rather than am I gonna succeed or fail? You start to think about the process. You start to say, okay, what decision is gonna lead to me , growing more as a person rather than which decision is gonna be comfortable and kind of give me a. A prize or a gold star or whatever, right? Often the stuff that pushes you the most that you learn from is not the stuff that feels like a success. And it's not so much that you're learning from failure, it's that you're learning from frustration, right? Like you, you aren't able to do something and that's why you get better at it if you could do it. You're not better. And I, I think that's, I will say that's, again, we're talking about probably surfing, helping me as a writer. , I really have to remind myself these days if I have a, if I go out and, , it's like a nice two to three foot day, really mellow, maybe in the summer. , I feel like Kelly Slater, right? I can catch anything I want and I, I can do whatever I want on these, , admittedly pretty small. , On my, on my admittedly pretty big board, but I, I feel, you know, I'm really feeling myself and then having to remember that's actually, like, that might be fun. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's not success, right? , 'Cause if, if I'm not wiping out at least a little bit, then I'm, then I'm not pushing myself far enough. , And so the real days where I think, okay, that's a, that was successful. , You get a, you get a good wipe out in, right? You're like, oh, I didn't know what I, I went a little too far. . And that, I think is also true for, for writing, right? When I try to write, , I'm trying to figure out what my next book is gonna be now. But as I think about it, one of the things I want to do with, with every book or writing project is say, what's something I haven't, what's a muscle I haven't really developed before as a writer with this book, I, I thought a lot about descriptions of place, right? Just descriptive writing. 'cause that's not, I can do it, but it's not where, where I start as a writer. And so I was like, I really wanna focus on that. And so everything I try to think about, uh, how do you, how do you do something you're bad at? . Or at least not as good at? Michael Frampton: Hmm. Maybe you'll pick up the guitar. David Litt: Maybe I don't. I, you know, it's what, . I will say, so I'm 39 now, and I feel like the. The days of picking up the guitar and that being cool might be over for me. So now I'll have to do it despite it not being cool. But I feel a little better in that. , Better about that. No, I,, I think, I forget who it was who said that all comedians want to be musicians. And I think that is, that's largely true , there's plenty of writers. There's something about music. But I also think that, , one of the things I love is I write more is you start to be able to hear the musicality in. Language. , And especially, it's also a really nice thing about speech writing, which, you know, obviously I did professionally for a while and I still do sometimes, , occasionally. And a, a good speech has the, it certainly has a rhythm, right? It's not the same as a song, but it, it has a lot in common. Is more in common than you think. Michael Frampton: Oh, totally. Yeah. A good speech is almost poetic. David Litt: Yeah. And there's that, that sense, right? That silence has a lot and especially when it's delivered well, right? Silence, , these kind of crescendos that can build. President Obama was very good at that, especially at the end of speeches, right? , You could give him a very long run on sentence and he could al, he could sort of find. He could turn it into a crescendo, whereas if you gave that to most speakers, they wouldn't know what to do with it. Right. It would be like giving a really complicated piece of music, , to someone who's like, , good but not great at the guitar. They, they would struggle with it, but someone really good can take that and and turn it into something special. . Michael Frampton: Yes. Well, I think you took your experience, as an adult learner surfer in the surfing world and you know that in with some. Psychology and some relationship stuff, and it's a great book and David Litt: Oh, Michael Frampton: thank you. I think so. , David Lit, author of It's Only Drowning. Go and Get it. It's on Audible as well for those who obviously like listening to podcasts. David, , very well read by the way. David Litt: Thank you. I, I had to like even try some accents for that one. Michael Frampton: Yeah. David Litt: Talk about things that I was scared to do. Michael Frampton: Yes. No, it was very well read. So you're a good writer and you're a good speaker. I'm assuming you've had some media training as well, so well done. , Yeah. But again, David, thank you so much for taking the time I urge listeners to go out and, , check out David's book. David Litt: Well, thank you for having me. I'm, I'm glad you liked it. What happens when a former White House speechwriter, who’s written for presidents and packed auditoriums, decides to humble himself in a cold New Jersey lineup at 35? David Litt isn’t your typical surf author. He joined the Obama White House at just 24 and became one of the youngest senior presidential speechwriters in history, crafting remarks on healthcare, climate change, and even comedy for the Correspondents’ Dinner. After publishing Thanks, Obama and Democracy in One Book or Less, he turned his attention to something far less controllable than politics: surfing. In this episode, David brings a writer’s precision to the chaos of learning to surf as an adult, articulating the fear of hold-downs, the shame of kook moments, the obsession with progression, and the addictive pull of those brief, otherworldly flashes of flow. It’s a refreshing take for surfers: not from a prodigy, not from a lifelong local, but from someone who can actually put words to what most of us only feel. 3 benefits you’ll gain A deeper understanding of why surfing feels “more than a sport,” and how chasing flow reshapes your mindset in and out of the water. Practical perspective on fear, embarrassment, and adult progression, especially if you didn’t grow up in the ocean. A renewed appreciation for the lineup as neutral ground, where politics, profession, and identity fall away, and only waves (and humility) matter. Hit play for a thoughtful, funny, and surprisingly relatable conversation that will leave you seeing your own surfing journey, and your next paddle out, in a whole new light. https://www.davidlittbooks.com www.surfmastery.com Barrel Mastery Academy: https://surfmastery.com/barrel-mastery-academy The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

Are You Really Too Old to Surf - Or Just Believing the Lie?Feeling slower in the water, stiffer in the joints, or unsure if you’ve aged out of the sport you love? What if it’s not your body that’s holding you back, but your mindset? Surfing is often seen as a young person’s sport, but that belief is costing older surfers joy, progress, and freedom. If you’ve ever felt like your best surfing days are behind you, this episode shows that they might actually still be ahead. Backed by neuroscience and real-world examples, this conversation reframes what’s truly possible in your surfing life after 40, 50, and beyond. What You’ll Gain from ListeningA science-backed mindset shift that shows how the brain can get better with age, leading to smarter wave choices, emotional control, and more satisfying sessions. Real stories of aging surfers like Kelly Slater and Laird Hamilton who defy decline, plus insights from The Mature Mind, The Mindful Body, and Gnar Country that expose the myths of aging. Practical ways to thrive as an older surfer - from cognitive strategies to physical habits and creative approaches that will reignite your passion and performance. Press Play If You're Ready to Surf Smarter, Not SlowerDiscover how to keep surfing, keep learning, and keep enjoying the ocean, for life. Books: The Mature Mind by Gene Cohen The Mindful Body by Ellen Langer  Gnar Country by Steven Kotler - or the podcast interview: https://jamesaltuchershow.com/episode/superpowered-aging-with-the-master-of-flow-steven-kotler https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id794030859?i=1000679523450 Transcript: Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, education and inspiration for Lifelong Surfers. Are you too old for surfing? I don't think so. I think we've been lied to about aging. I'm your host, Michael Frampton, and I hate to admit it, but I am an aging surfer and there comes a point in our surfing life where we start to think is that it? Is that as good as I'm gonna get? , Can I even continue to surf with this knee? Should I just buy long boards? Am I aged out of tropical surf trips? Now it turns out that this negativity is actually just disguised as realism. Sure we may feel less paddling power, slower popups, stiffer joints, pain, blah, blah, blah. A sense that surfing like most other sports belongs to the young. Our expectations shrink. Our wave count drops our tolerance for risk. Disappears. But it turns out not because the body has failed, it's because the story has, and once that story takes hold, it becomes self-fulfilling. We stop experimenting. We avoid challenging conditions. We stop getting up early for dawnies, we. We upsize all of our boards. We surf defensively rather than creatively. We confuse caution with wisdom and what looks like natural decline is really learned limitation. Now that is a tragedy because surfing is actually one of the rare athletic disciplines where experience perception, pattern recognition, emotional control, all of those things actually matter far more than raw athleticism or strength or youth. Your ability to read the ocean and to stay calm and be efficient is actually what makes you a good surfer. Having one toe in the surf industry, I've been lucky enough to have some conversations , with some older, amazing surfers, and whenever you ask them about aging, , they often just simply shut you down. I remember talking to Laird Hamilton in the water and I asked him about longevity and aging, and he just immediately shut me down, said, no, we don't even talk about it. We don't acknowledge it. We just carry on. And I thought that was a really, a really unique and cool perspective. But it turns out there's a lot of, a lot of truth backed by science to this way of thinking. And I've recently read a couple of books. The first one is called The Mature Mind by Gene Cohen. Now Gene looks at the science of the Aging Brain. And yes, some of our processing speeds decline as we age. And of course our bodies slow down as we age, but our brains can actually improve if we do certain things. The overarching principle of the book would be the use it or lose it principle. So if we keep doing stuff, we can actually keep getting better. Scientifically speaking, our brains begin to use both hemispheres better, and those hemispheres work together better. We become more emotionally regulated and less impulsive responses. We actually integrate our memories and perception better. We become more aware of who we are and what we want. So in surfing terms, our wave selection gets better. The way we read the ocean gets better. We can remain calm under pressure, and of course we know the types of waves, the types of boards, and the way that we wanna surf better. We become more comfortable in our own skin and maybe we don't surf as well from a competition surfing perspective, but we actually end up enjoying surfing more. Cohen also talks about neuroplasticity. Some of the old science suggested that we actually learn. That we, some of the old science, some of the old science suggests that we lose our ability to learn as we age, but it turns out that's not true. If we continue to deliberately learn, our brain can stay plastic and we can continue to learn stuff. And Cohen gives concrete tips about how to improve our brains as we age. And one of those is to continue learning. Now, that might be a language or a skill, something that's intellectually challenging. He recommends doing crosswords and puzzles and strategy games. . Engaging in creative pursuits, writing, painting, music, dance, any form of artistic expression, and learning a new instrument or if you already play an instrument. Continuing to learn more about music and, and new songs encompasses both the learning and the creative side of things. We need to maintain and expand our social engagement. So that means maintaining our friendships and relationships and community, but also a term Coan users is to cultivate cognitive diversity. And what he means by that is meeting new people, being open-minded to hearing other people's point of views, reading unfamiliar books stretching yourself, being open-minded. Things that we naturally did when we were younger. Staying physically active, that's really important. We all know about that. Uh, pursuing meaning and purpose, whether that's through a, a new business venture, helping others through parenting or mentoring or volunteering is really important. Surfing actually fits many of these criteria. Obviously, staying physically active. If we continue to surf with friends, we can maintain our friendships and relationships. We can choose to talk to different people in the ocean as well. If we continue to surf new places and experiment with new surfboards, it's another form of learning. Surfing is endlessly complex, but of course we need to do things outside of surfing. And Cohen recommends just simple things like doing puzzles, crosswords, strategy games, musical instruments, language painting, those sorts of things. And as we age, we'll find we actually have time for these things. But above all, adopt the growth mindset. Reject the belief that aging equals decline because it doesn't. And the science shows that if we do the right things, our brains actually get better as we age. Which segues beautifully into the second book that I read called The Mindful Body by Ellen Langer. She's a Harvard professor and central to the idea of her work is that many of the limits we attribute to the body are actually imposed by the mind. People don't decline simply because they're older. They decline because they become mindless, stuck on autopilot, rigid beliefs and fixed rules. She has a great line. Stiffness is cognitive before it's physical and function actually improves when attention improves. Mindfulness, novelty, variation, all play a huge role. One of the most famous studies in her book is the Counterclockwise Study where she placed older men in their late seventies and eighties into an environment designed to replicate life 20 years earlier. The furniture, magazines, TV shows, everything was 20 years earlier. The participants were told to speak and behave as if it was 20 years ago, and within days, physical changes improved their posture, improved vision and hearing improved blood pressure markers improved, increased independence. They even started playing football on the lawn. The body responded to context. Their bodies responded to the way they were thinking their beliefs. A fascinating study and a book I highly recommend you read. And surfing is full of great examples. Kelly Slater still surfing performance short boards in his fifties. Pete Mel winning big Wave awards. Shane Dorian just charging Twiggy skip fry surfing beautifully in his eighties. And that leads me into the third book that I read, NA Country by Stephen Kotler. Now Stephen Kotler, previously in the podcast of spoken about the rise of Superman, all about flow states. Steven is a lifelong skier and he decided to learn park skiing in his fifties, something that's usually reserved for a lot younger people. , And he found, he was, he managed to learn to ski parks and then he actually took a group of his peers and taught them how to park ski something that all of them initially thought wasn't possible. Now, of course they didn't learn to perform like younger athletes or learn as fast as them. And what Steven found all he had to do really was just make each progression steps much smaller, slower, fewer falls. But when and when these older skiers started to realize, oh, I can learn new things. It just takes me a little bit longer to learn. Then they started playing more and getting into flow states and their attitudes changed something he calls peak performance aging. So what does this mean for surfers? Well, it's all good news when we let go of the decline narrative and stay curious, surf different waves, different boards. Keep surfing, keep learning, keep engaged, keep playing. Then we keep surfing and we become wise surfers and we enjoy surfing more. Strength and speed matters less, efficiency and grace matters more. We surf for ourselves. With wisdom and without shame, and that is what Surf Mastery is all about. Reading the ocean, staying calm, surfing intelligently, for life. And of course, check out the Surf Mastery Method. Many course@surfmastery.com. It is all about how to read the ocean better and become a wise surfer. I. And go ahead and read those books. The Mature Mind by Gene Cohen, G-E-N-E-C-O-H-E-N. It's actually on Audible as well as an audio book. And the Mindful Body by Alan Langer, E-L-L-E-N-L-A-N-G-R. That book is actually also on Spotify if you prefer to listen, and NA Country, it's GNAR Country by Stephen Koler. I actually didn't enjoy the book that much. I don't. I think it was a little long-winded, but I did listen to a podcast episode where he was interviewed by James Altucher and it summarizes his perspective on aging and is very inspiring. So I highly recommend you listen to that podcast episode. I will have the title and author of those books and the link to that podcast episode in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this episode, share it with an Aging surfer friend. And if you read those books, or if you've read any other books that you think align with this way of thinking, please write in and let us know. mike@surfmastery.com. Until next time, keep surfing and keep surfing until you die. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

What if mastering the waves has less to do with technique, and more to do with ancient philosophy? Whether you're paddling out for the first time or carving your hundredth wave, frustration, fear, and unpredictability are always part of the ride. In this episode, host Michael Frampton explores how stoic philosophy offers timeless wisdom that every surfer, beginner or seasoned, can use to improve not only their performance, but their overall surfing life. Discover how living “in agreement with nature” is the foundation of both surfing and stoicism, and why resisting the ocean never works. Learn how the four stoic virtues, courage, temperance, justice, and wisdom - naturally align with the traits of truly great surfers. Understand how to shift your mindset from ego to awareness, helping you manage frustration, navigate lineup politics, and stay stoked even in challenging conditions. Tap into the mindset of resilient, wise surfers by listening to this episode and learn how to ride the waves, and life - with stoic flow. Transcript: Why good surfers think like stoics and how stoic philosophy can make you a better surfer? I recently re-read The Obstacle is The Way by Ryan Holiday. It's a very famous book. , It's a short and modern summary of the ancient stoic philosophy stoicism and I realized just how stoic we are as surfers. Certainly good and experienced surfers, if you surf, you are already a student of stoicism. And if you're a good surfer, you're actually very stoic already. And if you're completely new to surfing, I think stoic philosophy can really help you on your journey. So today I'm just gonna give a little bit of an overview of stoicism and how it relates to surfing. Now one of the core teachings of early stoicism is that a smooth flow of life comes from living in agreement with nature. Surfing is a literal embodiment of this idea. You cannot fight the ocean. You must observe it and respect it, and learn to move in harmony with the ocean. Zeno, one of the original stoics who this teaching is attributed to didn't just mean nature in terms of mother nature and its literal sense. But he also meant it in terms of human nature, other people, society, and of course our own nature, which is very important I think, to to note these nuances. In surfing. Obviously we want to live in agreement with Mother Nature, the ocean and the weather patterns, et cetera. And as a surfer, we need to read and predict these, adapt and utilize them. But nature as in human nature, other people are. Because other surfers are everywhere, so we've got lineup, politics, and ethics. They're unavoidable, especially at your local break if you want to consistently go out and surf the same place amongst the same people, we have to get on with everyone and we have to learn the unspoken rules and ethics of surfing in general and also for that particular break. And of course, self knowledge, our own nature. Our own deep desires to surf. We need to live in agreement with that. 'cause if you try and deny that part of you, you live in fomo, fear of missing out, and you don't go surfing enough to satisfy that inner surfer. And, uh, it can certainly encompass and take over one's mind. And of course, if you go the other way and you embrace that inner surfing desire too much, it can certainly lead to ruining other aspects of your life and your relationships. So we must have a balance. We must learn to live in agreement with all three aspects of nature in order to be a good surfer. A smooth flow of life comes from living in agreement with nature. It's almost like a surfer came up with that principle. Stoicism at its heart is about focusing on what we can control and accepting what we can't. And furthermore, as surfers, we need to utilize what we can't control to adapt to and play with the ocean and the crowd. And if you want to be a good surfer, you cannot get away from that principle. , What can we control the surfers, . We can control the way we move. Our bodies, we can control our minds. What we focus on our inner dialogue, and of course, we can control our equipment choices and where we surf. We cannot control the weather, the waves, the conditions, or other surfers. We must learn to accept those. We can, of course, learn to read the ocean better and understand surf culture and human psychology, but we've got to accept these things as they are and focus on what we can control. The ancient stoics talked about four virtues, courage, temperance, justice, and wisdom. Surfing is dangerous, especially if you're gonna push yourself into bigger waves or surf rougher conditions or busier crowds. Courage is incredibly important. E courage isn't just about ignoring fear, it's about feeling the fear, acknowledging it, and moving forward logically. Improving your surfing requires that you repeatedly step into danger and discomfort, not recklessly, but willingly, and over time, this builds a quiet, [00:05:00] grounded courage, the kind that the stoics admired the most. Temperance. Temperance is about self-control and moderation. Now if you surf for long enough, you'll eventually call somewhere home. You'll become a local, and temperance is going to be really important 'cause other surfers and the ocean will punish anger and impatience and entitlement. However, mother nature and the crowd will reward. Calm and measured decision making. This is stoic temperance in practice. Temperance and surfing is about choosing waves without being greedy. It's about controlling your emotions and behaving fairly. It's about the way you conduct yourself, not only in the lineup and when you're surfing a wave. But also in the car park. If you show a lack of temperance and self-control or moderation, the ocean and the crowd will humble you. Now, this segues very easily into justice. Justice , is deeply embedded in surf culture, particularly with lineup politics, the ancient stoics associated justice with fairness, kindness and reverence, fairness and kindness. They're obvious and every lineup has its informal judges and experienced surfers that will enforce the unspoken rules. Now, sometimes that enforcement can come through harsh words or passive aggressive drop-ins, but reverence, reverence is an interesting word. The stoics thought of reverence as a deep solemn respect for something greater than yourself, the ocean. Surfing demands reverence for the ocean's power. It's chaos, it's cycles. If you choose the wrong wave or push beyond your capabilities, the consequences will arrive swiftly and the ocean will humble you. Without malice, justice will be served. So surfers certainly learn reverence through experience and acceptance. Wisdom. Wisdom is the application of knowledge. And in stoicism, it begins with understanding what you can and cannot control. Surfing teaches this lesson with brutal clarity. You cannot control the ocean or other surfers. What you can control is how you respond, and we respond with our board choice, the way we move the waves. We choose your positioning in the lineup, your timing, your breathing. You're inner a dialogue, and of course self-awareness and awareness of your surroundings. The wise surfer is hyper aware of both themselves and their surroundings. The wise surfer chooses the right board for their ability and the conditions. Good surfers exercise restraint when necessary. 'cause wisdom cannot be rushed. It comes from time in the water. It's not just about learning how to face the ocean with courage, but learning how to roll with it, how to dance with mother nature, having grace not only in the way you surf, but in the way you conduct yourself in the lineup and even the car park. And if we show courage and we maintain our temperance, our reverence, and accept the balance of justice, over time these traits can become instinctive and then we will become wise. Surfers. Now, the experienced surfer listening to this may just begin to realize how [00:09:00] stoic they already are, and maybe just how some of the philosophy that you've learned through your time as a surfer can be applied to other parts of your life. And if you are new to surfing, I think stoicism offers a really cool framework to think about surfing and to help guide your journey. , These simple principles can help you relax in the water, , manage frustration, trust in the process, and approach surfing with intelligence , rather than ego. 'cause as surfers, we remember those seven seconds on a wave, not the 90 minutes of paddling and duck diving and wipe outs and cold water and locals. We stoically choose not to dwell on the sufferings and the challenges. Instead, we remain patient, resilient and optimistic, always ready for and seeking out the next opportunity to dance on a wave. And it is the stoke of those brief, yet seemingly perfect moments that keep us engaged and courageous despite everything we must endure to reach them. Stoicism equals stoke. Now, if you're intrigued by stoicism, I recommend the book, the Obstacle is The Way by Ryan Holiday. It's a very concise and modern summary of ancient stoicism and meditations by Marcus Aurelius is the most quoted and popular original text. So thanks for tuning in and if you liked this episode, please share it with a friend. And until next time, keep surfing. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

Are you ready to transform your surfing in 2026 by going all in - completely obsessed, fully immersed, and totally committed? This is the ONLY way to truly improve. If you're feeling stuck in your surf progression or yearning to break through to the next level, this solo episode with host Michael Frampton dives deep into the one mindset shift that separates average surfers from true masters. It’s not just about passion, it’s about short-term obsession to create long-term transformation. Learn why a temporary period of full-blown surfing obsession could be the key to lasting surf progression. Discover practical ways to build your life around surfing without giving up your responsibilities. Get inspired with a clear roadmap for turning 2026 into the year you finally identify not just as someone who surfs, but as a true surfer. Press play now to find out how to make 2026 your breakthrough year of total surf immersion and mastery. Transcript: [00:00:00] Welcome back, or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, education and inspiration for better surfing and a better surfing life. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and it is the end of 20, 25, 10 years this podcast has been going on, and I was just doing a little bit of reflecting back and looking at all of the episodes and interviews I've done and all of the unpublished stuff, all the work that went on behind the scenes. the inspiration that, that, that makes me want to get better at surfing and to share that journey. And if you do want to get better at surfing, to be on that path of mastery. This one essential thing that is paramount, and that is you need to be obsessed with surfing for at least a portion of your surfing life. If you're a listener to this show, you are [00:01:00] already fascinated. With surfing, it's already a passion. You already love surfing, otherwise you would not be listening. But have you been through a stage of your life when you have been completely obsessed with it? That is what it takes to get better at not just surfing, but anything. Kind of more so surfing 'cause it's so complex. It's the playground is always so different. It's also not just a sport, it's so much more than that. So you do need to obsess over surfing for a certain period of time. I remember I was living in London, focused on career working 70 hour weeks miles away from any coastline and. the desire to go surfing and the identity I had as a surfer was still there. And it just got to this point where I was like, man, I think I'm addicted to surfing. And I was ashamed of it and I wanted to deny it. Ironically, [00:02:00] that's why I became a personal trainer. It was because I wanted to learn more about health and fitness and to become a better surfer. And I found myself, just focused on the career side of that. And it ate at me and I tried to push it down and deny it for quite some time, and it was pointless. And it wasn't until a couple of years later, moved to Sydney and was just immersed in, in a rich surf culture and surrounded by good waves, and I just let go of it. I just gave in. It's okay, I, I love surfing so much. I'm just gonna focus on it every single moment outside of work and family, I was either surfing or I was learning about surfing in some way, and it is a time of my life that. I'll never regret it. it wore off a little bit in terms of the fascination [00:03:00] for surfing has never gone away, but that, that strong desire to be obsessed with it, that was eating at me for years once I gave into it and just fully immersed myself and it just faded into. Fascination and surfing passion. But that time that I spent completely obsessed with surfing, informed the rest of my surfing life, and without those, that time spent diving into it, being completely immersed with surfing, there's no way I would've got as good as I got now and I can pull up to a beach and feel confident in almost any conditions. It's such a cool place to be in one's surfing life. So here's my advice to you. As you come into the new year 2026, and you truly want to get better at surfing, make 2026 the year that you [00:04:00] obsess and totally immerse yourself in surfing. Now, that means not only are you going surfing as much as you can, you're committing to going surfing as much as you can. 'cause sometimes you're not gonna feel like it. You might force yourself to put your wetsuit on, but I promise as you're taking your wetsuit off, you won't regret the surf no matter what the conditions. You also, you're gonna drop that Netflix time and you're gonna watch surfing videos and surfing documentaries and YouTube tutorials. You're gonna dive into surfboard technology. The right shape for you. The different types of surfboard designs there are. You're gonna start reading novels written about surfing, adventure and surfing culture. You're going to do breath work training, and you're gonna stop doing heavy weight training and do different training in the gym. That's more conducive to having a fit, agile and fast surfing [00:05:00] body. You're gonna read books on sports psychology instead of books on ancient history. You're going to. Fully immerse yourself in that surfing life and come at it from all angles. Because surfing is such a complex thing and there's so many, there's so many surfers out there that are obsessed to that level. And when you go out into a crowded lineup, you, can't compete with people that have let themselves be such surfers. there's a big difference between someone who surfs. And a surfer, someone who identifies as a surfer. If you want to learn how to read the ocean, negotiate a crowd, choose the right surfboard, work on your technique, all of that stuff. You have to be obsessed with it, not for the rest of your surfing life, but for a time period. For me, it was a couple of years I'm challenging. You do one year, make 2026 the year that you fully immersed [00:06:00] yourself and obsess. And become obsessed with surfing from all angles. Plan your life around the surf forecast. Book a surf trip. Have something to work towards. Step outside your comfort zone. Surf every day or at least every week, even in the middle of winter when the waves are a little bigger and gnarly than you've ever surfed before. Dive in. That is the challenge I put forward to the listeners of this podcast. So over this coming Christmas break and New Year's period, just have a think about it. Is 2026 the year that you really immersed yourself in surfing? And if so, jump on board the Surf Mastery Mini course and you'll learn about the foundational skills that you need. To be able to do that. Not only has my course got those foundational skills of wave, reading and paddling and, popping up [00:07:00] everything that you do between when the board is under your arm and under your feet. That's what we spend 99% of our surfing time doing. That's what my course is about, but also what else you get in the course is a bunch of. Other curated resources. So one of the tips I mentioned was watch YouTube tutorials. Now there's a lot of bad ones out there. There's a lot of YouTube tutorials out there that aren't good. There's a lot of fitness and health advice out there on YouTube that isn't good. So I've curated that stuff and that's included in the Surf Mastery mini course as well. And share this episode with a friend, someone who you wanna take on this 2026 journey of surf immersion. Inspire them, work together, help each other, motivate each other, film each other, get some surf coaching done together, fully immerse yourself. Thanks for tuning into this podcast. I really do appreciate it. Make sure you go to [00:08:00] surf mastery.com to check that course out, as well as all the other free resources available. And until next time, have a very merry Christmas and keep surfing. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

Are you truly reading the wave, or just watching water move? Discover how paying attention to the ocean’s smallest details could completely transform your surfing. If you’ve ever felt stuck in your surf progression, unsure why better technique isn’t getting better results, this episode is your wake-up call. It’s not just about turning sharper or paddling harder, it’s about changing how you see the ocean. Whether you’re an intermediate surfer or decades in, understanding how to focus and read the wave can be the game-changer you’ve been missing. Learn how world-class surfers like Tom Carroll gain a massive edge by spotting secondary swells, backwashes, and subtle refractions that most surfers miss. Discover why your technique won’t matter if you can’t focus and how mindfulness and meditation off the board can level up your performance on it. Shift your entire relationship with surfing by embracing a personal surfing philosophy rooted in joy, longevity, and self-defined progression - not surf industry hype. Press play to learn how changing your mindset and mastering wave reading can unlock deeper flow, better waves, and more fulfilling sessions in any surf condition.

What if the key to mastering any craft - surfing, storytelling, relationships, or even table tennis - lies in simply slowing down and noticing the smallest details? In a fast-paced world that often rewards intensity and output, we easily overlook the quiet power of presence and reflection. Whether you're navigating the chaos of Mavericks or confronting inner narratives, this episode reveals how attention to detail can reshape not just your performance, but your perspective on life itself. Discover why focusing on one small detail - like the placement of your back foot - can dramatically improve your surf sessions and silence self-doubt. Learn how table tennis taught Kyle Thiermann a life-altering lesson about humility, ego, and mastery that spills over into his big wave surfing. Explore how interviewing his parents not only led to his new book but also transformed his relationships and deepened his empathy through the art of asking better questions. Listen now to uncover how Kyle Thiermann’s philosophy of detail and reflection can elevate not just your surfing, but your entire approach to growth and connection. Kyles' - Book:  https://geni.us/onelastqbeforeyougo Website: https://www.kylethiermann.com Insta: https://www.instagram.com/kyle_tman/ Kyle was first on the show in 2018 - episode 27 Kyle Thiermann is a surfer, podcast host, and author of One Last Question Before You Go, a book about why you should interview your parents. Music: Leo Meizoso - Soul Elegance  Michael Frampton: Kyle Thiermann is a writer, podcast host sponsored surfer for Patagonia, and most recently a published author, which is very cool and a book I am excited to talk about. But before we get into the book, I was just looking through the notes of our first podcast back in 2018 and the most important advice that I took away from that interview, you probably don't remember it was quite some time ago, but was basically to slow down and look for the details, which reiterated. Something that Tom Carroll said the year before that he was guest number two on the podcast. And that's what he said. He said, look at the details. 'cause the, what sparked the conversation with Tom was, Tom was, you know, a good 10, 15 years older than me, and we went surfing before I interviewed him. And the waves were maybe waist high, high tide, no water, drawing off the bottom. And here's this old man like doing full roundhouse cutbacks on waves that I couldn't even catch. And I was scratching my head. He's like, I can't even catch these waves. If I do, I'm like pumping, just trying to stay with it. And you're just flowing these beautiful round out, like, what is going on? What am I missing? And he's just like, oh, it's just, you gotta look for the details. You go look for the little ripples and the secondary swells and the back washes and it's like trying to get blood out of a stone, surfing small waves. And if you don't have an eye for the finer details. You'll never do it. So it was really cool to, to have you sort of reiterate it as well. And the question I have that comes off the back of that is, is that still your philosophy in surfing and in other parts of life? How has that changed? How has that evolved? Are you still looking for the details and trying to slow down in surfing? What's been going on since we last spoke? Kyle Thiermann: I love that you checked out our last podcast because, , that's great advice that I should still give myself, uh, younger, wiser, Kyle Thiermann, uh, said that, and it's a very good reminder, uh, particularly, you know, if we want to take this concept of looking at the details specifically to surfing. I find that my worst sessions are when I I'm thinking too broadly about myself as a surfer. As an example, take off on the first wave, , try and hit the lip mistime it fall. All of a sudden this flood, and maybe it was just me, but this like flood of negative narrative enters my brain. Like I was never that good at surfing. I, my best days are behind me. , , this board doesn't work. Like these grand brush strokes of negativity can often, , build just a, a narrative that can ruin a session. , And, what's in common about all of those narratives are that they're too broad, right? That you're thinking about yourself generally. And I think one of the best antidotes to negative self-talk is to look at the details. So, okay, now I'm gonna take off on this next wave and I'm just gonna think about. Where my back foot is placed on my pad. I, I find that that's actually one of the healthiest things for me to think about when I'm taking off on a wave is where is my back foot, because that's the control center of surfing. I grew up, um, actually before I started surfing, started surfing when I was maybe 10, 11 years old. Uh, but before then, I was a really serious skateboarder. And still, you know, I had halfpipes in my backyard growing up. My older brother built this crazy six foot, six foot halfpipe with a seven foot extension. So growing up in Santa Cruz, I was very much a, a, a, a multi-sport athlete and the bad habit of skateboarding. , That can transfer to surfing and it transfer to my surfing is that you put too much weight on your front foot. , 'Cause skateboarding is when, when you're pushing down on a halfpipe, when you know, you, you are more centered over your front foot. Whereas surfing the control center is in the back. So it's something that I've really had to fight my whole life. Um, a bad habit to break. And even still, when I surf, I can just focus on the back pad. Okay, where's my back foot? That's a small detail I can think about throughout a wave. And suddenly, because I'm thinking about that, I can't think about this bigger narrative of how good I am as a surfer, which is not gonna help you improve at all. You can take all those details just focusing on one thing. You know, I think a, a, a great theme of your podcast really is. Breaking apart this vexing craft of surfing into these smaller and smaller bite-sized chunks. And that's how improvement happens, , from an athletic standpoint. And it's how improvement happens from really any task that you want to take on extrapolating that concept out to, , writing, which is, uh, uh, um, what I've been focusing on quite a lot over the last few years, if I'm looking for a story to report, I was just down in Porto Escondido reporting a story for the Surfer's Journal. It's gonna come out in a number of months. All I'm looking for is details. The, the thing that we hate reading about are generalities. The thing we love is, is reading about details. The best writers are always writing with their five senses. What is the, what did the streets smell like? How hot was it that day? What did it actually feel like to be there? And it's, . Quite profound what being more specific with your thoughts can do for happiness. Michael Frampton: Broadly speaking, do you think that just makes you more present in the present moment? Kyle Thiermann: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it also gets you out of your own head if you're just thinking about the tactile feeling of what's around you, the board, the waves. , You're, it's really hard to think about yourself generally, and a lot of, uh, suffering that happens and a lot of just bad sessions, bad surf sessions are the result of you thinking about yourself too much. Michael Frampton: . Usually in the past or pre or future as well. When you, when you feel you get stuck in your head, you're usually thinking you're judging yourself of how others might think of you, which is something that is maybe happened in the past or is about to happen in the future. Kyle Thiermann: Oh yeah. It's just imaginary arguments in our heads. Yeah. All day long. Right. And, and one of the best things about surfing, and the reason I've been addicted to it since I was 10 years old and still do it on a, a practically regular basis, is that it is one of the best ways to get out of our own head, because there's just so much going on, you know, and, and, um, I, one of my favorite things to do is take nons surfers out surfing for their first session because it's like. It's like taking someone on their first acid trip or something, they're like, whoa, I had no idea this thing, this whole thing even existed. They're so outside of this, um, conventional context, you know, the day-to-day on the phone, standing upright on your feet, on solid ground, like we've all experienced that if we take someone surfing that sense of awe that they get, and it, it can be easy to forget that when we be, when surfing becomes a more normalized and habitual thing for us. , And I think it can take more effort to get out of our own way, , and into those little detailed moments. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Is it the only way that you can surf Mavericks? Kyle Thiermann: Well, if you're surfing Mavericks and you are distracted from what's happening right in front of you, you're gonna get yourself in a lot of trouble really quickly. It's very easy for that to happen because a lot of times if you're out surfing any big wave, you know, you might catch only one or two waves that session, right? When you're surfing big waves of any kind, chances are, you know, unless you're Kai Lenny, you're not gonna catch that many waves per session. And as a result, there's a lot of time sitting. Uh, and in that sitting time you can start to daydream, uh, certain narratives. And one of the best things that, that I've found is to just try and stay focused on the tactile feeling of being out there, you know, cold water on the face. How do I feel in my body? Paddle strokes. Like, and, and for that reason, I have a real hard time going out to big waves on a boat and just jumping straight in the lineup because I, I feel that I don't get that warmup period of paddling out through Whitewater and just getting sens sensitized to my body. You know, it's a pretty weird thing that you can go out to a place like Mavs on a boat, paddle 15 strokes, and all of a sudden you're in 50 foot waves. Like that shouldn't happen. Right. You just feel like you're like dropped into a, a completely different atmosphere and uh, yeah. I mean, if I ever take a boat out there, I always make sure to paddle around a little bit, go underwater, do a few breath holes, and just get into the feeling of this new environment. Michael Frampton: , I imagine it. I just had a, a, a, a picture of, you know, when you, you're at a concert and you want to go to the front, your favorite band's about to come on and you want to, and you have to pick a line through just chaos. Pure chaos. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Frampton: And if you, and if you focus on the crowd and the different individuals, and it almost seems like there's no way through when it's just so overwhelming. But if you just try and look for the gaps in the crowd and be polite and make your way through, you end up. Navigating all of this chaos and you achieve your goal. I imagine that's what negotiating a drop at Mavericks is. Like, if you don't choose exactly where the center of your board is going to go, you might get clipped. Do you have to sort of ignore the, the, the chaos in a certain way? Or are you trying to Oh, a hundred Kyle Thiermann: percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. And, uh, you know, I once did a podcast, uh, with Grant Washburn, who's, who's Surfed Mavericks more times than anyone ever. I I think he, he's documented every session. He's been out there more than a thousand times. He was part of the really early crew to be out there, and he's still out there literally every time it breaks. I mean, this guy is one of surfing's most underground s of all time Grant Washburn. And I, I had him on my podcast and was, um, asking him about like, what do you, you know, what tips do you have? And he said, uh, Maverick's is a wave that you gotta cut off at the knees. And I was like, what do you mean by that? He's like, it's a slab. So you can't be on top of the wave when you're, when you are dropping in, you actually have to, like, you wanna be taking off on that wave, like you're cutting it off at the knees. Like taking, if, if Maverick's is a giant, you wanna be dropping in and the knees of that giant and it'll look like you're taking off from the top of it. But that was a really big unlock for me, surfing that wave, because how you fall out there is you, you are not paddling hard enough and you think that you're in the right spot, but really you're on top of the lip and then you're coming down with the lip, right? You need to be lower on a big wave than you think you are, um, to actually make that drop. So that changed where I was looking when I was paddling for waves. Now, if I'm, if I'm paddling, if down the face. The 20, 30 foot wave, I'm looking at the bottom of that wave. So directly in my line of sight, I'm, I'm looking at the trough saying I'm going to get there, like I'm sprint paddling to the bottom of the wave on camera. Then it looks like you're on the top of the wave because that water's sucking up so fast. But if you're not really putting all of your energy down the face, you're gonna be farked. And there was a whole season where I was just, I was going, I was just, um, poking my nose on like every wave. It was a, I had the wrong board and I was not thinking about that directly. And it was like, holy shit, am I one of those wipe out guys? Like, am I like one of those? I was like, I was, and it was fucking with me. I was like, I. I don't feel like I'm a kook. Like there are, there are kooks that surf mavericks who are really just not good surfers, and they yard sail on most waves. They go on and, and shouldn't be out there, but they, whatever, they're gladiators. Like, I'm not gonna tell 'em not to do it. Um, but it's not well respected. Like you're falling on every wave. Something's something should change. You shouldn't be celebrating all of your fucking wipe outs on big waves. Like it's dangerous. It's putting other people in danger. Like you should have a, you should have a pretty good batting average if you're gonna be doing this consistently. So there's this whole season where I was like. Dude, what is wrong with it? Like, I just keep falling. And part of the reason was that I, I was on a board that had two beaked of a nose, so it was poking down on the convex of the wave. But also I was just, I was just focusing on the wrong things. Like I just, I was not looking in the right spot. And it, you know, surfing bigger waves is on the face of it very simple because you are just going straight essentially, or maybe doing a big bottom turn. Um, and you can get lucky, you know, a very average surfer can paddle into it, a huge wave. But for the guys that are really good at it, , there's a, there's a delicate dance and there's so many details that are, that they're taking into account that you are, that you're just not seeing. And it's a, a very, , high performance sport, , under the hood. Michael Frampton: . Did any of those realizations at mavericks inform your small wave surfing? Kyle Thiermann: Hmm, good question. Yeah, I mean, I love talking about small wave surfing because that's what I do all the time and, and people don't really ask me about it, you know, I'm like, well, you get like a dozen sessions a year out in big waves. But the reality is like, I'm just a surfer and I enjoy surfing bigger waves. But, uh, yeah, and small wave surfing is, is just as much of a love for me. , The, the shift happened for me was starting to take notes on my sessions, , and I got this idea from Kai Lenny. He apparently has a notebook and he will jot down notes after all of his. His big wave sessions to try and improve on the last thing that he did. So it was a season, uh, 2021 was arguably the best season ever at Mavericks. Uh, it was just day after day after day of really clean waves. Uh, it was the season that Peter, Mel got his historic barrel out there, and I started taking notes on every session. I, I started noticing that you can sit a little deeper and a little further inside. A lot of people sit, I think, too far out and on the shoulder and just playing different games, going out with more of a strategy and then coming in, whether or not it worked, I would write down notes, um, and, you know, going into the details, right? And then coming out with more of a specific plan. , And then I took that approach to small wave surfing. Now, I'm, I'm not gonna lie and say that I write notes on every small wave session, but, . I found that if I would just go out and, and, and think about one thing, , so for me it was like, okay, I'm gonna try and do less turns on a wave, but not do the, the double bottom turn pump that I so, so horrifically still, uh, have adopted. , I would improve, you know, and I could take that as a win if I would just go out and focus on one thing and then jot down those notes. It felt like it was giving me a stepping stone to improve as a surfer. , I think that that was probably the biggest habit I adopted, that started from big wave surfing that I now apply to small waves. , Yeah, I, I'll I'll let you know if I think of any others, but just the note taking, uh, is something that I've, I've applied across the board. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Which is reflecting, you are just reflecting on the, on what happened. Totally. Kyle Thiermann: And that's a, you know, this is a real, um, big aspect of, of learning generally. There's, there's a huge amount of science around how we don't learn by doing. We learn by doing, then reflecting on doing, on doing. Um, neuroscientists have actually studied that the efficacy in, in learning a new language or, or any skill is just hugely ramped up by doing the thing. And then that night, writing down what you did and then having a good night of sleep. This is Matt Walker who wrote, uh, why We Sleep, really talks about sleep as a, as a superpower. And if you can reflect on what you did that day through a little five minute journal sesh, then go to sleep. Uh, it's a superpower. Right. And, and the problem with, I think one of the biggest problems with smartphones is that we. Cut off this potential for learning because right after we go surf, do a workout, even if it takes two minutes to just reflect on it, all of a sudden we're back on our phones looking at social media, looking at text, and we're not actually integrating what it is that we just did into an embodied skill. Michael Frampton: Yes, you're right. Smartphones have kind of robbed us from that. 'cause I grew up before smartphones and af after a surf, you, you just sort of sit and watch the ocean and drink some water. And I think there's an element of self-reflection and, and or talking about the session with your friends rather than just checking messages and onto the next thing. Kyle Thiermann: Boredom, man. Boredom is, uh, is one of the most powerful emotions we gotta bring back boredom in our culture if we want to, if we wanna move forward. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Like boredom forces a reflection of the details, perhaps. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I mean, it just gives, you know, there's, , these different kinds of consciousnesses, right? That, uh, it's been talked about by Michael Pollan, the writer who, , who wrote, uh, how to Change Your Mind book about psychedelics. And the, the different consciousnesses that he talks about are spotlight consciousness and lantern consciousness. So Spotlight is, I'm focused, I am, , on a wave directing where these thoughts are going. Fully engaged. Lantern consciousness is that soft eyed reflection looking out at the waves, just chilling. . Maybe you see connections, right? That's where metaphor comes in. Lantern consciousness. Like, oh yeah, this is kind of like that, which is kinda like this. And both are really important for the human brain to be engaged in on a daily basis. , Our society is really set up for spotlight consciousness, just that highly caffeinated, white knuckling forward, and we don't, um, really give the value of lantern consciousness that it deserves. Um, you know, that's why, you know, driving is so nice for people, right? You just get to chill out and then you come up with bigger ideas with lantern consciousness, right? You're like, oh yeah, I should start that business. Or maybe this relationship isn't right for me, or, oh, you know what? I'm gonna marry that girl. Like you have big aha moments with lantern consciousness. So, um, it's, it's something that I think like exercise. We should try and make more room for. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think that lanin consciousness only sort of comes about with calmness. You have to be calm and relaxed, get rid of that tunnel vision and be aware of everything. And also, you mentioned driving. I mean, the only, the only way that you can have that lanin consciousness when you're driving is because you have previously had spotlight consciousness on driving and you've learnt to see the details and the surface of the road through concentration and purposely having to do it where you're learning to drive. Right, Kyle Thiermann: right, right. Yeah. Michael Frampton: And then that, and then that becomes a, a bit of a habit and then. You go and teach someone else how to drive and you're like, oh, now I sort of take for granted how good I am at reading the road. Kyle Thiermann: Totally, totally. Yeah. Just, I mean, and, and Tom Carroll probably takes for granted just all of the micro details he's seeing in a wave, you know, that, that you or I might need to focus on still. Right? Uh, there's, um, there's, you might know about this already, but I'll, I'll say it to anyone who's interested. It's, there's these various levels of learning that people talk about, and the first level is unconscious incompetence. So let's take this to surfing. Unconscious incompetence is the kook who doesn't even know he's a kook. Like it's so oblivious to surroundings that has, that he has no idea how bad he even is or, or what a danger he's causing to the lineup. Conscious in incompetence is when this person actually realizes. How bad they are, and that's a step above unconsciousness. We're like, wow, I suck and I'm good enough to know how bad I suck. The next step is conscious competence where all of a sudden this person's been serving for a number of years. They know how to do it, they're getting better at doing it, but they need to think about the act on the water. And I would say that's where I am with my, my surfing. And very rarely am I in, in this the next stage, which is unconscious competence, where you don't even need to think about what you're doing and you can, uh, do it. Most of us are to that place when it comes to driving because we've driven for thousands and thousands of hours through our life. Like most of us are unconsciously competent at driving. But you can take those various spheres of learning, , and extra extrapolate 'em out to anything. It is pretty, , pretty fun to think about. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I guess with maybe with surfing, it's like if every time you drove. The road was different and treacherous and you would kind of be, there's sharks Kyle Thiermann: on the road. Michael Frampton: Yeah. You'd kind of be forced to be not quite so relaxed. And that's kind of, that, that's what makes surfing so unique and fun is it, is is always so, so different. But there are always details you can, you can focus in on. Um, I wanna segue into table tennis. Ooh, I'm ready for this. So I was listening to you interview Derek Sivers and you talked about your little secret, uh, table tennis tutelage. Kyle Thiermann: Yes. And you Michael Frampton: know, Derek Ss lives Kyle Thiermann: in New Zealand now. Yes, he does. In Wellington. Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's amazing. Derek Sivers was, uh, my top podcast guest that I wanted to interview when I started my show. Eight years ago. Michael Frampton: Yep. Kyle Thiermann: And I finally got him. It was a really, really special chance to, to get to sit down with him. And he was just everything I, I hoped he would be in more, you know, when you, when you get a hero on the show, part of you is afraid that there'll be an asshole. And I was very pleasantly surprised at what a, a humble and brilliant guy Derek Sives was. Who, people who don't know. He's a, um, an entrepreneur and, and philosopher has written a number of brilliant books. Michael Frampton: Yes. Yeah. I urge you to go and check out Kyle's interview of Derek and, uh, that will, that will give you a, a taste into Derek's world and his book. Oh, what's it called? How to Have Anything or Anything You Want, anything You Want. Great book. What a cool book. Just not just the concept and. What the content of the book, but just the way it's written. Kyle Thiermann: Oh my gosh. It's so good. Yeah. Uh, hell yes or no is another one, which basically means you should the answer to things. The answer to dec your decision making process should either be a hell yes or a no. Do you wanna go do this thing Hell yes or no? And, and so often we kind of make decisions with this. Yeah, okay. Maybe, but I use that, uh, framework pretty often in my life. But yes, table tennis, uh, do you want me to tell you the story? Yes, please. Okay. So in Santa Cruz where I grew up, , there is, or at least there was for years, a table tennis tournament. . At the end of, of the Cold Water Classic, which is the, the WQS contest that would come to town every year and all the, the big pros would, uh, would come to town and, , I fancy myself are pretty good table, table tennis player as do most people, right. We all, we all think we're pretty good, but, but my friends and I were, were vicious. , And at the end of the cold water classic Ryan Buell, who, who later started Buell Wetsuits, would do a tournament at his house and like all the best surfers would come. Luke Rockhold, who is this UUFC fighter from Santa Cruz, was a really good table tennis player as well. He would come, I think the win the winner of the tournament got a hundred dollars in a bag of weed. Like it was just epic, but like highly competitive. Right. And I, um, met Luke in the semifinals of the tournament one year. And he beat the shit out of me. I mean, this guy's just an incredible athlete with like a six four wingspan. And I was so pissed off that I went home that night and Googled table tennis coaches. And it turns out in Santa Cruz there's this place, it's like in this rec room beside this baseball field, and there are table tennis coaches and players that go down there Tuesday and Thursday night. So I show up at this like underground rec hall. There's 12 ping pong tables laid out. There's people with like sweat bands, short shorts, Nike shoes, a whole bag. Like people won't just bring one paddle, they'll bring a bunch of paddles and the everyone's sweating. It's, this is a like nearly a full contact sport the way these guys are playing. And I went up to one of the coaches and I said, will you teach me your ways? And he said, I will teach you my ways. So I went in there every Tuesday and Thursday for the next year and I didn't tell anyone that I was going there. There are a few, you know, let's just say that I thought I was consciously competent in ping pong when I went in there and very quickly realized that I was still in basically unconscious competence. Like in comparison to legitimate table tennis players. There are just layers to the game. You know, it's like youth being like a local average, good surfer and then having fanning paddle out and you're just like, wow. He goes way faster than any of us. We had no idea. I mean, these guys are on their toes. They, there's just so much strategy involved in essentially tr you know, what they're trying to do is get, get their opponent on their heels because the second you can get your opponent on their heels instead of on their toes, you have them. And the spins off these balls are just going so fast that the further the, the more velocity these spins pick up, the harder it is to, um, to get them. I mean there was this one dude, he was probably like six, six black dude from Trinidad who was like the champion. Oh my God. I mean, he was always on the last table because the, the better you got, like you get, you would get to like meet the, the next best guy. I never made it to even like play him once, but I trained and I got better and I went to ES tournament the next year and smoked the competition. Oh, that's cool. And it was. So fun to not tell anyone about this thing I was getting better at. Hmm. That's the real lesson for me, and it's something that I pretty often will, um, will do now. I mean, I've been working on this book. One last question before you go. For the last three years and really have not told many people that I was doing it, and the reason for that, you know, it's funny, funny you should mention Derek s Siver because he, he does a TED Talk on how you should not talk about your goals. The reason for this being that, the moment I tell you that I'm writing a book, let's say I, I just came up with the idea and I'm like, Hey, I'm writing this book, and you say, oh, congrats man, that sounds so awesome. That gives me a little ping of dopamine before I've even done any work. So it makes you feel like you're further along on your journey than you actually are. So. To, to keep goals tight to your chest, uh, until they're very far along, um, is something that I learned from ping pong and I still do to this day. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah. You mentioned already that, I mean, there's such a difference when you, you think you're a good surfer, or you think that the local ripper at your local break is an amazing surfer, and then a pro comes out and they're surfing. Sometimes it literally feels like they're surfing three times faster than anyone else, to the point where it makes no sense and you think, well, they're not even surfing. They're, they're, they're doing something else. That's what it's like when you see pros play table tennis compared to your mate who kicks your ass all the time. The, this, the ball goes so much faster. They stand so much further back from the Yeah, it's, it's, it looks like a different sport, so yeah. Going through that journey of diving into that world of table tennis and you obviously improved, did it teach you anything? Did you learn any deep philosophical lessons about that table tennis journey that affected you at the rest of your life and in, in particular surfing? Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I, I, um, I will say, you know, a, a, a couple things. I think first that, , it's really healthy as an athlete to cross train in other sports, , and sports that, you know, surfing is a hand, it's, you know, it's, it's very like leg eye coordination, right? And knowing where you want to go on that wave is often, dependent on where you're looking. , Like you gotta look at the part of the lip that you want to hit. , And I think that you, you can develop some really bad habits if you're only surfing and, and, and lessons can come in from other sports. So, I mean, with table tennis, , being crouched, low hand eye coordination, , and really just, just being not very good at something, like being kind of new to it, I think is very healthy for the ego. My least favorite people are the pretty good surfers who never leave their home break and are just grumpy old fucks who don't try anything new in life. And it's just, they're so comfortable and so certain in what they do, and they're not really like pushing it. They're just doing the same thing over and over, and they're pissed off and they're grouchy about the crowd. And we all have these people in our hometowns, and to them I just say like, man, pick up a new sport and try it. Because that feeling of newness and wonder and humility does bleed through to the sport that you know very well. , So I always really, I, I, you know, they say in athletics like, you should be doing your sport a third of the time with people who are worse than you a third of the time with people who are better than you. And a third of the time with people who are you at your same level? That's what's gonna lead to the, the most improvement. And I think you can take that concept out to other sports where all of a sudden you're the lowest on the totem pole and you remember what it's like to suck again, super healthy. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah. What's the difference in the way you, let's say, if you remember the first time you, , entered this table tennis hall, to then maybe the last time just before you went and, uh, and, and played the competition. Did, did you see the ball differently? Like, did you start seeing the way it spins? Like did you, did your eyes learn Oh yeah. To move faster? Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Well, you pick up, um, you pick up tells from your opponent, you know, so for example, if a, what a lot of people will do who are just average table tennis players is they'll hit the ball and then they'll keep the paddle backhand waiting for the next. Shot. And if I see that you are continuing to hold it backhand, I'm gonna hit to your forehand or vice versa. Really good table tennis players will hit it and then they'll bring the paddle straight to the center so they're then ready to go backhand or forehand and I don't know then where they're gonna go. Right? And, and a lot of them, what I'm trying to do is hit it to a place where it's gonna be awkward for them to return, but the second I see that your, um, arm is, is you're just wide open on the forehand. Like, oh, I'm gonna hit it there every time. So you just start to, to notice more details of your opponent. , And I would've seen none of that had this coach not taught me. , I, I also, you know, I think this is just a constant struggle of mine, , but I expect a lot of myself. And if I'm not good at a new thing, pretty immediately I, I get angry. Like I've always been this way. Like I'm, I'm competitive. I think I should be good at stuff. , And when I'm not, it, it, there's a period of time where, you know, when I was younger I would just, I was a little shit. Like I would throw tantrums when I couldn't learn something new. And, and it was, there was a huge amount of, um, you know, the flip side of expecting a lot of yourself is that there's self-loathing as well. Like, it, you, you flip between grandiosity and, and believing in yourself and believing that you can do great things. And then you flip to, I'm the worst ever. I suck. I'm, there's no value that I can bring. And it's just both, both of these are delusions, right? Like none of us, it's, it's never as good as we think it is, and it's never as bad as we think it is. But that is a psychology that I don't think my parents gave me. I don't think I learned it for a minute. I think I was just born with that fucking fire. And it has allowed me to progress really quickly because I will just put my head down and train in secret for a year straight to, to win a stupid bing pong tournament. But there's a lot of, um, just like anger and pain that can come from that. I mean, I, I've never told anyone this, but I remember, I remember going to this ping pong , hall one night and getting my ass kicked so bad that I got back in my car. Started crying, like literally I was alone sitting in my driver's seat and just started crying. And, and it wasn't that like, oh, these guys beat me. It was this idea like, I fucking suck. Like I'm so worthless. I'm such a piece of shit. Like just that hard voice that has, has been with me my whole life. Like, it just comes, comes in when I'm learning a new thing and don't have the competence to do it yet. , But that same thing is also, it can be an engine, right? Like it goes from that to like, I'll fucking see you next week. Let's do this. Like, you know, and that's the engine that I think has allowed me to get pretty good at surfing bigger waves, right? There is a lot of that. You see a lot of real, of good big wave surfers who are. Pretty dark, dark humans. Like they have that, that fuck you attitude like that, you know, it's, it's intense, you know, and they need that attitude to, to match the intensity of the ocean on those days. Um, and I love them, you know, I love them. Like one of my favorite people in the world is Jamie Mitchell, who, you know, he is won the 10 Paddle World Championships. He's an excellent big wave surfer. And like, I just, I'm like, I fucking see you brother. Like we are just intense dudes. Like we have that, that fucking fire. , And you know, for me, a lot of what I, and I think, you know, Jamie would say this too, he's very open about, about that. And we've had good conversations. Like to learn how to hold the knife and, and put a handle on the knife is, has been my work. Like to, to be able to know that you have this sharp edge, but you don't need to constantly be self-flagellating. , That, that's my, you know, life. That's, that's been my life path and my, and my lesson. I think the older I get, the better I am at just talking, speaking kindly to myself as I'm learning a new thing. , Just being a bit more at cruising altitude and, and learning that, okay, that voice is probably never gonna go away, but there are a lot of tools I can learn to not spiral as low when I'm on that process. Michael Frampton: It's fueling, that's the fire. Right. And you gotta learn to channel it, I guess. Yeah, I think so. Kyle Thiermann: I mean, I don't, I, I think that. Anyone who, who does really great things, has a bit of a fire in them. And if you don't see it, it's, it's probably because they've just gotten good at hiding their ambition. Speaker 3: Hmm. Um, Kyle Thiermann: but it's there. It's there. And, and I, I li I'm happy to talk about it. 'cause I think it's just, it's very common for us, you know, to, to feel that like, ugh, like I, I don't like losing, like, I want to get better. I want to improve. , But there's a, a certain amount of that that can also destroy you, you know? And, and, and I don't want to live a life where I'm not feeling the joy of the moment, the joy of surfing. Like I love surfing. It's a beautiful life. I'm, I'm really grateful for all that I get to. Experience. Like, it's just, it's such a, I feel so lucky to have been born into a place where I started surfing. , My whole community, you know, my friends, they're surfers. It's, it's such a, a wonderful, um, thing to get to travel around the world, you know, have friends like you. I'm like, oh, if I go to New Zealand, I'm gonna go see you over there. And in South Africa and Mexico, like, that's not a normal thing that most people get to, you know, enjoy and experience. Like we have a really beautiful group, a community. And, and to constantly be lost in my own neuroses about how good or not good I am, like, man, you're just missing the fucking point. And you're gonna get to the end of your life and think, wow, I, I was not focusing on the right thing. So it is getting better. And I do a lot, , like noticing the details to get outta my own way and just, you know, enjoy the session. Smell the flowers. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. It's on the seaweed. Noticing the details is something you've said a couple of times with the table tennis thing. You like, you're noticing the way that your opponent is holding the bat, and that informs your decision of what, so it's like slowing time down and focusing on the details is what allowed you to get better at table tennis. Kyle Thiermann: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, Michael Frampton: make, make smaller circles. Kyle Thiermann: Right? Michael Frampton: And then when you sat down to interview your father, I mean, that's kind of what you did. You slowed down and you focused in on the details of him. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, uh, man, we're, we're, we're stretching this metaphor, metaphor all the way across life. But yes, I, I just came out with my first book, one last question before you go. It's, uh, a book about how and why to interview your parents before they die. Uh, and, and you know, the, the punchline of it is that. You know, your parents are just people, um, who have had lives long before you were born. And sitting down, stepping outta the role of child and into the role of journalist of interviewer can allow them to really take the floor and tell a few of these great stories before it's too late. Um, you know, if they're surfers. I'm, I'm doing a, a project with Surfer Magazine right now where we get surfers to ask their parents who are also surfers about like some of these classic sessions. Worst Wipe Out Best Barrel Your life. How has surf culture changed since you were. Younger. Um, a a lot of this stuff we just don't know about our parents 'cause we've never taken the time to ask. So the book is, you know, it's a how to manual on this is how you conduct a suc a successful interview. And it's also a memoir, uh, that includes, um, my mom, my dad, my stepdad, you know, a number of conflicts that we went through. But, um, really finding specific questions is one pathway to get great stories out of someone. Right? So, a, you know, what are you, you know, if you're asking what's the meaning of life to your parent, they're probably not gonna give you a great answer. But if you ask, tell me about that classic day in 1973 at Honolulu Bay, uh, when it was just you and two buddies out and they tell that great story, um, it's gonna be gold. You know, you're, you're gonna walk away with some digital family heirlooms that, uh. You'll be happy about. It's a fun thing. It takes about an hour to do, even on the smallest scale, right? You could just bust out your phone on the way to go surfing or, or at ho on the holiday with your parent and, uh, ask 'em some questions. And it can lead to some very unexpected places that can feel oddly psychedelic, um, because it can recontextualize them in your mind. And, and it's just a, you know, and at the end of the day, it's a nice thing to do for them. 'cause I think a lot of parents believe and, and think that their par that their kids don't have much of an interest in them. So it's a, you know, for me that was an unexpected benefit of this, just how much my parents enjoyed being able to tell the stories of their lives. Michael Frampton: Why did you want to interview your father for your podcast in the first place? How did that come about? Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I, it was COVID and I was just, uh, it was COVID and I was scared he was gonna die. You know, we were all really afraid, I think, during COVID, like, whoa, what is this pandemic? Um, how is it gonna affect us, the elderly? And I was forced to reckon with the fact that he wasn't gonna be around forever. So I decided to have him on my podcast. He told some, some epic stories, you know, he's this old documentary filmmaker who goes to the Santa Cruz flea market every weekend and Haggles, and, you know, owns only secondhand gear that he glues together. He has a famous line where he says, you can fix anything with glue duct tape, or a hammer. You know, like, that's his, his wife motto. He's probably gonna put it on his grave. But I, uh. I then released the show and a lot of people reached out. They were like, Hey, I want to interview my own parents. This seems like a fun thing to do. I've done over 400 episodes on my show and was like, well, you know what? There, as you know, Michael, like, there's a skill to this and you do improve your interviewing craft. So I decided that it could be a, um, it could be a book. At first, the first draft was very like, how to manual B, B, B. And then I gave it to some writers that I really respect and they're like, man, you gotta be more personal with this. You need to really let me know what it did for you. This is, yeah, it can be a cool thing, but it can also be intense to sit down with your parents face to face. And a lot of those, you know, we, we so often will, will build resentment, uh, towards our parents and they'll build resentment towards us. And there's this empathy wall that. Grows between us. , And that's, it's so common and it's so painful that the idea of sitting across from mom and dad and really looking them in the eye and asking them questions about their life can feel terrifying. Um, and you know, my, my story is that growing up I had a very close relationship with my mom. She fell prey to a number of conspiracy theories that fractured. Our relationship in various ways, because we no longer saw the same world, right? We, we today still believe very different things about, about the world. Maybe your parents aren't conspiracy theorists, but maybe you disagree with them about politics or parenting style or just how they see you. You know, that it's very common for us to have these ideological fractures. Questions are a way to open that up and, and take a step closer. You know, it's like there is this empathy drug, right, called questions. , But, but it's not a drug, it's a chair and a microphone. , So I found that after taking this year of, of interviewing my parents multiple times, it recontextualized them in my mind. It just added color to, wow. Who was my mom in college. She went to Berkeley during the 1960s when protests were happening, and the psychedelic revolution was fully in vogue. And wow. My dad, he was a, he's traveled the world as a documentary filmmaker. He, he was a magician in high school, paid his way through high school doing magic shows, you know, with tuxedo and top hat, like my stepdad, who, who who you know, has spent the last 20 years pushing conspiracy theory, documentaries onto the world like it. I mean, that, I was angry about that. And yet I didn't wanna lose that relationship. There's, we only have one family, and I, I believe that as adult children, it's kind of on us to take that step forward. Um, we are more well equipped than our parents if we can, you know, and I'm not saying that everyone should interview their parents. I'm not saying it's for everyone. You know, some people, the best course of action is to know, to go no contact. I don't know your parents, but I will say that if it feels possible to open up that crack, do it. You, you really won't regret it. And, and if anything, you're just going to deepen your shades of who these people are. , And it's, man, I mean, it, it's being on the other side of it now, you know, books out. A lot of people are interviewing their parents. Like, I'm really happy I took a personal approach to this story. , You know, it really is, it's a story about having a mom, losing her to conspiracy theories and using the interview process to get her back. But I, I, like, I, I interact with her now and, , I'm not as mad. Like it's a weird. I'm just not, I'm like, wow, I'm, I see you as a person and all of our stumbles and all of our hopes and all of our intents, like, I just have more like empathy for, for what what you are and who you are. And that feels fucking good, man. Like, it feels really, , like I'm more complete in that relationship. , Michael Frampton: Yeah. You under understanding, you understand that? I do. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. And it, and to, it's like that, and that made the whole book worth it for me. It's like, man, it's success. All the, all the success is secondary to that feeling that I, that I get, you know, like I, and same with my dad, you know, and we all, we all, uh, it's around the holidays, right? And how often do we go home? Turn into petulant little teenagers again, right? Because we're like, oh my God, I can't believe you always do this. You're so annoyed. He goes on and on about this, did it like it's, you know, we regress too and become less mature around our parents. I would always get mad at my dad for, you know, he just goes on these like fricking soapbox tirades about like the world and how it's going to hell in a hand basket and dah. I'm just like, oh my God. You know, I always would like get mad at him, right? And, and we recently went on a crabbing trip together up in Northern California. , And I found out I was just more chill around him. I was like, man, you're doing your thing. Like, it just a, it, it affected me less and that was a real win for me to be able to get on the other side of it and be like, wow, I, I was able to just be more chill around you. 'cause I see you as more than my dad. I see you as. As this person who I still really enjoy spending time with. Michael Frampton: Would he articulate anything similar? Like is he aware of the, the change in the relationship dynamics since that process? Kyle Thiermann: I think he would, yeah. Yeah. I think he would. He, he said, you know, this was a really rocked me when I first interviewed him, but he said, uh, he said, you know, I, I don't think you would've asked me any of these questions if we weren't doing an interview. You know, we, like, you're not curious about me. You're not, you've never been curious about me. And, and it made me feel really sad because he was right. I've prided myself on being a good question asker for my whole life. And yet I was not using that skill on the people who mattered most to me. Right. And, and I think that I've developed, um, more of a habit since then of asking how he's doing, asking what he's been up to recently. , The, the quality of question asking should extend beyond. Just a formal interview setting. You know, that's a training session for you. But the real benefit that I hope people get outta the book is to become better question askers generally. Michael Frampton: Hmm, I I think what you said is not right. I don't think that, so he, he may be perceived that you weren't interested. I don't think that's true. 'cause you wouldn't have gone to, you wouldn't have made a point of creating all, all you needed was a way to do it and you're like, okay, if we sit down and record it, then that just somehow for some reason, just sitting down in front of a microphone and the conversation being recorded, that creates the space for a different type of conversation, which allows you to push through the fear you had of maybe asking your dad this question. 'cause you might get the response that you had when you, when you asked a question when you were 13 or whatever. Kyle Thiermann: Right. Or it could be awkward to ask a, you know, so what's, , what failure in life, in early life do you now see as a success? Right? Like, that could be an awkward question to ask in the context of a regular conversation, but it's a great question to ask during an interview. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. I mean, you, you could be right. I mean, I think that the way he felt was that his kids were, were not interested in him. And the way I felt was there's no, or there's, it's harder to really go deep into the stories of someone's life when you're not in a formal interview. Setting. So I, yeah, it, it really did just take that podcast for us to take that next level in. And, , an interview is similar to a conversation, but there are a few key differences. You know, one is that you're really driving it as the interviewer, you're deciding where, where it is that we want to go next. You don't need to necessarily respond to what he's, to what your interview is. E is saying you can just move on to a new subject. , You know, it's, it's similar to conversation, but there are a few key differences that it can allow the person you're sitting down with to, to go deeper. Michael Frampton: Well, it changes the dynamic. You are, you are the interviewer of another human rather than the son of someone, which, Kyle Thiermann: exactly. Michael Frampton: It's so hard to, I, I can see why he might think that. Oh, I can see why any parent might think, oh, my kids aren't really that interested. Well. You are their parent, they're always gonna see you as a parent unless you break that mold. And that's what I really like about what you've done. And I, I bought, I bought my parents. There's a book called, uh, I Want to Mom, I want to Know Your Story. Yeah. I bought, I bought one of those books from my parents years ago, and I don't think they ever opened it. And they certainly didn't fill it in. Yeah, totally. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. I, I bless their hearts to everyone who gets that book. I mean, it's the, the issue that, and, and, and I mean, I, look, I, I hope people enjoy that book and they get value out of it. The issue that I see, , is that you're asking your parents to write down the stories of their lives, which is expecting them to be a great writers who can fill it in with vivid detail. , And b, expecting that that chicken scratch is gonna be meaningful to you later. , For me the, the value of audio and is really the, the, the bullseye here. , You know, my grandmother, um, she was a hundred years old. She passed away recently, and my mom, the day after she died, realized that one of the only recordings that she had of her, her own mother's voice was a, a happy birthday voicemail that she had left her. Like that was one of the few pieces of evidence of the, the tone and resonance of this woman's voice that had ever actually been saved and recorded. Um, and you know, when it comes to my own parents, like it's not just about what it is that they said. It's not just about the stories of their lies, it's how they sounded, you know, voice is. Voice is so different than just words on a page. , So if you can, yeah. I mean, by all means, have them fill out the stories on, on a piece of paper, but really, you know, pull out your phone, use the voice memos app, or get pro microphones and, and get them to tell the stories into a microphone, because that's what, um, there's just a, a, a, a resonance and warmth that I think can come from audio. Michael Frampton: Do you think that those com the con, let's say I interview my mom and I record it now, she certainly wouldn't be happy with me, , posting that on the podcast, but she might be open to me sharing it with my siblings and maybe a cousin. Is that something that you recommend, like sharing the interview or is it a personal thing? Yeah. Kyle Thiermann: Well, we live in a time where it's easier than ever to record. And these digital fairly air digital family heirlooms can be passed down through the generations. There's never been a time in history where it's as easy to record a piece of media and potentially have a go and exist on for 10,000 years. You know, it's pretty amazing that we could spend an hour and it could be focused purely on your family history. What do you know about my great-grandfather? Um, where did we come from? Just to be the bearer of that, , story and then share that with your family is one way to go about the interview. Just really as a, a product of posterity, , I think it's really important to ask the whoever it is that you're interviewing permission, Hey, can I share this publicly? Can I share it with the family? But if they do, , save those recordings, make sure other people know where those recordings are. . You know, write along with all your passwords to your accounts and just take the time to do it. You know, it's, it's, it's a little bit like writing a will, you know, it's something like people don't want to take the time to do, but then when you don't, it can really screw things up. And there's a lot of unknowns that are just left to the rest of the family. , And I don't wanna make it seem that it's sound like it's a, a hard thing to do, or just sad. Like it can be a, a ton of fun to get your parents' stories as well. , But the first thing I recommend doing in the book is just to set the date and the rest will follow. I, my mom, , is really good about this actually. She broke her hip a number of years ago and her left hip and femur. And, and right after she realized that she really did not have her things in order. So she created this something called a gravity pack, which was like passwords to her accounts, her will, uh, music that touched her photographs from her life. . Family history and then also, , these audio recordings will go in there. So it's, she's very organized and, , ha has done this work that is gonna save her kids quite a lot of, uh, pain later on Michael Frampton: and have Kyle Thiermann: Precious, my dad, he's, my dad's more of a, he's more of a flea market junk guy, and we're gonna have a lot to deal with after he dies. But, , you know, bless his heart, we'll do it. Michael Frampton: No, it's, it's a really cool concept, man, and it's, it's such a cool, such a cool idea for a book and obviously you want to inspire other people to do it and give them guidelines on how to do it. You've obviously thought about this a lot, do you have a framework or a method perhaps, or some ideas in which ways , how people can come up with original questions? Kyle Thiermann: Sure. Absolutely. And I really recommend that people take the time to come up with original questions. Every chapter in One last question before you go is a question, say, every chapter title is a question. There's bonus questions at the end, but I also say that the best questions are gonna be original to your parents' lives. They're not gonna be general, you know, what's your favorite band? Or, you know, who, who is your high school crut? Like, it, it should be specific to what made you want to take that trip to Indonesia when you were 19. Tell me about that moment. So,, if you're having a question asking session. I recommend breaking your parents' lives up into four chunks. So this could be childhood, early adult, , late adult, and you know, where they are now. , Just breaking it up into, , you know, 15 year chunks. And then try and write five questions under each of those chunks, right? Get into the details, break it into smaller circles. Um, and if you'd spend 20 minutes breaking your parents' lives into four chunks, asking specifics about what was going on at each of those moments, , you will come up with a bunch of questions. Another thing that I recommend when flexing this muscle is once your parents agree to the interview, get them to send you photographs from their lives, and then you can use those photographs as prompts to get them to tell stories. Ultimately, what you want out of your, your mom or dad is to. Get them to tell stories and stories will come from a photograph. You can literally slide it across the table and say, tell me the story of this photograph. , We often speak in generalities. , And that doesn't do much for, for good audio. What you want are specific stories where they're bringing you into that situation. , So photographs breaking and then breaking your, , parents' lives into four chunks are two great tips. And then the third is, , get them to talk about their decision making process. So, , it's not just what college did you go to? It's like, what made you want to go to that school? What, why, what? And, and you're getting now into their head and they're like, well, you know, I wanted to go here, but I decided to go here 'cause I had this crush on this guy. And boom, all of a sudden you're in a story. . This is what Charles duh Higg the author of, , a number of books like The Power of Habit Super Communicators, called Deep Questions. Don't Just Ask about the Facts of Their Lives. Ask how they feel about their lives. And if you do that, , you will conduct a pretty good interview. , Those are the tips. Michael Frampton: Yeah. You gotta get into the details. Kyle Thiermann: Yes. Bam. Michael Frampton: The ever finer details. . Well, Kyle, thank you so much for your time. The book is called one last question before you Go. Kyle Thiermann: When does it come out? It is out right now. Michael Frampton: It is available on Amazon, I'm assuming? Yes, it is. Awesome. Your website is kyle chairman.com. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, that's probably the best way to find me. And, uh, feel free to reach out if you, uh, if you do end up interviewing your parents, I'd love to hear from any of you listeners out there, how it goes, what you find. I find that, that, you know, writing a book is just the start of a conversation. It's not the end. Yeah. So I wanna, I'm putting this out in the world, but I am very much looking forward to hearing how it's received and what people do with it. Michael Frampton: Yeah, I I'm sure you will hear lots. It's pretty cool. And, uh, Kyle also has a, is it nearly, you've done like over 400 episodes of your podcast? How many now? Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that we, I, I am at 400 right now. Wow. Michael Frampton: Yeah. We just did 400. That's, that, that's impressive. So I urge everyone to go and listen to, it's very eclectic. Like there is a lot of surfing stuff in there, but there's also just a lot of life stuff. And, , some really cool interviews, a great podcast to, to cherry pick and dive in. I especially like the one with Derek Sivers. I'm a big fan of Derek Sz, , as well. He's such a unique, well thought out human and, uh, it's a great interview. , Gosh, Kyle, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. , There will be links to everything, Kyle podcast book stuff in the show notes so you can, you don't have to write this down now, you can go and click, and dive into Kyle's world. Thank you, Kyle. Kyle Thiermann: Thank you Michael. 130 How Details Transform Surfing, Self-Talk & Relationships with Kyle Thiermann The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfe - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

What if the key to unlocking your best surfing isn’t how you ride a wave - but how you read the ocean before you even paddle for it? Whether you're a seasoned surfer or just stepping up to steeper waves, too many of us overlook the 99% of surfing that happens off the board. In this eye-opening episode, elite surf coach Matt Scorringe shares why ocean knowledge - not tricks or turns - is the hidden edge that separates good surfers from great ones. If you’ve ever felt lost in the lineup, struggled with wave selection, or wondered how top surfers always seem to be in the right spot, this conversation is for you. Discover the missing piece in most surf coaching: how reading the ocean gives you faster decision-making, greater confidence, and better waves. Learn how to turn crowded lineups into a game of strategy, not frustration, using Matt’s unique “first line of defense” approach. Explore how treating the ocean like a playground—not a proving ground - can unlock more joy, progression, and long-term success in your surfing journey. Hit play now to learn how rethinking your approach to wave reading and lineup dynamics can instantly elevate your surfing experience. https://www.theartofsurfing.com Use Discount Code: "surfmastery25" for 25% discount on Matts Academy and Remote coaching program. Matts Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattyscorringe/?hl=en Transcript: Michael Frampton: yeah, it is. I actually think that most surf courses miss the mark anyway because 99% of your time when you are surfing is not surfing. You are, you're literally paddling around or sitting there reading the ocean, trying to stay focused on the horizon, trying to decipher you look at this little sliver of ocean. Are you gonna paddle over there to get the wave off the crowd or are you gonna paddle over there? Do you want that wave? What's the wind doing? How many swells are in the water? Like all that stuff that makes you a great surfer. People, people don't focus on it. So I actually, I actually released a course that's all about how to read waves. There's nothing Yeah. To do with basically what happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet. Yeah. Because once you're on to your feet, that's been done to death. And yeah. I wanna segue that into what, in terms of like reading the ocean and reading water, , do you coach people on some of your elites on that sort of stuff? Do you spend much time on it? What are your thoughts? Matt Scorringe : Yeah, absolutely. I mean, with regards to like more high performance athletes that I train, you know, there's a clear, difference between those that have, that really do and those that don't. So again, once on feet, both equally fantastic surfers, but one just has a higher level of ocean knowledge and understanding and, and able to read and, you know, you run. Drill after drill on scenario after scenario and pressure situation after pressure situation and all of that ocean knowledge just, um, you know, means obviously they're gonna read the ocean better, but their confidence is higher and their decision making processes are faster because of the nuances that they're picking up and processing and, and making decisions on to get those waves that go underneath for that wave that didn't look like maybe an opportunity to the other surfer. Uh, and then if you drop it down to like more of my everyday clientele, uh, and a lot of my online clientele with, you know, the, the academy membership or my remote coaching, um, a massive part of what I try and get them to do is actually film more of them. With, uh, a camera that's like not on wave, just them roaming the ocean and, and looking to catch waves. So, you know, zoom it out, push record and let it sit there and have your GPS tracker. And it's amazing what learnings come from that, that you can just pick up, um, that you wouldn't otherwise. And yeah, it's a huge, huge pillar that is really overlooked in most coaching scenarios. Uh, and if you've got someone on a one on one lesson for an hour and a half, like there's only so much you can do in that time, right? Like, hey, this is the day's conditions, this is where the rip is, this is the kind of, you know, the period. And, um, this is kind of where the bank is. , And you can assess what you, you might want to in that moment, but really you're getting such a small snapshot of the, their, their decision making and their, their ocean knowledge. , So I, I really enjoy having more of a longer. Time with my remote coaching clientele to actually assess that, give them, you know, training drills and strategies and games. I, I call them games to play, and then they can go out and start to do their own assessments of those outcomes. And that's really my ultimate goal is to teach self-assessment. , And to play with different, different, uh, strategies in the ocean to, to learn, you know, I mean, when we're kids, we learn about the ocean through play. Like we're jumping in the shore break, we're swimming in the rip, we're, you know, boogie boarding along closeouts with the boys and you know, that's where you understand all of those, those things that the ocean, uh, teach you. Michael Frampton: , Yeah. Most great surfers had that childhood early on where they, yeah, there was no pressure to even stand up on a surfboard. It's just, just messing around in the ocean. Yeah, makes me think of Wingnut. I interviewed Wingnut a few years ago and he didn't start surfing till he was 17, and I thought that that's such a unique case. Someone's starting surfing so late and becoming so good at it. That didn't make sense to me. I almost didn't believe him. But then he told me he had been body surfing since he was five, and I was like, ah, of course. Yeah, you've got already got the wave, the wave knowledge, the, the way you read water is already there. That's, that's your fundamental school. You're comfortable in the ocean. 'cause surfing, when you think about it, one, once you're on your feet, it's not actually that hard. I mean, look at, look at someone like OIE who barely even, and John, John too. They barely move their bodies at all, right? Yeah, yeah. Kelly's unique. He moves his body all over the place. But someone like AKI is just that, that those subtle movements of changes of balance and direction and it's amazing how you technically, you could be really stiff and inflexible. And not move that much and still be a great surfer, but only if you can stand, get to your feet in the right part of the wave on a good wave with, and then have good timing. And it all essentially comes from reading, reading the ocean and being comfortable in the ocean. Matt Scorringe : Yeah, no, I, I, I agree. I mean, really when you distill, uh, technical surfing on a wave, and sometimes, you know, I, with the, the profession I'm in and other coaches you are sort of, do people not see how simple this technical piece is that they're missing? Right. And obviously we have trained eyes, so, , I say that respectfully or lightly, that you're like, it's amazing. People still will look at their own footage and not identify, Hey, your back arm is, you know, really low when you swing through your twist. So if we can get that higher, it's gonna open up your chest rotation. So there's those things technically. , But they're so much more easier and obvious to really see for anyone. And once you teach them that they can see it themselves and they see it in other surfers., But the ocean is, it's, you know, easy to say to an adult or a late starting client, you need to have had all this experience as a kid, right? And you haven't, so it's gonna be hard. And, and that's, that's really demotivating for them. So, you know, I try to change it around to, uh, you have to pretend you're a kid again. You have to treat the ocean like a playground, and you need to be, you know, very wasteful and okay with falling and failure in the process of learning how the ocean moves, uh, obviously within a realm of safety and don't sort of paddle out to, um, you know, a, a big reef break and sort of just muck around if it's, it's beyond your sort of capabilities, but at your local, at, at your, your local beach break or just learning an environment. , It's all about, yeah, in my opinion, having. Like, I've got these strategies I use to teach them how to, you know, understand crowd movement too, and manage, , you know, a, a way to kind of work around that and option A, B, C, D, but also just treat it like a game. So if option a's not working, learn from it, move to B and so on, and be wasteful of that session when it's crowded. Like, okay, it's crowded anyway, so if I get a couple, that's gonna be a great day. So I might as well have a little trial and error of this strategy. Uh, let's see if this works. I mean, I do it myself all the time, like when I travel and I, I surf as a point a lot or padang when I'm in Bali. , You know, I'm literally going through my strategies and trying, and some days strategy A will just work straight away and I'm, I'm on and I think, oh, how good's this? Like, you know, I found a little little gap in the, in the, the chaos out here. And then other days, you know, I get to strategy C or D before I'm like, wow, that's. That those other ones really aren't working today. Like there's five or 6, 7, 8, 10, 15 other people playing the same game as me right now. I need, I need to, I need to shift, you know, and I need to try something different. And sometimes none of them work too, but you know, you, you gotta almost smile and have fun with it in those moments. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's, I mean, that's great advice for anyone starting surfing is just play. Just don't put pressure on yourself to perform at all. It's really important. But you also mentioned crowd stuff, which segues into something else I wanted to discuss, which is etiquette. Any of those strategies you mentioned,, consider etiquette. What are your thoughts on etiquette? , Have you seen any of the recent, um, social media stuff? I mean, get stabbed at an article recently about kooks and Barley and Surfline did a little thing about being closest to the peak and there's been a, a few Instagram, , influences, you know, chatting about it. And I interviewed Holly Beck about it, , a couple of weeks ago as well. So what are your thoughts on et. Matt Scorringe : Well, I mean, at the core of etiquette, that comes down to, , surfing with respect for others. Right? And, and so my thoughts on etiquette is it needs, there needs to be etiquette. , What are the rules? And, and, and, you know, what, what dictates the right way to do it. , I know it's gonna start with an answer that sounds like top level, , but it is so dependent on situation, , the wave type, the level of the surface. So a lot of the strategies I teach clients, , start with clearly assessment, you know, tools to assess what a pack is doing. , One of the, one of the more effective ones is I what I call identifying the first line of defense. So I kind of have these sort of analogies that tie into war because when you go out there sometimes it's like you're going into a fight or into war. , And so who are those sort of soldiers, that first line of defense that they're trying to lock down? The, the peak or the, you know, the, the, the main takeoff spot and how many of them are there, are they working in synergy, you know, like a local spot where they're like clearly clustering together to, to kind of, , surround that, that, that best spot? Or is it a spot like, , you know, being in, or again, maybe deserts where, you know, there's just a lot of people trying their own individual plan in that moment. And so, you know, allowing these first line of defense people to have that kind of, authority that they want to have out there. , But playing underneath them and, and almost using that against them, , is something that, you know, you can do. And I know it's kind of hard to articulate just over a conversation, but when you have modules and you're sort of showing examples, , I know myself, I use. At Padang a lot just sitting, you know, slightly under all those sort of main, main key guys. Now clearly if there's another 30 guys, like maybe with the same idea, then that secondary peak gets, gets packed. But, , there's these ways in which you can, you can again try option A, option B, um, but often, you know, just being underneath and, and allowing those other surfers to have that, that, , pecking order that they're trying to, they're trying to have, , you can, you can slot in underneath and, and still get great double ups or, you know, get one that's missed. Or identifying that this guy's a local, that's an older guy that gets a lot of respect and lots of people are gonna pull back, but he's not got a good paddle. I've had so many waves just. Double checking those guys. And you know, they just don't quite get it when like, sometimes it does, it's like 30 guys have pulled back 'cause they're like, oh, it's, it's such and such, you know, we don't wanna push his section down, but you are just over enough that you are not gonna do that. And you might be able to squeak in when 30 guys pull back and he just takes off too late or doesn't quite make the drop., So yeah, identifying those, those little gaps is key. , Back to etiquette though, with that personally, , I'm non-confrontational in my approach to surfing. Like, I've never enjoyed an argument. I've never enjoyed trying to, , paddle up to someone and educate them on the environment unless they're being dangerous. , The worst environments I've found myself in my life have been of recent w with my own sons teaching them to surf. Uh, so being out in lineups like. Ulus when it's only two to three foot high tide and you just have all these uneducated surfers. Uh, and I don't wanna put a label on level, I'm just uneducated on, on movement and just priority and, you know, just fairness, like, and safety, just, uh, you know, and so you're, you're literally out there with your son. And I've been in the most confrontational arguments of recent, purely when I feel obligated to try and tune someone about how dangerous they're being when not just my kids, but other kids are out in the lineup and, you know, they don't have the, the physical capability or skillset. , Or knowledge yet to make the right decision. , They're learning, they're trying to get out the way, but maybe they're just not gonna be able to. And yeah, just seeing so much, um, carnage, clearly, uh, it's been really a, a, a challenging journey at times because, you know, you don't see all of that kind of stuff when you surf better breaks with higher level surfers. , It, it's really gone to the dogs and I, you know, I grew up in that environment once upon a time, but it's so much worse now than it was in were kids. I feel for any learner, adult, you know, female long boarder trying to get amongst that and, and cash their wave, you know, it's just, uh, it's, it's a really toxic environment now. Those sorts of mainstream breaks,, you know, you can go through a list of Malibu and snappers and, you know, all around the world, right? It's, it's just so many surfers now. So, , yeah. It's, it's, it's a, it's an open-ended question. Well, Michael Frampton: I think it's on them. Let's use Ulus as an example. It's, it's a high performance wave that gets really good, but it's also somewhat accessible and that's its downfall. Whereas you can, you can get away with, as long as you're physically able to walk down the stairs and you have the, uh, sometimes it's just pure ignorance to negotiate the keyhole. I've seen some close calls that I just, I just dumbfounded. I remember the first time I surfed Ulus when it was, you know, solid five foot and I was just, I couldn't believe how. Novice of a surfer had managed to get out there and get in the way of everyone. And I was on edge going, I do not wanna touch the reef. I don't want get in anyone's way. And I'm like, my heart was racing. And there's, there's people out there, there's people whistling in the, that they've caught the, they've gone too far, they're getting dragged around onto the inside. There's people on the cliff whistling at them. There's people walking up the stairs covered in blood 'cause they've hit the reef. And it's just like, why, why would you go to Atu? Like you, you're an idiot. You should be at a beach break with other learners and learning that. So I think it's a almost a failing some ways in surf culture not to educate these people. And I get it, you know, your barley tourism is, they want the the people to go there. But at the same time it's like, man, my kid's been surfing for, for five years. He's ready to. Approach somewhere like inside Ulus. But you, you're in the way. You're literally, they, they are the unethical ones with no etiquette. Yeah. Because they're in the wrong place. And the same thing, you've got surf coaches pushing everyone into Malibu. First point when you know the good surfers that have waited for an hour, they wanna do a couple of cutbacks on the inside. They want, don't want to give way to a soft top. You should be at zoomer learning. So I think a lot of these, a lot of the stuff. It's coming from these adult learners who just think they're entitled and they don't have to go through the, the process in surfing. It's like, oh no, it's my turn. I've been waiting for a wave. Well, it's not, it's not quite that simple. And I think it comes back to what you said, which is, it's, it's a safety issue really. You've got so many, yeah, so many amateur surfers getting in people's way. People have to not hit you and then they put themselves in a bad position to get cut on a reef maybe, or essentially you, you're gonna end up hurting yourself or you're a drain on the, on the health system. And it, it's, yeah, it's kind of a mess. Matt Scorringe : I think it's just, you know, that ignorance is bliss for a lot of them, right? They just don't know what they don't know. And so making their way out at ulu's on high tide and not realizing the tide's on the way out, and they're gonna have reef to deal with on the way in, and, you know, they find themselves in these situations, but, , they're unaware and so. There's, there's not any fear around it for them at that point. And they, they get out there and they're just all of a sudden in the way, and it has it, and you, you multiply that by 30 or 50 of those people in, in a situation and, and you've got a lot of, , yeah, you've got a lot of potential, you know, trouble that could present itself. And, and carnage, I mean, and every, any given day, a lot of these spots, there's, there's a lot of, you know, incidences where people are getting hurt and hurt and cut and, um, some, you know, the amount of close calls, you know, would be, would be crazy. , I, I find that it's, you know, without labeling. The countries, there's certainly more high educated countries based on the environment that you grow up in. Even if you're a late adult starter in a country like Australia that has just a super high surfing iq, uh, and knowledge, you're gonna get tuned really quickly. You're gonna be taught, you know, in in, in either a good way or a bad way, but you're gonna learn a little bit of the understanding of the, the way that, you know, etiquette and, and the world works. And each break is different and each coastline and so on. But you're gonna have this kind of collectively base level, general theme through most of Australia where yeah, they, they're switched on. And I mean, the amount of unbelievable ocean knowledge wave readers that I've come to meet from Australia, you know, particularly like Hawaii for sure too, that goes without saying with their. Of course, you know, the, the, the larger swell and the big waves and what they're exposed to, but I'm talking nuances and just, and crappy wound bond slop as well. You know, those eyes that they have for all of that and the gaps in crowds because they grow up in it and then they can do it in a way that, like cheeky maybe, but not completely disrespectful. , And you know, obviously if you're out snapper, there's everything under the sun in terms of how people are doing it, but the best at doing it become, it becomes an art form of how they operate within a crowd with everyone from learner groms to learner adults, right through to elite, right? And everything in between. So, , personally like I, I grew up on a, a very highly, um, localized break in New Zealand. Now, when I say localized, it wasn't. By fist. It was localized. It was by village. And so the takeoff zone was very tight. It's, uh, you know, like a, a long, uh, left hand sandbar for anyone listening. , And I know most of the best surfers in New Zealand just don't go surf it and still don't. , And when they'll come through town and be like, come surf the bar, you know, and they'll be like, oh, we're just gonna go around to the beachy, like hate surfing out there. And. It was more because of the way it got locked down by the elders rather than, you know, um, a pack of younger tough guys sort of dominating it through force. And so I learned really quick this kind of hierarchy system of respect and, and doing your due, like you had to pay your dues. You had to start down the point, you worked your way up and you know, you had to sit under your outs and you could pick up the double ups. But back then they were all riding like longer boards and weren't knifing double ups into the barrel. So we grew up as that first generation wanting those waves and we actually were getting the better waves, but they were getting the taller ways that would kind of hit the bank and run. We were getting the like double up aka like tubes and they didn't realize we were on the better ones 'cause it was a generational change of equipment and so on. But what we learned was, um, yeah, how to, how to work within that environment. How to work your way up. Um. A hundred percent I've, I paddle would've paddled past a lot of people in my time sitting down the point and, you know, that's on my mind. But when I get to the top, I'm not just trying to get the next wave and the next wave and the next wave. It's like working your way in and waiting your turn. And um, you know, there's days we're all guilty as sins that it's good and, and you get a bit in rhythm and greedy and, and you know, you're kind of aware of you, you, you've, you're getting a few too many. But like at the end of the day, uh, there is a like real clear understanding out there. And I know a lot of people don't like that, that aren't from there, but what I think they don't like about it is there's not actually anyone kind of telling anyone to, you know, if off or to like get down to point or like just being like, you know, obviously aggressive assholes. I mean, it can happen, can happen. But most of the time, and what's more frustrating is just this kind of like, yeah, there, there's this kind of collective creating,. An environment that has to be respected. And so what I kind of gleaned from that with my travels was identifying that in other locations and knowing when like, oh, there's a clear and obvious like village of people here that have got a system. And identifying that and trying to fit into that system. And , I know a lot of your guests have said like, being a good surfer helps like that, that goes without saying. Like, if you can get into the peak eventually and, and get a good wave and you knife it and you get spat out down the line and you do a good turn, , it helps, like, it helps people give you respect. If you go over the falls three times, you're done right one time, you're probably done. So unfortunately, for those that are listening that are, , maybe not at a, a higher level and they're at a lower level, like you have to really look yourself in the mirror and, and be honest with yourself whether you can surf that way from the top. And if you've got the skill set to do so and. I'm not saying that doesn't mean you shouldn't go have the right as a human being to go up there and try, but if you don't make it once or twice like you will, you will be done. You know? And that's, I think, fair enough in any sport. Like you only get so many shots at something before, okay. You know, , you're not, you're not achieving this ultimate goal here of, you know, scoring the goal for, for a basketball team. Like, we're gonna sub you off, you know? And so there is just an understanding of where you might fit into that system. . And just to kind of wrap up my point, I also go to breaks where I can see there is no obvious system and it is a free for all and there is no hierarchy, you know, sort of village kind of operation going on here. And then it's like, okay, cool, like now we can kind of play a little bit more, , you know, hungrier game here, but still like, where can I slot in and not be an absolute prick? , But you know what, I'm not going to just keep leading these guys pedal past me either. Like I'm gonna play the game. Um, and so, I dunno, I feel like, you know, a lot of my friends that grew up on this wave, we've, we developed an art to particularly a couple of my mates. They're just so good at getting waves in any lineup, like the most crowded lineups that. Are the exception of a wave like chop or pipeline or, you know, super heavy waves of constant with a clear and obvious gnarly local system. , But all the free for all waves around the world, you know, that just have been kind of overrun by tourism and yeah. And then I see other really good surfers from different environments have grown up that really struggle 'cause they just had like a more simple, less complex environment to, Michael Frampton: to learn that in. Mm. Yeah. It's a big subject. And that will come, I mean, what you just mentioned there, that comes down to reading, like, like you sitting in a little bit from the pack to catch the double up, the double ups at Padang, you can only do that because if you see a set coming for them, you're gonna have to see it either before them or at the same time as them in order to paddle outta their way. Right. Mm. In order to order to go back to get the double ups on the inside. They don't, and they don't care if you're getting those waves as long as you stay out of their way, but you get in their way, your little game is over. So you have to be an expert at reading and predicting waves in order to do that. Therefore, you are a better surfer. So you are moving, I think surf lineups, it is a hierarchy of competence. There is no way around that. There's, I agree. Each surf break has its own, uh, representation of eth uh, of, um, etiquette, let's say at different times of the day, different swells. And when we are entering the water, we cannot, as surfers, we cannot expect there to be one rule of etiquette for every surf break in the world. It's ridiculous. Yeah. If you, if you go surfing and you feel like everyone else in the water has no etiquette, you are the one in the wrong place. You are out. Go, go surf somewhere else. Go and practice what you're doing somewhere else. Jump on a plane. There are plenty of learner friendly areas in the world now where you can go and take turns and be on soft tops and catch gentle waves. There's, there's plenty of places to go and learn and practice and, and get your reps in and surfing and that way I think it's ridiculous to go out to ATU and expect to people to be, to have etiquette and, and, and to give you your turn. It's, it is, it is crazy. So it comes back to that whole awareness thing, right? Not only are you good surfers, not only if you wanna travel, especially, not only do you have to be good at reading the ocean and waves and stuff, you have to be good at reading the crowd and the surf culture of the local environ. A hundred percent. I Matt Scorringe : think that's a huge piece. Yeah. And just to kind of elaborate on, just as an example, Pang, because I mean, pang's such a perfect wave. I mean, there's a lot of people that might be listening and think, oh, well that's a very. Common plan B. , I mean, I've had sessions out there. I've sat out there for two hours and had to paddle in and not caught away, you know, so I'm not saying it always works. And I've had sessions where it's, um, being only a handful of locals and maybe a couple of them I know well, and they're like, oh, go this one man, you know, and you, you're up, you, you, you go, you go. And then I've had times where they've literally paddled past me 15 times and not looked you in the eye. 'cause they don't want to acknowledge you and then have to maybe think about giving you a wave when it's really busy. They're like, right, it's busy, it's pumping panang, I'm locking in with the rest of the local boys. It's our turn. And you just gotta sit back and respect that. You know, like it's, it's the way it is. Like their waves have been overrun by tourists and it's, it's one of those pumping days and there's. There's 30 guys like me with the same level and, and idea, and then there's 30 guys underneath me or girls with a, a different idea and a different level. And, and there's all that, you know, and so you've got to, yeah, you've gotta just kind of understand that. Um, and I know I do it, like I, I know when I surf sun breaks that I know it's gonna be, uh, it's gonna be a real game that I'm playing the whole session. I actually don't like going surfing with friends out there. You know, I like to just strike a couple of waves around Bali. , Sorry, Indo now on my own. Because if I go with even just two mates, you know, I'm not gonna go with a huge pack. I have to consider them in my game of respect. Like if I do my thing and I know they haven't had one for a while. Like my nature is to be like, of course I'm gonna be like, go, go, go. You know, I'm not, , you know, I can't kind of, at the end of the day be that kind of dog eat dog, but then that mucks you up and they're kind of like, there's three guys between you and them and you've kind, you kind of like, it becomes this thing where like it's actually a solo pursuit is easier in an environment that it's not your environment like you are, you're in someone else's environment or one of those free for all waves and like there are waves around, , the world that has no. Massive true. Like it's, let's say local village law, but there's certainly the couple of locals, handful locals. Um, there's certainly those that have traveled there since 1970 something and camp there all the time. So there's still some system, you know, even though there's maybe no true locals or there's no true, you're an expat, you, how can you call yourself a local? Well, you know, that person has surfed there for 30 years and knows everyone by name has done this time, like respect due. You know? So I like to find out about those stories and get to know people and, and see where people slot in to, , a break if I have enough time. Sometimes you're just passing through for a surf and you've got one surf and you've just gotta try and make sense of it a a little faster. , But yeah, I think too many people just don't spend enough time trying to understand what the environment they're really operating in and just get caught up in the pure like. You are paddling past me. It's my turn. I'm deepest to the peak. All these kind of top level rules of surfing that don't apply at every break, specifically based on the hierarchy of level as well. Yeah, Michael Frampton: yeah, I totally agree. I think they do, they obviously do apply when you think, when you see surfing as a sport and in competition there's priority rules and stuff. But which segue into is surfing an art or a sport. I think if you approach it as more of an art, it gives you a lot more leeway. You should of break the rules of sport and there's more nuance to, to read the ocean and, and surf breaks as more and like, like you said before is I want you're mentioning uh, some of your friends that catch waves. They're so good at it. It's like an art form. Um, and I know we did touch on this question way back in, uh, episode five back in 2015, uh, 'cause of the name of your website and businesses, the Art of Surfing. But I'm gonna. Come back to you. I've been talk, been talking about this question a bit with recently, again, sort of revisiting it. So I'm gonna ask you again. Is surfing an art or a sport? Mm-hmm. Matt Scorringe : Well, for me it's 100% an art. Like that goes without saying. I mean, the whole reason I did name the business the art of surfing because was because that, that's, you know, just at the core of it, it's an art form and it's an art form that has been turned into a sport for those that want to play it in a sport format. That's how I see it. And so, you know, we're, we're, we're grabbing something and we're going, this art form's beautiful. You know, like, what a cool thing. Like look how he does it. Look how she does it, look how different she's doing it to him. , But look, why don't we. Create some parameters here and see if we can create some sort of sport. Right. And you know, it, it's evolved and we all love the sport. Like, you know, groms love to compete. I've loved to compete. I love to watch competition. I love to follow the WSL. I love the idea of having a world champion. I, you know, we, we, we want to create some form of sport within it that we can all be proud to be a part of and follow. , But at the core of what you're doing, it's art. At the core of riding a wave, there's no more pure art form. And I have a little bit of a tagline with my business and it's, it's basically like the symbols, you know, art and science. And so my coaching philosophy is to blend the art and the science together and deliver it to my clients in a digestible way that they can understand it and they can, they can put it into practice. Because if you are. Not a court, uh, a, you know, born surfer in the ocean and you have, you know, natural ocean knowledge and you grew up on your boogie board and your surfboard, and you've just got this feel for the ocean. If you're, if you're foreign to the environment, it can, it can look like reading Chinese when you're English, right? It's, it's such a different science that your mind starts to melt. Like this mathematical equation is just like, I can't get it. But if you break this huge equation down into bite-size pieces and go, well, if we start here and just here is really one plus three, so what's that equal? Okay, cool. So you get that. Now we're gonna go up into this level. You can really start to take them on that journey of understanding the art and the science of it. , And you're almost, what I like to say to a lot of clients is when you do that, you are maybe focusing on the science bits a bit like this technique and this kind of like strategy. But what you're teaching them on a bigger scale is the art form. And when they kind of zoom out, you've kind of like the same paint by numbers. You sort of got them painting the ones and then the twos, and then the threes, and then they kind of zoom out once they're up to the tens and they're like, whoa, look at this. Look at this picture of 'em drawing. You know, it's, this is cool. Like, I didn't even realize I was putting this piece of art together. And you show them a clip, you know, one day that kind of shows them that like, Hey, look, you've just positioned yourself so well here. You've, you've turned, you've cooked, your pop-up was smooth. Youve got speed off the mark, you've flowed to your marker, you know, you compressed, you leaned that bottom turn your extension and your timing was great. You threw your arms and your framework really, really well. And you got your kicking your pedal into that snap. Like you just combined all of that into this one moment. You know, and for many surfers, that's, that's not that easy, you know? . At all. And you know, when you get caught up in coaching a lot of talented kids and juniors, you forget. You forget that side of the sport. And, , well, that side of the art Yeah, because it's so easy to say sport, right? It rolls off your tongue. But, , I think those clients I'm teaching in art and my more high performance kids, I'm teaching the sport, I'm teaching strategy and drills and pressure, you know, scenarios, mindset, confidence, you know, that's all sporting language, right. That you can, you can transition between any sport. , Yeah. Whereas I think our art form of surfing is a different, , killer fish when you talk to how to coach it. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's a good analogy. Yeah. The, the breaking it down, breaking the art of surfing into a science, like paint by numbers into little mm. Into little blocks. And is that what you're specializing in doing with your remote coaching? You tell us about that. Matt Scorringe : Yeah, absolutely. The, the remote coaching,, I, I guess I was thinking like, how can I be more impactful on a longer term, , journey for my clients, right? Rather than coming on a camp or a course or, or a few in-person sessions here or there. Like, how can I actually do what I just explained, like kind of create this program for them that will step them through painting, painting the numbers, and then being able to zoom out in six months time, a year's time and, and be like, you know, way ahead of their surfing curve than they ever thought. And so, you know, with the evolution of technology, , I decided to launch my remote coaching packages. So with that on a simple top, you know, level, they submit footage to me regularly. I do their assessments, I put together their training programs. I like to compare it a little bit. For those that are listening to a simple, you know, remote, um, PT trainer, because it seems to kind of just connect, like, oh, I could see how that could work then where you are training in a different gym, but you're checking in with your trainer over the other side of the country or other side of the world. You're sending them videos, highlighting your, your reps, your routines, they're micro, um, managing that. They're, you know, adjusting those, those reps, those weights. , And you don't really see it until you see it. And a year later, six months later, you are, you're a lot stronger, you're a lot further, you're a lot more mobile because of the work and the personalization they're putting into your program. And you can't do that without assessment. You can't just create a one stop course for everyone. Like that just does not work. And I just don't believe in that stuff. Um, do they help understand the base layer of knowledge? Absolutely. But they're never gonna actually truly get you from where you are to where you want to be. And so I really moved away. From one-off remote, like, you know, video analysis, , purchases. I only work with people a minimum of three months and most people sign up for my six month or a year just to, you know, see those results. Or they might do three and then they just, they just stay. , So yeah, that's how that works. And it is designed purely around that whole combination of the art and the science, and then being able to zoom out and actually see true results, , whether you are a performance junior surfer, wanting to go from like, I'm a good surfer, but I want to be progressive and I want to be dynamic and I need to, I need to lift my score lines. We, we can take you on that journey. We're gonna go more into the competition sports side there, , or your. A 40-year-old woman that's living in El Salvador who I, you know, as a real example of someone I coach and she's started, decided to ride a shortboard after a longboard her whole life. , And we've got her doing snaps in the pocket and, you know, she had a good base layer, but she never knew how to turn properly. And yeah, it's been a fun journey, , I really enjoy my, my remote coaching. And the best thing about it is the accountability. People have to submit footage and so they go away and they work really hard because they know they have to send map footage and they wanna, they wanna show results. And so just like if you're gonna send a photo to your, um, PT three months later, you don't wanna send the one of you looking less fit than when you started with 'em or her. So it's kinda thinking. Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, that's a good analogy too. 'cause when it comes to training in the gym and or changing your diet or whatever, you need consistency over at least three months to see any sort of change and Absolutely. It's the same with surfing as you're surfing, even more so, I mean, gosh, you could be, you could almost become an expert in the gym in two or three years. It's gonna take you more like, , 22 or 23 years in surfing. It's, you gotta have the long, the long game when it comes to surfing, unless you're 10 years old and you're starting now made a rubber. Yeah. Okay, cool. So how can people learn more about, uh, more about your remote coaching? Matt Scorringe : Yeah. Um, best place to find me would be on Instagram, the Art of Surfing and the art of surfing.com. So yeah, if you head there, there's , a good page about the remote coaching. There's a page about our online academy membership, which is more of a entry level too. , The remote coaching where there's more tutorials and um, video content, but also with the year membership, people get a Teos annual review and that is one version of the programming I do. And then they get to get a taster and if they, you know, want to, you know, be more committed to their, their surfing than progression, they can up, up, up, um, grade to the remote coaching package as well. Michael Frampton: Okay, awesome. So that's the art of surfing.co nz. There will be links to that in the show notes, and if you're on Instagram, it's the same, same handle. And also, so let me ask you, it's for people listening in, uh, America and Europe, it's coming into winter season, so there will be intermediate surfers listening that will be tempted to maybe step outside their comfort zone and surf some slightly bigger waves. , Do you have any tips for those, those people entering this season over there? Matt Scorringe : My, my main tip for winter surfing in general is, so when you look at your mindset to performance, regardless of your level, there's certain pillars that you want to strengthen and lean into and spend time in. One of those pillars is form and like focusing on correct form, but with, , a more sort of slower pace to it. So we, we otherwise call that focusing on rhythm, right? Like when we build rhythm and we try and build flow, , that can look really beautifully and done with minimal effort, minimal, like major range of movements in our, in our body. So think of John. John, like, or Occy, like you're saying. So winter you're generally. Want to maybe look at writing a slightly high volume board. , You might want to play around if you're an intermediate level surfer with, you know, those mid lengths that you might have started to also explore with, and you're gonna be wearing lots more rubber. So I move my clients away from the fast twitch, , dynamic focus, , kind of coaching focuses that we might have in warmer water or in summer months, and more on the range of movement, but done not at a rushed pace. So to say that was something tangible to work on. It might be working on like, rather than off the mark speed and, and pump, pump, pump actually working on your timing of your first bottom turn and just being deep with your glide. And so less effort on the, the speed to get to that moment. But when you are there. You know, compress and lean and see how low you can get, how much you can touch, and then really extend up as you draw up the wave towards that top turn and isolate that. Just be okay with that being what you are working on and less worried about the overall outcome of this wave being three or four to the beach or putting together this perfect ride because we move slower in the colder water, you know, we're stiffer, the boards are, you know, the wits make you heavier. So bit of volume, bit of flow, bit of focus on some isolated, um, range of movement in some areas. And you know, obviously if you've got a coach you're working with that can tell you what those areas are. Great. But just from a generalized point of view, that's a theme I, uh, I kind of lean into with my clients that are in their winter months because you're also not usually catching as much waves in those winter months. Just typically not surfing as much. Your reps are down your wave count, you know, your ride time. So rather than trying to, you know. Be all over the show with it. Just simplify, build some flow. Yeah. Michael Frampton: Range of movement. Yeah. That's actually good advice for all levels of surfers. 'cause if you're in summer mode and you enter that summer frantic way of surfing into a powerful wave, you're gonna, it doesn't, doesn't really work. Does it? Yeah, totally. The irony is for those who haven't really stepped into winter waves, the intermediate surfers, when the bigger the wave is, the more time you actually have. Now it's scarier. So sometimes it feels like you have less time, but if you're comfortable in the ocean on bigger waves, you, you going a bit faster, but you actually have more time. 'cause it takes longer to drop down. So you need more control and less, less, less fast twitch. Um, and then of course you've got, we've got the Southern Hemisphere listeners and we're coming into summer. Any advice for those coming into summer? Matt Scorringe : Yeah, look at the moment I've, I've really enjoyed with my remote coaching working on my client's framework and the entry phase. So what that means is when you are entering your top turn, I call that the, the, the entry phase. So basically your bottom turn and your approach. Um, you have your action phase, which is whatever maneuver you're trying to do off the top. And then you have your exit phase when you're sort of like obviously trying to complete it and ride out. And so with summer, and then we can just zoom out and say surfing in general, like you're gonna usually get your reps up in the summer, you're gonna be hopefully surfing in boardies and, and light of we ease and you're gonna be more quick kind of with those reaction times. So you start to get erratic and if your movements are incorrect and erratic, you double down on negative results with your surfing right? And you're actually creating more bad habits, uh, and you start to sometimes get worse. And you're surfing more, but you're getting worse. And so the frustration comes in. So what I like to get people really focusing on as they kind of make that transition is the framework, particularly of their arms. So again, like how to do that is something that you'd have to, you know, be coached by me to do or someone that you work with. But getting your arm set, getting your, your, your extension, your framework of the arm set so that when you are doing your movement patterns, you're in the action phase, you're coming from a, a, a good foundation. So, um, a good analogy is golf. Like, think about walking up to hit a ball. , And you don't really address the ball very well. You just sort of like, get up there, set your feet, look, look down at the pen and just swung away. Most of the time for an everyday golfer that that swing's gonna be pretty bad and the ball's gonna not go where you want it to go, and you might get a few that go kind of good and, and, and the majority of that won't. I know that's certainly how it is for me. Um, and the difference is if you were to go up, you address ball properly, you go through your routine, you get your framework set, you kind of have your, your, your markers that your coach has given you that you gotta make sure of, and then you breathe into that moment and, and you go, go for the swing. You're, you're generally gonna find that you have a much better consistent swing. So the beauty of golf is you can take your time and you can address that as long as you need. With surfing, you don't have that luxury. You're gonna be coming off your bottom turn and boom, you're at the top. So to implement the right framework is much harder, therefore more important. And yeah, okay. It might be trickier to actually do, but if you can get your arm set and you can get a high back arm and you can activate your leading arm so that you have the arms ready for leverage and rotation or twist or throw, , you're generally gonna just throw, twist or rotate in a much better form, and therefore your surfing will be better, less erratic, and you know, you won't have that frustration that follows. So yeah, what does that look like? Well, you know, that's something that you, you need to get some tips on if you're, if you're not sure. But ultimately, , just think getting your arm set to be utilized. A lot of people just don't lift them. They're just underneath their arm, their, , shoulder height through all their surfing. , There's no over. The shoulder throw, it's all under the shoulder throw. So I think, , a lot of backstroke swings rather than freestyle swings. Mm. So what does that do? When you go into a Rio or snap and you're doing a backstroke swing, you are actually pulling your whole body momentum back over your heels to sit back down. And a lot of surfers do that with their finishing turns or top turns. Uh, if you can get that over shoulder throw, freestyle throw, uh, you're going to project a forward momentum, uh, a forward cycle and circle that pulls you over your toes, helps you rotate and twist out towards the beach through the turn. Um, so those little things make a huge knock on effect. Um. You know, and, and you're surfing and summer is a good time to, to get that right because, you know, you're, you're generally just gonna be, hopefully surfing a lot more, more reps, more moments. Yeah. And, and maybe a little bit more lively with your approach. Michael Frampton: Mm, yeah. That's a, that's a nice detailed tip there. Yeah. I think a lot of, even a lot of surf coaches would miss that, the difference in an arm swing. 'cause the reverse under the, under the shoulder, that's a react. That's a fear thing. That's a pullback. It's my god. Yeah. It's reactive, fear based. Yeah. And you can over, you can override that and actually correct the fear at the same time, or you can correct the fear and sometimes the movement is corrected. And of course, if you've got a good coach, you're doing both. So, um, those that we'll find out more about next. Well, you know, Matt Scorringe : con confidence is. Confidence is not a feeling. It's the result of actions, right? You get confident based on the result of repetitive actions you've done that make you not fear that moment, fear that situation, fear that movement. So the action phase creates confidence and you nailed it. Like I use reactive versus proactive surfing as a 1 0 1 explanation for my clients. Like, here's proactive surfing from you. And then as you transition here, this is all reactive. So we'll go back to your last proactive moment, okay? That's where we now look to implement the, the next phase in a proactive manner. So they may have a good takeoff, they may have a good bottom turn, but from their approach into their action phase, it's all reactive. Well, that, that's where you've gotta start. You can't, you can't talk about their finishing phase yet. Like they've gotta get this right before. You know, paint by numbers though. Michael Frampton: Yes. Yes. Step by step. Well, those who are listening, who are inspired to find out more, go to the art of surfing.co nz. And, uh, if you're really serious about changing a surfing, you gotta, you gotta have some commitment. It's gonna take minimum three months of consistent action. And, uh, I can tell you from experience, I've been through a phase of my life where I spend a lot of time, effort, and money on improving my surfing. And I certainly do not regret it because. It's not something you have to do for years and years and years. Even if you only did one year of that, you've changed the way you surf forever. , It's, it's amazing what I blew my own mind of what I achieved within a year. Uh, I, you know, achieved my goals, you know, way earlier and, and far beyond what I thought was possible and when I focused on my surfing. So I encourage those out there just to just get it done, get some coaching done. It's painful, watching yourself surf, et cetera, but it's the only way forward. Mm-hmm. And Matt's one of the best in the business. So thank you for tuning in. Uh, you can also go back to episode five and episode 79, I think it was. I'll put links to that, the other two interviews with Matt in the show notes if you want to hear more from Matt's philosophy and of course his backstory in the original, uh, episode. So Matt, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Matt Scorringe : Cheers, Mike. Likewise, stoked to be back on the pod. And, . Thanks everyone for listening. Hope you guys got some good takeaways and, and enjoyed, , enjoyed the conversation. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

Is the surfer catching the most waves always the best surfer in the lineup - or just the loudest? Surfing is more crowded than ever, and the line between etiquette and entitlement in the lineup is getting blurry. Whether you're new to surfing or a seasoned local, understanding the evolving ethics of surf culture can make or break your session - and everyone else’s. Hear Holly Beck share how her transformation from competitive surfer to retreat leader changed her perspective on surf etiquette. Learn why the unspoken “rules” of the lineup are more complex than just "who's deepest," and how understanding nuance can lead to a better surf experience. Discover how surf culture can shift towards empathy and inclusivity without sacrificing skill, tradition, or respect.  Tune in to hear a refreshingly real and nuanced conversation that will challenge how you think about surfing, sharing waves, and what it truly means to be the best surfer in the water. https://surfwithamigas.com Transcript: Michael Frampton: . That's a good segue into what we're gonna talk about today, but there's another thing that's, , for those listening, we're gonna talk about etiquette today, soon, but let me ask you, here's a question that I've been asking guests recently, which I think ties into the, the broader topic of what we're gonna discuss today is, is surfing a sport or is it an art? Holly Beck: I think it depends. I think it could be either, depending on the participant. I think that for me, when I was a competitive surfer, then it was sport. And now that I'm not a competitive surfer, then for me it's more of an art. But I think that different people can, can make that choice and be right. You know, that both, both answers could be right, depending on the person and how they approach it. Michael Frampton: Okay. Holly Beck: What do you think? Michael Frampton: I, I agree with that. I, I I, I think it's a, well, I think it's a sport, obviously if you're in a surfing competition and you're being judged, you know, it's a sporting competition. And in those situations, surfing is a sport. However, when you were to watch the replay of John John surfing his final winning wave, it's pretty hard to argue how artistic and dance like the way he moves is, and I would, he hesitate to, to guess that he's just in the zone at trying to be one with the wave and express himself through surfing rather than, oh, I gotta hit the lip three times to get to the beach, to score a, an 8.7 that I need. Maybe sometimes he thinks like that, but I just think the, the, the best in the world, they treat competitive surfing like a sport, except when they're actually surfing, when they're actually standing up on the wave. That's when they're performing an art form. They just, all the competitive stuff, all the rules and regulations of , paddling around priority, all that jazz. The sporting stuff seems to sort of get, it should be forgotten about once you're up on the wave and then you're an artist essentially. Um, there's no finish. I wonder Holly Beck: if you could say the same thing about the greats in things that I think most of us would say are a sport like soccer or football, , my son is really into soccer and so I've been learning about soccer. I didn't play soccer growing up, but we've been watching messy, you know, videos of messy and all of, you know, the compilation on YouTube of the amazing goals that he's able to score and the different ways that he's able to do it. And I think when you mentioned Jonjo on his winning wave, I kind of had that same thought of like, if you are so great. At whatever it is that you're doing and you're in the flow, like the different ways of scoring a goal or even shooting a basket, you know, with the hang time and the style of the way that your arm is , at that point it's going beyond just, I need to get this ball into the goal, or I need to get this ball into the basket. And it's like the flare of how you do it that makes it into an art. Michael Frampton: I totally agree. I think messy is an artist. I think the difference is though, a football game, the score, if the ball goes in the goal, you know, there's a hard line you win. Like, like a running race is a great, like there's no arguing. You either won the race or you didn't. It doesn't matter whether the second place looked more beautiful doing it, this, they still came second. Whereas in surfing, we're almost judged on how artistic we look when we are actually surfing. The fastest surfer doesn't necessarily win. It's the most beautiful way that you surf with the wave that you've been given. So I'd almost argue that the sport of surfing is judged from an artistic perspective far more similar to gym gymnastics in the Olympics, for example. Holly Beck: Yeah, for sure. That makes sense. Mm-hmm. Michael Frampton: But Holly Beck: I, again, I feel like the, the difference in, well, at least the, the way that I interpreted your initial question is like how you are approaching it. You know, if there's like a, a sporting mindset of like my fitness and my training, and I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna perform a certain, I guess even using the word perform kind of messes it up. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna achieve a certain set of things versus I'm going to maintain my flexibility so that I can go out and perform my. Stance with the wave. So maybe it's just, I, I just noticed that my relationship to surfing has definitely changed. And, you know, 10 years ago I would answer your question differently than I answer it now. And I don't think that surfing has changed. I'm the one that's changed. Michael Frampton: Yeah, I guess my argument is that for most of my listeners, I, if you wanna get better at surfing, I think it's better to think of it as an art form rather than a sport. 'cause it sort of takes the competitiveness away from it. 'cause often when we think of sport, we think of competition, whereas surfing outside of competition, 99% of people listening to this probably more have no, um, have never competed in a surfing competition and have no desire to. However, they do want to get better at surfing and I like to sort of think of, , surfing as more like music than it is tennis. Holly Beck: Well, and then I guess you have to ask the question like, what does it mean to be better at surfing? Is it better because you're able to catch more waves, you're able to ride bigger waves, you are able to perform more advanced maneuvers? Or is it because you're able to go out there and connect with the ocean and feel the glide and have fun? Because for some people it might be really good at at the first and really bad at the second. And are they really better surfers because they can do Hess, but they're getting angry and they're making enemies and everybody in the lineup hates them. Does that make them a better surfer than somebody that's just paddling out and enjoying the experience and connecting with the other surfers and the water and ride standing up and having a beautiful long ride where they kick out of control of their board? Is that a better surfer? Michael Frampton: Well, exactly. And you hit on my point. I think that a lot of people, especially young beginners, , the way that they think about surfing is bastardized by the surf industry and the surfing media where they think, oh, a good surfer is someone who surfs a shortboard and does three to the beach. Whereas actually, if you think about surfing as not a, not a sport, but more of an art form, more like music, then you can actually sit down and go, actually, what does good surfing mean to me? And then there's such a broad spectrum of what that means. Maybe it is. Yeah. I do it actually. Damn it. I do want to show off and do three to beach and owning that and doing it is gonna make you better. Or I think for most of us listening, it's actually, you know, I just maybe surfing a bigger board and catching. Waves over here away from the crowd that aren't, don't peel as much, but I get more of them and it's just more about me adventure, surfing and connecting with the ocean. Actually, maybe that's more getting better at doing that, getting better at surfing that wave over there that no one else surfs or whatever it is. If you think of surfing as an art form, then you get to choose your genre of surfing and dive into that and decide what it is more rather than just, I would need to get the latest pop out shortboard model that so-and-so's riding and the wetsuit that he but, and the clothes or whatever. I just think so many people have been blindsided by the surf industry and the surf media as to what surfing is and when you change your whole philosophy. Define what your own surfing is and what you want out of it, then not only are you gonna be better at surfing, you're gonna be, you're gonna have a better attitude in the water. You're gonna be more fun to surf with. Um, blah blah blah. Which kind of leads us into the etiquette side of things. 'cause I think that ties into it quite nicely. Like if you are literally paddling out at a crowded surf break in a short, on a shortboard, and you want to just catch lots of waves and pretend that you're John John, there's a time and a place to do it. And if you're gonna do it at trestles, there's a different etiquette than if you were going to, you know, paddle a longboard out at, at Noosa on a, on a Kneehigh windless day. You know, the, the, those are two completely different situations and I think the etiquette needs to be, I don't think there's any one way of thinking about surf etiquette. Holly Beck: Well, I, I like what you said about it being specific to the, the situation and the different spot that you're in and, and that etiquette is like, there is a general set of like rules and also there's a lot of gray area, and also the rules change based on the situation. Michael Frampton: Definitely. We can agree on that. You, you, you do. You know, um, this came up because of some, there's been an article on Stab and Surfline and then there's been a bit of back and forth through Instagram, some of your posts, and then you reached out to me with an email. And I think we agree on in a lot of ways, but I think we also disagree in a lot of ways too. But let's hear some more of your extreme, not extreme. Um, some Holly Beck: call them extreme views. All right, I'll, I'll tell you where they came from. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Holly Beck: If that's how, that's what I'm trying to ask. So I, I, I grew up in the, and started surfing in the mid nineties in Palos Verdes, California. And Palos Verdes is really well known for having like intense, like old school etiquette. Like if you don't live here, you can't surf here. One of the things that creates the conditions for that is that the waves there are very infrequently good. The waves get amazing, they get world class. There's awesome waves, but you need a really specific type of swell to make them work. So all summer long it's completely flat and in the springtime when you get wind swells, it's junky. So the only time that makes those waves really good is when you get like a strong northwest long period swell. And then there's all of these points that light up and Palos Verdes is located in between Los Angeles and LA County. It's this little peninsula that sticks out. The freeways are really far away. Nobody's passing through Palos. You have to go there. And it's also a upper middle class location and the along the coast in Palos, because it's so beautiful and it's right in between LA and Orange County, it's really expensive to live there. So there's a lot of. Trust fund kids and very wealthy, you know, adults that live there that feel this sense of entitlement and privilege. And also the fact that the waves don't get good very often when they are good, there's this feeling of like, these are our waves, these are our waves in our backyard that we've waited all year to surf and we are gotta, we've gotta stop the outsiders for coming in, right? This is localism at its peak and that's what I grew up in. And, and so when I was young and getting indoctrinated into that, you know, I thought that was the way to do it. And you know, if you're a grom, you sit, you start at the beaches or you sit on the very inside and you don't get set waves and you have to like play all the different games of ingratiating yourself to the guys at the top of the pecking order and pay your dues and be out there on the sloppy days. And make friends. And then also, you know, it's like a pack of dogs. The, if the alpha is barking at outsiders and you want to be accepted by the alpha, then you have to also bark at the outsiders. So I got pulled into that pact of thinking that that was the right way to be and that was the cool way to be. And I also want, you know, to claim my share of this limited resource. And so if I saw, , people from out of town that I didn't know, I was a jerk to them, just like everybody else was paddling circles around them, dropping in on them, telling them to beat it. Like I had a friend who would, you know, on a crowded day, he would call out and he'd be like, who knows the zip code? If you don't know the zip code, turn and paddle in right now. Right. And, and so I thought that was normal and that was right. And I defended that. And then I eventually moved to, to Central America and was surfing very uncrowded spots and kind of started to develop a different perspective. And I started to surf with a big group of women and recognize that just because I lived there, you know, and here's these clients coming in for a week, does it mean that I get more right to waves than they do because I live there? And at first I said, yes. Yeah, maybe not my clients, but when I was out surfing this break, that is now my new home break. And then, you know, there's the local kids that are true locals, and then there's me who's lived there for 10 years. And then there's the guy from Florida who's been there a week. And so I kind of took that same mindset that said. I deserve more than you from Florida because I live here and continued it. And, and then, you know, I have progressed as a human and through the counseling degree and, and everything else. And, and I had been teaching to our clients. 'cause we teach etiquette, right? I believe that everybody needs to know etiquette. And if I'm teaching surfers how to surf, part of my responsibility as a surf instructor is to teach them etiquette so that I'm not just pushing him into waves, but I'm teaching them to become a surfer. So that means educating them on the history and how to be a surfer in the lineup. And I used to teach, okay, here it is, you know, the surfer closest to the breaking part of the wave has priority. And as you paddle out, you know, you make sure to paddle around into the channel if you can. And if you're paddling out and somebody's on the wave, it's your job to get outta the way and sacrifice yourself to the whitewash. And don't drop in and surface spot that's appropriate to your ability level and all of the basic. Rules that I think us as surfers don't argue about. Like we all agree that those are the rules of surfing. And then I used to say too, like we are not all equal. There's the guy who has been surfing here before you were born. There's the person who is an exceptional surfer that's lived there a long time. And then there's you as the visiting advanced beginner or beginner on a long board. And you're not all equal If you all paddle out at the same time and the set wave comes, probably the guy who's been surfing here before you're born is gonna take the first good wave and then the aspiring pro surfer is gonna take the next good wave and then it's your turn. And that was what I would teach. And I started to adjust my mindset and I gotta give credit where it's due. Part of it was from a good friend of mine who is a woman of color, and she had created this organization, co-founded an organization called, um, color the Water that was all about taking people from communities that traditionally didn't have access to surfing and help bring them into surfing. And, and she had this like, we'll call it like woke, but like, you know, uh, evolved. Vision of equality that I didn't agree with. 'cause I was like, no, if you don't live here and you're a beginner or you know you haven't grown up there, then you need to give extra respect to the locals. And we got in these big arguments and over time I started to change my mindset because a lot of the things that she was saying was like, why is it that Just because, let's use me as an example. I came from a privileged background of having the opportunity to grow up in this beautiful surfing paradise. And I am, came from a family with money. So I didn't have to work when I was in, I mean, I did work in high school, but like not in the sense that stopped me from going to the beach. I didn't have to like help provide for my family. And then. I was able to continue to live that lifestyle that was able to spend a lot of time to become a good surfer and to spend a lot of time at a certain break. That was a lot of privilege and luck that I had. And why does that make me more worthy of set weights? Like it shouldn't, right? The ocean is for everyone. So if I paddle out into the water, just because I grew up surfing and I live close to this break, if somebody didn't grow up by the beach, they grew up inland and they've moved to the coast and they have to work to support their family, so they only get to surf one day a week. So they're still, you know, learning to surf. Why does that person not have a right to catch a set wave? And, and like, I didn't have a good answer for that. Michael Frampton: Do you? I the, the way that you grew up in surfing partly answers it. I, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I do think it's specific to where you're surfing. Like this, this person, if this person took that attitude out to uh, uh, head high day at first point Malibu, Holly Beck: well, what's the attitude? Good, good. What's the attitude? Michael Frampton: What do you mean? Holly Beck: You said if this person takes that attitude, what attitude? Define the attitude. Michael Frampton: Thinking that they should just get their turn because they paddled out at a surf spot and that everyone should have turns. Is that what you're sort of getting at? Holly Beck: I, that's, I think that's what we're getting at. But let's, let's remove Malibu or Lenta Bay from it and let's just think about average. Average surf spot. Any surf spot, random surf spot, not famous, intense. We're not talking about pipeline or Malibu or raglin. We're just talking about a, a beach break. Mm. Crappy, crappy beach break. And three of us are going surfing and one of us lives there and one of us is a pro surfer and one of us is, they're ca capable of surfing those waves. I'm not saying somebody in their first day ever, that's gonna be a danger to anyone. I think a lot of times in this conversation, the argument becomes you're advocating for beginners at the peak. No, no, no. I'm not saying that. Saying that we're all capable surfers. Mm-hmm. But one of us has been surfing at that spot since before we were born, and the other one has been surfing there for 10 years and somebody else, it's maybe their first time there. Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. Okay. So in that, in that situation. Yes. I, I, I see what you're saying. Like if, if we all three went out surfing together at a spot and it would be, there's enough waves for us to take turns and still get our fix, and each person is going to respect each other as from a human level, not just a surfing level. It, it sounds awesome. And in that situation, I, I agree with you. How, however, during that same surf if, because I've been surfing there all my life and I see it's let, let's say it's, , Janet's turn and she's the first time she's a capable surfer, but it's the first time she's surfed there. And we've been sharing waves all the time. But I see, I see something on the horizon that indicates to me, oh, there's a rogue set coming. I know where these ones break and I paddle out, it's her turn and I paddle out a little bit further. She follows me, but. My experience out at this break has told me no, there's a wave that there's a rogue wave that's gonna break there. I don't care if it's her turn. This is my experience coming through. I'm taking that wave no matter what. That's where we get into the nuance and the, because my, my I, I'm more competent to that break. I understand that wave more. 'cause I've spent more time out there. I think I should be able to catch that wave of the day and not necessarily give it to her unless I felt generous in the time and I wanted her to catch that wave. 'cause I wanted to share the stoke. Maybe I'm a little bit older and more mature and I've, damn, I've had my fix for today. So I think there's a lot of nuance there. And that decision was like, do I, do I use my. Experience as a surfer in this break to get that the best wave of the day? Or do I share it with someone else because, not just because it's their turn, but maybe that's the a nice thing to do in the moment. That's where I think the nuance exists in this situation. However, there's not many situations like that. Usually when you go surfing, no matter where you go, whether it's first point Malibu or some closeout beach. So in between there and Trestles or anywhere on the along the coast, there's people everywhere and it's so hard to get away from people. And I would say most people under 45 have the old school mentality of surfing. So you are, you're in this sort of gray area of like, do I be nice area? No one else is taking turns. Why should I? Holly Beck: Well, that's the problem. And I, and I think that, that, that is where it comes in. And, and to like, to go back to your example, like yeah, the local, that is a good surfer, that knows that break is gonna get more waves and you probably will get the best wave of the day that comes in. And as you should, that is your, that is your benefit, that is your reward for having put that time in and studied that spot. Right? So I'm not saying that like, if there's three of you, you should all have the exact same number of ways. My, my point would be that you see that lump coming and you know where it's gonna be and you paddle over and, and maybe she follows you, but you've initiated it and you've taken it. Like, I think that's fine. The problem is that if you take it here. And then she goes, okay. Right. I'm gonna, I've noticed I'm learning from him and I'm noticing that there might be a good one there. And she paddles over it. There's not a second wave in the set, unfortunately. But she sits there and waits and you go, oh, right. She's kind of in my spot, but I'm gonna paddle back around her and sit a little deeper that way. The next one that comes, I'm gonna take that one too, because that's my right as a local at this spot, because that is the attitude that I see happen. Mm-hmm. So I agree with your, your nuance. I think that there is, there is nuance and it does break down when too many people are fighting. So, but I think it's important to start with what would we do if there were just a few of us? What would be the right thing to do? Throw away the old rules and think about what would be the right thing to do? What would be the human thing to do? It's never gonna be completely equal, but if you think about what would happen if there were just a few of us, how would I behave? How would I act? What, you know how it is when just like you and your friends go surfing. Like if you do get one of those lucky days where there's just four or five of you and you're cheering for each other and yeah, maybe somebody catches a few more than others, just happens to be in the flow and those waves just come right to them, you know? But they're gonna, you're gonna recognize if you're out surfing with your friends, right? You're gonna recognize, Ooh, I've kind of gotten really lucky and I've just got three good ones in a row. And even though this other good one is kind of coming right to me, I noticed my friend hasn't had one. So you're gonna most likely back off and be like, go. This one's yours, right? Like that's how you would behave in a small group of surfers that you knew, or even a smaller group of surfers that you didn't know. Like most humans are gonna respond like that. So my point is, if we were teaching that as the right way to do it, even in a giant group of surfers at Malibu, if that was the norm. Then I feel like surfing culture would change a little bit. And instead what I've noticed is that as it gets more crowded, people are holding even tighter to the old ways and also they just don't know. So part of what has made me think about this more lately, yes, my, that conversation with my friend kind of opened my eyes to, wow, I have experienced a lot of privilege and maybe I should be using my privilege to be nicer in the water instead of just putting the blinders on. But lately I've been surfing a point break that used to be a secret spot that now is becoming more and more known and more and more crowded and. I've been frustrated by it. There's like a top of the point where like the very tippy top where all the aggressive surfers paddle each other too deep to be the deepest. But the actual best part of the wave in my experience is a little wider. Like the ones I sit a little further down the point and the waves that swing wide, the wave that they break on the point is actually where I prefer to sit. So I generally sit there and so I watch the aggressive surfers do laps. And there was this one day, there was this surfer. He was kind of darker skinned, but it wasn't obvious that he was local. I was, I'm in Costa Rica, so he, it wasn't obvious that he was a local Costa Rican, but he did have a little darker skin and he was wearing these bright red board shorts and I'd never seen him before. And I've spent a lot of time at this break. So I feel like I know most of the true locals. I'd never seen him before. And he was just doing laps. He was a good surfer and he would catch a set wave. He would catch a little wave. It wasn't like he was just waiting for the best waves of the day. He was paddling for any wave he could catch, and he was riding them and bee lining it straight back to the top of the point and going again. And he was really irritating. A lot of the people in the water were irritated with this guy and some people were grumbling to each other, but no one was really saying anything. And probably third day of seeing him during the swell, I had a friend paddle out, a girl on a longboard. She was having a hard day, she just needed to get a couple waves. We were kind of, we started chatting, we sort of floated down to the very bottom of the wave and she was like, uh, I'm so frustrated. I just need a wave. And I see red shorts up and riding again. And he has already traversed, you know, like 50 meters. This is a real long point break. We're at the very, very end of the wave where most people just kick out. Anyways, she's on a long board and I tell her, oh, it, it's just red shorts go. You go drop in on it. Which, you know, may have, may not been the right thing to do. But in that moment, I'm trying to look out for my friend. This guy's not caring about anyone else. So I tell her to go, she's like, really, really the guy? And I'm like, don't worry. He's been, he's been taking too many, everybody's annoyed with this guy. So she drops in on him and he is racing down the line. And what most I think of us would've done would've been like, Ugh, and kicked out, whatever. I've had a hundred waves today. Let let the girl on the long board go. But he didn't. He forced it and yelled at her and she got flustered and she fell off. And I'm like, oh my God, I've caused this. So I'm sitting there preparing my apology. I'm thinking to myself, when he paddles back out, I'm gonna apologize to him and I'm gonna say, Hey, I'm, that was my fault. I'm so sorry I told my friend to go, but this is why I've noticed that you've been catching a ton of waves. Maybe you should let a, a few go. Before I got a chance to say that to him, he paddles up angrily. And my friend, who's already had a bad day, she just releases her anger on him. And instead of apologizing, she goes, I heard that you've been taking all the waves, and that's not cool. And now we're all yelling at each other, just the opposite of the vibe I'm trying to create in the water. But I got kind of sucked in. And, and he doesn't understand because in his mind, he got dropped in on and yelled at. And now I'm, instead of calmly apologizing and having an opening to this conversation, I'm now yelling back at him and we have this whole thing. And, and he paddles away. And now all three of us and the, uh, the bystanders in the water, everybody's nervous system is activated. And I was like, Ugh. And eventually he paddled over to another one of our friends and said, what? I don't understand what just happened. So she told me that. So I paddled up to him and in a much calmer way, I explained what happened and he told me he thought he was following the rules. He was like, but I was deepest, so that means I have priority. And, and I, that was the realization that, you know, everybody in the water is annoyed with this guy, but he doesn't realize it because in his mind he's a hundred percent justified. He's following the rules. And you know, we eventually, we explained, we, you know, Pura Vida High five, we respected each other's surfing. And I think it was only because I am a very competent surfer that he would even hear me out because that is surfing, right? We as surfers respect other talented surfers. And you know, he had, he commented like he had seen me, , catching waves. And I said, yeah, I also respect your surfing , so we can have this conversation. And a few days later I saw a very similar thing happen with a, like a beginner surfer. This guy could barely surf, but he was doing the same thing. He was paddling up to the top of the point. He was going on waves, he was falling, he was doing it over again. And I went to him and had a nice conversation. I was like, Hey, I noticed you're catching a lot of waves and even dropping in on, or not dropping on people, but like dropping in too deep. You know, like he was taking waves that if he had let them go, other surfers could ride. So he was blocking people from catching waves in that way. And I'm like, but you know, you should really sit down the way or let some waves go. And he's like, but I was deepest. And so that is what made me realize that this is the problem, is that when we as surfer culture are having these conversations, we're telling people these are the rules closest to the breaking part has priority. Don't drop in, paddle around, but there's no mention of and look out for other surfers. Keep in mind that just because you can sit deepest and take waves, that doesn't, there's more to it. And soon after I'd been having these conversations, I was scrolling Instagram as you do. And I saw that, I think it was Surfline had this really cool feature that they had clearly invested money in. And there was these animated graphics and it was all like the rules of surfing. And I was so interested. So like, so what are they gonna have? And, and it was all of those rules. It was like surf at a spot appropriate to your level, you know, all the things that we already listed, no mention of, and look out for the other surfers and take turns. And just because your deepest doesn't mean that you should have priority forever. Like it, like similar to your, I listened to your podcast of, uh, Laird, you know, the, when you had the, you told the story of Laird. Yeah. Where I was like. Laird thinks he's Laird, so he gets to go, you know, and it, it's like, why aren't we having this conversation more that it isn't just if you're the best surfer and you can take off the deepest that you get more waves. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Uh, it's so nuanced. And to take that lad story, I think the lad story and your story of red shorts are quite similar in a way. Do you know the only, the only reason that LAD was getting so many waves off me. Is because I let him, and the only reason Red Shorts was doing what he did is 'cause he was acting like a kook and no one was pulling him up on it now until you calmly spoke to him. And he's like, oh. So I describe a kook as someone who's with a lack of awareness. It doesn't matter whether you're a good surfer or not. You, if you're out there just running rings around everyone else and with a complete lack of awareness, just think, oh, just 'cause I'm just, 'cause I can drop in, you know, more than earlier than you. I get all the waves. You're acting like a kook and it's up to one of the elders. Now, maybe it's one of the elders drops in on him, pushes him deep, and then the guy comes at him and starts yelling at him and he just looks him in the eye and says, nah, man, you're going in. That's the old school way of way of doing it. And that's how it used to get sorted out. But nowadays it's more like, actually, we'll let you vent and calm down and then I'm gonna have a logical conversation with you. And if you're still gonna act like that, well you know what you're gonna get dropped in on. And everyone's on my side. And I, I, I think, so in my, the situation with lead, I didn't speak up early enough and I mean, of course part of it's lead Lead is who lead is because of what lead does. That's part of it too. But at the same time, when I did stick up for myself, he was, he kind of more appreciated it than anything else. And just like with red shorts guy, I, I'm assuming he did change his attitude or he paddled in that day, or, I mean, what ha have you seen him since? Like what, what's the follow on from No, I, Holly Beck: I never saw him again. It was, it ended up being the last day of his. Of his trip. He, he turned out to be Costa Rican and which is something he like, let made sure to let me know and that, but he lived in a different part of Costa Rica and, and when we finally had that conversation, it was like, at the very end of this, we'd both gone in, we we're both on the beach and had the conversation on the beach. So I never got a chance, but I, I, I hoped that he thought about it because that, like, that was the realization was that to me it seemed like he just didn't realize, like he, like I think Laird realizes, like Laird knows, right? Like, I wanna think that Laird knows that. It would be nicer to share waves, but because he is layered, nobody's gonna say anything. Where in this case, both red shorts and the beginner guy that I mentioned, they just literally didn't know. Like they looked at me like there was some, like they were shocked that I was calling them out because they thought they were in the right. Because even when you, you know, you go to a surf break and you see the like signs now that they have at places mm-hmm. That are like the rules of surfing. You know, again, the rules are surfer deepest and don't drop in. And that, that, that's the conversation that I wanna have. Like I recognize that there's nuance and you get to a certain level of certain number of people in the water and it's just like, it's becomes chaos. But I wish that there was more conversation around and let's look out for each other in the water. Because sometimes I think that that person that is catching so many waves, obviously everybody's different, but a lot of times they think that they're crushing it. They think they're showing off. Mm-hmm. They think that the other surfers in the water are like in awe of all the waves they're catching and how they're ripping. And if we, as a surfing culture, were adjusting what we felt like was good surfing and that included was pleasant to surf with. Then I think that the lineup would be nicer for everyone. And then the shredder, because that's how I try to surf now. You know, like, don't get me wrong, I like to be the best surfer in the water when I, when I'm having a good day. And I love it when I do a big turn and someone comments, and I love it when I get the best set wave of the day. Like I still have that. But I have now recognized that if I have that, but everybody's annoyed with me, then I'm not actually the best surfer in the water. And that that's the part that I wish was more a part of surf culture. Because I think that still, there are people, a lot of them like that believe that part of being the best surfer in the water is also getting the most or the best waves. And it's aside from just their enjoyment of those waves, but they actually think that that is them, you know, winning. Winning the surf session. Michael Frampton: Yeah. . And I think . Pre CCTV, that person would've been showing the door through old school passive aggressive localism, which I agree with you, but not if they Holly Beck: were local. Michael Frampton: No, it depends if, if he, if he, it depends on who he's snaking. You know, if he's, if he's out, if there's a bunch of plumbers that want to get their three waves before work and they're older than him, well, you know, he's not gonna get away with it back in the day. Nowadays with CCTV, no one wants to say anything. No one wants any, no one wants conflict. People just ignore these sorts of people and just. Like, I mean, ld LD is gonna go out and catch as many waves as LD can catch. He's, there's no etiquette in Laird's mind. It's a dog eat dog world. I'm the best. It's a hierarchy of confidence. I'm dropping in deepest, I'm on a standup foil board. I don't give a shit until someone looks him in the eye and says something to him and says, actually, I'm gonna then let Mike go. You know what? You made the effort to actually say something to me and make a conversation and prove to me that you can catch a wave on the peak. Yeah. Okay. We'll, we'll go wave for wave now. I, I think the, the problem in the culture is no one says anything, therefore narcissistic and kooks like red shorts guy and lead Hamilton will do whatever they want to catch as many as waves as they can. Now I, I agree. I don't think you should go dropping in on someone and pushing them into the reef and being passive aggressive about it. But neither should you just say nothing. Paddle up to him, look him in the eye. If he's not willing to have a conversation, he keeps doing what he's doing well hey, maybe, maybe then drop in on him 'cause he is not listening and he, so I, I think I, I agree with you. I just think that the, the rule surfing has no rules. You know, I think that's the beauty about surfing. But yes, there are ethical practices to make sure that lineups are safe. 'cause at the end of the day, it's a safety issue, right? If someone's gonna be like that, people are gonna get frustrated, they're gonna make bad decisions, they're gonna drop in on some, on him, on a long board, someone's gonna get hurt, whether it's a wave of consequence or not. So it does come back to a safety issue. So if, if, if someone like red shorts is, is being a dick and at a, at a surf break where there's no real shallow reef or anything, the consequences are people are gonna get frustrated with him and a long board's gonna get in somewhere. So maybe it's up to one of the elders to actually pull this guy aside and say, Hey look. You're active, this is the way you're acting, this is the way people in the lineup are seeing you. Just letting you know, yes you are, you're a good surfer. You can paddle deeper than everyone else, but this is how people are experiencing you Holly Beck: just to, and, and I think that having, having these conversations helps spread that idea because I think that a lot of people, like in, in this particular case, there's not really elders at this spot. You know? Like this is a, the spot that you kind of used to be a secret spot. And now a lot of people that surf there, like they're just that, that doesn't really like, I guess I'm the elder in this case, like I was, I find myself at this spot a lot. Like I don't feel like I normally would count as an elder, but I'm kind of filling that role as someone that surfs there a long time, has the surfing skill to kind of back it up and feels like I can speak up. But there's plenty of other people in the water who are surf there a lot longer than this guy. But I think they don't feel empowered. To stick up because that isn't what they've been taught. Like, I think it goes back to this thing like the, to popularize the idea that if someone is taking too many waves, like that isn't okay. Like we should be taking turns. And that doesn't mean that the actual, you know, old man that's been serving there forever, that's 70 years old that doesn't catch that many waves and he's finally gonna go and not look. Of course I'm gonna say, yeah, you go, you know, there's some element of, you know, respecting these certain individuals, but with the idea that the respect goes both ways. Right. I, I think a, a lot of times also when I have this conversation, or at least when, when I was having it on the keyboard through Instagram and I was getting so frustrated because I couldn't actually have a conversation. A lot of the keyboard warriors were saying, if, if people sitting on the shoulder wanna catch more waves, they should just sit deeper. And, and I feel like that goes against it because it's like, if. At this break, again, as I say, like there's the, the steeper top takeoff and then it's a really long wave with a nice sloping shoulder. And there are a lot of kind of advanced beginners or lower intermediate surfers that ride fishes and mid lengths and even long boards sitting at this break. And if the only way to tell them, the only way they can catch a wave is by being deepest, then that invites all of them to have to go sit at the top of the point. But they don't wanna sit at the top of the point. And if we said you on the long board, that's really better off sitting on the shoulder. The only way that you can get in position to have your turn come up is to sit at the top of the point. That's actually what's endangering people. So the better practice is for the surfers at the top of the point to occasionally let some waves go. Have it not always be the surfer at the very top of the points priority, just because they're capable of sitting deepest. Because the alternative is to have these surfers have to sit further up and then they're not as competent. And if they do wipe out, they're right in the thick of things. Like I would rather that surfer sit further down the shoulder and after I've had a few waves and here I am on another wave and I see this beginner surfer on the shoulder that still hasn't had one, like I should kick out and be like, you go, I'm not gonna do it on the very best wave that comes in. Right. But like, it should be their turn, it should be their priority. Hmm. And, and, and I feel like that's you, you don't agree. How are they ever gonna be good enough to sit at the top of the point if they're never allowed to catch a wave? Michael Frampton: Yeah, no. Uh. I see your point of view. However, it it, it makes me think of, uh, , I, I haven't surfed in this place. I haven't surfed in this culture. It's hard for me to comment. So let me give you an, like, I surfed first Point Malibu a lot and yeah, nowadays there's a handful of surf instructors on the inside pushing kooks into wave cos like people with lack of awareness, people there for the tourist experience, quite frankly, people that should be practicing how to stand up on a surfboard in the whitewash at Zuma Beach where there's no one else around. Now if I, now, if I spend an hour sitting on the peak waiting for my turn for a set wave at Malibu first point, and I finally get one of these waves. And I managed to surf it most of the way through. And this is at the end of the section. I wanna finish off with a nice nose right and glide out. But no, so-and-so's pushing soft top in my way. I'm no, I I should have been allowed to do two more turns on that wave and you should actually be at a different break learning how, even though this wave is catchable here, it's still actually quite a rippable wave for good surfers. Just 'cause it's harder to catch further up doesn't mean that you get to catch the last part of the wave. So Holly Beck: I agree with you a hundred percent and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm, I'm talking about, let's say. You, I'm sure you're very capable of sitting steep and deep in Malibu. And Malibu is maybe not the best example, but let's just use it. I know how Malibu at sitting at the top. It can be a little steeper and then it's a little easier to get in on the shoulder, right? And we're not talking about like the a plus day where all the pros are out and it's, it's crazy. Just an average day at Malibu, and I'm not talking about the beginner on the soft top, getting pushed in by an instructor. We're not talking about that guy. Talking about the maybe one level down and skill from you, however you would define that. Not as good as you, but like aspiring to be as good as you, almost as good as you. Not quite as good at taking off steep and deep, not quite as able to sit late underneath all the crowd. Little bit more nervous about sitting there, wants to sit a little further over to have a little bit more time on their popup, but they're capable of getting up and riding down the wave. Without such a pressure situation. Mm-hmm. It's more like that person. It's that person that is, is also paying their dues, is also waiting their turn has watched you get a few good ones. Okay. You've been sitting for an hour and you haven't had one. No, please don't give your wave away for this person, but I'm talking after you've had a few and everyone else sitting with you has had a few, and you've paddled past this person that's just sitting like 10 feet over, 15 feet over because they just don't have the, whatever, the confidence, the experience mm-hmm. To sit. As steep and deep. That's the person I'm talking about. Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. I've been that person. Yep. I've, I'm there. I'm there. There's no way. When I, when I was that person, there's no part of me that would paddle out to halfway up the point at first point Malibu and expect someone to pull off after having caught the wave at the peak and give me a wave. No, I'm there to get the scraps. I'm there to get the wide sets that do come through that the other, that the guys sitting at the point don't want. And I will sit up into the point and I'll watch them and I'll learn from, and I'll put hours upon hours into that wave to learn how that wave breaks before. Now I, now you've, and now Holly Beck: you've gotten a little closer and that, that's good. Michael Frampton: Yep. Holly Beck: Good job doing that. And now you've gotten a little closer. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and the idea that what if there's a guy that can take off four feet deeper than you and every single time he paddles past you Every time. Michael Frampton: Yep. Holly Beck: Because he is like, I live here. I live right here on the point. Michael Frampton: That's not why, but he's just more skillful and knows the wave better. Holly Beck: Or, or maybe he's, maybe you guys are equal. Maybe he's actually an equal server, but the fact that he lives there gives him a certain amount of entitlement and knows everyone else in the water. Mm-hmm. Like, wouldn't it be nice, wouldn't it be more enjoyable for you if he didn't paddle past you every single time? Michael Frampton: So I, and just said, Holly Beck: I'm going, Michael Frampton: I, I also lived in Sydney and I used to surf a slab, like quite a difficult wave. And the takeoff zone is very small. Only about five people can even sit there. So, and I spent, gosh, it was, I, I surfed there for hours every single day for at least a year before I was allowed to get a set wave. And there is no part of me that thought, oh my God, I wish you had just given me a turn. Or, you know what I mean? Now, partly 'cause it's a safety issue as like I, they knew whether consciously or not, I didn't have the skill to take off right at the deepest part of the wave. 'cause I might've got dragged along the reef and I, I certainly wasn't a local. And so I got the scraps and I caught the ones on the shoulders for years. And then every now and then I paddle out early in the morning and there's no one out. And I got to paddle. I got to take a few from the takeoff point, and I, I worked my way up. So I've, I've been in these situations. I can understand why people new to surfing think that, oh no, shouldn't I just be allowed a turn? How do I, how else am I gonna get good at taking off deep without, unless you give me a turn at doing it. So I, I see your point, and I see newcomers coming at this from this perspective, but I also see the tradition and I, I, okay, some locals take it to the extreme and aren't necessarily doing it for reasons of safety and culture and ethics and stuff. They just want their waves. But we also have to deal with those people 'cause they're not gonna change their ways either. So. Well, Holly Beck: I think it's sometimes it's hard to, when we've grown up in this culture and, and we like, it's like that. I, I hear you and I can relate to the fact that I paid my dues. Now you have to pay your dues. It's, it's almost like that the whole culture of like hazing, you know, like the seniors beat up on the freshmen and, and then those freshmen grow up and be seniors and then they beat up on the freshmen and, and it just like the cycle or I know in the fire service my partners of was, is a retired firefighter and talks about like in the fire services the same way like the young guys have to do the grunt jobs because that is how it's always been. But if you take a moment to separate from that and think, but should it be that way? It's like, yes, we had to deal with that. We got yelled at and kept on the inside and forced to sit on the shoulder, you know? And because, and now because we survived through that and got to the other side, now we're gonna expect that everybody else has to do it too. Like, I, I get that, but it's just the question of, and, and I think again, like. When you're talking about pipeline or this slab or first point Malibu, it's a harder conversation to have. But what I see is that even at inconsequential waves, you know, and we're not, again, we're not talking about like the beginner getting pushed in on the soft top. I agree with that too, but what I'm talking about is the more like the middle ground, the average surf session, the e similar inability levels, but maybe this one's a little better than that one and, and it still happens. There's still this idea that like, if I surf better than you, or if I'm more from this spot. Then I get more and, and it the only, I just don't think that it's like, you know, you go to the grocery store and you wait in line. And even if it's really crowded and there's only one checkout counter for like so many grocery shoppers, like nobody's expecting that if you live next door to the grocery store or you've been surf or checking out at that grocery store for 20 years, that you get to cut the line. You know? And it's like, why in surfing do we decide that if you're really good at grocery shopping and you live right next door and you've been shopping at that grocery store since you were a little tiny kid, that you get to go to the front of the line and nope, sorry, you just gotta pay your dues. And then one day when you put in the time, you'll get to where I am. And, and I understand when it's a safety issue. A hundred percent agree. And yes, a beginner that should be writing whitewash should not be taken to the top of the point. I see that at this wave too. I see surf instructor, we, we don't bring our clients to the top of the point. We have them sit at the bottom of the point because they don't need to be riding those waves. But if we get a guest that is a competent surfer that knows those how to surf, we're not pushing them in, we're just sort of guiding or coaching them, then they should be able to go out to show respect, to wait their turn. And then when they've done all those things and the set wave comes, not have somebody that's lived there longer back paddle them or drop in on them or tell them that they should be sitting down the beach just 'cause they're not from there. And, and I feel like whenever we have this conversation, it always goes to the extremes. In the extreme, I agree with you. But just to start moving in that direction. Because even in the extremes, if, if I think that if part of culture, surfing culture was this idea that if we're all catching waves, the lineup is a healthier, happier place. And, and yeah, if you are being dangerous, then please go down the line. But like if we're all out there together, then the locals and the better surfs, they're gonna get more waves, they're gonna get more set waves. But that doesn't mean that they have more right to those set waves. Like the other person should have the opportunity to try for a set wave and if they fall, they fall, that's okay. That was their turn. There's no such thing as a wasted wave. Whether I caught the wave and rode it all the way to the beach, or I caught the wave and blew my popup and fell, that was my turn. I could do whatever I want with my turn. If I'm riding a thin looks board and I blow it. That's, but Michael Frampton: the, well, with the irony, the irony there is depending on the break, but in a lot of places, if you don't get, if you stuff up your turn, you don't get another turn. Right. Not that, not that day anyway. I, I, I see what you're saying in terms of the, I don't disagree with you. But it's so hard for me to comment having never surfed this specific place, Holly Beck: and I'm just using this spot as an example. Like I, today I surfed a whatever beach break right out front. But I noticed the same factors at play. The, the locals that all knew each other, that are speaking each other in Spanish, and they see me as the blonde girl and they think that I don't live here and I don't speak Spanish, and they paddle straight past me to the top of the point, you know, I'm sitting there waiting for it, not the point, the peak where I'm at a beach break. I'm sitting here waiting for my wave. I know exactly the wave I'm looking for. I know how to surf. And the guy just paddles right around the side of me, you know? And I'm just like, you didn't need to do that. We're at a beach break. It's not even very good. There's plenty of ways coming in, like just because you live here, you don't need to assert your dominance and paddle around the other side of me. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yep. Yeah. No, I, I I, I, I do agree with you. It's just so nuanced and so, um, I mean, surfing has a hierarchy of competence. There's no, and yeah, I'm using extreme waves like Malibu and pipeline to, and we all always seem to go there, but I think sometimes when you're trying to make a point, it's good to talk about the extremes because what's on the other side of it, like, okay, let's say go to ATU and there's an 18 second swell coming in. And have you, have you surfed, I'm assuming you've surfed ATU before? Holly Beck: Yeah, not a ton, but I have. Michael Frampton: But even just walking down the stairs to get to paddle out is tough. But the amount of people that I saw out surfing. ATU on soft tops and just having no idea what they're doing. And there's locals up on the cliff whistling at them 'cause they've gone too far and they come reef cuts. It's just like, I can see why, like if you're a good Aussie surfer and you want to go to ATU to surf in 18 seconds swell, and then you try and catch one of these crazy waves and there's just a bunch of people flailing in front of you. It's really frustrating. Can, can they manage to catch one of these waves and ride along? Yeah, sure they can, but they're putting themselves and other people at risk in doing it. So when I read, we see articles coming at it from the other extreme on stab where Aussie surfers are sick of these tourist kooks getting in the way and hurting themselves. And you see that that's another extreme right. People are taking this entitlement. It's my turn. Holly Beck: That's, but that's not what we're talking about. Michael Frampton: No, I know, but it feeds, it does feed into it a little bit. Because you can see if you've, there's Holly Beck: always based on the idea that you are capable of surfing this spot if you are a beginner, and yeah, you could take off on a wave and go straight, but like you're dangerous to yourself and others. You shouldn't be out there. I'm not saying that, Michael Frampton: but that's why Holly Beck: the extremes. I agree with you a hundred percent. Michael Frampton: But that, that's what I'm saying is that a wave like ATU is a very tricky takeoff spot. Holly Beck: Yeah. Michael Frampton: You can sit a bit further down and get into one of those waves a lot easier, but if someone has put the time and effort in to become a a surfer, good enough to take off. At the spot at ATU and they finally get one and they get barreled and they come out and they're like, come out to the softer part of the wave and they wanna rip a few turns as well. And then there's some person, oh, it's my turn to go. 'cause this is the easier part of the wave. I would say to that person, you're surfing the wrong spot. If you can't take off at the deepest gnarliest part of that point, break that peels all the way through, go somewhere else. So if I'm a local and I've negotiated the, the barrel section of a point break, and yes it's sections, but I wanna do some cutbacks as well on that wave and someone thinks, oh, but it's my turn. First of all, I, I'm surfing 50 meters up the line. I don't know whether you've just caught eight waves or not. I don't know whether it's your turn or not. So whilst I see it's frustrating for the, the beginner intermediate to sit on the shoulder and catch some good waves at a point break. I'm also thinking, shit, maybe you should be at a point break where it's not as tricky to negotiate or at a beach break practicing to get good enough to actually sit closer to the point. Maybe not to fight for the set waves right at the point, but to at least be seen to be competent by that group that are doing it. So maybe they will, you know, okay, that's not a great set wave. You, you go on the shoulder. Do you see what I'm saying? The the, the, I do Holly Beck: and I agree with you and I agree and that's where I feel like there's so much nuance because what I think what I'm saying is, yeah, you're the guy and you've gotten the sick barrel and the wave is still going and you wanna do like five round house cutbacks. You should absolutely do that. But maybe on the next wave that you get, you come out of the barrel and now you're like, you know what, I already, I just rode that last one all the way to the beach and did five cutbacks. But actually the part of the wave I'm enjoying the most is the top with the barrel and. I could do five more cutbacks on this wave again. But I also see this long borderer really wanting to have one. And you know what? I, I'm just gonna kick out and let them go. It's not because you have to, it's because that is what's actually gonna make you a better surfer in the water and the long boarder paddles back out and you've made their, that got the best wave of their trip. Right. You're not gonna do it every single time, and you're a hundred percent entitled to ride that wave all the way through. But I think again, like it just, the, the guy that's done the barrel and wants to do the cutbacks, he doesn't need to do that on 15 waves. Right. But, but like, that's not what we're teaching. We are teaching them. Yeah, I'm the guy and I can do that on every single wave because I have more right to surfing than you because I'm a better surfer and I live here and you're a danger, go somewhere else. You know, and, and I, and I feel like it might not be that person's fault. Like they might be there with their better surfing partner who's also up at the top of the wave. They would love to go somewhere else. They don't wanna be there, but for whatever reason, this is where they are. This is where they happen to be, and they're trying their best to stay out of their way. They don't wanna hurt you. They don't wanna mess up your wave, you know? And, and I think that's the conversation. And it is so nuanced, you know, because I don't think that they have the right to drop in on you just because it's their turn. I'm not saying that. Mm-hmm. But I feel like if I, as the good surfer, have now changed my mindset, believe me, I wanna go out there and get mine. I'm a busy mom. I don't get to surf as much as I used to. I have sessions when I go out there and I just need to get a couple waves and I'm gonna go get those waves. But after I've had a couple, I'm way more likely with this change of mindset to be like, if I give a wave away. Like, call it karma or just line up good vibes or whatever. Like, I'm gonna stoke this person out. I don't need, I don't need to do three more cutbacks on this wave. I really don't need to, I'm gonna be seen as a better surfer. I'm gonna be more enjoyable to surf with. I'm gonna be more respected in the water. I, if I do kick outta this one, you know, if I go to paddle for Wave, I'm deepest. It's a fun shoulder, high wave, but here's this competent, lesser skilled surfer sitting nearby that I know I've paddled around three times already, because they can't sit as deep. They don't wanna sit as deep, like, maybe I am just gonna let this wave go. I don't need it. You know? Mm-hmm. I don't have to do that. That's the choice I'm making. But that's the Right, that's the ethical thing. If we're talking about ethics, surfing ethics, like that would be the more ethical thing to do. And if more people surf like that, better surfers than me, surf like that, then when I'm at a spot that's like in my challenge zone. And if there was someone in the water that has had four waves, that I'm sitting a little bit on the shoulder 'cause I'm kind of feeling nervous and I'm learning from them and I'm trying to figure out the positioning and I'm kind of nervous to go. And they look at me and they're like, Hey, go. I'm gonna be so stoked. It's like that paying it forward, like we were all beginners. And I think that now the culture is, I was a beginner and I suffered, and therefore you have to suffer. But imagine that you could go back and be that beginner and the more experienced surfer was there to kind of support you and lend you a hand, and then you were the one paying that forward. Like, I don't know, it's such a utopian vision that doesn't exist. But we can create that if that's the conversation that starts happening. And you're right that there's gonna be people that are not gonna change. But you know, I'm 45, those people are getting older. Eventually they're gonna need knee replacements and hip replacements, and they're gonna be on a long board sitting on the shoulder. And it, it's the surfers that are learning to surf now that are gonna make the culture going forward. So can we shift the conversation at least a little bit? Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. We definitely can. And aga

Are you truly seeing the wave - or are you missing the subtle signals that could transform your surfing forever? Many surfers hit a performance plateau because they focus only on big maneuvers and ignore the foundational skills that unlock flow, control, and wave mastery. In this “Best of” episode, discover the overlooked mental and physical shifts that elite surfers use to elevate their performance - without needing better waves or a new board.   Learn how to “read” the ocean and see opportunities in every wave, just like world champion Tom Carroll. Discover why the best surfers don’t think balance - they feel it, and how you can train your instincts to surf with more fluidity. Get a simple yet powerful breakdown of how waves and surfboards work, and why leaning - not forcing - is the secret to rail surfing. Hit play now to uncover the three timeless surf insights that will sharpen your focus, deepen your feel, and transform how you approach every session. www.surfmastery.com  Quotes from Episodes 2,3 and 14. Music: "make a smile" Anthony Mea

Are you wasting energy every time you paddle out — and missing waves because of it? Most surfers spend 99% of their time in the water not actually riding waves. They're paddling, positioning, sitting, or struggling to get back out — and often doing it inefficiently. If you're tired of burning out in the lineup and still not catching the waves you want, this episode is for you. Discover the three most common ways surfers waste energy — and how to fix them to catch more waves with less effort. Learn why your pop-up is the most important move in surfing — and how improving it could change everything. Explore how shifting from a fixed to a growth mindset will fast-track your progression and elevate your surfing experience. Listen now to learn how to become a “lazy surfer” — and start catching more waves with far less effort. Rob’s Website: https://www.surfingpaddling.com Episode Summary:In this episode, Michael Frampton welcomes back surf paddling expert Rob Case to dive deep into the often-overlooked side of surfing: everything that happens before you stand up. They explore the massive role paddling technique plays in wave-catching, the evolution of surf coaching, and the mindset shift needed for adult learners to truly progress. Rob discusses insights from his new book, shares practical ways to reduce energy waste in the water, and explains why becoming a "lazy surfer" might be the smartest thing you can do. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned surfer, this conversation will change the way you look at the ocean and your time in it. Key Points:Paddling is Most of Surfing: Rob highlights that around 99% of surfing is not standing on a wave — it’s paddling, positioning, and ocean awareness. The Three Biggest Energy Wasters: Most surfers waste energy in paddling, wave-catching, and getting back out after a ride. Rob explains how improving technique in each area leads to more waves and less burnout. Why Pop-Ups Matter Most: The takeoff is surfing’s most dynamic and demanding move. Mastering it is key to consistent, confident wave-riding. The Art vs. Sport Debate: Surfing is both art and sport. Treating it like an art form invites deeper curiosity and long-term progression. The Growth Mindset Advantage: Adult learners can progress quickly by being deliberate and focused — and by embracing the role of student. Becoming a “Lazy Surfer”: Rob’s coaching philosophy is about helping surfers do more with less: catch more waves, waste less energy, and surf with more efficiency and grace. The Value of Observation & Ocean Reading: Watching the ocean with purpose, understanding swell periods, currents, and timing are vital skills to develop. Behind the Book: Rob shares the challenges and revelations of writing his new book — and why it’s designed to give every surfer access to paddling mastery, regardless of budget. Transcript: SMP126RobCase Michael Frampton: welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps surfers to catch more waves and surf with more speed, style, and grace. Today we have a return guest, uh, as Rob Case. He first appeared back in episode 12 and then again in episode 91, and Rob specializes in surfing, paddling, or paddling for surfing. Now I have just released a course, which is all about what you do or improving what you do between when the surfboard is under your arm and when the surfboard is under your feet, because every other surfing course is all about what do you do when you're standing up. However, 99. Maybe more. 99% of what we do when we are surfing is not actually surfing. It is sitting there looking at the ocean, trying to predict where waves are coming or paddling around trying to catch them. The thing is, what I mentioned in my course I don't specialize in is paddling, which is a lot of that time is spent paddling. , I refer that to Rob, that is Rob's specialty. And, , ideally you can get in front of Rob and do a one-on-one, , in Northern California or get to one of his courses and, , get some hands-on experience if you can't do that. He's got an awesome YouTube channel and his own podcast and he's just released a book. Rob Case: Yeah, that's awesome. Michael Frampton: So you can, you can get into the details of it. Rob, welcome back to the show. Why the book? That's a Rob Case: good, good question. , It's a good sleeping aid. Have you, have you tried that yet? I listened to my own, my own podcast to get to sleep. , Now the book, the book was, I, I wanted it as another avenue for surfers to get the information, but what I realized as I was writing it, and it took several years to finally get it completed, but. As I'm kind of going through it and putting it together, I'm realizing that I can put a lot more detail, as you said, into the book, , than I can into the online course on the videos. So a lot of the things that I was saying to clients when we were working one-on-one and in person or in the small groups, I, I didn't have in the online course. Those little nuances, , of clarification and the book allowed me to have all this time and space to kind of put all that in for those that really wanted that. , So that, that was kind of the main purpose for the book, , was just a, another avenue, but also to allow people that want those nuances that, that, that actually learn better by text,, to, to get that kind of avenue. , And then also, you know, to allow people that can't afford my in-person stuff to get the information anyway, so now I. Nobody really has an excuse not to work on paddling technique. Right. Or to learn about it. Right. , Before it was, I can't afford your in person, which I totally understand. That's, and so I did the online course and okay, that's too expensive. Okay, now you got the book there. There's really nothing. And then I even have free resources like the YouTube and my blog and the podcast. So no excuse. If you really want to improve your paddling technique, and I'll clarify that. I work on paddling technique, not so much fitness. I, I do have fitness, but fitness is more other people's realms. Um, I'm, I'm really focused on the movement and, um, driving that, that, uh, neural pathway in your brain so that you're doing it over and over again without having to think about it as, as you've witnessed and been a part of. Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. I'm witnessed and been a part of it in many levels. When a, you know, when a 12-year-old kid on. Shortboard paddles past you and you think that you're a good paddler, and you're like, what is he doing? And it wasn't, I always thought, you know, before I, um, came across your work, I always thought I was just stronger somehow. He surfs more than me. Or, but no, it's all about efficiency and, and, and technique. And interestingly, it's something not a lot of surfers really, really think about. Um, they have the same attitude I used to have before discovering your work. They sort of just dismiss it as, oh, it's something that experienced surfers do or gifted athletes sort of naturally have. But no, you can, uh, you can definitely learn it. And I like the fact that there is a book because. You know, you've, some people learn by reading a book and the book gives you so much room to add more details. , That's how we've learned throughout history a lot of the time is books, you know, videos and stuff are quite, quite new. , And you think of any other individual sport like tennis or golf, there's, there's go on Amazon, there's books galore. Yeah, it's, it's kind of strange. There's not that many books on surfing. I dunno why. Um, I guess surfing's such a new thing and certainly, you know, accepting that you are a surf nerd and you want to really learn that's even newer than surfing itself. You know, even 10 years ago it certainly wasn't cool to have a, a surf coach or to analyze your paddling technique. I think now it's becoming a lot more accepted. , There still is a little bit of that there, but, I mean, I, gosh, I remember watching. Was it, it, I think Olo, when Olo first surfed the box and he openly admitted that he, he had been up since 4:00 AM practicing his popups on his bed. So Really? Yeah. So even the best in the world, they actually, behind the scenes, you'd be surprised how much work they're putting in and how much geeking out that they're doing in order just to get that much better than their competitors. And, , you know, there's no reason why we as surfers just, you know, as recreational surfers, just, I remember going through a phase where I was so, I kind of thought surfing was the selfish pursuit and, you know, why would I, you know, there's, why would I bother putting all that time and effort into it? And then I realized, you know, who cares? It's surfing's my thing. I'm gonna give it everything I got. And, , that stage in my life where I really obsessed about surfing and was, you know, reading books on how to read water and taking fitness courses and doing, spending time, coming to see you and, and watching your content. That obsessed, that period of time where I obsessed over everything surfing. , I never regret that. And it, it's amazing how much better you can become. Rob Case: Yeah, absolutely. I, it's funny you kind of stirred something in my brain why surfing is so late to the game for getting information, for having books, for having coaches and you know, like every other sport like you said, has these things. So is it, is it because we just have never really viewed it as a sport? Or have we never viewed it as a serious sport? Or is it not a sport? You know, those are the debatable questions. I, I think the Olympics really helped quite a bit. 'cause leading up to the acceptance in the Olympics. And even before that, MC Fanning kind of started it all well before that. But the Olympics I think really rocketed coaching to a huge degree. And I get really serious surfers come to me now, and they're, they're very open-minded. And I'm always, I'm always kind of like, okay, well how do I, how skeptical is this person that's, that's always, you know, kind of these old school minded surfers that don't really think that technique is going to change anything. And, uh, they're becoming much more open minded as they walk in the door, as, uh, as opposed to 10 years ago when I started the in-person stuff. So, really interesting that you brought that up. Um, yeah, I don't know. I don't, what do you think, do you think it's 'cause of the Olympics? Do you think it's just the evolution of, of the demographic of surfers? So there's a lot new surfers that are older now. They're thinkers. Um, as opposed to when we started it was like, oh, we're just kids. And, you know, the kids really held up the industry, but now not so much. Michael Frampton: I, I think it's, it's more psychological than anything. , And it can often start with how you define surfing. , Like you mentioned, what is it a sport? , I like to define surfing as an art more than anything else. , And you might think, oh, that takes away from training as a sport. Well, actually no, it doesn't because you think of music and if you're into music, then you'd learn music theory and you practice. You learn if you're playing guitar, you learn your scales and your chord shapes and you, you practice your timing with, with a metronome or, and so that you can play. Yeah. Right. You practice your fundamentals, right? Yeah, exactly. Or if you're an artist, you might spend a week doing doism, learning a different style of, or using a different type of paint or a different type of brush. You're not actually creating art per se. You're just learning to use a new technique or, or a new piece of equipment or, or even a new form of art. And you go, a painter might try sculpture for a while and come back to painting. And so I think if we have that attitude as a surfer where it's an art and it gives it a bit more depth, first of all, than it just being a sport or a recreational activity, , I think that helps us to be more fascinated and obsessed and immersed in surfing. And it almost gives yourself permission to, to dive in deeper and think. 'cause I mean, logically think about it, most of the time I don't stand up on my board. Why am I watching all these, why am I watching all these bottom turn and top turn techniques when. I actually just really want to catch more waves. Really? Yeah. Because that's what it's about. So I should probably be better at paddling and better at reading the ocean. , And better at choosing breaks that aren't as crowded and better at choosing the right surfboard for the conditions. Like being a better surfer is, I think the technique of your bottom turn, et cetera, is such a small, small part of it. And I think it's, first of all, it's great that a lot of people are diving into that mm-hmm. And getting better at that stuff. But I think it's, it's often misguided because it's so hard to, to be focused in the moment, to change the way you bottom turn, you've gotta get it's, you've gotta get everything else right first. Yeah. You've gotta be a confident Rob Case: waterman. I tell you guys all the time, like, I have the easy job. I can make somebody take thousands of strokes and I can correct them, you know, within the first five. Whereas a surf coach, you need a designated part on the, on the wave. , The wave needs to be shaped a certain way. They need to be balanced, they need to be of sound consciousness to do something that you've told them to do. There's, like you said, there's all these nuances just to that one thing and everything happens so quickly. How is a surf coach ever able to really get that repetitive motor learning? It's, it's, it's, it's really difficult. It's really, really difficult. So I, I have the easy job and I, I stop when people stand up and then I'm like, I hand it off. I'm like, go, go, go work with a, a great surf coach. But yeah, it is a difficult job. Um, but I, you know, I think on an extension to that is. Surfers that are listening to this, the surfers that come, come to me are, are growth-minded. It, it's, it's like you said, it's like a mindset. You are looking at art versus sport, but I think it's more just almost like a learning mindset. Are you open-minded? Are you, a growth kind of mindset? In which case, yeah, you're gonna get better at really anything you do. , You're gonna try to find resources to get better at those things. Whereas a fixed mindset, they're kind of just happy where they're at. You know, they don't really want change until a, a, something devastating possibly happens. You know, like they get an injury. Yeah. Or. They, they're not able to get up to the feet anymore, or they're not able to catch waves anymore, or, you know, something stirs that there's an event that happens that then stirs them to become more growth minded. Um, and, and I find that, it's funny when I, when I do, I do little trips, um, with clients and they're like, oh man, everybody's so cool on this trip. Like, where do you find all these people? I'm like, I, I don't, they come to me, you know? But I think there's a way in which I share my information that kind of weeds out the fixed minded folks from the growth minded folks. And I think that's one thing I've, I've very happy that I feel like I've designed that and I get the best clients out of it, which is, you know, and they're not just, they're not just great to work with. They're just good people. You know? They're always wanting to learn and they're challenging me all the time, which is fantastic too. So, uh, yeah, it's been a, it's been a fun ride, I think you said. Earlier you're like, wow. I think our first conversation in 2016, I started the in-person in 2015. I started the online and virtual coaching in 2011. So it's been a long time and, and there's been a, a bit of evolution and back then it was really just about helping surfers catch more waves was less effort. That was always the tagline. And then it, it, it evolved into kind of helping them catch waves at that point. 'cause as we've discussed, 90% of the paddling we do is just paddling around. Right. And I, I think within the last. Two years or so, I, I've realized that my overall philosophy is I just want to create lazy surfers, and I, let me explain what I mean by that. But it's basically, I want them to be able to catch the most ways with the least amount of effort. And what I found is that there's an extraordinary amount of energy waste that's happening in the ocean with surfers. And they're, they're really, if you look at it, there's three main areas where surfers. Waste the most energy and it's one is paddling. And a lot of that can be cleaned up through technique first, and then there's also fitness on top of that can help. So that's, that's the number one thing. That's level one, right? That's, that's my level one. But then level two goes into the other two areas and, uh, another area where surfers burn a lot of energy and they don't really have to, they're just inefficient with their energy is wave catching. So you could, you can work really, really hard and not catch the wave. That's the ultimate waste. You could work really, really hard and then go over the falls. That's, you know, it's wave catching and kind of popping up. Both of those are together, you know, standing up. If they're not fluid with that, if they don't have control, they're bored, then they're gonna burn energy 'cause they're gonna end up in the impact zone. You could even see advanced surface that do catch waves, but they're taking 10, 11, 12 strokes to get it. That's ineff inefficient. So something in that process can be improved. So that's the second area where I see just tons of surfers burning a lot of energy. And then the last area that I realized just in the last couple years when I've kind of refined level two is getting out strategy and technique. And it's, some of that's paddling. Yes, but, but the strategy of getting out, I can't tell you how many times I've seen this. Surfer catches first, second wave of the set, gets to the inside, turns around, immediately starts paddling back out. There's still a set coming in, there's still waves coming in, and they're going towards the impact zone. Thinking in their mind that they're going to make it to the last wave and get the last wave of the set. Now you're laughing because you know what, in reality, you know, 99% of the time they do make it out and then the way the ocean goes flat, right? And they're like, oh, thank goodness I made it out. But what an extraordinary amount of wasted energy, you know, after your wave just kind of hang out. Wait, you can duck dive, you can turtle ro, you can sea anchor all these waves with less energy and then wait for the set to pass and then go out, right? Yeah. And that's just, that's just one example of just getting out strategy and technique that there, there's, there's an extraordinary amount of waste that's happening. Uh, and so level, level one is all about that first one technique. And then level two. Now really the main focus, the main goal is saving energy in those other areas. It's, it's wave catching and it's popping up and it's getting out. And, uh, it's been really fun to kind of go down that route with surfers because I start to introduce 'em in level one. And then by the time I get to level two, they're, they're piecing it all together. And now they're like, a lot of 'em are kind of angry. They're like, man, I used to use surfing as like an exercise. Now I am the ultimate lazy surfer and not spending a lot of time, uh, a lot of energy, um, surfing, which, uh, which is really fun. So for me, kind of the end of my journey is once I finish the level two online class, that's kind of my next big project. The book was a huge project for me. And then once the online level two is done, then I'll, I won't stop. I'll just, there's no more growing for me in that respect. And then I'll just kind of figure out what that point, what's, what's the next kind of coaching growth for me. But that's, that's my overall goal. Um. Really just came to me in the process of writing this book and, and conducting a lot of level twos lately. Michael Frampton: Oh cool. Yeah, that's a great tip. Yeah, I didn't even articulate, but I realize I do do that. If I catch the first wave of a set and I want to paddle back out, I don't, I just stay 'cause the wave breaks and it dissipates. You can just kind of stay on the inside and glide over or gently duck dive the white water and all that water's coming in, it's gotta go back out. So the last wave of the set, once I've duck dive that, that's when I put in the paddling effort and you, you're going with the water drawing back out and you probably only have to duck dive the, you know, the, the secondary waves that are in between the main swell sets. Exactly. Rob Case: Yeah. And it's crazy. And it goes back to what you're talking about is, is being obsessed with learning about the ocean. If, if you don't know what's in the water that day, what, what? Types of swells, what periods, what direction you, you're already at a disadvantage because if, if someone listens to this right now and they're like, okay, every time I catch a wave, I'm gonna wait on the inside. But they don't realize it's a short period swell and there's no real break, then what's the strategy? You know? Exactly. You know, like if they're not aware of where the currents are flowing, what's their strategy like, they're just gonna burn energy. Uh, and that I, I like you, I just nerd out on the oceanography side of it and learning more about the ocean. And as experienced surfers, I think you were the one that said it when you took level two with me in the very early days, you were like, yeah, this is great information. It was something that I kind of already knew. An experienced surfer and you were like, I think a lot of experienced surfers know this stuff, but we couldn't connect the why right Now we can connect their why. Like, okay, now I get it, why we would do this. But you ultimately learned it through all the years of learning about the ocean and learning about waves and learning and just getting out there in trial and error, which was really, I remember that you, you telling me that and I was like, oh, that's a Michael Frampton: really, really good point. Mm-hmm. Well, it goes back to what we started the conversation with is if, if you, if you grew up on the east coast of Australia and your dad and your uncle surfed and you've had a surfboard since you were four years old, by the time you are, by the time you are 17. You've got so much experience, you've picked up so much from your elders that you don't even realize and you don't even know what you, so of course you can go to Bali and just get on the tangs and go out and get barreled at double overhead waves, of course, without even thinking. You don't have to nerd out about any of this stuff. But the listeners of this show are most likely didn't surf that much when they were younger, or probably more likely started as as adults. So you've got like 12, 15 years worth of information to try and pack in as an adult with a, a non rubbery body. Yeah, you have to, if you want to get, if you truly really wanna get good at surfing, you have to start getting into some of the weeds and the details of this stuff. Uh, 'cause you didn't have that luxury as a 4-year-old with a, a dad who, who, who surfs living next to the beach. So I think culturally that's, that's part of it. Um, and. It's amazing what you can, when you start breaking it down, it's amazing how fast and quickly you can learn. And once you know what to look for in the ocean, then yeah, you're gonna learn so much faster. That's, I think it's an advantage, like the experience in that, that adult brain, you can learn a lot faster than a kid learns in some ways. Well, Rob Case: when there's, yeah. When there's, explicit instruction, and that's what you and I are guiding more adults with, and that's what the really, the book is. It's funny when I have, uh, parents bring their kind of up and coming competitive kids and they're, you know, they're like 10, 11, and they're like, I really want you to teach my kid about paddling technique. I was like, okay. They'll go through the whole level one course in like 20 minutes. Like they're, they get it like that. Their neuroplasticity is so fluid and I don't need to tell them anything explicit. I just say, all right, get in the pool. Okay. What do you feel? Okay. Straighten that arm out. Okay, do it again. Whereas with an adult, I have to explain, okay, this is, these are the drag forces you're experiencing. This is why we need to do this. And as an adult, we process so many more things, but we learn explicitly versus the implicit learning of a child who can go out and just do trial and error. And that's, even yesterday, I was in the ocean with a client and I said, I said, listen, there's, there's a certain point where you need to be less hesitant to go because you think you're going to fall, and then you need to be less precious with the waves you surf because. You're not going to progress. You need to be a kid sometimes and just try stuff. Right. And as adults, like kids don't care. Like they really don't care if they fall. They're like, Hey, check this out. Boom. And be precious with your strokes and be a little bit more wasteful with the waves that you surf and you'll progress a lot faster that way. And he was like, oh yeah, I think I could be a kid. I was like, I know you can Michael Frampton: be a kid. Mm. That's a good way to put it. Be more, more precious with your strokes. Less precious with your waves. Rob Case: Exactly. It's hard though. It's really hard when you're waiting. Five minutes, 10 minutes. Yeah. A good one. Oh man. Yeah, it's really hard. Even I have trouble with that one. Michael Frampton: Yeah. No, but I think that to add to that, it's we can be really, as adults, we kids sort of. Yeah. 'cause they don't care. They're not as obsessed with watching the ocean. But I think as adults we can really, like I remember when I first started surfing in the east coast of Australia, and I remember surfing with Nathan Hedge, and you're in a lineup with a lot of good surfers sitting there waiting for a set. And then all of a sudden Nathan Hedge starts paddling like a madman. And he's like, oh, why is he paddling? And then five seconds later, everyone else sees the set coming. He saw it before everyone else. Why? Yeah, because he was just sitting, he wasn't just sitting there waiting for this set. He's just scanning that little sliver of ocean looking for the tiniest little bit of detail. So he sees the set coming before anyone else. 'cause he's, 'cause he wants it more than any anyone else. Rob Case: I think they also have, uh, an innate sense of timing and we haven't seen a set in a while. I was talking about this, um, a few days ago where someone was like, if we haven't seen a set in a while, what do you, do you think one might be coming? You know, like, we've been surfing, kind of these inside ones we've been drifting. Do you think we should take a few extra strokes out just in case? And he's like, oh yeah, that's a point. And like almost on cue I it, look, I look like a magician, a set up here. But it was, you know, like you'll sense it too. But his sensitivity is probably heightened, you know, it's, it's, it's like his sensitivity on the board itself through all that experience. Oh, for Michael Frampton: sure. I think that's definitely part of, I, I also think that his. Eye for detail is far more nuanced than he even realizes. Yeah. Do you know like maybe a, a shimmer on some rock out? Because when you're looking at the ocean, it's this tiny little sliver. Yeah. Yeah. Like when we see those pho photographs taken from up high, you know, we can see the lines stacked out the back and the shapes of each set and stuff. And, but we have such a different perspective when we're sitting in the water. But I think great surfers can look at that sliver in a far greater detail without them even realizing. Yeah. And yeah, sometimes it's instinct. They're like, oh, has it been a set in a while? The rhythm of the sets has been like this. I'm gonna paddle out. Or sometimes they see a little, whether it's a glimmer or a rebound of a headland in the distance or, or something, they just, their eye picks that up without them realizing it. They, they just feel like they should paddle out the back. Yeah. So what I always tell people as an adult surfer, you have the ability to, to, to focus on that sliver like a madman. Yes. And that, that's one advantage you have over over kids is like, you have the ability to to really, to focus better. And so when you're surfing, don't just sit out the back waiting for a wave. Focus on the horizon, focus on that sliver of water. A BSI say a b, s always be surfing, always be predicting when the wave is coming, where the next set's gonna break. And it goes back to what you said. You know, if you've, if you've looked at the different, all the, the seven different swells that are in the water on the surf line, on the detailed part of the surf line report and you know there's a secondary and a tertiary swell and you kind of know what to look for if you know what the tide's doing and the way that the rips move at your local beach because you know what to be looking for. You know, the way that a southerly swell refracts off the headland when it's 15 seconds, you know, to be looking for the double ups or the more. You look for, the more you understand that those details exist, the more you can look for them. And I think that helps us to focus more while we're waiting. Rob Case: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Which again comes back to efficiency. 'cause then you know when to paddle. Rob Case: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great point. I, I'm just thinking of these little kids that, you're right, they don't have this focus. They're, they're honestly like within maybe a five meter radius, they're like wave, wave, wave, wave. Right. And it's like a dog looking for a squirrel. It's like squirrel, right? And then they just go and they surf it and they just go and surf it and that's how they learn Super quick. It's spurred a thought in me to that maybe the audience might be helpful, is something you said earlier is, is identifying, okay, where are you at on your journey and finding waves that will help you to that next step, right? So if you're looking for waves that are airwaves. You're really just trying to work on your bottom turn. You're looking for the wrong type of wave, the wrong surf spot, right? And so you're not gonna get the reps that you need for the bottom turn or for the top turn, or for just getting to your feet or just paddling around, um, getting a sense for the wave picking you up. So I, I talk a lot to my clients and I'm sure you talk the same, is like, there are certain conditions that you're, this is your wheelhouse. You're looking for a wave that might give you one or two turns. Do you need to go to all the beautiful point breaks? And battle the crowd and sit and wait for 30 minutes before you even get a chance at maybe getting a sliver of one. No, you can go find something that has maybe one or two turn sections or maybe just a closeout if that's what you're working on, is just getting your feet right and you're going to get way more quality reps in a shorter amount of time than having to deal with it. Now, I always get pushback like, oh, but those waves are so much better. It's like, yeah, I get that, but are you gonna go for, you know, 50 to a hundred meters and not do anything? Like again? Now you're back to not progressing. And so I think for me personally, there are sessions when I'm working on progression and I'm really focused and then there are sessions where I just wanna surf and have fun and just glide. I think we talked about this last time 'cause you talked about your 12 foot glider and, uh. There. I think it depends on how you're feeling, but in terms of progression, you really do wanna align where you're at and where, what's that next step? And that's where you need a coach to tell you, tell you, yeah. That wave that you keep trying to sit at and you're, you know, in Santa Cruz and there's a hundred people on the point and you're waiting your turn for the, the wave of the day, you're missing lots of opportunities, right? Yeah. To get better. And so your, your timeline is gonna be much longer. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, kids that they'll be sitting on the inside or they'll be sitting at a beach break, just a. Goofing around having fun. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Taking everything, Rob Case: yes. Like literally every, we were, I was doing a level two in, uh, in Santa Cruz, and it was in the afternoon, and one of the locals, it was only like five of us at the, at the, the main point. And I was, I was like, this is great. We got, we got our pick the litter, we got sets, we got inside, we got middle, we got tons of reps. And then this one local was like, uhoh school just got out. And I was like, I saw like one or two kids battle out. And I was like, oh, that's not bad. It's not bad. He was like, oh, the surf team's coming. And I was like, all of a sudden, like 30 kids, and I, I'm not even kidding. It was like 30 kids and they took every bump that came through and they dropped in on each other and they were having the best time. And there were a few rippers in the group, but the rest of 'em were just kind of just. Just cruising along and having fun. And you're right, they're just like, Michael Frampton: they're just like, Rob Case: swirl, swirl, swirl, swirl. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I think for adults there's, there's a happy medium. 'cause obviously they've got boundless energy and super quick recovery times. They can wake up the next day and do it all again and Rob Case: do it all again. Yeah. Michael Frampton: So as adults, we wanna look for that efficiency in, and that's to an advantage in some ways. Uh, 'cause we, we have that awareness. , But I mean, it's a great point. If you, if you really, I think the, the popup or the takeoff is surfing's hardest and most important maneuver. Rob Case: Yeah. Michael Frampton: I love that. You can, that maneuver, Rob Case: I tell people all the time, I tell people all the time, it's a maneuver. Yeah. Like, you see very beautiful takeoffs and you see really ugly takeoffs. You see really fast takeoffs. You see really slow takeoffs. And there's, they all have, uh, a nuance to them. And the ones that you see are what we would consider maybe the best quote unquote, um. They're the ones that, um, they have function as well as kind of an art to it, right? Oh, yeah. So that's, I agree with Michael Frampton: you completely, that that one's the most overlooked. It's also the most physically demanding and dynamic maneuver in surfing. I mean, you watch, I mean, someone like Aki exaggerates how little you need to move your body. Watch AKI surf. Don't watch him surf. Watch his, what his body does, he's compressing and extending very little. He moves his arms a little bit, but has just his lean and his subtle twist. The timing doesn't, he barely moves. Yeah. So going from lying down on That's a really good point. Yeah. From lying, lying down on your stomach to getting to your feet. That is the hardest part of surfing. Yeah. The rest of it's all about timing and, and subtlety and that, that's stuff you can, gosh, you can work on a skateboard or you can work on front of a mirror really, if you're, if you're obsessed enough. And that's something I, I recommend doing, but what's the point if you can't read the ocean and paddle efficiently and get the rep Yeah. Get the potential opportunity to do that. Yeah. And, and, and pop up properly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's something you learn that isn't in your YouTube videos whilst you're, um, going through the process of writing your book? Rob Case: , What's not in the, the YouTube or the online course? Michael Frampton: Yeah. Rob Case: Or just in general. , Yeah. Michael Frampton: I'm just wondering if there's any, the book writing details that came out. Book, Rob Case: I think the main thing was making sure, well there was a new technique that I started teaching, , about near the end of completion of the book that I finally was able to kind of just explicitly kind of right out. So there, there were some things that were coming out that were new. And I don't know if you've seen the bibliography. There's a lot of documents back there from what I pull all the information from. And so, , I, I think it was funny that the, the biggest thing I learned was that it's okay to have a version two. Because at this point I was just delaying and procrastinating the release of the book. Like I had, I had written the manuscript years ago, and then I just kept saying to myself, oh, well, I need it to be perfect. I need it to be perfect. Uh, I need to make sure that, you know, all the information's spot on, that the, it's all, you know, we have the references in the back and that I include this in that. And, um, I, I, I hired a professional editor. We went through it two or three times. I've hired a professional illustrator, , you know, and I just kind of kept procrastinating the full release. And I was like, oh, well now I have to format it. Oh, what font should I use? How, how big is the spacing? And I obsessed, I obsessed over this. And, and really all it was was procrastination. And I realized that. You know, I, I got, you know, 3, 4, 5 different author versions of it and I re-read through it and I was like, okay, it's perfect time to release. And I release it and I get the first batch and I find a typo. And I'm like, damn it, are you kidding me? Like, and it, and, and the funny thing, the lesson I learned from that was, you know, it's, , I, I could have, I could, you know, fix it and then reprint. , I can definitely do that, but I'm gonna keep it because I like the, I like the idea that it's I'm human and that it has mistakes and it's okay. It doesn't change the meaning of the paragraph that it's in. It doesn't change the meaning of the book or the, the main content. It's not even in the main content. It's near the fringes of it. Um, but all that procrastination, I did it. It was, and all this worrying really wasn't for anything. You know, it was just a waste of my, um, my own energy. I wasn't being efficient with my energy. But, , yeah, that was probably the biggest thing I learned throughout the whole process is you hear that it's really, really hard. The actual physical and mental writing of the book is not hard. The formatting's not hard. I, the fact that I've never done it before that what was hard about it? It was, it was, you know, self-conscious. It was, . It was scary. It was vulnerable. Now it's in print. Right. For some reason with the videos, even though, yeah, they're, they're recorded and they're published. I could take them down, right? Mm. Now it's in print. Now it's now it's like, feels much more permanent. So I felt this, this need and this responsibility to make it perfect and then at the end, it's not perfect. And I, I find beauty in that and I find like, that's awesome. You know, and, and hopefully, like, hopefully this sparks kind of a fire under some people's bottoms to go and do more research in this area. You know, we, we have some research in paddling. There's some research in technique, the university I've been talking to, and in Australia and in, uh, here in California and in Europe there's some, but there needs to be more, there needs to be a lot more and. If you look at kind of the journey that swim research went through in the sixties, it kind of started out with a coach. A coach that had, was kind of scientifically minded, was like, I'm gonna challenge these, these assumptions we all have, and put a little bit of structure to him and really work on these experiments. Now, he wasn't academically trained to do experiments. Um, he became later on academically trained, but that sparked it all. And then they did a reprint in the nineties. His son actually did a reprint of everything with the new technology and the new research that's been done. But that was the thing that kind of pioneered it was in the sixties and it's still still going on today with new technology, new research. So if you look at, you know, from the sixties all the way to today, that's several decades. You know, we're, we're, we're that swimming, which is heavily covered. Still hasn't really finished, they haven't made it to the finish line of what is 100% true. In fact, fact, they're still tinkering. Hmm. And we're at the beginning of surfing, you know, and it's not just paddling technique, but it's all surfing. Like there should, if, if this can spark a fire under the academics, but to, to, to start doing more and more testing of this. I want them to challenge these things. I want them to academically with good rigor, do these things. And if I'm wrong, I'm happy to be wrong. , I'll do a version two, I'll add their study to the back. Right. That's what this hopefully will spark. I'm crossing my fingers that it does something to get somebody to do something about it. . Because there needs to be more, to your point, like other sports, they have decades. They're decades ahead of us. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. You see that new company with a, they've got a tail pad that's pressure sensitive and has a gyroscope in it. Rob Case: No. Michael Frampton: So they can That's awesome. Yeah. So you can get, um, you know, realtime feedback of what pressure is on the, which part of the tail pad and the board angle. Fantastic. And the board and the board speed. That's fantastic. Yeah. That is it. That's what we need. That's what we want. Yeah. Yeah. I see that. I think they've released it yet. I think it's called Tracks with an X. It popped up on my, on my Instagram. That's great. Just to see what they do with that. Rob Case: Absolutely. And who's gonna get involved in that? Like, you know, I, I, I've been working with a few people that are doing some new technology with video, , AI stuff where they can take, you know, really good surfer, just a video of them and overlay your movement on top of them and really break down all the lidio little nuances like you've talked about the difference between you versus me on the same place on that wave. Um, for example, I think that would. Again, it's more information and then we have to go apply it, Michael Frampton: right? . Oh, is there an ai ver like coach's eye is what? There's this software that's been used for that a lot, but if there's an AI that's, is it AI that's sort of doing it faster? So it's a, Rob Case: it's a camera that actually, , you know, all like Flow State. You have Flow State, at Urban Surf or you know, where, where it, it identifies a surfer just based off of their surfboard or their Yeah. What they're wearing. And then it sorts their videos. . So it does that, but then it tracks every movement of the surfer and it has stock images of the, of a pro surfer on the same wave. Oh, cool. And then it tracks it about the same location. Oh. And then you can see kind of an overlay of one over the other. And you can be like, yeah, see you're way out here on the shoulder, and they're back here in the pocket. Right. And they're turning their shoulder at this point, and you've. Already turned your shoulder or you haven't turned it yet. So stuff like that. And I think that's, that's coming online. I think there's more and more use cases for that. , But yeah, the track pad, I think, I think that's, the camera stuff I think is very flashy. It's very useful in real time, but there still needs to be academic rigor behind it. Right. To to, to really solidify that. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's what everybody should do because there are, there are unique athletes out there that make a certain movement and it is not actually proven scientific. Like Michael Phelps is a very asymmetric swimmer. He breathes, , his strokes are not even, he does one longer stroke than the other. He kind of always does that longer stroke and then a quick stroke, and then longer stroke and quick stroke, and yet he gets some pretty darn good results. Right? Mm. So how can you say that he, he is the absolute best swimmer in the world with the best technique. He's the best swimmer in the world. Yes. But what is the, the technique that can be replicated towards the, the recreational swimmer or the lower age swimmer? Michael Frampton: Well, it's something the human body's not symmetrical as much as we'd like to think it is. It's not, you know, your heart sits further to the left. Your liver's on the right hand side, you have one dom neurologically. You have one hand that's more dominant and stronger as well. And that those could be different sides. You'll have bone length discrepancies. So as much as we strive for symmetry, uh, it's, it's nice to think about and, and aim for, but it's also not possible. So it is, it's dependent. Right. And like you said, with surfing, gosh. This person's height difference and the type of board they're riding is gonna change their, their surfing technique. And of course that their, their technique might be part of their style and that's what's different about them. I think there are certain, there certainly are certain fundamentals, you know, where you place your board that is the most powerful part of the wave and that sort of stuff. Um, yeah, but no, there, there is a lot of room for, for improvement. I think the biggest thing is, is like, it, sometimes it doesn't matter when, at least my experience personally and with other clients, it doesn't matter when and where you're putting your bottom turn. If you are, if you don't even realize how scared you are or how stro, I, I call it trooping. I dunno if you've ever experienced a wave where it was filmed maybe in a, in, it's a, it's a five second wave, let's say, but it felt like it was half a second. And you have the, your memory of it is strobe. Like it was just flashes. Then sometimes when you are surfing and you're in the zone, a five second waves feels like 10 seconds and you knew what your hand was doing. Yeah. Time slowed down. That's to get to that point, I think that, that you'd need a lot of confidence in the water. Rob Case: Yeah. Michael Frampton: And comfort feel, and comfort in the water. Whereas I think even, even subconsciously, we don't realize how scared we are in, in, in the ocean a lot of the times. Rob Case: Yeah. No, I, I, I see that with paddling. Again, I, I kind of stop once they're standing, but you'll, uh, every once in a while I'll see a client that you can definitely tell I have to pull 'em back to the beach and just have a little, you know, real time with them and say, you know, what's going, what's really going on? Because like when I see what's beautiful about when I get to work with someone in person is I get to see them in the pool and I'll, I'll have them go through the pool and I can see. The body movements, the body language that is relaxed, that is comfortable, it's controlled. We put 'em out on the lagoon, a little less controlled. Maybe they tense up, maybe they don't. When this thinking in the ocean, that's a lot of people are, why are you doing the ocean stuff? It's like, well, I want to see how the movement changes once you're in that environment. And it inevitably always changes. And it might not be a comfort thing. It could be they're just distracted with, again, squirrels, they're like, you know, squirreling not thinking about anything else. But yeah, every once in a while I have to pull a a client aside and be like, what's really going on? Like, where's the fear coming from? And their movement vastly changes just from paddling. Oh yeah. Let alone if they're on a wave. Yeah. Again, I miss your Michael Frampton: job. Shame and anxiety comes into play a lot with surfing because it's always done in a public place. Yeah. You can't practice by yourself. And if you can, you prob you probably shouldn't be out there by yourself. It's dangerous. But you know, when you are surfing, you're, there's someone watching. And I think that's the beauty with kids is they don't care. They're just nah, having fun. So their bodies are relaxed and they're, and they're in the, in in the moment. And I think that's one of the hardest parts in surfing to improve is being focused and present in the moment so that you can change your technique and you this, this fear and the shame and there's all sorts of factors that contribute to that. But , back to it's why you Rob Case: say that, you know, I'll bring something up real quick, Mike, sorry to interrupt you, but, um. There's, there's, there's a lot of people watching you in the lineup and there's a lot of judgment. And I think that's where like the shame and the anxiety comes from. But one of the things that I've realized is that they're looking at you just because of, , personal selfish reasons. They just want to see if they can get more waves for themselves. They don't really care about you and what you're doing. They just want more waves. Exactly. And so I started looking at it that way and I'm like, oh, well they don't really care if I have really good style or bad sell. They're just judging me if they can get waves exactly from me. And that's it. That's it. That's, that's where it ends. That's where their thought ends. Like they're not breaking down every little thing. And you know, when people get anxiety about like, oh, you know, they saw me botch that turns like they didn't really care. Right. They didn't care about any of that. They just wanted to know if they were gonna drop in on you or not. That's it. Michael Frampton: Yep. That is it. Like we've all got a friend who you've been surfing with and you've seen them not surf to their potential. Did it matter? Did you not be friends with them? Did you care? Right. Did you No, it's, no one actually cares. It is all in our head. It's like other, we put our, our judgment of what other pe of the way other people are judging us. Like it's all in our head. Even what? Yes. And you, you're just imagining what they're judging. Yeah. But in reality, yeah. They're just wondering. They're just hoping you fall off so they can take the wave. They don't care about how you're surfing or anything like that. Rob Case: Absolutely. Michael Frampton: And the irony is, you know, it, it is a, there is a competence hierarchy in surfing, so the best surfers tend to get the best waves. Or not even, it's not even that is it. It's the best. It's the best at catching and reading the ocean that get the most waves because Rob Case: you, well, and then they, they, they get reinforced when they surf the wave. Well, everyone's like, oh, well th that was really cool. I wanna watch them again, or I'm gonna let them have the next one because kind of surf is, I don't wanna waste it. Right. I've seen that as well. Michael Frampton: Yeah. But that it, you, if you define surfing it well, not, it doesn't have to be ripping or shredding. It could be you're just doing some nice smooth Yeah, nice smooth turns in rhythm with the ocean. That's still, that's still good surfing. And that's a lot of what I've been talking about recently is like, well, yeah, in order to enjoy surfing properly, you need to define what good surfing means to you. Maybe it is just. Standing there and doing some little turns in rhythm with the wave and having a relaxed body. 'cause that's still really good surfing. You don't have to go there out there on a shortboard and try and pretend that you are, uh, in a competition that's such a small, small and that tends to frustrate a lot of people. Whereas, you know, I prefer to watch Torin Martin or Devin Howard Surf Surf nowadays. Mm-hmm. Seems more relatable, Rob Case: kind of. Yeah. You said something earlier about how like the pros are constantly trying to improve. , The pros are just as insecure as we are, but just on a different level. Yeah. , It's, it's crazy how the more I get to work with them. The more you realize they're just like us in terms of that insecurity, and you're sitting there going, man, you shred. You are amazing surfer. Don't, why are you stressing this much? Oh, that guy's so much better than me. Why do you think he's better than me? Oh, because he is a better paddler than me. I was like, hold on a second. You're associating his paddling with his surfing now. Like, yeah. You know, those are not, they're mutually exclusive. He could be a really good paddler and not a good surfer, not as good as you, but at that elite level, at that 1% level, that that could make all the difference. And so that's. It's interesting you brought that up. And I just wanted the audience to know that these pros and these good surfers, they're just as insecure as we are, just on a different level. Michael Frampton: And they also Yeah, that's a good point. But it's more nuanced because their insecurity and, and all that stuff, it remains outside of them surfing a wave. 'cause when they're on the wave, they're present and they're surfing the wave. Mm-hmm. Now they might go back and watch the footage and go, oh fuck, I, I need to do, I need to just like Rob Case: us. Yeah. And, Michael Frampton: and they'll put the time in outside of surfing and they'll trust that the, the work they've put in outside of surfing a wave will translate. But when they're on the wave, they're present. And when they're surfing, they've, they've forgot about that wave. It doesn't matter. I'll, I'll work on it outside of, or I like the, the analogy of the musician, when you're playing in a band with your friends, you're listening to the drummer and you're trying to. Be better at the song. As soon as you start thinking, oh, am I in time? Am I doing this right? Well, there's nothing you can do about it, right? You, you're playing the song together. You might as well focus and be the best you can in that moment. And if you think you need to be better, well you go, go home and practice. Go away and practice. So I think good professionals in any, whether it's music or surfing or any sport, they have the ability to separate those things. They don't let that anxiety and that self doubt creep into their actual performances and their experience. They work on that outside of that. Whereas I, I think that's a big part of what separates the, the good from the great is sometimes we let that stuff creep into our actual surfing experiences and we are worried about what people look or how we are looking when we're actually surfing the wave. And then the opposite of a flow state happens, time seems to speed up and we get that trooping effect. Rob Case: Is the ultimate kind of present state when you do it in that flow state. And I, I, I always assimilate like Steph Curry, 'cause he's so big here, he's not thinking about his shot when he throws it up and he immediately forgets about a miss or a make, and the very next moment he's off to the next thing. And then like I, we've been watching a lot of NBA the last few years and when you see a player really get into a kind of a funk, they have, they're no longer in that moment anymore. They're thinking about those little things in the moment and they're not going back and just relying, like you said, relying upon the training outside of it. But the difference is, and I use this analogy a lot with people, Steph Curry can, can, after a game, if he had a bad free throw game, he can go and shoot free throws over and over and over again and really practice, practice, practice. Tough for us to, to shoot free throws on a surfboard, uh, metaphorically speaking. Yeah. The same section over and over again. And that's where wave pools, I think help a bit. There's at least some sense of repetition in the waves, so you can do the same thing over and over again. Yeah. Um, Michael Frampton: well, you also, you have to be a bit, and you used have, you also have to be a bit more creative. You know, there's plenty of dry land training, like, I mean, that's what on my website, there's a free PDF where we break down with here's what a popup is. Here's how you practice it in slow motion forwards and backwards. I've got videos and all that stuff so you can get creative and practice your, your popup technique, the mobility of it, the strength of it, the control of it, where your eyes are looking the whole way through it, that sort of stuff. You can practice that on dry land. You can get a skateboard and practice some of the surfing techniques. You can join Brad Acks wave key thing. You can read Rob Case's book on surfing paddling and watch all of his surfing videos in order to understand what is efficient paddling, what is, what are, what are some hydrodynamic principles and all of that stuff. I think so we can, there's so much out there that we can look at outside of our surfing time. Um, yeah, and that comes back to something that I, when I first started this podcast, I was obsessed with surfing and that those years. That's what I was doing. I was watching videos, I was learning about stuff. I was skateboarding when, when the waves were flat. I was, so yeah, we, we don't get to practice, um, on a wave that much. Or like you said, I mean wave pools are changing that somewhat. But that's expensive. But there's so much else we can do. Yeah. We've been able to, we have to get Rob Case: creative, like you said, we had to get creative over the years. 'cause that's also the uniqueness of surfing is that every wave is unique. It is a one, you know, that one moment in time will not happen again on that wave, in that exact place. Even in a wave pool, all the waves are nuanced, a little bit different. Right. So it's so unique. And that's what we love about surfing as well. Exactly. That's why it's the greatest teacher of being in the present. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think because it's so unique and rare, that's what makes it special. But I think because of that reason, all that work that you put in. To finally get there makes all, all the difference. And then you feel confident to book a trip to the tropics with, you know, 18 second period swells. 'cause you're confident paddler and you've done your underwater training and you, you're strong and you're fit. And, uh, you know, this, I it's so exciting. Surfing is, uh, you can, I mean, even Kelly Slater himself still wants to get better, right? This, Rob Case: yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Michael Frampton: They still wanna improve. There is, there is no, there's no ceiling. Yeah. Surfing. There's Rob Case: perfect, there's no perfect in surfing. Michael Frampton: No, not at all., Rob, what's the, what's your website? Rob Case: Surfing paddling.com. Pretty simple. Just remember the ING after surfing. Yep. Surfing petman.com. Okay, great. And that's where, that's where people can get, you know, access to the book. With the book. I have, , there's a link on there if you sign up through that link, you get three free videos that help illustrate some of the principles that I outlined in the book. , And then later on I send you a little discount code for the online course that helps further, you know, connect the words to visuals, , if you can't come work with me here or wherever I end up in the world. But yeah, lots of, lots of resources at the website. That's the main place to get it. Michael Frampton: Yep. Okay. Awesome. , Listeners, if you want to to learn, , the audio version of some of the details of paddling technique, you can go back to episode 12 of this podcast, our original episode, and you can go to Rob's YouTube channel as well. And of course surfing paddling.com for everything else. There will be links to that in the show notes. And, , Rob, thank you so much for your time. It was great talking with you, Mike. Appreciate it. Alright. Be well buddy. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

Struggling to stand up quickly and smoothly on your surfboard? Your popup might be the one skill holding your surfing back. The popup—your transition from paddling to riding—is the hardest maneuver in surfing and the foundation of every great ride. If yours is slow, clumsy, or inconsistent, it’s costing you waves, confidence, and how others see you in the lineup. But with the right approach, you can build a fast, stable popup even if you started surfing later in life. Learn why a smooth, athletic popup sets the tone for your entire ride. Discover dry-land exercises that develop the exact strength, mobility, and control needed for a flawless takeoff. Get a step-by-step reverse training method to make your popup faster, more stable, and more consistent. Press play now to unlock the techniques and training drills that will transform your popup—and every wave you catch. Summary: Your popup is the foundation of every great ride—and one of the hardest skills to master in surfing. In this episode of the Surf Mastery Podcast, host Michael Frampton breaks down why the popup is so critical, what’s really happening during the movement, and how to train it effectively on land. You’ll learn the common mistakes that slow surfers down, how to build the strength and mobility needed for a lightning-fast takeoff, and the reverse training method that can transform your consistency in the water. Whether you’re a late starter or looking to sharpen your fundamentals, these practical drills will help you catch more waves and surf with greater confidence. Transcript: Michael Frampton: Welcome back, or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves and to surf with more speed, style, grace. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today we are talking about the popup, AKA, the takeoff. It is the hardest maneuver in surfing. And it's the one thing in surfing that demands the most athleticism. Going from lying prone to getting to your feet without changing the way that the board moves through the water, or losing sight of the way the wave is breaking. That is hard. It takes a lot of athleticism to do that. And your popup isn't just about getting to your feet, it's also your entry into the wave. If it's slow or unstable, everything after that suffers. It's kind of like singing a song. You've got to hit that first note. Now, if your popup feels slow or clumsy or inconsistent, not only is it costing you waves, it's costing your perception in the lineup. Are you a competent surfer that doesn't waste waves? Or are you looked at as a kook? Now all good surfers have a good popup. I remember my first filmed surf coaching session, and that was the first thing we talked about was my popup. And until I saw the footage and spoke with the surf coach after, I didn't realize how bad mine was or. Really what a good one look like. I'm so glad that that particular surf coach picked it up so early on and after that, 'cause my background is in personal training and and and movement development. I spent hours in the gym after that developing the strength and mobility to be able to do a fast and smooth popup on dry land. And that is the one thing that has changed my surfing the most. Maybe aside from reading the ocean better. That pop up getting that. It just does wonders for your confidence 'cause getting to your feet fast and smooth. If you can do that, you have so much more. Trust in yourself to paddle into waves and to get to your feet with good timing. Getting your front leg underneath your chest and transferring that body weight from your ribs to your hands to your front foot, whilst still looking at the wave and keeping the board planing through the water at. With without bouncing or wobbling. It's really, really hard to do, and it's a very specific movement skill that that needs to be developed. Now. Most great surfers started very young and their bodies could do it when they were young, and as they grew they sort of maintained that skill. But I, like many of other people out there, started late in life. I was already fully grown before I started surfing, and I had to develop that movement skill. I've also trained a lot of adult beginners to develop that movement skill on dry land, and I cannot stress how important it is. The good news is that you can develop a good popup on dry land. It's not easy, but it is simple. How do you do that? Let's start by understanding a little bit more about what the popup is. When you're surfing, you are, you're paddling, so most of your body weight is going through the center of the board through your chest. Now, as you feel the wave start to pick you up and and your board speed change, then you transfer that body weight from your chest to your hands and then onto your front foot. Now it's a little more nuanced than that, but that's basically what it is. How do we train this? Or more specifically, how do we develop the ability to do this movement with control and agility? I would start by lying on the floor and lie down on your stomach as if you're paddling a surfboard, most of your body weight going through your ribs, and then bring your hands close to your chest and start to do a pushup. And then as you get to the top of the pushup, you bring your front leg forward so that your foot is in between your hands and you transfer the body weight. From your hands into your front foot. This is the point where most people get caught out. They simply cannot do it because they don't have the strength and mobility. There's not enough room. For that leg to fit into that space, that distance between your chest and your hands or the floor, if there's not enough room for your leg to fit there. And what you'll have to do is push hard and fast off the floor. Then your hands leave the floor, and that leg lands in between your hands, which was. The mistake that a lot of people do on a surfboard. So there's a split second or even longer, where the center of the surfboard isn't controlled by you. The best way to develop the movement is actually in reverse. So if you think of another exercise like, like a chin up, the best way to develop strength for a chin up if you can't do one, is to do it eccentrically or in reverse. You hold yourself at the top of the chin up and let yourself down really slowly. So the exercise that I recommend for improving your. Popup here is actually to do it in reverse. So you start by standing in your surf stance, you transfer the body weight all the way to your front foot, and then you slowly drop your hands down next to the front foot and slowly begin to transfer all your body weight from your foot into your hands, keeping that distance between your chest and the floor as big as possible, ideally, so you can actually lift the foot up off the floor so all your body weight is in your hands. But the foot remains in the same place. And then slowly take your foot back into the pushup position, and then lower yourself down into the bottom of a pushup where you're in that prone paddling position. The goal is to be able to transfer your body weight from your front foot, to your hands, to your chest, in a nice, smooth, slow, and controlled way. There is a free PDF on the homepage of surf mastery.com, called the five Best Exercises for Surfing, which goes into detail on this particular exercise as well as some other ones that compliment it. So go ahead and have a look at that. And on that note, do you know what's even harder is getting to the point where you actually need to do a popup. So reading the ocean, choosing the right waves, predicting the. Where waves are going to break and reading how the water's moving, and then paddling into the wave, all that stuff that happens before you actually do the popup, which is about 99% of your time in the water. That's actually the hardest part in surfing, and it's also what my course is all about. I have released a mini course that teaches all of that stuff. What happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet? The 99% of surfing that is done before we stand up. I have a course that goes into the details of all of that stuff, including exercises to, to complement the popup and also your standing position, which is essentially the finishing position of your popup. Most other courses out there are focused on what do you do once you're standing up? Well. Let's break it down on how to get there. Go to the surf mastery.com homepage and you can go ahead and check out more details on that course, and of course, jump on board. This is basically the course that I wish I had when I started surfing. Thanks for tuning into the podcast. Until next time, keep surfing. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

Is surfing a sport, an art, or something in between - and does it really matter? If you've ever felt pressure to "perform" in the water or questioned your progress as a surfer, this episode will shift your mindset. Michael Frampton and Devon Howard unpack how redefining surfing as an art form - not just a competitive sport, it can transform both your approach and enjoyment, whether you're a beginner or a seasoned longboarder. Discover why kids often learn to surf faster and more fearlessly than adults - and what that means for your own surfing journey. Learn how to embrace surfing as a personal expression, tapping into flow states and style without the stress of performance. Get practical tips on wave selection, lineup strategy, and choosing the right longboard or mid-length for your body and goals. Tap into the deeper meaning of surfing and learn how shifting your mindset from sport to art can unlock more joy and progress - listen now. Key Points: Reading Waves & Lineup Tactics: Devon shares his triangulation method for better positioning and wave-catching efficiency - plus tips for navigating crowded breaks. Nose Riding Fundamentals: Understand why board length and positioning are crucial, and get clear size guidelines based on your height and weight. Board Selection Wisdom: From longboards to mid-lengths, discover how design choices impact both performance and style - and why collaboration with shapers like Wayne Rich matters. Surf Philosophy: Explore the tension between competition and creativity, and how thinking of surfing as dance, art, or even martial art can transform your surfing mindset. Check out this article: https://www.theinertia.com/surf/surfing-art-sport-debate/ p.s. DM Devon on Instagram about a discount code for Channel Island’s accessories; leg ropes, tail pads and board bags. Transcript: 124 Devon Howard Michael Frampton: …they're mad on football. So it's winter here in New Zealand, so it's just football, football, football. Once the football season finishes and the, and the water gets warmer, we'll get back into surfing. I got the kids in swimming lessons every week, so just building their swimming fitness up. Devon Howard: Yeah, our kids are swimming now. They're pretty young, but we have a pool nearby and to get 'em acquainted with the ocean, we've been getting 'em in swimming lessons just 'cause it's, the water's a little chilly here as you, as you know. So getting really young kids psyched on low 60 Fahrenheit water is rough. Oh yeah. Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Swimming's important. Swimming's you, you, I mean, the confidence in the water, right? Is, yeah. Michael Frampton: The biggest thing. And, and one thing that surprised me, like my kids, we spend a lot of time at the beach, , in the summertime and just their level of play, they don't care. , They started off just messing around in the shore break and then with a bodyboard, and then they jump on the front of my board and there was no pressure from me. It was just like, we're at the beach, you guys do what you want. And then naturally they're like, oh, I wanna try your board dad. And now they're all surfing. That's great. And, and they naturally, one of them in particular is like obsessed with it and. But they don't care. It's like for, for them, surfing is not a sport at all. There's no, there's no pressure on performance, anything like that. Right. And I think that's why they, they learn so well and why they sort of have no, there's no fear or shame or anxiety based around how they look in the water or anything. It's just pure fun. And two things surprised me on that is like a, is how long it takes to learn. , I've been doing this with them, like my 13-year-old, he's only really just starting to sort of get surfing, like starting to sort of turn up and down on the wave face. And we've been doing that since he was four. You know, obviously there's far more gifted kids that pick it up really quick and, you know, the natural athletes and their obsessed parents and you know, some kids are competing once they're 11. But I think for most kids it's, it's takes so long to learn surfing. And I think just knowing that. Takes a lot of, should take a lot of pressure off the adult learner who's listening to this. Right? Michael Frampton: It's like, give yourself a break, man. It takes a long time to learn surfing. And second of all, the fastest and best way to learn surfing is to kind of approach it like a kid in a way. And Sure, my theory is that part of that is, don't think of it as a sport per se. Think of it as more of like an art or a lifestyle . Right. What are your thoughts on, on surfing in that regards? Is it a sport, is it an art? Does it matter? Devon Howard: I don't, I've never thought of it as a sport, even though I, ironically, I worked for a sports league for a while at the World Surf League. You can't give a simple answer to that because I think some aspects of surfing has become sport. , If you go, if we tune into the World Surf League later this week, they'll be at Jefferies Bay. The things that those surfers are doing, I think that's sport. I mean, it's, it's high level athleticism, , but it's mixed with art. , In dance, which is an interesting thing. I suppose in some ways skateboarding is, you know, skateboarders have they really value style in their sport? I think that, I think skateboarders do call it a sport. But these conversations always are fraught with pitfalls because I'm, I'm not a, you know, my expertise isn't philosophy. I'm, I'm sure a really great thinker could pick this thing apart, but from my simple look at it, I always have felt surfing is a, it's just a personal expression and it, it leans more toward art. It leans more toward dance. I know that sounds cheesy for some folks, but, , the type of surfing that interests me and I pursuing a lot of my friends do, I, I think it is not really sport. Michael Frampton: , I, I agree with that a hundred percent. I would go further and argue that even in the WSL competition, I think most of the, the sport and air quotes is around the tactics and getting the waves. But once the surfers on the wave, the ones who get scored the most, are the most artistic. Mm-hmm. You know, like whether you watch John John with or without a jersey, he's, it's still very great. He's still dancing with the ocean. Yeah. Devon Howard: Yeah. And, and it is creative and I think because it's spontaneous, I guess other sports are spontaneous, you know, like a baseball game, any kind of balls comes flying at you, you have to react to it. There's not an exact plan, but you have practiced, um, a lot to react to that and to physically grab something where a surfboard, you have this other, you are catching something, you're catching the, the wave that's like catching a bulb. But then you've got this other dimension where now you have the, it's a cliche, but the paintbrush. Um, and I, a lot of these surfers don't know what they're gonna do when they get to their feet. I don't, I don't know if you do, I mean, you kind of have things that you are in your bag of tricks or your repertoire that you lean on, but you don't always know you. There's a lot of. Spontaneous react reaction to what's happening. So I think that's what art is. You know, if you sit, I used to draw a lot when I was younger, you know, you sit down and yeah, maybe you kind of have a game plan, but if, unless you're copying something, like you're looking at a still like a, you know, model or a landscape, I suppose you're, you know, you're copying that. But if you are sitting down and not looking at anything and just going off peer feeling with no plan, um, that's artistry. And I, I, I think surfing's that way for a lot of people. For some people it's just survival. They're not, they're not really planning anything out. If you're newer to surfing, you're just like, get to your feet, make the drop, get to the channel, do it over again. Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think a lot of. Things are like that, like surfing. Definitely one that sort of crosses the border between sport and art. I mean, you think of a a, an Olympic competition, gymnastics, right? It's gymnastics is essentially an art, unless even the judging itself is quite subjective. No. Mm-hmm. A running race who finishes first? I mean, that's very objective. It's there's, you know, right. That's definitely a sport. And then even like a, a football game, who scores, who wins at the end? It's the black, it's pretty black and white. However, you might argue that Messi or Ronaldo, the way that they play with the ball is an art form. The way that they probably draw energy from the audience and they like their, show me that it's a performance art for them. And anyone who's, you know, followed those great athletes would certainly describe the way they move is, is very artistic and the way they play the game. Um, right. I actually quite like to ask whether their perception of the game is more artistic as well. 'cause I, 'cause that's where I'm sort of coming from here is like the, the overarching question is why does it matter if it's a sporter or not? Like who cares? Let's just go surfing. Well, I think for, for a lot of people, especially me, sport is often defined and I grew up playing sport, but it was always competitive sport. So the definition of sport for me has an element of competitiveness. Even though the Oxford dictionary definition of it doesn't include that, for me it's sort of always think of sport as something that's competitive. Whether that's an individualistic sport where you might be just competing against yourself when you're practicing or whatever. But when, when you approach surfing or anything with an artistic perspective, then it becomes, no, this is creative. And you know, instead of three, instead of three to the beach. Because I used to think of surfing, like even though I wasn't in a competition, I used to think of surfing as I wanna rip the wave and three to the beach and sort of had these WSL speed power flow sort of outside influences on the way I should surf. And you're watching surfing videos and you're surfing the latest shortboard and it was very much a sporting activity. And then when I sort of changed my perspective and thought of it, no, it's an art, it's for me, it's just becoming one with the wave and approached it. Yeah. From a more artistic perspective, I think a couple of things happened. I, I just enjoyed it more. There was less pressure. Yeah. Actually started becoming more inflow and actually surfing with the wave better. Devon Howard: Yeah. And it's funny, if you were to open up Surf magazine from, I don't know, 1966 or seven, the same exact conversations were happening because I might be misquoting 'em, but I believe it was Nat Young. At some point, you know, he and the crew, a lot of crew were pulling back from competition and, , they were like, you look at the film evolution and, and that sort of late sixties period they were going to the farm and they were pulling back from putting the jersey on and having these discussions, you know, is pursuing and pushing, surfing in as a competitive sport, a mistake. Are we forcing something upon, uh, a pursuit that's more akin to a performance art? I believe, I believe that's what he called it, was performance art, which would be closer to traditional dance. , You know, because at that time, let's just say late sixties, early seventies, the, the equipment. Hadn't gone anywhere near what it is now. I mean, sure. In cartoons and dreams, they were imagining, um, flying through the air. I'm sure people were, but it was, it wouldn't, that wasn't happening until, uh, late seventies, early eighties where people started like getting really above the lip and then leaving, uh, and taking orbit. Uh, so you can really just think about it as, um, yeah, performance art and um, and then competitive surfing. Uh, and, and the sport of surfing really, um, disappeared for a number of years. Through the early seventies into the mid seventies. By and large, the majority of surfing world wasn't participating in it. You look at surf magazines, they weren't pushing it super hard, but in the mid seventies, the board started getting. More, um, performance focused. And you could argue what came first, you know, was it the competition that drew drove design, which, um, you know, increased the performance of the boards. 'cause in the mid seventies, there's shrinking the boards from those brewer single fin shapes, which were pretty limiting. Um, people were riding eggs in the early seventies. Those were actually a lot more maneuverable than the Dick Brewer style boards that were popular because of Jerry Lopez. Jerry Lopez was God. And everyone wanted to surf like Jerry, even if it was waist high, wherever you were, it could be waist high Malibu. And people were riding seven foot Lopez guns, which was absurd. Hmm. And so everything was style focused. It was still for sure art., But I think there was a fork in the road, so to speak, um, by mid to late seventies. Professional, you know, professional surfing was becoming a thing. The bronzed, Aussies, Sean Thompson, every, you know, we don't have to give a history lesson here, but astute listeners know that story. And so surf brands are emerging and they're trying to sell product. And they sort of aligned themselves behind these elite quote, you know, surfer athletes and the type of surfing they were doing. You know, Shane Haran, you can go down the list of people. And then eventually Tom Kern, Martin Potter, Barton Lynch, they were getting in as many maneuvers as they could because they were being judged in a competition. They were trying to win something. It was a subjectified sport, but it was still subjective. So it was always, no one was ever totally happy, but it was still being pushed toward a sport. And to get better, to win, to be a champion, you had to keep pushing performance more maneuvers, more radical. Then you had the other people who said the hell with that, that that is counter to what they believed in surfing. And that would be your, um, Jim Banks. It would be the Wayne Lynch. It would be these sort of people that really stayed far from competition, pursued surf travel, and they kept that idea of it being an art alive. And like we're still having those discussions. We still, you know, on one side of things, now we have Michael February for example, and there's a whole list of people. Um, although even to like, , Brendan Marson, Margo who's like my age in his early fifties, credible surfer. There's nothing on that side of things that are. Remotely related to competition. And I think everybody associates what they are doing at purely as art. I don't think anyone I, I'd be happy to hear who thinks that is sport. And then we go back to our WSL example, you've got the jersey, you've got Jack Robinson, Alianca, you, you know, go down the whole list of people and that's what feels like sport to me. So it's interesting that we have two sides of it. And then ultimately whoever's listening or whoever's surfing and they, they sort of make a choice. And I don't know, maybe the, is there a hybrid version of that? What, what would the hybrid be? I, I don't even know what you would call that, but, Michael Frampton: I guess it depends on, I, I just think surfing is a sport for a very small percentage of surfers. It's the competitive ones. And then ironically, when they're surfing outside of competition and even when they're on a wave in their competition, it's still very much artistic. And like you said, I think a performance art is a great definition. And Kelly Slater defined, I've heard him define surfing as a martial art, is simply because in martial arts you are playing with an outside force, , and in surfing as a performance art, but at the same time, you're also, you, you want to get as close to the most powerful part of the wave as well, so, right. And in waves of consequence, at least you are, you're messing with danger, you know? Devon Howard: Well, yeah. And I, I don't know, I don't have the definition of martial arts in front of me, but did it, does it go on, is there any other part of that where it involves like inflicting pain or damage because, uh, one side of surfing. In the eighties when I was growing up, you wanted to rip and lacerate and destroy the wave, which is really funny. Yeah. I think Devon Howard: Brad Gerlach's talked about this before. I feel like I've heard him mention this and how the, that's one way to look at it. And the other is to have the surfing complement the, the wave. It's not to, to take away from it or to destroy it, like going off the bottom and then r you know, Hmm. Taking the board so that you're throwing as much spray in the air. It could be like a I'm smashing that wave. I'm ripping, I'm tearing, I'm shrouding las. Yeah. Lacerating And where, go back to Michael February or Margot or any of those sorts of, , rastovich. They are, there's a complimentary nature of the lines they choose and you never feel like they're destroying something or ripping it. I'm not, I'm not here to say what's right or wrong. It's just interesting. Hmm. Devon Howard: Uh, 'cause you, I never thought about martial arts, so I'm just kind of thinking that through out. Um, 'cause there are types of martial arts that are more in, like, I assume Tai Chi is a type of martial arts. I, I think pretty sure it is. But that's just like this beautiful movement. Kung fu has beautiful movement. Um, but you use that outsource outside force of nature to technically to defend yourself. Um, I guess if you're at, uh, ch pu, I don't know how to pronounce that. Everyone pronounces a different pu, um, that could kill you. Oh yeah. Pipeline. Michael Frampton: Oof. Devon Howard: Scary stuff. Michael Frampton: Yeah. But its intention is not to, whereas in martial arts, if you're in a fight, someone's intention is to hurt you. Although, you know, in martial arts, when you, when you are practicing martial arts in a dojo with, with friends, the intention isn't to hurt at all. It's to practice the art and to learn to flow with, you know, but then you, when you turn martial arts into a competition, say judo in the Olympic judo, yeah. Other guys maybe not trying to literally break your arm, but he wants to win. He wants to, you know, hurting you kind of part of that. So I think there's a sort of a subtle difference there between you sparring, sparring with a friend in order to become better so that you can defend yourself in a bad situation or you're in a judo competition, you wanna air quotes, kill the other person, Devon Howard: right? Michael Frampton: Yeah. But I get, and I guess you've got different approaches. I mean, you think of Pancho Sullivan's very much ripping and shredding the wave and you know, fast changes of direction and at the apex of the curve, which throws a lot of spray. But then you also look at Rob Machado and Smooth as you, like fast. Yeah. But he also throws a hell of a lot of spray and you could argue that he's ripping the wave. Yeah. But he's doing it in a graceful way maybe. Devon Howard: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, no, I, I agree. And a lot of, um, I dunno Devon Howard: if a lot of times, but I'll, I'll often hear people describe, , maybe we talked about this before, but that, that idea of that surfer stylish, did we talk about that before? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Stylish style. Yep. It, it belies the, the rip actual ripping going on, you know, because sometimes that. Low bottom turn or that really coiled up cutback that's really smooth and flowing. Yeah. It is a type of ripping and it is pretty difficult to do. Um, but there's, you're still leaning toward artistry over sport of, i know when I was at the World Surf League, especially with long 'cause I was there to work on longboard surfing, but I feel like longboard surfing can sometimes be more challenging to, to be a sport because it's a lot of this movement up and down the board. And since it, you know, through like the Joel tutoring influence and, and cultural influences, it started leaning more toward a traditional long board judging criteria. It. I, I would, I would have this conversation in my head like, are we at odds with ourself? Like we're trying to judge this thing. Um, we're trying to make as objective as possible, but it's, it's impossible because you, one judge can view somebody 'cause styles in the criteria where in short performance shortboarding, it's not in the criteria. Hmm. Devon Howard: It, it can create some interesting challenges. Like it's not easily identified as a sport. So I, I tried to explain to the judges, um, I wasn't a judge, but I was just sort of leading the whole crew and giving guidance on how are we gonna make this interesting? How are we gonna judge it as fair as possible? And I would use, , dance competitions as, um, as sort of a guideline. And I think everyone agrees that like those beautiful dancers doing tango. Salsa you named the dance like that is, that is for sure art. I mean, it's just incredible form and beauty and you know, they're throwing numbers out on that and it's, it's all subjective. So there it was, it was always this kind of, uh, it was this difficult thing of, , are we judging a sport? Are we judging performance art? And it was helpful for judges that were shortboard judges that didn't have a lot of experience with longboard surfing to step back and see it less as a competitive sport because it's pretty straight, it's a bit more straightforward with shortboarding, there still is a subjective nature to it, but when you don't have to lean on style, it's not written in the book. It, I'm sure some judges, um, factor style in, but they're, they're going above and beyond what's in the parameters of the rule book. So it was just an interesting, , observation and, and in the end I think we got there by having those conversations about being open to this being leaning more toward art, which in, in, in we're a sports league. We were at a sports league. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think that's a good conversation to have. 'cause it's important. Is it, there are a lot of similarities with dance. You know, like if you're judging a tango competition while the music they're playing is apt, first of all, it would, it would look strange if they were dancing to heavy metal. It wouldn't be appropriate the, the what they're wearing. Right? And then that in terms of them being stylish, their movements are smooth, controlled, and in time with the other person and the music. Yeah, the, the, Devon Howard: it's the, the style a lot of times is the balance of form with the movement so that the form is never lack of martial art. It's never working against the movement. You know, you can, you, you can't imagine a, a black belt in any martial art where their arms are like going the wrong way. It's just not, it would be really awkward looking. And it's, it's the same with surfing, you know. And so the, the form, the function will follow the form and if they have a really good form, um, the surfing will will a lot of times be beautiful, where a lot, I, I feel like two brides, two rides are a good way to sort of like. Forced pretty decent style. Like it's pretty apparent if you have awful style, if you're in a barrel. Mm. Devon Howard: But you know, a good amount of surfers can kind of pull it together and get that crouch down and sort of get the hands just right inside the barrel. But if they're like bent over it, legs are sort of straightish and they're bent over at the waist and sort of looking down at the board. Oof. Ow It's really obvious that, um, style's way off. Form's way off. Definitely not artistic. Michael Frampton: Yeah. And the wave's gonna hit you in the butt anyway. Devon Howard: Yeah. Because you're gonna be in bit trouble. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, it's, it's, so, I guess it's also, you've gotta surf back to surfing. You've gotta surf appropriately to the waves that you're surfing. So essentially you are in rhythm with the ocean and also. The, the surfboard that you choose to ride as well, which is like someone actually meant, because our last conversation was about style, which kind of weaves ni nicely into this conversation. And there was a comment on, on YouTube, someone said, oh, someone said you didn't infl, you didn't enforce or, put enough weight to the origin of the word style, which comes, comes from stylus, which is, , your pen as right. It had a certain writing style, and of course it was the words you wrote, but also your, your handwriting and what, yeah, and the quality of the fountain pen or whatever type of pen that you chose to use as well. So I thought that was really interesting. Which comes back, which leads us into the surfboard. So I think that that's gonna determine a lot of your style. And if you are going out on a performance shortboard, people are gonna look at you more like a sports person. But if you're out there on a, on a beautiful, beautiful log and you are going for, you know, form and style, you're gonna be seen as, as more of an artist as well actually. Devon Howard: Yeah, I'd say that is probably a general rule. , At one, once upon a time there was style was really, you know, I think we're about close to the same age. So I grew up idolizing looking at people like Tom Curren in the eighties and nineties and Peak Tom Curren, early nineties, the search Beautiful search films. Um, and then on the Shortboard side of things, you know, again, it comes back competition and sport has driven the departure to, to. Get away from style. 'cause not on the criteria, there's a focus on high performance maneuvers, but there's a return to that. And, and, and over the years there's been people sort of in there, but like a Joel Parkinson, um, who would get underscored because he looked too smooth, which is interesting. Mm mm Devon Howard: And then, um, I think Ethan Ewing is a great example in recent times that the judges really react to it. The surf fans, if you follow the WSL, certainly you know that he's got a huge following. He's a favorite on all the podcasts that you and I listen to, everybody kind of sees him as a return to form, which is really quite nice. I think that's, um, awesome. But at the end of the day, there's still no word or you're not required. To factor in style into the criteria. So it's interesting when you look at, it's not in the criteria, but clearly the style in the form is factoring into the score because he's doing these really radical maneuvers, but really polished, really beautiful form, no arms waving, everything's low and compressed like a Tom Curren or Rastovich, but two or three x, you know, like more like faster and more explosive and more corked out and twisted. , But generally speaking, I think it's true what you're saying that you, you could associate that the average sort of stuff you're seeing out there, whether it's competition or just your local lineup, there's not a real focus on the art or or style. And because the board lends itself to. Pumping and ripping and sort of being in and out of tr proper trim. Um, the, there's not that stability to have that good form for some, maybe a lot of people. Hmm. Devon Howard: But then on a log or a long board, or a mid, I'm sorry, a, um, mid length, it's more stable. The board's more in the water. You're not lifting it and pumping it and getting it out of the water as much. Um, so you've got a more stable foundation to kind of work out, you know, you're not under that sort of stress and pressure of making a board work, going down the line and then getting to the different parts of the wave with ease. So I, I think it's true that a general rule could be for the average person, that the board is gonna have a big impact on your presentation. Well, the form, but just the way. You know, other, the rest of us see the way you're riding the wave. , Again, we're not surfing to make other people happier or to please other people, I think. But good form, it feels great. When you're surfing, it's just like swinging a bat. You hit the ball and you connect, you know, or I don't play golf, but you, you get like a perfect swing. I know my friends at golf, so there's nothing like that feeling. You just know that that drive is going way down the field and it's going right where you want it to go. I think that's good form, right? And then surfing good form. When you get a great bottom turn or great cutback and everything comes together, it feels awesome. And byproduct of that, as your friends might keep you a hoot or a hollerer in the channel. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, labeling it as an art doesn't take away from the fact that we want to get better at all. I mean, any musician who's played music is definitely an art form. And if you want to get better, you gotta practice. You know, you practice, you learn music theory, you practice in your bedroom by yourself. You, you might do it for hours and hours and in order to do one jam with a band and have that be artistic. Yeah. So it definitely doesn't take away with our want, our desire to get better and, and certainly to get better for ourselves, not for some competition or, or how we look, just because it's, it's awesome to do that. The, I think just the simple fact is the, the better you are at surfing, the better it feels. Devon Howard: Yeah. It's, , it's serious fun. You're, yeah. You know, because sometimes the word art could. In some people's mind could communicate a lack of seriousness. Like it, Hey, this thing doesn't matter. It's a pointless pursuit. There's nothing to be really taken that seriously. You know, you, you, you know, run into surfers who will, maybe they'll drop in on you or collide with you and go like, Hey man, take it easy. Like, we're just having fun. Don't take it so seriously. Think, well, you know, a lot of us that have sort of dedicated our lives to it, we take the s the serious part of it is, is the practice, like the guy or girl and the guitar, um, you know, they're hours a day. They're, they're taking it seriously, but they're having a good time and they're, they're practicing over and over. Just like someone in a martial arts jiujitsu studio that's hours and hours of training. Um, we're doing that as well. We don't get as much practice at it 'cause we're paddling so much and sitting a lot. It's actually quite precious the amount of time we get on the board. , That's why, back to the very beginning of the conversation, it just takes a long time. That's why it's hard for kids, you know, it's a lot of patience, a lot of understanding and moving through the, the ocean. Um, and then when you actually get up and ride away, it's just a small fraction of your time in the ocean. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's, I mean, what happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet? That's the hardest part of surfing. Devon Howard: It depends how many people are talking to you in the lineup. How many sets in this, while they're talking to you about their real estate deal, you're like, let's surf. Yeah, let's get back. Let's, let's have some serious fun, you know, like I, that's what I always have seen surfing a as like, um, yeah. And, and, and I think, yeah, just like what I was saying earlier, sometimes the, the idea that being an art, I, I've talked to people who take, like, you know, these are professional surfers, people that dedicate their life to it. And I'm explaining to them that it's a, it's an art or a dance. And, and some of these surfers didn't like that. They thought that it, it eroded or diminished the importance or the seriousness of what they were doing. They're like thinking to themselves like, well, I train and I, like, I go to the gym and I run and I do all these things so that I can be stronger and surf better. And like art just sounds like something you do. Like you're doodling in a notepad and it just. Is a pointless endeavor. Um, so there, there, for some people, there's a disconnect with the idea of art. We're clearly all not on the same page on this. 'cause a lot of WSL fans, I'd be willing to bet, would say, uh, that, that, that it is a sport. They do think it's an art, but if they had to choose, you know, they hear they're cheering for people with jerseys. , People that aren't into the WSL would take your stance where you, 'cause earlier you said, well, I think maybe more people would see it as, um, an art than a sport. But I I obviously we don't have the data on that. It'd be, maybe you should do a survey. I, I did, Michael Frampton: I did a small one on, on Instagram. It was, it was about 75 25. So more, uh, but obviously that's a small, that's my listeners. You know, when of course if you're talking to competitive surfers or even, even those who grew up as competitive surfers when they were younger, and, uh, they probably shaped their attitude when, even if they're not competing anymore, Devon Howard: right? Michael Frampton: , But I think taking, taking it seriously and training, and, and that doesn't mean it's not an art form. I mean, Goss, Neil Young has a nutritionist and a personal trainer, and do you know what I mean? Like, he wants to look after himself so that he can perform as art, right? Yeah. It's so can I'm take, still take art seriously? Devon Howard: No, I just, I was only sharing that because I, I'm not saying that there's a lot of people that think that way, but I was a little surprised how I. You know, when you can feel the shift in the energy of somebody who's not liking what you're saying, they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Devon Howard: And I had to kind of talk through it and, um, like, well, it's, no, it's not really the same, you know, like a, a fine painter or a jazz musician clearly is an artist, but, um Hmm. Just had to kind of like re rethink that aspect of it that yeah, it can be an art and it can be, you can also take it pretty serious. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I asked Donald Brink the same question and he was very much in the art camp, and, uh, sure, yeah. I mean, absolutely. And of course that segues into like, he's, when he shapes a board, it's an art piece, you know, and I think you guys at Channel Islands would agree is that there's a lot of. There's a lot of passion and, and thought and care that goes into not just how the boards perform, but how they look and their longevity and all, all sorts. There's very much an an art, an art form, and I wanna talk about the new surfboard, but I, I wanna ask you one question before we talk about boards, which we touched on it, that we spend most of our time in the water, you know, trying to read the ocean, look for waves and paddling around. Sure. Have you got any tips for people choosing the right waves and reading the ocean wave selection? Oh my gosh, Devon Howard: that's a interesting one because, , I use a lot of good surfers use lineups. So when I get to a new break and I don't know what's going on, , it's definitely no art involved. This is more like physics and science now where I. Putting on the cliff cap brain and looking at things, um, from a scientific, like naturalist point of view where surfers study, I think we study patterns. We don't think about it, but hunters, um, surfers that, you know, scientific observers, bird watchers, they study patterns. And so when you arrive to the new break, you're, you know, let's say you don't have a friend there, you have no idea. The old days before the internet told us everything to do, um, we'd have to figure it out. And you just start watching and observing the patterns to see what's going on with the bottom and making a guess on, uh. Sort of sometimes the safety of it. 'cause you could be at somewhere that's like a slab, that's a bit frightening. But if it looks, you can use tell right away if it's a, if it's a u, you know, user friendly wave. So then once you've established that, okay, this is a safe place to serve, , maybe I don't see any fin. So I'm like, okay, there's also hopefully no sharks. And then, then you get out and I, I use lineups. Um, I quickly establish two points on the beach. You know, it's like the two fingers there. It's like with these two fingers, I'll see two palm trees and I'll see a set come in and the first thing I do is I look over my shoulder and I look in and I find two points and I observe about how far apart they are. And then I'll look at the second and third wave and I'll look in and if they're still kind of happening in the same spot. I'm like, oh, okay. We're sort of in a zone and then I'll move around and try to find some, if I can get one of those, another object to actually line up with it. If I can't find something to perfectly line up, then I'll get used to like, okay, there's about that much space between those trees. So if there's this much space, I know I'm like, you know, way off. If it's like over now, if it's like crossed over and gone the other way, I am way off. So I study the pattern that I don't think there's any art to it. I just think if you have good eyesight, you have to use it and have good recall. So, you know, not everybody has good recall. You know, you, you see something happen and then you notice the pattern of it happening again and, and what has changed? Where did that. Thing that's happening move, or did it come in the exact same place? So that's what I'm doing. I'm triangulating, I mean, a lot. There's absolutely nothing new with that. Um, but I do, a lot of surfers I think don't use that. , I'm, I'm not an expert of surfing around Kelly Slater, but the few times I've surfed next to him, I'm not his buddy or anything. I noticed that he does the same thing I do. I'm looking over my shoulder all the time and it's not because I'm worried about someone kicking my ass or that I cut someone off. 'cause that could be a reason to look over your shoulder. Like I, um, it's, I'm, I'm continuously interested, am I in the right position? And, and I surf a lot of crowded breaks. So switching from like a new break, like I'm trying to figure that pattern out and establish it. That's like the first thing, the most important thing I do, um, at, at home where it's really crowded. I'm trying to understand the movements of the crowd with the current and where everybody's at. 'cause when the sets come, I want to, if, you know, unless I'm a visitor and it's not a break, I'm, it's not like my home break or something. , I wanna be on the top three waves. If it's my home break, if I'm visiting somewhere, I know I'm not gonna get the top three waves. , I mean, unless you wanna be hated and everyone to hate you in the lineup you're visiting, you don't grab the set waves. But you can still, even if you're looking for scraps and leftovers, you still want to be aware of where you are and knowing that triangulation. So it's like if I'm on a spot like Malibu and. Alan Sarlo, Andy Lyons, the Marshall Brothers, like all these people that surf there regularly, they're gonna get those waves. But I still wanna know where I am so that once those flurry of waves have come through and there's a few leftovers, those top dogs are out of the way. But I'm, I've ensured that I'm not way too far into the channel. I'm still deep enough in a good spot where theoretically, I mean, it is Malibu, you're gonna get dropped in on, , you, you would be in pole position. So I'm, I'm, it's, it's kind of interesting that to that I spend almost as much time looking out to see as I do looking in. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah, Devon Howard: no, that's a, that's a great lesson. Maybe Michael Frampton: that's a great point. And not only does triangulation help you stay from where you are, 'cause that's where the waves are breaking from, but it also makes sure that you're in the same spot to take all the observations as well. Sure. Which I think is, is important for, for getting to know the break and the patterns. You never Yeah. You wanna be a static observer because Yeah. On some swells, the, oh, it's a different period. They're actually breaking. I usually sit here, but they're breaking over there. Uh, so at least I, at least you know where you are and where you usually sit and now you know this, this is a unique swell or it's a different period. It's, it's breaking over there and you've got a new triangulation or a new observation. So there's lots of reasons to triangulate. Devon Howard: Yeah. I don't know if I answered your question. I mean, it was Michael Frampton: definitely Devon Howard: that idea of what do you, you know, what do you do when you get out there and, and. And then there's also, you see a lot of people who don't really do any of those things and they do just fine. I'm probably just overthinking it. Well, they probably, Devon Howard: but I don't know. I, I, I like the idea of trying to hone in on it. Um, I feel like really good surfers that are getting, some of the best waves really understand that where exactly where they are. They, they do look in. Michael Frampton: I think you also get to a point at, at a break where you don't have to triangulate as much just 'cause you just know, oh, there's a boil there. Whether you're conscious of it or not. You just kind of know where you are in a, in a, in a lineup. You get a intuitive sense for your positioning at, at a certain place. Um, yeah. Are you always just scanning the horizon, looking for the next set? You wanna see the set first or are you want ma la land? I do see waves. Devon Howard: I do because the waves in Southern California, a lot of times are pretty inconsistent compared to other parts of the world. There's some pretty big lulls. Southwell especially, you know, you can have 10, 15 minute lulls of the really bomber waves. So, yeah, I think so. Um, and just trying to see. Yeah. 'cause if people are talking, they're not paying attention, I'll key in on that. I'll notice they're not paying attention, so I'll do a little flutter kick and just sort of move a few inches one way or the other so that while they're not paying attention, I'm just a little bit closer. Yeah. Devon Howard: I'm, I'm not advocating or saying don't take your turn or snake people, but people can kind of work themselves out of the rotation but not paying attention. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Devon Howard: It's funny 'cause like, I find it obnoxious and annoying when people talk, um, a lot. I just, I think a lot of, a lot of people agree with this. My, I don't know if it's a generational thing, but surfing is a place to disconnect. We have. These things. We have all kinds of noise all day long, and the, the ocean's the perfect place. It's like going to a yoga class and everybody's talking. It's like, what? Well, I'll just do this at home. Like I don't need, this is a place to, we can be together and we can connect and vibe off each other's energy. I'm not saying don't say hi to people. Say hi. Hello. Michael Frampton: Yep. Devon Howard: That's enough. Not, but then like, let's settle in. It's like, it, it, I feel like the surfers in the sixties and seventies especially really understood that notion of meditation and just enjoying the quiet parts of surfing, like being okay with the downtime of a 20 minute lull and just sort of sitting there. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I, I totally agree with that. I used to be confused as when. Try and talk to someone. Sometimes people won't even say hi. They just, they ignore you and just watch the horizon. But then in the car park, they're the nicest, friendliest people you've ever meet. And you just gotta realize, no, that's, that they're there to watch, that they wanna see that set come first, leave them alone. And you should actually be doing the same thing, like focus in on the ocean. Like read the waves. Yeah. If you're feeling anxious, go in and catch the little ones. Just, Devon Howard: well, you, you actually get pulled out of the rhythm when, when I've noticed, when a deep conversation takes place, invariably you're, you're pulled out of the rhythm of the ocean and you miss, because as you're talking, those other people do, the flutter kicks and they sort of slowly move into position. Mm-hmm. It only takes a matter of inches or feet. Yep. Devon Howard: And shit. 20 minutes, people sort of forget whose turn it is. And if you're not focusing. That, that can be frustrating. So I, I'm, if I've ever been accused of being rude or too serious on the water, it's because I'm from that old school of be polite, say hi. But it's okay to be, have like uncomfortable silence. It's like being in a car ride with someone. A lot of people get nervous and uncomfortable if there's more than like 10 seconds of silence. Yep. Devon Howard: And then they force a conversation and think, well, if the person next to me isn't talking to me, they must be mad at me. It's not a waste. It's like, no, it's okay. Like, just be comfortable being, , in that silence that the, the movie theater thing says silence is golden. Yep. No, Devon Howard: I've had some friends say, dude, that's just way too harsh and extreme. Like you're in an environment where people are expecting to be really social and, and. Talk story and whatever, you know, like just jibber, jabber, like sometimes, I don't know. Yeah, sometimes not. I think Devon Howard: there's a time and place like, yeah, it's like nehi and just your buddy, like there's no hard and fast rule, but I'm just only bringing this up because it, it factors into all of these things that are in play. When you're in the lineup, you're trying to surf, you're trying to have fun, you're trying to be respectful. You're also trying to catch waves. 'cause some people are there to talk. That's great. I love it. Go right ahead and talk all you like It's actually good ground cover. The more people sitting there talking. Mm-hmm. Devon Howard: And not catching waves. Other people won't paddle out. That's too crowded. There's already 50 people out. Yeah. Devon Howard: But sometimes you'll find that half that crowd that has no interest really in getting that many waves. They're just kind of want to be out there. Michael Frampton: They'll, Devon Howard: they'll be happy to get a couple little scraps. Michael Frampton: No, exactly. That's a good point. And you certainly don't judge someone's social character based on the way that they sit in the lineup. It's, um, Devon Howard: so yeah. Well, somehow there's art involved in what we're talking about. Michael Frampton: Oh, definitely. Devon Howard: There's an art, there's an art to the dance of catching a wave and Oh yeah. The art is how do you catch a wave without everybody hating you? Michael Frampton: Um, make it look easy would be part of it, which is artistic in a way. Uh, be res, be respectful. Some, some people get away with it. Yeah. It's, it's a, that's a tricky comment. Well, Devon Howard: it probably has all the answers in those self-help books of like, how to have people like you, you know, there's, there's just things you do right. You're patient, you, you take your turn speaking in a room. You look people in the eye like all these sorts of things. And that sort of can factor into surfing. Now, if you're at like a hardcore lucked out spot where no one, like everyone's mad, you're there. No matter who you are and what you've done, that's a different story. But on your sort of average run of the mill surf break, that's very well known, it's not a coveted secret spot. Uh, it's, I I always find it interesting how you kind of, the art of moving through that lineup and finding yourself on a wave. Yeah. It's Devon Howard: satisfying in a way when you've figured out that it's almost like the satisfaction of being on a hunt, which is like a human, it's built into us, whether you're a vegan or not, it's, sorry, it's built into us to hunt. Mm-hmm. Devon Howard: You're just hunting for berries. Yeah. Some, some are hunting for, you know. An elk. Yep. Devon Howard: But yeah, Devon Howard: there's something satisfying about the chase or cha and like how you get there and the, the kind of the game plan of like, you know, human beings for as long as we know that we've been here on this planet with work together and kind of Yeah. Elk. Um, maybe not so much when you're getting berries. Um, and then surfing. We're all chasing the same elk, but in the end, only one of us wants to get So who gets the elk? Michael Frampton: There's lots of elk. There's lot, there's lots of elk out there though. Yeah, there's definitely a co there's a combination of reading the ocean and reading the room. Sure. Surfing in a, in a lineup and, uh, there is an element of like catching the wave or hunting the wave for sure. But I think once you are in a position where you're, you're just about to join the wave, then it's more about accepting the invitation to dance, then it is catching the wave. Devon Howard: Sure. Michael Frampton: Hmm. And I think that's a more artistic way of looking at it as well. Right. It's right. It's often the way I coach people as well that are struggling to catch waves as well. Change your perspective. Don't just hunt down the waves and try and catch the wave. 'cause you end up sort of, uh, you're being less efficient with your movements if you're just accepting the invitation to dance and your dance partner's playing hard to get, then sort of gives a different perspective on, on catching waves. Devon Howard: Yeah. If you want to get really woo woo on this, what, what about the. Um, I don't understand how this stuff works, but some people will call it the law of attraction. If you tap into the energy, like the energy we have as a human and what we attract, um, for example, if we're negative, um, low vibration, thinking about how bad everything is and how bad people are and that everyone's out to get you. It is really interesting that that stuff just finds its way to you more and more the person that looks at things with a more positive, optimistic outlook. Great things seem to find their way. Now there's exceptions to that, of course. There's really great people that do that and get struck with cancer, unfortunately. But I think by and large, there's a rule there and with catching waves and attracting waves. If you're like, ah, it's crowded, it's, I can't, ah, you know, you see people do that in a lineup and it just gets worse for them. Yep. They're the ones that get in an argument. They're picking a flight with somebody where the patient, people that are just really optimistic and believers that the wave's gonna come to them. It, it comes to them. And then there's the, like, there's the other like, um, really amazing ones that I've always scratched my head. , I've surfed with this guy Victor Bernardo, not that long ago. If you don't know who he is, look him up. Phenomenal surfer. , Wherever he would go, the waves would be I, and I've seen Mikey February do this. I've seen Tom Curren, I've surfed with Tom Curren. I watched it happen. Joel Tudor. There's just, it's more than just knowledge. Hmm. Devon Howard: There's some belief system there that is added into, yes, they have the knowledge, but I mean this happened to Britt Merrick not that long ago at Rin Con. Britt Merrick grew up at Rin Con, knows it better than just as well as any top local, right. Mikey February's sitting next to him and Mikey's having a great session and Britt's like, Hey sit Mikey, sit here. This is the spot. And you know, Mikey's really polite. Oh, okay. Brit. And just a few minutes later, Brit sees outta the corner that Mikey just keeps paddling deeper, like another 150 feet to this kind of area that pretty tough to make unless you caught the wave up top and you came into it at Mach 20. And then if you take off where Mikey is, you might get caught behind. And so you sort of like sit where Britt and most of the people sit and Mikey gets the wave of the day. Yeah. And it's like how it did these things and came to him in a way that didn't make sense to even the most knowledgeable local. I, I don't know what that means. Um, maybe, maybe a a really somebody who understands how the universe works could explain that to me. But there's something about is it his belief? Is he lucky? Is he just that good that he figured out a break that he hardly surfed? He only like, barely ever surfed or Rincon before that. Michael Frampton: Mm. But he is also put a lot of time in and a lot of, you know, there's a lot these surfers that, uh, that we see as magical and so good have actually put a lot of time and effort and I, I actually think, I remember surfing with Nathan Hedge. At North Narab, but everyone's sitting there and then Nathan starts paddling like an animal. And everyone's like, well, I was like, what are you paddling for? And then five seconds later, everyone else sees the set and starts paddling. He just saw the set before everyone else. He just had a hyper focus on that sliver of ocean. Or maybe it was an instinct thing just from his experienced or his pad pattern recognition is on a deeper level than us. So he saw a, a, a glint of a set further out the back than anyone else. Or maybe there is a logical way to explain it, or maybe it is a bit more woo woo, or I'm not, I'm not sure either. Hmm. Michael Frampton: It's interesting. But yeah, with the, the time we spend sitting there waiting and watching the ocean is, is a, is a big part of it. And of course, what we sit on, what we choose to sit on is a big part of it. And you see over my left shoulder here. Do you know, do you recognize who might have shaped that board? Devon Howard: Is that a Wayne Rich? Michael Frampton: It is a Wayne Rich. It's a harmonics. It Devon Howard: looks like that's it's a harmonic Michael Frampton: harmonic. 67. It is, Devon Howard: yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a stringer configuration he likes to do. , I think part of his stringer influences from Renny Yater. Um, so there's a little, those that know Yater, there's sort of like a, a little nod to him without stringer those stick choices. Um, and that's a great, great model. I've written it. It's awesome. Michael Frampton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a nine, eight. And, uh, you guys at Channel Lines have recently collaborated with Wayne. Can you tell us what brought Yeah. Wayne, why, why Wayne and what brought that on and how did, what was the outcome? Devon Howard: Well, speaking of artists and artistry, um, Wayne would. 100% beyond that side of the equation. Um, Wayne is an artist. He's really into sacred geometry and like really like spiritual living. , He feels things deeply. So I think a lot of us that know him, that's what why we're attracted to him. 'cause he is that passionate. He does take things seriously. I've been at Channel Islands at which I was just talking to my wife last night. I couldn't believe how long I've been working with Channel Islands, uh, came here in 2018. I'm like, wow. You ever have those moments where you just have, there's these timestamps where you started something, a friendship, a project, a relationship, and. And it's the things that go by that quick is usually you're enjoying them. It's when you're in living hell that things drag on and take forever. So that's, I think, a good indication that we're having a really great time here. Um, and I've, I've ridden a lot of different boards. I wrote TMAs growing up for a long, long time. Unfortunately, he passed away a little over a decade ago, close to 15 years ago, pretty soon here. And then I rode some friends boards, Tyler Hatzikian, Thomas Bexon, and a few others. Um, I was just sort of like a country list. Didn't really, you know, just kind of went and bought boards from whoever I was. Uh, Skip Fry. Got into those for a while. Um, the, the gliders, he calls 'em big boards. Other people call 'em gliders. Oh. Which is another story for another time. Yeah. Devon Howard: Um, why they're called that and, . Yeah. And so just being here, we did the mid and then, um, some of the guys would give me a hard time. They would see me writing these other boards that I just mentioned and just a little like, mark you on ci. Like, well, we, we have, there hasn't been a new long board design at CI in like 20 some years. They made a bunch of 'em in the nineties and early two thousands had this Mikey De Temple and other, so even Rob Machado had one, you know, and so they, they for sure had a go at it, but they sort of just leveled out. And long story short, selfishly, I, I wanted a board that the guys would give me a hard time on, and it had some channel analysts on it. And so talked to Britt Merrick and it's, you know, he's like, Hey, this isn't in my wheelhouse. It's just not where his, where he is at. He wouldn't even know where to begin, but. He, he had talked about Wayne Rich being somebody who, who, you know, he is a friend of the community. Britt's known him since he was a teenager. And, um, so it was like this perfect fit. We're here in Carpenteria, Wayne's a a a Rincon regular and been in this eight to five zone for many decades. And so, yeah, we just got together and we had a chat about what we wanted to do. So we made a board called the CI Log, which came out two years ago. And then this newest one we just came out with a few weeks ago, it's called the ci Nose Rider. Sounds like a lazy name, but, um, it does exactly what the name says it does. So the, the log was a Australian style, what we call, um, in like, people call it involvement style. It's where you're really moving around in the pocket. It's more of a dance. It's not just hanging out in the nose all day and just standing up there. It's, it's full tip to tail movement. And then the nose rider. Is geared more toward anyone that just wants to hang out on the nose. It's a great, like a Malibu, any point break, someone who's really hyper-focused on the nose, kinda like an air board. It's like, wanna do an air, get the neck beard too. Or you know, whatever model that is focused on that. And then I think the coolest part about it is just weighing the decades of experience and connecting with someone who's that real. I mean, you know, you have his board, he's just like the ultimate underground character. He's just been this guy that, um, you never had aspirations to blow up and be the biggest thing. And so I, I think we all feel real lucky that he was open to the idea of collaborating and , he has a lot of respect for Al Island. So it was just like a perfect fit. But I, I could bore you to tears about all the details of the board, but I think at the end of the day, it's just, it's a work of art. It is very functional. And makes nose riding easier. And then, , our friends at True Ames who are in now, they moved to Caria, but just down the street. Chuck Ames is over there and Troy mother's head and they made a fin that goes with it and it, we had a nice spin in it, but when we were done with the process of making a fin that compliments a board specifically, that's a really fun process. We did a bunch of, tried like almost a dozen different fins. It was over a number of months and made a few versions and then it made the board nose right, even better. So it's really noticeable. If I don't have that fin in it, it, the board still works great, but just works better. Everybody knows they've got a board at home. If they have the wrong set of fins in it, it's a totally different board. It can almost be like a deal breaker and then you get in that right set of fins on your, in your board. Magic. Michael Frampton: Yeah. So, Devon Howard: yeah. Michael Frampton: Oh, awesome. Devon Howard: We that, Michael Frampton: yeah. So it's the, no, the Nose Rider. Um, yeah. Arguably the best longboard shaper in the world working with Channel Islands. It's pretty cool. Devon Howard: I, I think it'd be hard. I, I don't think a lot of people would argue with that. It would, he's won the, um, you know, he is won that icons of foam shape off. He's, you know, he was just in a recent one. He was just in the final, he pretty much won it, according to most people. We don't get in those details, but another contest. Yep. See, trying to make a contest out of an art, which is shaping surfboards. Really funny, isn't it? Michael Frampton: It is funny. It is funny. Gosh, there, there, there's almost nothing you guys haven't done now. Oh gosh. I mean, if you could get skip Fry to do a, a big, a big board for Channel Islands, you'd have everything in your lineup. Devon Howard: Yeah. That's a bridge too far. People might burn. People don't like those things. They off gliders. They're bad for the lineup. Longboards are bad enough. But I think, you know, it's interesting, like you don't see as many longboards as it used to. I think every, not everyone, lemme back up. A lot of people who would've ridden a high performance longboard or a longboard have jumped over to a mid length. I think that's really cool. Where like 10 or 15 years ago, there was a bigger divide. There was high performance short boards, um, high performance longboards or logs, which kind of got popular about 20 years ago after the Tudor, the seedling and all that sort of stuff happened. And then God forbid you had subs, the, I mean, they were the most hated. Yeah. Now Devon Howard: the most hated might be foyers, but, um, so somehow the. On that, um, hierarchy of who's, who's the most hated, the, the, the traditional longboard has kind of maybe gone and rung up the ladder and kind of gained back some ground there. , But yeah, this is one of those things that's, you know, it's a timeless beauty and, high performance, short boards, they're always being driven by, by performance. And that formula one mentality of trying to be ones, just whatever that incremental step ahead is of your competition, you'll take it. So those guys, Britt Merrick and that crew, they're always like 30 seconds of an inch. I'm like, you've gotta be kidding me. But Yago Dora the other day, like, chipped his fin at J Bay just barely chipped it. He kept looking at his fins and he got out of the water and took that one fin at work. Any one of regular of us would've just kept surfing, but he felt it. Wow, interesting. So those people, yeah. Yeah. And then with traditional longboards, you don't need as much progression and refinement. So I think with what we're doing, it's like Wayne and I had these ideas. We, we did about a year and a half of refinement and it's like, I don't know what else we could do to this board to make it any better. It's insane. That's like a really cool, that's a cool feeling when you work on a project, whatever it is, you build something, you build a home, you build a piece of art. Um. Knowing

Is surfing just a sport—or is it something much deeper, a form of art that mirrors your soul? Whether you're a weekend warrior or a lifelong wave chaser, you've likely felt that indescribable magic in the water. This episode dives into that very feeling, exploring how surfing transcends competition and becomes a deeply personal, creative expression. If you've ever wondered why your best session had nothing to do with trophies, you're not alone. Discover why Donald Brink believes surfing is more about galleries than stadiums—and how that insight can reshape your approach to every wave. Learn how intention, presence, and lifelong curiosity can turn every surf session into a meaningful act of self-expression. Hear how legendary surfers and everyday wave riders alike find purpose, growth, and connection through a pursuit that often defies explanation. Tune in to hear Donald Brink unpack the soulful side of surfing and walk away seeing your next session as more than just a ride—it could be your masterpiece. www.brinksurf.com https://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=en Transcript: Michael Frampton: [00:00:00] Well, you mentioned them being art, which segues us into, I wanted to talk about, which was. Is surfing an art or a sport, or both? Now let me, , I'll tease you a little bit with some of my thoughts and then I'll, we'll get you to weigh in. So, the Oxford Dictionary defines a sport as senses relating to play pleasure or entertainment. , Some other, uh, definitions, , diversion, entertainment, fun, , frequently with modifying objective, , , activity that you do for pleasure and that needs physical effort or skill, usually done in a special area and according to fixed rules. So surfing definitely fits within most of that definition. Maybe not fixed rules, of course, if it's competition, it definitely does. And the actual, those are sort of some modern dictionary definitions of sport. And the etymology actually hasn't changed much in the origin of the word. I will [00:01:00] add I think those that have a background where their sporting youth was competitive, , you would immediately think that sport was, , competitive as well. And so obviously surfing fits that, but only in a small niche, OO of a hundred, uh, people, sort of, or a handful of competitive surfers in the world. Mm-hmm. Then art, which is definitely has a, some lucid definitions, but the dictionary may explain art, is in the use of the imagination to express ideas or feelings. , That can definitely, uh, explain surfing for a lot of us. Uh, the expression of ideas and emotions through a physical medium, often with the intent to evoke a worthwhile experience. Definitely surfing fits that. Something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings. Again, another definition of art, which I think surfing for [00:02:00] me at least, fits in there. The etymology of art. , Basically put a skill as a result of learning or practice. Donald Brink: Mm-hmm. Obviously how art thou art has been used in other ways, , which sort of comes back to one's identity as well, which I think, is a cool little nuance there. 'cause obviously a lot of us as surfers, we identify as surfers. It's not just something we do. , So there's a little bit of a history of the two words. , And I'd like to hear your thoughts, Donald. Donald Brink: Those, those definitions definitely have an overlap. And I think I would've, , if you asked me to choose one, I would choose art. And I, I think that, , that's changed over time and my confidence in, I, I want be rather just choose one so that it, so obviously it's both, but I would say it's art. And the [00:03:00] reason I'm more adamant on that now is because that's changed over time. Because even my work, people often ask like, oh, oh, these boards, it's such art, you know? And I'm like. No, it's like they're beautiful. They like, it's like, well, I want to hang it on the wall. It's like, no, just go surf. It's, it's like I, I do paint pictures as well, and you're like, that's art. You hang that on the wall, that's gonna, you're not gonna surf that. And then you start to realize either it's all art or none of it is. And, and that's a brave statement. And, and it's not to be cute. And therefore, to me, surfing is art because it has such, , depth and value and meaning to yourself and the inspirations. And, , the things that come along with the, the surfing life to me are sometimes indescribable. And that's what art is. You know, it's really hard to quantify exactly which brush stroke meant that thing come [00:04:00] together, which part of the light in a photograph. Convey that emotion and you don't want to start to study it in such depth that it, um, kills the bird to find the song that then vanishes. So you start to see these metaphors trip on themselves. And, , I prefer if, if there's art in everything to be endlessly fascinated by art, then this is art. And that isn't, 'cause those binary thoughts to me just make it, , they put endpoints on, on potential new horizons or potential dreams. And that's happened to me. Like a lot of board design, not a lot, but from time to time there's been waves I've dreamt about, or boards that I've dreamt about, or boards that I've dreamt on waves about. And those are treasured things. And I'll, I'll wrap this thought up with this. I, , I got to meet Phil Edwards. . A few months ago. I, I've seen him before. I, I'd never met him before. And, [00:05:00] uh, yeah. I was endlessly obviously inspired and fascinated by his legacy to surfing. And a mutual friend wanted to bring him by my shop and introduce us and I was like, such an honor. Right. You know, like, get him to meet Phil Edwards and he came down to the shop. , He was such a lovely man. We, we, how we, we got on like a house on fire. It was great. We were talking boats and design and all kinds of things. And I, one of the reasons I was so interested in him was 'cause he stopped surfing years ago. Just stopped surfing. And I, I was like, I'm always like, man, how do you just stop surfing? That's just strange to me. Right. And I wasn't sure how to ask that 'cause I wasn't conducting an interview. I wasn't sure it was even my place or space to ask. So I, I asked him flat out, I was like, this is, I'm not sure how it's gonna go. But I was like, Phil, do you miss surfing? No, it was about as, as, , as much energy in the way I said it then as it was when I just said it to you now, like, Phil, do you miss surfing? And he looked at me and, and he didn't hesitate much at all. He said, [00:06:00] you know, I have dreams about it and it's still so vivid, it's amazing. And he shared one or two things and we moved on and I was like, wow. It was as though he's still surfing. And it left me more confused and even more interested because I was like, man, imagine the, the data points that I'm getting from my surf just yesterday and potentially that I could get from today's surf could be things storing up inside, which you would hate to meter or measure, but they're in you. And I think they come out of one without being governed or policed, and therefore they're precious. I wanna respect them, and that, that's how art feels to me. I, I've been working on some mixed media, like, like challenging pieces, really like pushing myself as a creative being. And I say that because I can feel [00:07:00] the angst and ah, I can phone this in and just make it look pretty or I can try and find new ground. And, and when you do, stuff comes out from within that halfway through, you get these break points and they're like, wow, I, I didn't know I could do that. And it's, and you, it's not that you're impressing yourself. You, you just can't believe that you were able to be part of this dance of something that came to life, , really through you, not from you. And I'll challenge people to, to compare this to what they've felt in their own surfing. You know, you, you're out there sometimes and maybe it's even when there's a waves are good and then you take off on this little wave. My point is sometimes the most rewarding sensations come from the most surprising little nuanced events, or the most unlikely timing of things. , And there's just so much input on the sensors. It's such a sensory activity. [00:08:00] In fact, you would say it's sensational. And that, that used to really bug me, that that's all surfing was. The whole thing's just sensational. And I was challenging myself. What, or am I trying to ascribe too much to what surfing is? Am I trying to add too much value to it? 'cause I'm so either ridiculously into it or, or am I trying to put meaning to something that really doesn't have meaning and therefore make it okay? And no, I love it. I'm so grateful for it. I think it's entirely creative. If you want it to be. And, and I, I think the whole thing is art beyond, beyond words because you can't find the words to explain something to somebody else that meant so much to you. And over time those meanings and those things compound. So sport's cute, but I like to do art and I really, I really think because of that, you could be put [00:09:00] into, oh yeah, well you're an artist. And I'll kick back on that saying I think we're all artists and I, I've practiced art a lot and I've also practiced surfing a lot. And therefore I see the similarities and, you know, I think it's, , the act of surfing it, it really needs to be. Put together as, uh, the adjective and the noun. I guess now I'm talking out of turn, but the, the practice of surfing is something I like to say sometimes audibly. It's like, I'm going to practice surfing today. And it changes the energy in the, in the approach or, , the act of surfing lifestyle, the surfing lifestyle or the surfing life. , These are words you read on book covers, but I think they're really well thought out, you know? , So I don't mind how surfing's explained. I just don't like to be, I don't like to to have end points within my own understanding of it, because it keeps showing itself to be bigger and more beautiful and deeper [00:10:00] and with a bigger and broader community of, of things indescribable for all points of view. And for me, that's important and I'm grateful to be part of that. But, , that's more of a, , gallery setting than a stadium. Mm. And both are cute and both, both are necessary, but I would, I would prefer to be at the gallery. Yeah. No, that was beautiful. I loved that. And , the more I think about it and the more I analyze it, it actually makes me realize that surfing more and more is an art and not a sport. . It is a sport as well, don't get me wrong. If you go by those, , the definitions in air quotes, and I think for a lot of people it is only a sport because it's just something they do for a little bit of recreation here and there. And then obviously, obviously you've got the highly competitive people who treat it as a competitive sport. But for most of us, and I'd say everyone listening to this show, it is an art Donald Brink: for sure. [00:11:00] Donald Brink: And I think I'm not against sport. And that's where I think this could be like, it's like, are you for sport or are you for art? And that sounds like we're both for both. But I love the concept of sport. I just, I, I just think if I had to shake, that's why I was, I'm gonna choose one lane to honor that. So it's like, uh, I think it's more art than sports. , Yeah. Yes. And the other thing too is that it's so personal and it's like there's not many other sports which have such a, , closed feedback loop within just oneself. Like a team sport would naturally be your team player when you enter the ocean. , You might be amongst people, but you're really playing different games on the same court. You know, it's you and the ocean and your thoughts, but , the, the school is within your own life and you take away what I call stoke or those little joyous moments. Frustrating ones too. So there's wins and losses, but they, they're kept within one's own heart.[00:12:00] Mm-hmm. Donald Brink: And therefore, it's hard to show me another sport where that happens. So consistently at choice. Yeah. No surfing is closer to music than it is tennis. Donald Brink: Like, I like the concept. What I do like about parameters is they produce really good art. If somebody commissions you to do a piece and you have to, and there's a couple of confines or a narrative script or whatever, it, it really helps give a narrative guideline. And, and it, I think it helps produce good art. Agreed. Putting some confines and so that's why surfing competition is actually really interesting. Just to put a clock against the heat. You surfing against the clock. They're all really good. So. I, I do think therefore you could even argue, that's why the art's so good, because now that's you've put confines. Well, that's the [00:13:00] irony of it all. You look at a competitive surfer. The the ones that win, they're the, they're the best artists. The, I think the only competition in competitive surfing is like the strategy stuff, not the surfing itself. Right? It's the strategy and all that other bs. But once you're on a wave, even John, John surfing a wave in a competition is art. And that's why he's so good, because he is an artist. He's dancing with the wave. Donald Brink: I, I agree. , And so therefore it's like, yeah, those confines produced better art, so therefore it's art. It's, but my, back to my point, it's like trying to think of another sport where you are, , selecting to be so individualistic in your pursuits over and over. . 'Cause people often look at surfing at, at first glance, it seems like quite a selfish activity. And I'm sure it can be. I mean, it certainly can be. , But when you realize if you could cultivate your fascination for the sea, [00:14:00] it could be, , you could be a better husband for the teacher partner by your not surfing too much and also not surfing too little, right? It's pretty simple. So once you balance that fascination, that gets very, very powerful. And I don't see, or at least I can't think of another sport. 'cause I often think, man, what if I didn't get to surf or I couldn't surf anymore? Like, what would I switch this out for? And it, it ends in tears every time. I'm like, I've gotten so much outta surfing. And then you're like, man, am I so shallow that I, I hedge so much on this and I'm sure I'll find something or get really busy doing other things. , But. I can't, you know, I can't, I can't, I can't imagine replacing it. And I think you'd have to replace it with many things. . Yeah. To Donald Brink: fill the complexity of the, and that's why it's unique. That's what I love about it. It's so complex, like these central downloads that you go and get and those humbling [00:15:00] experiences, like being scared in the ocean is something that I do not take, take lightly. I mean, scared for your life at times. And that is such a gift to choose to do because many people don't get scared by choice often at all. And so to do that at will, the learnings that you once again, take away for yourself and you return to your tribe or your family, or your place, your, your neighborhood, your community, you return as a different person. Mm. Donald Brink: That's a beautiful thing, you know? Yeah. Maybe martial arts encompasses some of the things in surfing and that way it's, it's, it's risky. You're playing with the power of something external. Donald Brink: Mm-hmm. You have to be very skillful and relaxed in order to do it well. Donald Brink: Yeah. But I think the difference, uh, I like that. Sorry, I'm not [00:16:00] trying to be right here. I think the difference here is that you'll never overcome or, impose your will on the ocean. Doesn't matter how frustrated you get at the wave, it's, it's always going to, it, it's, the ocean's just so big. It's would be like trying to fight the mountain. So in martial arts, you'll, you'll generally explore with another human. So there's, within your mind, there's this concept of day one today. Whereas when you surf, the sea will always win. You're not stopping the tide. It's, it'll come up and down twice a day. That's what it does. And Donald Brink: there's a, that's where the humility comes. It's like, you know, you can't win. You're not, you don't go to the ocean to win. You go to the ocean to, , be part at best. , Yeah. Uh, so yeah, I've thought about this too much, it sounds like, but um, that's, that's why I'm like, no. The other sports that we, I always end up in these little cul-de-sacs. I'm like, no, no, no, no. It's, mm. Yeah. I mean, there's so many reasons why [00:17:00] I think surfing is more of an art. Then you're connecting with nature. It's, it's all, it's borderline a religious experience. It's the, it's challenging. It's scary. It's fun, it's playful, it's artistic, it's creative. It's, Donald Brink: mm-hmm. And those restrictions that you might, if you're commissioned to do a painting, has certain restrictions. Well, same with surfing. The waves are the way they are. The board you chose to ride that day is the way it is. Mm-hmm. The crowd is only gonna gift you certain waves. Like there are so many restrictions every time you go surfing. And if you can play the hand, you're dealt Right. You have the opportunity to dance with the wave however you want to and create yourself as long as you're in the right spot yourself. Yeah, exactly. Donald Brink: And not getting in anyone's way. Yeah. Yeah. It, it's interesting. That's. Think about these things when you're trying to understand like, you know, what a [00:18:00] governing body or a sport entity is doing right or wrong within a surf space. See how well I worded that? But you know, like the judgment on how to run a surf competition is, um, you know, it's endless. But I'm always wondering is like, it's almost 'cause it's, it's not a sport and everyone wants it to be a sport 'cause they're getting paid dollars to win, right? Or dollars to be endorsed. But the best parts that we love about surfing, like if, if there were no competitions you would land up with, what we would have left with would be amazing surf films and people enjoying the ocean every day. So if you think about the best parts, and this is just me talking now, but when I think about I do, I watch, I follow all the tour and everything and the like, some of the best parts are the fact that it's almost like a live version of a surf movie. And so it's still. It still is what we always will want and need and enjoy, but it doesn't necessarily make it a sport, it's just there's an [00:19:00] overlap of the things that it'll always be. Um, it's, it's just, it's really interesting and I, I do think it helps surfing and it makes surfing more understandable and more broad. And yet all of these things really don't matter. 'cause if you don't like surfing, then it doesn't matter. 'cause it's those who do will cherish it and hopefully be responsible with it. But yeah, it's, I, I don't know. Like I think you have to, ah, I'm talking in the wrong space. Yeah. But yeah, no, I think that, that, there's an, an interesting irony there because even those who treat surfing like a sport to the extreme, the professional surfer in a competition when they're actually doing the act of surfing. It is an art form, the same, the same way that an Olympic gymnast is judged. The, the ones who do it, the smoothest and the most beautiful and turn the sport [00:20:00] of gymnastics into an art form, those are the ones that win. Mm-hmm. Donald Brink: Yeah. It's, it's, it's neat to have winners. Um, it's, we like winning. It's funny, I was thinking about this just being on the Gold Coast at Burleigh, and if you had to suspend the competition and just have a group consensus of who surfed the point the best over two weeks, I think you'd actually land up with similar winners. Right. There'd be some incredible standout locals watching them understand that wave and surf it so well. But my point is, good surfing is inspirational. Like watching somebody. Put a performance, and you could call it a performance together. It's, it's so just, um, it's amazing and the depth and detail and nuances to us endlessly fascinating, but also to a layman, somebody walking up the point watching a competent surfer put a ride [00:21:00] together is it's, it's quite obvious, right? So like having to put clocks and jerseys and heats and buoys in place just to find that is almost hilarious. Like at the end of the day, the ocean knows we know, and yet none of it matters. And yes, it's still interesting, but you know, there's, here's my point. You know, those days when you, you went surfing and you realized that you were so in tune and you, you kind of surfed beyond what you thought you could and you didn't win anything and it didn't matter. Mm. Donald Brink: That, that is quite a beautiful thing. I think very rarely we've seen somebody do that in a final, and that would be the highest level of sport, right? To see somebody just lose themselves in a performance. And it's from time to time. I'm sure that happens, but my point is like, if you are not that person and [00:22:00] it, it really doesn't matter to you. So the fact that you can level up and go beyond yourself within these, within a sort of, and find new levels and heights and connections and have a dance put together on a wave, let alone a bunch of wave and put a session together. Like are we constantly at sport with ourselves then, is the question? Hmm. And in terms of winning? Yeah. Because like you described that the moment where you surfed better than you had, you won. Oh yeah. You won against. Yourself yesterday. Right? So you became a hundred percent, you became a better artist, let's say. And I, I think the competition surfer, I think when a competition surfer wins, they, the feeling is similar in [00:23:00] a way. 'cause they know, oh man, I surf that wave beautifully, probably because of the pressure. Pressure makes, made a diamond in that case. And not only did I win the thrill of the wave, I won some money, which gives me the opportunity to surf this amazing, the, the next amazing wave next year with only two people in the water and create more art and, right. So I think you we're winning a surf competition. I mean, look at Kelly Slater. He just kept on doing it. I don't think he, he didn't need the money. He didn't necessarily need any more trophies. I think he just wanted to surf pipeline with two other people in the water again. Donald Brink: Well played. I mean, that, that's the game of life then, not the game of surfing. It's like, oh, you get to jump through these hoops and you get, these are the little perks, you know, it's, that's quite brilliant. You know, we, I mean, you do that in any decision in life. You, you play the game according to your lifestyle you're looking for. So it's back to lifestyle now. [00:24:00] And therefore that's quite a creative composition of how to spend your days or your best, um, cardiovascular years, let alone your joints. Um, and for me, I choose surfing and it's, um, it that shows itself from time to time in conversations where, like, I, I have foil board at one time and it was incredible, but I, I just chose to not invest in spending that much time getting good at something else, which I know I'm gonna love. 'cause I wanted, I know life short and I want to be so deep in what I'm doing that I. I dunno if it's wrong or right, but for me I was like, I'm gonna stay purely focused in this lane 'cause it helps me understand my work. And I'm not judging anyone being divided in interests, but I knew how much time it would take someone like myself to get proficient at foiling. And so I was like, that looks incredible for me. I'm gonna say no, only 'cause I'm looking for a, uh, I know I could surf better and [00:25:00] deeper with the consistency that I'm still chasing. I think the consistency in surfing is the measure that most people don't talk about, and to me is the most important thing. , And the most consistent I can be with my approach to any day, any board, any session, and be in control of that consistency is really what I'm aspiring to. 'cause that then you can tap in and balance yourself in life like I can. Pop in at the beach for 40 minutes at the right time of the day with the right equipment, ride six waves, and be back to work and be radically changed with the shortest amount of, neglect to other things that I'm really interested in too, whether it be work or art. Right. So therefore that's, that's a creative balance. And therefore surfing is, it's, uh, I don't, even if you wouldn't agree, that's the creative act of surfing is creative, that the balance of its lifestyle is quite creative, you know? . Yeah. You've gotta stay on top of your skills, otherwise [00:26:00] you can't take those opportunities. Like, if you've got the opportunity to, to attend band practice once every month, and you don't practice in between, you're not gonna, you're not gonna enjoy that rehearsal hour that much because your skills aren't sharp and you didn't, you didn't sink in with the, with the song. Right. Donald Brink: I think the future of surfing is being able to be accurate in challenging conditions. I'll say it again, accuracy in challenging conditions. I've, I've summed it up that succinctly because I've thought about this so much, but I think as surfing gets more crowded and popular, uh, the difficult waves are gonna be the ones you get to enjoy either on your own or on the smallest or fewest people are like the smallest crowd, right? But they're harder to surf. That's why no one wants to mess with them. But if you're able to tap into that and either stay polished or just have fun and that's what you enjoy, I think it's really difficult to, to ride small, weak [00:27:00] waves. But it's, it's of huge value if you wanna stay tuned for when good waves do come or when you do get chance to be on a trip, or when you do get a day when it's too big for everyone else to paddle out. Like there's, there's a repetition and a favor to trying to stay. Um. But also that needs to be fun in and of itself. And I'm endlessly fascinated by these, um, small and crowded waves that I choose and get to ride on my own. And I'm not sure if it's just 'cause it's, it's better than fighting in a crowd or if it really is of long-term value, but it doesn't really matter. It's just interesting to me. So yeah, I'd rather set better wage, but also it's maybe not like when you really look back like what is surfing? And you're like, it's the pursuit of excellence within oneself. It means nothing to anyone else. So like if you said it was, um, [00:28:00] if you, sometimes I think of serving as a puzzle. What's the next piece to put together within a performance on that wave, let alone waves within a session you could build, , really difficult puzzles. That's quite a radical choice. So back to making things hard to get more out of it. Yeah. That's, that's just an interesting part of life. . Yeah. Imposing new challenges. It certainly elicits the flow state. Donald Brink: I like that you said flow state, because as you said, imposing new challenges. I was like, I, I, I don't know that surfing and tricks need to be, so, um, that sounds kind of sporty to me, like the tricks within surfing. It's like, well, yeah, there are maneuvers that seem unnecessary and they probably feel good and that's why you do 'em. But then there's efficiency in [00:29:00] connecting energy parts of a wave that we put together as what we call a beautifully ridden wave that felt good to do. That's what I'm consistently talking about. And if that requires an air within that, that's great. But the, once we consider categories of technique and, and, um, proficiency in a trick, I get a little lost. Can't do most of them, that's for sure. But that is a different thing. And I watched the wholesale vibe. It was fantastic. Like, yeah, yeah. It's, but it's a Donald Brink: different thing at that point. Surfing, I think simple surfing is the best, you Donald Brink: know? Well, until, until you realize it is, it might not be for you. And that's why it's, it's your own thing. Like it's, it's your own fascination. Like what are you really, fa like those ISTs must be incredibly fascinated by putting their body at those potentially dangerous positions over and over. Like [00:30:00] the, like imagine being injured and sitting out for that many months, that many times within a life that you're only 24 years deep in. I'm not sure I'm willing to risk that. And so you let some sections go, right? It's just a different fascination and an incredibly incredible ability and incredible amounts of, um, refinement gone into consistently pulling off maneuvers like that Netherland in a shallow pool. Um, it's like, what are you, fascinating? What are you fascinating with? And how do you unpack that best? Um, that that's, that's how you would approach a complex puzzle or a challenging art piece. It's just problem solving, right? Like how, I'm not sure which, which part of this next paintings a layer or, and then you, and then you break through and you find, ah, and then you get a little more momentum and then. You get, uh, you get the wobblies and then you lose confidence, and then [00:31:00] you get these little breakthroughs and then all of a sudden it's done and you at best know when to stop. And that's good editing. And that's probably the hardest part. It's kind of like surfing too, and it's like, okay, it's time to end the session and the waves are still pumping and you didn't have to be anywhere. But sometimes it's sit on the beach and watch the next four sets and just realize what you've been a part of. That's maybe a maturity that I'm starting to see. And it's, it, it, um, it doesn't add value to the session. It just helps resonate the memories that you've gleaned and therefore maybe files them better and protect, I don't know, maybe I'll get to dream out of or from them. So being really precious with those, um, times. Yeah. Do, do you think surfing becomes more of an art. The older you get or the better you get or the more experienced you get? Donald Brink: A hundred Donald Brink: percent. I think, I think one, one of the thoughts I had [00:32:00] today was, , if you think of surfing as an art, then it's like, well, there's some pretty bad art out there, mine included. At times you make terrible decisions or distasteful selections on a wave or on a board color or in a wetsuit choice. Like, like it's still life. The, it's not a, it's, it's not a hundred percent all the time. How boring would that be? And, and yet you see people's growth within their own surfing life. And that's why you don't want to judge. And these statements really need to be taken with huge amounts of salt, please. But you see people new to surfing that get fascinated deep enough, and then they wanna learn so badly that they'll almost like get in their own way. Then others just naturally acquire these skills and they're quite proficient and you realize they're probably good at a lot of things. They try, you know those people, right? Mm. Donald Brink: Um, they're just really quick learners or like taking feedback or pinpoints. And now with the amount of [00:33:00] coaching available and those kinds of opportunities, you can learn, you can shortcut the learning really quickly. And yet still, if surfing is an art, then your creative body of work is really your surfing life, your surfing lifestyle, the way you understand what surfing is to you and how you responsibly cultivate that relationship with surfing, which means with surfing and everybody else in your life too. There's, there's other relationships. It's always complex, right? Um, I think you'll see people surfing change over time and yeah, things go in and out of style and in and out of fashion, but you creatively get more, um, astute to what this thing means to you and how to balance it. . I think if you are only fascinated by very, very good waves, there'll be a time when surfing just gets so frustrated and you hang it up. I can think of so many people that have done that, and that's interesting. It's, it's not our, I am, and I'm kind of grateful for that. 'cause I'm kind of not sure what I'd switch [00:34:00] it out for. So that's their path to discover. But right now I'm fascinated by how it is and how I'm approaching it daily now. I guess surfing is like, if you think of, let's take, let's take music as an art form. If you are, if you first start learning the guitar Donald Brink: mm-hmm. Are you practicing art? Donald Brink: No. You, you, you practice so that one day you can play. That practice, if possible, should be fun 'cause it keeps you interested. And if you're interested for long enough, one day you might be able to play a song and sound like you would like it to sound. So when you learn to surf, you're practicing surfing, and one day you might get a really nice wave, come to you and you'll blow your mind that the, the feeling [00:35:00] of how that felt and the how ridiculously happy you feel for the next day, week, month, year. I don't know. My point is you walk away with that sensational, change the stoke, right? So I do think there are times when you practice surfing and there are times when you perform surfing and they're usually, um, premeditated. And if so often there is a overlap within it. Days when I'm on the beach training and I, I've used those words. I'm either going to therapy or I'm going to training and I'm surfing all by myself. Meaning I know the kinds of things I'm working on, like riding very difficult boards is a hard pill to swallow except I know what I'm looking for. And so that would be training, that would be like exercising one's ability, refining your ability, highlighting [00:36:00] your pain points. So there are times when I practice surfing like a musician, learning a new scale Donald Brink: a hundred percent. And therefore I'm staying tuned, I'm staying activated, I'm staying interested and not all of it is fun. And yet I know I'm on the larger overarching NA narrative. This is gonna return dividends. 'cause on the right section, I know my arms are gonna be in the right place. And with these films on this rail. This feeling is what I'm not chasing, but when it comes, I'm gonna be so grateful for it. Yeah. That's why I like that. Yeah. I I It's your intention, isn't it? If you're practicing or you're learning how to do something, but you're doing it because, like, think of music. If you, you're, you're practicing the guitar, you're doing it because you want to be good at the guitar as an artist. Donald Brink: Mm-hmm. Right? Not as a professional or a sportsman or whatever. [00:37:00] Donald Brink: Right. It's such a creative outlet. Like it's nauseating when you see somebody surfing really well on your, can't surf as well as that. Right. And you're like, wow, that must feel amazing. And yet to them it probably, it feels okay because they, they, until they're pushing themselves that feeling, and that's why I don't like the thing of tricks. It's like, it's not like until they land on your trick, they probably won't feel happy. It's, if you are not in tune, no matter how well you're surfing, you know that you're missing out on what you could have done or wanna do. Right? So your vision for how to surf that wave with, with flow and seamless transitions and reading the wave properly should be always growing. And when you do from time to time, get it right, it's undeniable. That's what keeps you coming back. So I think looking at other people surfing and imposing what you are able to do or can't do, you gotta be careful for that. You wanna push yourself constantly. And that's a practice. , , I mean, it's [00:38:00] almost like, it's like people learning to surf shouldn't ride good waves, which is a terrible statement, but it kind of could hold up, you know? Like there would be, I. If you went to low as an only really proficient surfer surfed out there, it would be an entirely different experience. Now, you wouldn't wanna put a gate on the, on the, at the, at the sea. Like you don't wanna, you know, gatekeeper the place. However, if you work on your surfing well enough and you get proficient enough, when you do get to surf a good wave, you are not gonna be in the way, you're gonna be in the right part of the way of doing the right thing, and the memory's gonna be really rich. So, yeah, I, I, I'm still trying, I'm trying to lend a surf still. Mm-hmm. Which Donald Brink: is incredibly fun. Yeah. The, the guitarist sits alone in the bedroom doing a lot of practice. They don't [00:39:00] practice on stage. Donald Brink: Please, no. Get off the stage. Go learn your, go learn your stuff. It's not the time or the place. Yeah. You might as well go down to the closeout beach and just catch white water after white water and practice your timing. There's reps Donald Brink: exactly. There's reps to be had with nobody around. And, and if you, if you, if you do speak to musicians long enough, there is this relationship with that practice. You know, it's kind of still, it's still really fun. And so if you think of surfing as a sport, then you would train for sport. And yet why you would think it is a sport. 'cause it's like people will switch it out for another sporty activity. It's like, well I'm not, I'm not running at the moment, so, but I've been surfing a lot. I haven't been going to the gym. I've been So you're switching it out for a cardiovascular. Endure endorphin releasing kind of activity. And that's, that's all true. But then you also need to switch it out for, well, [00:40:00] that means you should be, you, you're working on your pedal technique when you're surfing. Right. And then, and how the breathing exercise is going. And, um, the wave Ki program, how, which, which module, like there's parts of the responsibility to it being a practice that is pretty obvious if you want to call it a sport. And yet even more logical if you're creating art, 'cause you work on how things work and then you manipulate them or be able to play with them without of your, your, um, pantry of options. Yeah. You can, you separate practice and play. You're still an artist. Donald Brink: They coexist. There are times when I'll approach the sea and I'm certainly putting my hand up. Yes, this is a practicing session. I'm going to practice surfing, and yet there's still moments within which good surfing is happening, and I have the most amazing joy. So there's a performance that means nothing to anyone except myself. That's what surfing is. I [00:41:00] think that's odd, but they do overlap by the strangest ways, but they are, um, I just don't like that hard line between like the sep binary separation between practice and then performance. It's more, um, the lines are blurred as you, Donald Brink: uh, I'm trying to think the best way to, I was, this is one of the things I was thinking about, but, , I grew up studying the Bible a lot and there's a verse in the Bible. That, and it didn't, A lot of it still doesn't make sense, that's for sure. And, and it's, most of it's like skewed in a narrative that that's just, it's silly. Anyway, there's incredible wisdom there that I do look for. And, and the wisdom rings true, and therefore I like it. Anyway, there is a verse that says, go into all the world and share the gospel, and that gets like, oh, you should do it this way. But the, the [00:42:00] verse actually says, as you go into the world, and so what I was thinking about was like, is surfing who you are, what you do, but it's the way you do it, the way you, you go about life as a surfer. You do not drive down PCH without looking at the waves. Once you've started surfing, that's, it changes who you are. So as you go about surfing, the way you can conduct yourself as this artist, if it's art. Is there therein, I think is what the message was. That's that. If those were the words of Jesus, they make total sense. 'cause they, that seems to be true. You know, you can carry that with you. It's the way you go, as you go. Um, anyway, that, that was the best way I could understand it within my own self. 'cause I've wrestled with that thing before and I was like, well, that kind of makes sense with the art and the, the sport thing. So, so is Donald Brink: for whatever, is it worth surfing? Is gospel, [00:43:00] no, surfing is art. And if art has truth within it to you, then it'll be true somewhere else too. Like, so you can't force a narrative on somebody else. But if I talk about these things in surfing and you haven't felt them within yourself, then why does it matter? But if you have, then we resonate on a similar thing. And I'm not trying to be right, but if that makes a difference to how you see or understand something that that could be really joyous within your own life. Like this has got nothing to do with you or I, it's got to do with whoever's listening and there surfing. Right? Like I constantly have to remind myself, and it just happens naturally, really. But to get out of the, the what's going on and that it's going on, like you remove yourself from this. 'cause like, otherwise surfing is just selfish again, but it's, it feels something that you then bring back to the rest of of life with you. Mm-hmm.[00:44:00] Donald Brink: Yeah, I agree. It's quite simple and yet it's really difficult to put words to, and here I'm rambling on and on and on, but it, it, I do wanna be careful 'cause the words matter, you know, like, . I think not not trying to bring meaning to surfing, but just acknowledging that it has great meaning is, is enough for me. And it's taken years to get to a place being so comfortable to say that. And I think I didn't grow up in a surfing family. They have no idea about what this whole thing's about. It's pretty hilarious. And now having a young family and my son surfs and we are enjoying sessions together, it's such a joy. But they all know how much surfing means to me, and they, yet they don't understand that at the depth, nor will they ever, and that's okay. Well, Let's say you have Kelly Slater and Messi, the, the Great Footballer Messi. Sure. Both, both are artists, I would say. I would say Messi is an artist within the sport of football. [00:45:00] Donald Brink: Mm-hmm. And I think that he would say that football is a bit more than a sport for him personally. Of course, like his relationship with the field and the ball and the goal and the opposition, et cetera. He would probably describe it similar to the way you and I might talk about surfing. His love of the great game and, and then when you watch him play, he's, the ball is on a string and he's, he's doing art. So I think that for surfers, surfing is your thing, but then other people, whether it's football or cross stitch or whatever it is, I think almost any pursuit can be an art if it's given enough. . If it's given the permission, if you give yourself permission for it to be an art, and it means that much to you. So the best, right? The, the people that are at the top of their field that do whatever it is, beautifully, you could say it's an [00:46:00] art for them, whether that's a sport like football or tennis, or whether that's painting or music. Donald Brink: Well, there's a mastery there for sure. , Yeah, I, I agree. If, I mean, if something's fascinating enough, you'll go deep within it and within depth , there's incredible beauty, you know, , messy and Kelly have complex lives, and yet they've seen something deeper than most other humans would ever see in that space. But that even at the end of it, it only means anything to them. And then we can glean and look and listen from it. But at the end of the day, you come back to your own life and your own surfing and your own soccer ball, and who are we? So there's this narrative of like, can I create. But yet I'm also in creation. It gets as simple as that, you know, like you're part of something and yet it's still you and yours. Um, and then you get to share within that. Like I think the gift that Kelly's given us has been incredible. He [00:47:00] is, , contribution to surfing beyond many other things is very inspirational. And the way he carried that torch, I'm sure he is looked back with regret on some things, but for the most part, like he's incredible ambassador. You know, I've heard him speak at many things about those kinds of things of how much surfing's giving him and how much he wants to give back. And it just makes sense. Um, , I was watching this. Art show. Gosh, it must have been 16, 17 years ago. It was a long time ago. And it was an art competition with these artists that they would give them. , It was kinda like a cooking show. You'd have briefs and then someone got eliminated. Someone got eliminated and throughout the weeks, and then you'd land up with four finalists and they had a commission and they did this thing and they chose the best artist. And once again, it's like, man, it kind of got cringed 'cause he had to make it competitive to make it meaningful. Anyway, similar to what we're talking about. But I remember, I, there was this one [00:48:00] artist, I really liked his work and, um, he didn't win. But what he did in his final was, it, it was really, it wasn't clever, it was just well thought out and it was moving. , I, I still remember it. And one of the judges got up. I wish I could, I wish I'd remembered their name. I wrote it on a sticky note and stuck it on the bottom of my computer. And it said, good art isn't what it looks like. It's how it makes you feel. And he didn't win. And that was the condolence to him. Like, 'cause you could tell he should have won maybe. And yet the scores showed that he didn't. , But that's what they said. They said, good art isn't what it looks like, but how it makes you feel. And it was very helpful for me at the time, creating, I've always been creating, but like formally showing up and getting commissioned or paid to create [00:49:00] something, whether it's a surfboard or a painting, photograph film. And so therefore understanding that was very helpful. And then when you think of the conversation of surfing being so much of a feeling, and that's okay. There's a, there's a really beautiful overlap there. It's not what it looks like. It's how it makes you feel. You know, when you, it feels like you're ripping and you're not. And then you learn to surf better and you realize that you're inefficient. And now you can get to more places with more agility and ability and it flows more proficient. Like that's why we want to get better at surfing. But the end of the day, as long as you're not in anyone's way, if it feels good, that's, that's kind of a good thing, you know? And that's enough. So yeah, I had those thoughts the day thinking back about art and how it feels to create and there was an overlap there for sure. And I dunno what it feels like to be a very proficient [00:50:00] sports person. And that would be interesting to, 'cause I don't know what that's like. So it, it's, it, I don't have a good point of view on that. So I'm already just talking as an odd point of view. I'm realizing I've played sports, but I'm, I've never been that good at something or played it for this many years, you know? Well, how it makes you feel. Yeah. As a surfer, nothing feels better than surfing. And if you are a Donald Brink: surfer and if you have the perspective that surfing is an art and you're expressing yourself creatively, surfing is an art, especially for you. And then you take someone like, , I mean the film Kelly Slater Black and White, is a beautiful piece of performance art. Not, not just from Kelly himself, but the filmmakers as well. But obviously the focus is Kelly's surfing, which is performance art. And how does that make us feel when we watch it? Like we almost get, oh wow. I can imagine what that might feel like. I wanna go surfing [00:51:00] now. Donald Brink: Right. So, and then messy playing in front of 50,000 people he's performing there is, is an element of performance art the way he would feel. I. You know, obviously he would love kicking a ball around by himself. But to, to score a goal in front of 50,000 people that are cheering at him, there's a, a certain, a different feeling, not just for him but his supporters as well. So they would get to feel some of what, oh wow. They can imagine if they play football as well as sitting there watching it. They can imagine what that must feel like to score a goal that beautiful in the heat of the moment and Donald Brink: Right. So therefore a sports athlete could also be a performance artist in that scenario as well. Donald Brink: I mean, you see people like you stand at pipe and watch somebody score a 10, I've done it the last two years. It's pretty incredible. Like watching Baron getting blown out of that wave and the clock time. Like there's an energy within that and [00:52:00] once again, like that becomes bigger than what it was. So therefore, like this whole thing is you, you, you, part of creation he was creating within create, I can't think of better ways to. Try and understand it within myself and even not, not trying to put words there to meaning and an end, but yeah. He was creating within that creation. And the creation was this man, that amount of people on that beach with that many people watching online. And it was such an energy. It was, it was really cool. And those are little moments of Lavonne and it's, it's a beautiful thing that was art created for sure. Um, that's a museum time, you know, museum piece. A little capsule. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Art is so, gosh. Yeah. This, I mean, performance art. And you think it's, you know, when standup comedians often when they talk about themselves, um, you know, they are performing artists. Oh yeah. And they're often very self-aware and they'll even say, oh, I, I love being on stage. I love being the center of [00:53:00] attention. Please look at me. Please laugh at my silly dick jokes, or whatever it is. They're very aware that they love the performance aspect of it and Right. Being the center of attention and whether someone like Kelly Slater would, would be willing enough to admit it. I, I think he gets off on being the center of attention and a performing artist. And I think a lot of athletes are that. However, if he's to surf by himself on some boat trip when everyone else is, uh, having coffee, he'd get maybe more out of that or just as much. And that, but that's more for himself. It's still, it's still art. I mean, I think surfing is a, as many different forms of art. Donald Brink: I mean, it's a yes and right, like you're still a human, like someone stroking your ego at that level, you know, of course you're gonna tap in. But I often think of it this way, like, if all the surfboards went away tomorrow, would I still show up and go for a body surf? [00:54:00] And it's an absolutely yes. So like if you strip things down to like, are you really still interested in this? If all the competition goes away, would those surfers still surf? I'm pretty sure most of them would. Right. So therefore they are surfers. Are they winning surfers? Well, that comes and goes. But I like to think of it as simply as that like without a board, you still enjoying the waves or to see, or just a body of water, and therefore, like, it kind of takes the nuance of all those other things. Of course, they matter and they feel good or whatever, but I do like the concept of surfing in the, in the simplest form, you know? Mm. Well, I mean the, in the analogy there of body surfing, you are, you're still surfing and you're, you're connecting with something bigger than yourself. Donald Brink: Exactly. And something that has a long history behind it too. Playing in the ocean. Donald Brink: It's almost like listening to our [00:55:00] conversation now and trying to like, really. Not see if I'm saying the right thing with just clawing for words here, but it's almost like a surfing competition really should be showcasing that. It should be more of a waterman appreciation thing. Like who's the best body surfer, aerialist, tube rider and point surfer. And I can tell you exactly who I think would win those, like the axle woodman. And you're like, oh, well this isn't what we're doing. This is what we're doing. It's, it's all fun, man. It's all good. But I, I do respect the creativity or the art, the art life approach or the surfing life. Art life, surfing life. Transposes, the art, artistic creation or expression of someone being proficient from body, surf, swim to, to bride. I could name my two favorites and it's, uh. That is incredibly deep to me. Like, wow, the things they must have felt and seen and the way they carry [00:56:00] themselves through life with those memories and responsibilities is, that's pretty high level man. That's, that's a life, that's an interesting world of life. I, I, in my opinion, I'm interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. The connection to the ocean. And then from a performance perspective, you're connecting with the audience as well, you know? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the connection is a through line. Donald Brink: Yeah. I think 'cause you're present, you know, like it's, you, you start landing up in, um, yogi terms yet pretty quick. It's, um, like, yeah, you, you're in it, you know, you're only feeling it. And I'm like, yeah, that's, that's cool. Yeah. Touche. Yeah, it's good. It's good stuff. I mean, but yeah. Back to the listeners. I see, I wanna keep thinking about these people. I can't believe they're still listening. I think there's three of them. I dunno. But set out to, like, [00:57:00] I don't say, I don't wanna like premeditate surfing, but set yourself these little challenges and go play in the sea with this. I'm still learning mentality. It's, it's quite liberating. Um, I'm practicing surfing. If you say it out loud, there's actually some science behind, I forget exactly how they quote it, but like, um, it interrupts the conversation in your head. So, Donald, I'm going to practice surfing right now. You address yourself in first person and it, it's quite disruptive, but do it with your surfing. Like start playing and messing with it that much, that responsibly. Oh man. It just gets more interesting and it, and interesting is the word I choose because it doesn't get, um. Deeper. It's already deep. It's just looking into it for long enough that, uh, is the difference maybe. Mm. I I like to say to myself, I, I'm going to play surfing. 'cause I like the music [00:58:00] analogy as you're going to play music, I think brings an element that Donald Brink: conversation with that exact, uh, concept. Yeah. The act of play in that we don't use it for surfing. I've had this with a friend just, just a month ago, like, yeah. 'cause he was writing, , Substack articles on play. The concept of play and how it's like, it, it really well written pieces. James, lovely young man, and he, um, I was like, man, it's interesting that we don't switch that out for surfing. We don't come play surfing. We come and maybe practice surfing or just perform surfing or just do surfing but play. And we riffed on it. We were in the water, which it was not a great place to chat, but we took the conversation on land and. It was, I like that to play surfing. . Ironically, the best surfers in the world, they learned from an early age, which is when it was pure play. Kids just playing with the whitewater and then on body boards and then trying to surf Dads surfboard, they're playing [00:59:00] with it, or watching my kids learning surfing now, and they just, they don't wanna surf like anyone. They just love catching waves and just playing. Donald Brink: Well, I, I agree. I think that's really interesting. But I do think now in 40 years, we're gonna be able to have data and have to look back and see people that started surfing late and, and die surfing after staying true to it, maybe being exposed to it later. What that kind of relationship will be later. Like if you started playing, would it, uh, on an average forecast that it'll end this way, or if you. Arrived to it late. I was only 15 years old when I started surfing, which is quite a late blooming. Right. Um, but then there are many examples of pros that started that late too. I believe Dan Reynolds started. Oh, really? Oh, I didn't know that. I think so. Wing Wingnut started at 17, but he body surfed since he was five. Donald Brink: Uh, maybe a better grounding to be honest. Um, but there are people that start later and [01:00:00] it, it, it is interesting. I, I do like that concept of play, but I don't think it's, and that's what's cool about surfing. It's not, there's not one way. Mm. Donald Brink: It's, it's your way 'cause it's your surfing, you know, like it's, it's your thing. Yeah. Yeah. Food for thought. Yeah. Well, actually in, in the episode with Aaron James, we, we talk about that a lot. About the play, play, play and, and stuff. Really interesting. He had some really interesting thoughts on that. That's episode 1, 1, 1 for listeners, but yeah. Um. I think the year your relationship with surfing does, not everyone, but a lot of us, it evolves and it becomes more playful than we get. Well, that would make sense. Donald Brink: Yeah, that would make sense. If you look at the rest of life, you know, you see some PE people retire out of what they formally did as a career and start picking up new interests or whatever it is, like life moves on and so do you. And therefore, as you change and your understandings and your, your vault of [01:01:00] memories come with you, you know, we are who we are and we've been fused and formed from the goods and bads that have happened to us. So like, like those things, you are not in control of everything. And yet to be able to approach something and tap into it with this practiced years of appreciation, I highly really like that. Uh, because you don't know what's coming. And I just, I'm grateful for every day I do get to surf. Um, yeah, I, I really am. I think that every day that goes by, the gratitude deepens. Like what this is. Um, yeah. For me Donald Brink: it's been LA lately just sitting on the beach and watching a few waves and it's like, okay, well maybe you don't have the luxury of time. Just no. Like if you have 45 minutes to surf, we'll sit on the beach for five of those and watch waves. It's a good investment I fund and this is what I've found. So try it on for yourself and see if that fits. But I think it's coming out of [01:02:00] this large gratefulness, this generosity towards what it is and just even removing yourself from it and like letting those waves go and ridden. This is a beach and nobody was at the last two days me surfing all by myself and it was like, just sat and watched a few waves and it was meditative in a way. Uh, meditative. Yes. Donald Brink: Oh, definitely. Yeah, that's been fun. Cost nothing and it's changed everything. Like that was just the last two days. I had no idea we were having this conversation. Like there it was. It was like, that is interesting. I'm just gonna watch. I'm gonna wait for the next set now. It was just so interesting. It was like mindset and, and what it did was just, just blossom some. This gratefulness within me has, has really, it was quite surprising, I would say that. And I'm even more grateful for that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We used to do that a lot more when we were young. In between surfs, often just watching waves when we had time. Donald Brink: It's almost like watching surf competitions [01:03:00] for me is like just watching somebody else ride away is, it's like, it's just interesting enough. I mean, you can sit and watch that all day if you had the luxury of it, but it's like eventually you just wanna go surfing and driving yourself nuts, but, mm. Yeah. Or maybe get, or you get to fill, Edwards is age and is maybe just dreaming about it's enough. Donald Brink: Gosh, it was such a interesting conversation and, and yet he was so poignant and direct. I, I was really, I was like, oh, I'm really glad I asked him. And, um, yeah, he was, it didn't offend him at all. I took a chance, but yeah. What a neat man. Yeah. Gosh, it was so cool talking about boats and holes and designs. It was really, really neat. Yeah. Oh, cool. Donald Brink: I can't believe he hasn't been interviewed. I mean, like, oh, has he not, Donald Brink: I show me an interview. I mean, like, he was notorious for like, not really speaking about surfing and his, like he's, he lives down the street. I, I, now that I know what he looks like, I see him, but, um, yeah, I'm not sure if he's just not approachable, if [01:04:00] nobody's taken the time. I'm not, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure that it would be a, I'm pretty sure that either David or Scott have approached him. I'm sure I remember them talking about it. Donald Brink: I wouldn't be surprised that he turned it down, but it would be a shame for him not to have his, uh, not everyone wants to do that, and that's fine. It's his own thing. Yeah, no, Donald Brink: understandable. It's, you're, yeah, you're surfing your own thing too. It's like, it almost feels rude, imposing our thoughts on what this is to others. And that's why I'm like constantly trying to think about how people are listening to this, and it's like, just shut us up and think about it for yourself, like, and take ownership on those things and share them accordingly. But that's kind of, there's a cringe factor, and yet there's also this gratefulness to be able to talk about these things, let alone to live the life looking at them for this long, like, that's the gift, really. So yeah, I, I am grateful for that. Oh, and I think it's awesome. People want to hear different perspectives, especially from those of us who are in the industry, who have had the luxury to do it more than them, [01:05:00] and immerse ourselves a little bit more. Any little nuggets we can give them might help them in their weekend warrior journey and to get more outta life and stick with it and yeah. Become better surfers and, uh, more focused or more present artists. Donald Brink: I like that thing. The more present artists. 'cause I, I practice art too. Like I do a lot of art, but there's, yeah. I could Donald Brink: walk in right now and show you the doodles with Drew yesterday. And I've been trying to show my kids, like I set on little assignments. I'm like, oh, you need to write a thank you card for so and so and or all you have to do is spend five minutes to

Is your surfboard truly helping you become a better surfer—or just keeping you comfortable? In this episode, we explore a question that many surfers overlook: are you riding the board that suits your potential or simply what the surf industry has marketed to you? Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned surfer, learning how equipment shapes performance and self-discovery in the water can revolutionize your approach to surfing.   Discover why changing boards regularly—even riding the "wrong" board—can massively accelerate your progression. Learn from Donald Brink’s radical experimentation with ultra-narrow surfboards and how it unveiled new layers of wave reading and board control. Understand the deep connection between board design, wave selection, and self-expression that transforms surfing from sport to personal art form. Tune into this eye-opening conversation to challenge what you think you know about surfboards—and uncover the path to becoming the surfer you were meant to be. http://www.brinksurf.com https://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=en www.surfmastery.com Transcript:

What if your best surfing is still ahead of you—even in your sixties? Many surfers fear they’ll lose their edge with age, but Tony Roberts proves that it’s possible to surf better than ever through intentional lifestyle choices, foundational training, and a lifelong commitment to progression. In this episode, we explore how rethinking surfing as a sport, not just a pastime, can lead to lasting performance and deeper fulfillment. Learn why starting with longboarding could be the single best thing you do for your shortboard technique. Discover how the right mindset between sets—using mantras and mindfulness—can transform your in-wave performance. Get inspired by Tony’s radically focused lifestyle design, optimized entirely around surfing longevity and peak performance. Hit play now to uncover how Tony Roberts has redefined aging through surfing—and how you can too. Tony’s Website etc: https://trsurftrips.com/home/ http://www.youtube.com/@RealSurfStories https://www.instagram.com/trsurfing/?hl=en Tony on Surf Splendor Podcast: https://surfsplendorpodcast.com/025-tony-roberts/ Episode Music: https://www.instagram.com/tuanizmusic/?hl=en Transcript: Michael Frampton: All right. Well, welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Stoked to have you on board. And I'll just do a quick intro and then we'll get into it. , Tony spent the first little chapter of his adult life as a pioneer in the filmmaking and photography surf industry. And then the second chapter of your life, let's call it, you, dedicated yourself to becoming a better surfer into you're now in your sixties now and surfing better than ever. , You almost epitomized the ethos of this show. And my first question, Tony, is describe to me in the listener , your current relationship with the ocean, how it's evolved recently, and what has remained consistent. Tony Roberts: My current relationship with the Ocean is. The focus of my life. [00:01:00] So that means everything that I do is in an effort to maximize my enjoyment and performance in the ocean. , What has remained consistent is that the ocean has been the focus, whether it was, as you said in the first chapter of my life, which was, or the first half of my life I should say, which was filmmaking and photography, which was centered around shooting, surfing and skateboarding, which is kind of the roots of that goes back to the ocean. Then the last half of my life has been about actually the act of surfing. So all the land stuff I still skateboard. The [00:02:00] skateboarding, the training, the nutrition, the mental and physical flexibility is for the surfing. Michael Frampton: Wow. So surfing in the ocean has remained consistent. Where, when did that passion start? Tony Roberts: When I was eight years old, I was very fortunate that I was raised right on the sand in Capitola, California, which is on the very, very inside of the Monterey Bay. So it has all these perfect little grom spots. So it's the perfect place to learn how to surf. And then as you go up the coast north. You have point break after point break after point break that gets bigger and more exposed to swells. So it was just the ideal learning ladder to climb. It went from capitola to trees to privates, to sharks cove to the hook [00:03:00] to pleasure point to the west side of Santa Cruz, steamer Lane, Stockton Avenue, and then up the coast, which is open ocean. So you have Wadel Creek, Scots Creek, and then started traveling to Hawaii, Australia, Indonesia, Peru, and the whole world. Michael Frampton: . That's interesting. It's, it's a common thread with a lot of great surfers is they were exposed to good beginner waves very early on in life. Do, do you think that really did shape your surfing passion? That, that, uh, we'll call it a gentle, gentle, or appropriate introduction to surfing at the right age? Tony Roberts: A hundred percent. Not only did it form my passion, because I saw all these people that were surfing and skateboarding, and this was the seventies, so it was right in the middle of the hippie era. So it was these free and free love. My parents were hippies, and so I, I saw the passion around me and was able [00:04:00] to really have that injected into my early persona. But more than that, I think the technique of learning at a beginner spot, where ideally if you're gonna learn to surf, it's at a young age, and at any age it should be on a slow rolling wave with a big board. So you can learn the basics and the trim and the core strength before you have a short board. And you're, I. Able to learn proper technique. So yes, growing up in a beginner friendly zone and being able to graduate up was crucial in my not only passion but skill. Michael Frampton: . Once you'd sort of clicked onto surfing and were surrounded by better surfers and better waves, was the desire to, [00:05:00] to be one of the better surfers? Was that, how did that form Tony Roberts: Yes, absolutely that was really cultivated skateboarding because at Skate Park So Cal, which was close to my house, I was able to really quantify my progression. Whereas surfing, that's kind of hard to do, but a lot of the best skaters. Skate parks, So Cal were of course great surfers. In particular, Kevin Reed, the guy who invented the aerial surfing was a pro surfer. Pro skateboarder, and he mentored me. So as a young kid, I was able to look at this amazing surfer, skateboarder and really quantify my progression. So I really wanted to be progressing and I wanted to be [00:06:00] the best guy for my age, and I wanted to win contests, surfing and skateboarding. And I wanted to be able to surf the waves that I saw in the magazine. So that desire for progression was planted very early. Michael Frampton: Was a big part of that. A desire to be able to surf faster and bigger waves. Tony Roberts: Absolutely, we'd go to the surf movies and it was all about Jerry Lopez, Reno. Avalara getting goosebumps right now. The, the big movie, you know, with the, with the soundtrack and, and the dramatic narration. It, it just got into your bones, it got into your blood. And I saw those waves and I wanted to surf 'em so bad. But also in the seventies, of course, it was the busting down the door era. And my friends were just all about [00:07:00] bk. , James Jones. Uh, Rory Russell. But in reality, for me, it was all about Rabbit. Pt. Mp. I was really attracted to Australia, and as a very young kid, I knew. When I got the chance I was going to surf Kira Burley heads, and that was really my dream. So my entire youth surfing was working towards that. Michael Frampton: More performance surfing rather than big wave surfing. ., Back then, particularly did you approach surfing as a sport or an art Tony Roberts: as a sport, which didn't really exist yet? It was still very much [00:08:00] so. The, the flow and the hippie aspect of surfing, that's what was in the magazines. Hmm. And a surf photo it in the seventies was the wave. A surfer was a detail, but skateboarding was different. There was a lot of fisheye, close photos in the skateboard magazines where the action was the entire photo and the bowl or the ramp was a mere detail in the background. And I was so influenced on the skateboarding end of things because I was 50 50 my whole life. And so I wanted to perform. I wanted those repetitions and so much so that surfing as a youth, if I didn't get a lot of waves, I would come in unsatisfied and go skate to be able [00:09:00] to fulfill that, that desire to be complete. And so I think that it was very much a sport. For me personally in the age of it being an art. Michael Frampton: Interesting. And has that changed? Do you still, do you see it as more of an art now? Tony Roberts: No, not at all. It hasn't changed. Um, what has changed is that I love to ride traditional longboards. I love to ride single fins. I love to do a style of surfing that's very artistic, but it's in a process of becoming a more complete surfer. And I feel that those styles of surfing are incredibly technical in a different way. But having done airs [00:10:00] surfing my entire life, starting when I was pre-teen and getting to a stage to where in my forties, wanting to learn traditional longboarding for the first time, I. And so I'm more driven to be a complete surfer and be as good of a surfer as I can be. It gets more intense as the years go on. Michael Frampton: , Interesting. How did, you mentioned, uh, when you started, you started longboarding in your forties. How did that change or influence your shortboarding? Tony Roberts: Wow. I, I have to say it was probably the most important thing I've ever done. , As my foundation became so much [00:11:00] better, my bottom turns trim, board speed, and I was very fortunate in that I was living in Costa Rica at the time. And a friend of mine, Chris Klo, started bringing down the best traditional longboarders in the world who were young guys, Alex Nost, Jared, Mel, Tyler Warren. And when I saw those guys surf, I had a revelation and said, wow, I really want to learn to do this. And, uh, so I got to hang out with these guys, buy boards from them, learn to longboard surfing with them, and actively ask them, what am I doing wrong? How can I improve? And so they very transparently told me what I was doing wrong, what I was doing good. [00:12:00] And that clinic of foundational surfing helped my shortboarding. By leaps and bounds. Michael Frampton: . Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I agree. I've interviewed Bud Freis probably six or seven years ago, and that was one of his tips is to get a big old log and learn how to longboard best thing you can do for your short putting. I took his advice and yeah, it just, it makes you, it forces you to read the wave differently. It slows you down. You've gotta predict your lines differently. You gotta be slow, slower, and more accurate with your movements. Lots of stuff. Footwork, lots of stuff. Tony Roberts: Yes. Yeah. Michael Frampton: , What aspects of longboarding do you think contributed to your, to, to what you just mentioned? Can you break it down a little bit for us? Tony Roberts: Absolutely. [00:13:00] First and foremost, it is, I. When the waves aren't good for shortboarding, you're out there using a part of your brain that is very ambitious in trying to perform, not just enjoying nature and cruising and going through the motions. No really getting intense and trying to do something amazing. And that is a day that if you're trying to shortboard, you're pretty much kidding yourself. And so a day that's maximum longboard, traditional longboarding is minimum at best shortboarding. So that's first and foremost. Secondly, the core strength required to properly trim and turn a longboard is the only way to do it [00:14:00] properly. If you're doing it with your ankles or you're using your arms or any of that stuff, you're completely blowing it. It's a very core internal technique that not only moves the board but looks good, and so you wanna be bending with a straight back. You don't want to be hunching over and, and all of that traditional longboarding technique. When you get on a, a short board and I ride boards that, that are all different sizes, including little boards that are basically like a standup bodyboard. And so when you're getting on these tiny little boards that just wanna squirrel around, but you have that core strength technique, all of a sudden you're like hugging the wave and carving these little [00:15:00] boards. In a way that is really proper technique. And then when you get on your normal shortboard, you're able to really draw out your turns and hold your turns because it's, in my opinion, it's a method that you have to ride all different sizes of boards to, to come to. And I think there's a few surfers in the world, they just naturally kind of have that, that technique. You know, like Bud Friis is one. He was born with an amazing style. Um, Joel Parkinson. You know, you've got these guys that no matter what they do on a surfboard, it looks amazing. But I think for a normal surfer to be able to cultivate that, that full rail core strength, um, never a double hitch in a bottom turn. Never a flapping of the upper [00:16:00] body. Just everything you do is, is proper. That riding all boards is gonna enable you to do that on your shortboard. Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, I love that. They say the same thing is true in golf, right? You don't change your swing, you change your club. Same rule applies I reckon percent. Tony Roberts: And when I learned golf, I got lessons from a PGA pro. I was so, so focused on learning all the etiquette. 'cause golf is a gentleman's sport and you don't walk behind someone in their back swing or talk or step on someone's line. And the way that people approach surfing with so much disrespect and disregard for proper etiquette, which infuriates us lifelong surfers. When I approached the sport of golf, I was very, [00:17:00] very adamant about learning it the proper way and not skipping clubs and not using woods until I could hit the irons and really approaching it in the most respectful way as possible, using the proper shoes, not going out there in a t-shirt and sandals, but really respecting the sanctity of this incredible sport. Michael Frampton: , Yeah, I love that. And you're right, a lot nowadays, people certainly do not approach surfing anywhere near with that, , amount of thought. On that note, if there are any beginners listening at the moment, what advice would you have to them in that regards? Tony Roberts: Yes. Well, I think that if you approach surfing with a lot of respect, then that would be. Before even talking about the social [00:18:00] aspect is self-respect, and that is writing a beginner board in beginner waves until you have that board and those waves mastered. And do not try to graduate and skip steps on the ladder because that's not being respectful to yourself and to the expert surfers in the water. They can see that a mile away that's not being respectful to them. So you have no reason using anything but a 10 foot soft top in one foot, slow rolling waves until you have that mastered. And then when you have that mastered, you go to the next step, then the next step, then the next step. And you shouldn't be riding a shortboard in advanced waves for years. Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, I agree. And that's a great way to think of it actually in terms of self-respect, because that is, that, uh, short process you just [00:19:00] described is the best way to learn surfing, because surfing is a long-term sport. It truly is. It's, there's no, there's no shortcuts in, in surfing. It's just one of those things. It's so dynamic, so complex beyond your ability to realize when you're young and it's, every surf is like a compound. It's quite compound interest, isn't it? It just takes so long to gather up. It's not like tennis where you can go and smash a bunch of balls in the same place with the same ball machine or the same coach and get pretty good in six months. That's not surfing. It's, that's great advice. Yeah. It is a certain level of self-respect because if you are going out there and you're getting frustrated 'cause people are dropping in on you or treating you like shit, well it's probably because you've skipped some of those steps and uh, they're just reflecting back to you your own attitude really. Tony Roberts: 100%. [00:20:00] And furthermore, if you don't do that, you'll always surf like a kook. If you learn on a shortboard, you'll always surf like a kook. Every single person out there who just jumps on a, on a shortboard and didn't go through the learning process, they didn't learn how to turn the board with, with core strength, and they start turning it with their ankles and compensating with their upper body. That's why a lot of in third world countries, nobody has a good style because nobody knows this and they all learn on short boards. So if you wanna have a good style, it helps. If you are doing this when you're a little kid and you're learning on a longer board, but if you're an adult and you're learning on a shortboard, you'll definitely be a kook your entire life. Michael Frampton: Mm. Yeah. No, I, I love that. Makes me think of, , Julian Wilson, someone who has not only great style, but pitch a [00:21:00] perfect technique. He has a longboarding background. Yeah. Tony Roberts: Perfect example. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I, I wanna go back to the, we segued a little bit, but I want to go back to the, the art versus sport subject. I. I, I'm fascinated in your answer. I, I kind of expected you to say art because I, I, 'cause I would argue that even when you treat surfing like a sport, I-E-A-W-S-L competition, the surfers that win those competitions when they're actually surfing the wave, I feel like their surfing is very artistic. And there's the, the, of course you've got, uh, tactics and technique to get the right waves and all that sporting stuff, but once they're actually surfing the wave, it's, they're approaching it as an art form Tony Roberts: perhaps. But in my opinion, I see art [00:22:00] in the aspect that you're talking about, in the way that an amazing NBA player dribbles up the court or in the way that a, a Street League skateboarder puts together their run. But. In my opinion is just artistic sport. The sport is the act of riding the wave. And if you are sitting out there and you're just enjoying nature and you're just having a, a spiritual moment, that's artistic. But I don't look at surfing like that. , And it's because of my skateboarding background. I want the opportunity to try something. And in between sets, I might take in the view and acknowledge the fact that it's a magical moment in nature, but in reality, I'm saying [00:23:00] mantras to myself before the next wave comes, so that I will perform as, as well as I can in that short given. Opportunity that I get that's between, you know, 20 and 90 seconds, depending on the spot you're surfing. And I also have somebody filming me. I want to get a good clip. And so some of my mantras, for example, are I'm sitting there between sets waiting for the wave to come and I'll say to myself, crisp takeoff. Crisp takeoff. And I'll say it over and over to myself in my mind, just so that I don't get ahead of myself. I'm not thinking like, oh, I wanna do an air on this wave, or I wanna combo up. No, no, no. Because if I can get a crisp takeoff, which is hard enough, after 52 years of surfing, I still sometimes don't get a [00:24:00] crisp takeoff and I blow the entire wave. But if I do get a crisp takeoff. Almost always magic unfolds down the wave because we have all the instinct, we have all the ability. It's, it's logged into our mind. We have all the practice, but we get in, we get in our own way with having too much crap in our mind when we're paddling into the wave. So if I can get a crisp takeoff, chances are I'm gonna do magic on the wave. And another mantra that I use is simply, and this is usually after I'm, I kick out from a wave and I'm paddling back out and I'm, I'm playing back that wave in my mind, what I did good, what I did bad, and maybe I did something funky, like a spray check or something where if you do a spray check, your board stops because the nose of your, your board is gonna follow your head, right? And if your head is looking where you want the board to go, and your head's following [00:25:00] through and holding the carve all the way to the bottom of the wave. You're gonna do this amazing carve, but sometimes we do this stupid little thing where we like look at our spray and the board just stops and you fucked up the whole wave. And so paddling back out. Sometimes I'll acknowledge that I did that. And then my mantra, no matter what, between the next sets is going to be form. I'm just gonna say to myself over and over, form form. Sometimes I'll compound it with crisp takeoff form and that's all I'm thinking. And then I get into that wave and I'm thinking form, and I know that I'm gonna have my head going the right direction. You know? I don't know if you saw that video that Ger did with AKI recently where Ger had all these backside snaps of aki, like ready to show him. And he said, AKI, he goes, you know why [00:26:00] your backside snap is the best of all time. Aki iss like, no man, I never really thought about it. And he said, it's where your eyes are. He goes, look at this snap. And it's that classic Billabong Jbe ad where he is just like all rail and just perfect form. And he goes, look at your head. He goes, you're looking down the line where you want the board to go. So you're completing your snap, but you're already looking at the next section. So that's able, while you're able to hold the rail, come out into a full bottom turn, keep it on rail and into the next snap. That whole process was on rail. There was no hitch, there was nothing because a's eyes are always on the prize, so I'll say mantras to myself between waves and that is really how I keep the, the performance at its peak. And so that's why on all [00:27:00] aspects, for me, it's always a sport. Never an art. Michael Frampton: Okay. What about music? Do you see any, uh, similarities between surfing and music? Tony Roberts: I see music almost like a tool for the sport, and I'm a musician and I love to play music and I'm always trying to get better at music. Also. I mean, I enjoy the artistic aspect, but it's a process, you know, I'm trying to improve. And it is not a sport, obviously, it is an art music, however, it's a performance art. And I think that in sports, if it's a performance art, it's a sport. Hmm. Tony Roberts: A creative sport, an artistic sport, a [00:28:00] beautiful sport, but a sport nonetheless. Michael Frampton: So dancing. Tony Roberts: Dancing. And I also absolutely love to dance. I'm always trying to get better. I'm always trying to learn new dances. I want, like for example, I've lived in Latin America more than half of my life, and certain dances like cumbia and meringue, they're really easy. You can get really good if you have natural rhythm salsa's, incredibly technical. It's incredibly difficult and I've got 30 plus years, 40 plus years learning to dance salsa and have taken lessons, and it is, salsa is borderline a sport. Hmm. And there's salsa dance competitions, and [00:29:00] I often use the comparison of surfing and dancing salsa because for example, right now the big controversy is should Kelly Slater get the wild card at Trestles? And people are saying, oh, he is older and he doesn't have the, the board speed he used to have. And I have to remind people that surfing is a sport is a lot closer to a salsa dance contest than it is an MMA fight. So board speed and physical strength in an MMA fight is everything but in a salsa dance contest, experience and transitions. Mm-hmm. Tony Roberts: Are gonna win the contest. And it's very rare that some young couple is gonna be able to [00:30:00] step up and take out what is experience. So I feel like dancing is an art, but there are contests and it is judged and there are winners. But just like surfing, you're gonna have one judge who thinks couple B is better than couple A, and that has to do with their background and their biases and maybe even what country they're from. So there's a lot of similarities in sense salsa dance contests and the WSL. Michael Frampton: I think surfing almost bridges the gap between sport and art. I think we're, I like to think of it as an art often because when I think of sport, I think of competitive [00:31:00] sports. But when I think of art, I think of music and being in rhythm and having good timing and technique. So for me personally, at this stage of my life, having good rhythm, timing and technique and just keeping things smooth and appropriate for the wave and the board, I give it more of an art label rather than in, in my twenties I was out there, I wanted to, you know, three to the beach, do the biggest turn. I can sort of pretend I was being judged, I think. So that's where the definition, but I agree. I think they are surfing is both. Tony Roberts: Yeah, absolutely. Like everything that you described that makes it a art for you. I want that in my. My ride and on that video clip and in my next video, it's not just to do it for the expression, the artistic expression. No, it's uh, [00:32:00] it's a concrete thing that I'm trying to accomplish. But surfing, as you said, bridges the gap because for it to look good, it has to look free flowing and not mechanical and artistic as it were. Michael Frampton: . I think if I was as surfers, if we were to snap our fingers and all of a sudden we are standing on our surfboards feet in the right part of the board. Surfboard in the right part of the wave. From that moment on, surfing's actually pretty simple and easy. And that the hardest part of surfing is what happens in between when the surfboard is under your arms and under your feet. How, if Tony Roberts: you have the ability Absolutely. Michael Frampton: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For experienced surfers or any, anyone really. I mean the, the surfer, the, the ratio is what? One minute of [00:33:00] surfing to every hour, if you're lucky in the water. Um, so what we do in between when the surfboard is under our arms and under our feet. What advice would you have to people to manage that part of surfing? Tony Roberts: Oh, man. That's everything because surfing are these fleeting moments and anything in the world. You do in an effort to improve your surfing is gonna pay off huge. And that goes from going to the gym, improving your diet, um, spiritual development, whatever religious faith you might [00:34:00] be., Anything that you do off of the board that is consciously to improve your surfing is gonna pay off huge. And especially in training. And I've heard people say that the best training for surfing is surfing. Bullshit. Surfing will destroy your shoulders. It will destroy your ears. It will destroy all these different parts of your body that the human body wasn't made for this out of balance activity that will destroy you. So yoga is the complete mind body strength, flexibility, discipline, workout that was invented thousands of years ago and perfected [00:35:00] thousands of years ago. And if you adapt that to surfing, it's the best thing you can possibly do for your surfing tomorrow and for your surfing longevity. And that will compensate and balance out your entire body so that your shoulders and these other parts of your body that are getting this unbalanced workout. It puts it all back in balance. Michael Frampton: . Those moments when you are standing on a surfboard and dancing with the ocean, do they inspire you and drive you to, to, to, to practice yoga and eat healthy and get to bed on time, et cetera? Tony Roberts: 100%. Everything. It, it influences every single decision I make in my life and has, since I was a young child. When I was a young [00:36:00] child, I said, how am I gonna be able to surf as good as I can my entire life? And that's been my lifelong mission. And I stopped eating animal products as a child, for example, and started studying Buddhism. Yoga as a child, and that has been a hundred percent for surfing and going through life and relationships. If you're gonna be a good husband or boyfriend, you have to sacrifice surf time. And for me, I figured out pretty long ago that that doesn't work with my lifestyle and my goals. I'm not going to sacrifice and I'm not going to compromise my surfing for a [00:37:00] woman, period. So that means that my relationships only go to a point to where it's not going to interfere with my surfing. And the same goes with my decisions with work, my decisions. With lifestyle, my decisions with diet, my decis decisions with exercise. And the reason why you don't see surfers, I don't see surfers my age doing themselves justice because they've compromised for work, for relationships, and that's fine. That's their priority, but they're not at their full level because of it, none of them. And if you really want to be at your full level, then you need to be a hundred percent committed. There's no [00:38:00] half-assing it. And if you put 20% of that effort into your relationship or you're, you're still drinking and you're still eating hamburgers and smoking cigars and all that kind of stuff, you're not gonna be at your peak level. Which is fine, that's your personal choice, but if you are gonna be at your peak level, it takes a hundred percent commitment. Michael Frampton: . Yeah. And it is, I mentioned the word compound interest. It's interesting to see you improve as you age despite what society tells us should happen as we age. And that your consistency and dedication and commitment to surfing has just seen your relationship to surfing. And with the ocean, just the depth of it increases. And, uh, [00:39:00] yeah, you're still obviously inspired by it greatly, and yeah, it's, is it, is it your most successful long-term relationship? Surfing Tony Roberts: Without a doubt. Also with my daughter who's 19 years old, um, which hasn't been as long as my relationship with surfing, but is I feel like it's a hundred points also. And I was very fortunate in that her mother broke up with me when she was pregnant and was a third world country girl in the middle of nowhere. And I said, well, if you're not gonna be with me, then I'm gonna take the kid, but you're still gonna be the mother. We're gonna drop in and visit you once in a while, but I'm taking the kid. And she signed off on it. So I raised my daughter myself and my concept when she was [00:40:00] an infant was, okay, I'm gonna try to continue living my ideal lifestyle and raise her. And once it's not working out, then I'll compromise. For my daughter, but as it turned out, I never had to compromise and going on my vagabond, following swells, being in different countries at my favorite surf spots during the peak time of the year and focusing everything around that worked out amazing. And my daughter had this incredible international universal education and now is an unbelievably, um, inspirational adult that is now teaching me. So Tony Roberts: [00:41:00] yes, I think that surfing has been my most, my longest relationship and it gets stronger and stronger with age because. I learn as the years go on, how to eliminate the other things in my life that interfere with it. And you mentioned society like this does not work with society at all. And I listen to my friends and other people talk about their relationships and, and what they think is normal. And it does not, it's not conducive to a, a lifestyle where you're committed to surfing if you're in cold water or you're dealing with traffic or you're surfing waves that you don't wanna surf, that are crowded or not surfing because you're at work or any of those things. At one, if, if surfing was your number one priority at one stage of the game, [00:42:00] you wouldn't have sacrificed and you would've made surfing work. And to do that to the fullest. You wanna be in the tropics, you wanna be at a good wave that, that you can continually progress. And if you sacrifice that for work, again, good on you, that's your prerogative. You can live however you want, but you didn't do yourself justice in, in the surfing end of things. And that's what society dictates. And I really don't see any, I've never met anybody who, like myself, is going to go a hundred percent committed to surfing performance in your, in every aspect of your life, in all of your relationships. And guess what? People are gonna respect you more women are gonna want you more when they can't get you. [00:43:00] And your child is gonna have a much more fulfilling education. When you are homeschooling her, you are teaching her on the road and linking her up with professional professors, getting her specialized education, and it goes so many miles beyond what society has dictated for us. And as a surfer, if you're first prior priority is surfing and your own surfing performance, and that is your priority, that leads itself to the best diet, the best religion, the best ethics, the best morals, the best person that you can be contributing to this entire planet because that's what surfing dictates. Michael Frampton: , I love that. I love that. I think it's also to add to that [00:44:00] your daughter's growing up with a parent. Who is modeling what can happen when you do narrow things down and don't try and do everything and focus on something, how good you can get and how you can develop a relationship with something like surfing over time. And it's, I I think that's missing in a lot of, a lot of adults. Tony Roberts: A hundred percent. And it goes back to the word you said, society, you know, and people that they, I can't believe it. I can't believe that they just fall for it. You know, all my friends, we were all the same when we were 13, 14, 15. We all wanted to be in the tropics. Those things that we drew on our notepad, the perfect point break with the hammock, with the dark skinned girls and bikinis running around. I. The, [00:45:00] the cement ramp on the beach, like the doodles. That's life, man. That's freaking life. Michael Frampton: Yeah. There'll be people listening who are thinking, oh my God, how dare you not prioritize your daughter's education? And yet their teenage child is in their bedroom on their smartphone while they're having a glass of wine and watching Netflix. Tony Roberts: Yeah. And my daughter's education, she's 19 years old, and now she's already incredibly successful. Yeah. I mean, I wish I earned the money that she earns and, uh, it's, it's incredible. Very cool. And as Tony Roberts: you said, it was from, she saw an example of somebody who had a focused goal, but that focused goal. There's so many aspects that are integral to go into that diet, [00:46:00] nutrition, lack of stress, spiritual strength, mental and physical flexibility training regimen. That's all she's ever known. And now she's taking it to the way next level. Michael Frampton: Mm. Yeah. No, I like that. That's, I mean, 'cause we we're talking about things that we do anyway. Everyone eats, everyone goes to bed at a certain time. It's just, are you eating for mouth pleasure or are you eating to fuel a better surfing journey? Tony Roberts: That's it, bro. You nailed it. Michael Frampton: , I wanna go back to the time between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet when you're sitting out the back, paddling around waiting for waves. I. How do you manage your focus and everything above, you know, above eye level, your head? How do you manage that?[00:47:00] Tony Roberts: Yeah, I try to stay away from people. I don't look at people rides unless it's somebody that is on a high level, because if I see somebody cook it, it can get into my subconscious because the flow I have in my mind is very, very next level. It's built on mindfulness meditation practice. It's built on shalin, um, tai chi techniques. , So much has gone into that mindset between waves. I can't let any of this peripheral stuff interfere with that. And it's also very [00:48:00] important to be cordial and say hi to people. , But maintain focus, as you said, that's, that's the key word right there. And how I do it is concentrating on my breath, returning to the present moment using mantras, and really visualizing what I'm going to do on the wave in the aspect of keeping an open mind when I drop in. Reading the wave and giving the wave what the wave calls for, like getting in crisp takeoff and then looking down the line and not having anything in my [00:49:00] mind and reacting to those changes of the waves. I got to work a lot with Kelly Slater and filmed him all over the world, and he's the best I've ever seen at reading waves. It's incredible how he can react to what the wave is going to do, and sometimes he'll be out there the whole session and doesn't do any errors and people are like, oh, look at him. He, he can't do errors anymore, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the best ramp of the day comes in and he does the craziest error that anyone's done in months, and it was the only one he, he tried because. He's only gonna do an error if it's a perfect ramp. So he's a great example in having an open mind when you drop in. I don't think he ever thinks I'm gonna do this or I'm gonna do that when he is paddling into the [00:50:00] wave. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I mean, reading the wave is the hardest, the hardest part of surfing and, but all great surfers do it. Well that's something that's, that no matter what style of surfing you want it or you do reading the wave is the foundation of it. Right. And that actually starts before you stand up too. Right. You've gotta choose the right wave. You've gotta sit in the right spot. You've gotta paddle in at the right angle. You gotta time your takeoff. And when you say crisp takeoff, what? What do you mean by crisp? Tony Roberts: A good popup. Good popup. You know, from the hands straight to the feet. In a millisecond crisp, you know, and sometimes that means doing a plank, you know, like hands on the rails, feet on the deck, and letting the wave build and [00:51:00] going down the first sixth of the wave in plank position, and then, then right at the right moment snapping to your feet. It doesn't always mean like getting in early and getting up quick. No. Crisp means that popup, it's perfect. There's no like stumbling to the feet. There's no like need grazing the, the, the deck as as you're standing up. It's just that those hands to the feet in like a millisecond, Michael Frampton: but Correct. But timing's everything, Tony Roberts: the timing, as you said. Michael Frampton: Yeah. 'cause there's, there's a difference between quick and fast.. Yeah. You wanna time it well. So would you say that as you're paddling into, and maybe you're in a plank and you're waiting for the right moment, that whole time you're already surfing the wave, like surfing starts before you stand up?[00:52:00] Tony Roberts: Well, that depends on your definition of surfing Michael Frampton: in terms of your, you're not trying to get the perfect popup in exactly the right spot per se, because maybe you misread the wave a little bit so you're remaining adaptable and just changing the timing of your popup. Maybe you hold back, you know, you're always sort of reading the wave one once it's sort of got you and you're almost in it, you're already kind of setting your line. You're, you're surfing the wave, at least visually. Before you even pop up. So a popup is still a maneuver in surfing. So people often say the bottom turn is the first maneuver. My argument would be, it's actually the popups the first. Tony Roberts: I agree with you. Michael Frampton: So crisp, crisp takeoff. I like that. Yeah. Hmm. [00:53:00] Tell us about your surf trips, Tony Roberts: my personal surf trips or my business? Michael Frampton: Your business. Yes. Tony Roberts: Yes., I do a surf trip package where people can come surf and shoot with me. Um, usually they don't get to surf with me very much because I'm shooting the whole time and have a second photographer or filmer shooting as well. But I have a website, tr surf trips.com, where I offer trips to the best waves at the best time of the year that are my favorite spots in the region of Central America and the Caribbean. After being down here for, [00:54:00] you know, 40 plus years, full-time, I've got completely dialed. Where's good when it's good. And I know all the locals everywhere, and I know the best places to stay. So depending on the size of the group, um, the surfers interest their level. I make these trips for them that include all transport, accommodation, and I film all of their waves. We analyze their waves. If they want coaching, I give them coaching. And at the end of the trip I make a trip movie edit for them as a souvenir, which includes not only their waves, but scenics and on the road experiences. And this has been a way for me to use a [00:55:00] lifetime of filmmaking, professional photography as senior staff photographer for Surfing Magazine, official photographer of the Quicksilver Crossing. I was on the Indie Trader for three years on the boat filming all the best surfers in the world. And that project was, they wanted the culture and the surfing, photography and cinematography, which was why I was the perfect fit for that project because I've been in these cultures immersed, bilingual for so many decades that I was able to capture all that for their project. And so now I'm able to utilize all that experience and give that experience. To any surfer on any level and their friends or [00:56:00] family. And it's incredibly gratifying for me because if I get Kelly Slater's best video clip of the year, he doesn't really care. Quicksilver doesn't really care. They're like, oh, great. Good job. You know, they expect it. But if I get the average surfer's best clip of his life, the look on his face, and it, it is just so gratifying for me. And it's the true essence of being able to give back after a lifetime of being blessed with this incredible lifestyle of traveling the entire planet at all the best waves in the world with all the best surfers and. To now continue to utilize that skillset for everyday surfers is incredible. [00:57:00] Michael Frampton: Oh, very cool. Very cool. And gosh, just the whole, just the experience of knowing when and where to surf from home, whatever home base you've chosen, that's worth, I mean, that's just invaluable for any, any surf trip I've ever been on. The better, the better and more experienced. The, the guide, the surf guiding where, where we're going today, what time we're surfing due to the tides and the swell. I mean that makes or breaks a trip really. And then plus it's all on film and you can get coaching if you want. I mean, that sounds amazing. And where people that wanna find out more in book, where do they go? Tony Roberts: TR surf trips.com. So it's my initials, Tony. Michael Frampton: Okay, great. I'll make sure there's links to that in the show notes. And you also have a YouTube channel. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Tony Roberts: Yes. I have two YouTube channels, real [00:58:00] surf stories and real skate stories. And these are a way to cement legacies of the greats of our sports surfing and skateboarding. That gives an opportunity to do a deep dive into their surfing life and what has made them great and using what they've accomplished to inspire us because each surfer has led these incredible lives that have inspired us in so many ways, and sometimes I. You'll hear the person's name, but you don't really know much about that person. And so I'm always looking for those surfers and those stories that really give you a, a better [00:59:00] perspective of them. And also, as I said, to celebrate their legacy so they don't slide through the cracks. Like one example is I'd heard about this guy, Butch van Dale, and I even knew that he was known as Mr. Pipeline, but I realized I didn't know much about this guy. So I started doing some research and holy crap, what an incredible person and story and character. And I mean for anyone who ever knew that guy, he was the most larger than life figure they'd ever met and ever knew. Yet here we are. Decades later and barely even know who the guy is. So to be able to do a story on that guy and then having his family reach out to me [01:00:00] and so graciously say, wow, thank you so much. Like, this is so important to us that that people know Butch's story. And I just did one with a PT where I was able to sit down with him and wrap out for like three hours. Michael Frampton: Oh wow. Tony Roberts: And the amount of influence and impact that he's had in so many different aspects of surfing. People don't realize that they know PT for one thing or another, but if you put the entire package together, PTs, in my opinion, the most influential impact surfer in the history of our sport. Yeah, the Duke is more impactful in in getting it started. Kelly Slater's more impactful in competition. You have these other people that are more impactful in certain categories, but the amount of categories [01:01:00] and the amount of impact that PT had in all those categories. So my YouTube channel celebrates all these incredible stories and again, gives me an opportunity to utilize a lifetime of filmmaking 'cause that has been my career my entire life. I was director of video at O'Neill. I made the O'Neill Ozone in 1988. In my filmmaking career, I was the first person to use hip hop and rap music, and skate videos and surf videos. I invented the follow footage angle and street skateboarding. I invented the skate style water shot angle, and surfing. So my entire career has been, I. Trying to do something that's never been done before doing it and moving on to the next thing. And now I'm able to utilize all that in my own channel, which is like me having my own movie theater, my own TV station. [01:02:00] I've been a musician my whole life, a dj. I make beats, I make music, I rap, I sing. Now it's like I have my own radio station. I absolutely love the technology more than anything, you know, and it's, it's far reaching and, and every direction worldwide. So it's incredibly inspiring and gratifying. Michael Frampton: Wow. Yeah. , Gosh. Okay, listener. Well, if you're inspired to. Go on a surf trip with Tony and, , have some of this rub off and surf some great waves. Get some great footage. Then you can go to tr surf trips and there'll be a link to that in the show notes. And if you wanna learn and explore Tony's, , YouTube channels, there'll be links to those in the show notes as well. Those who wanna learn more about Tony's, , backstory in history, which he just touched on a few points there. I will put a [01:03:00] link to the interview that David Lee Scales did with you, , back in 2014 in the show notes as well. , Tony Roberts, thank you so much for your time., You are an inspiration, especially to us, , older surfers and what's possible in surfing, longevity and performance. So thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Tony Roberts: Thank you so much, Michael. Absolute pleasure.

Do you walk away from surf sessions frustrated—even when the waves were decent? In this episode, we dive into a powerful mindset shift that helps surfers of all levels enjoy every session—no matter the conditions. Whether you're chasing the dream swell or just trying to improve, managing your expectations could be the key to unlocking more joy and better performance in the water. Learn how unmet expectations quietly sabotage your surfing experience Discover the surprising benefits of aiming for "just one wave" Hear real-world examples of how this mindset frees surfers and boosts performance Hit play now to learn how a small mindset shift can help you catch more waves, feel more stoke, and surf with more ease. Key Points Introduction of the podcast discussing the importance of managing expectations in surfing. Discussion on the emotional impact of unmet expectations when surfing, emphasizing the role of expectations in creating disappointment or elation. Suggestion to lower expectations, particularly around surf conditions, and adopt a mindset of aiming to catch just one wave as a strategy to enhance enjoyment and reduce frustration. Personal anecdote illustrating the effectiveness of managing expectations by aiming to catch just one wave, even in challenging conditions. Observation that setting low expectations, such as catching one wave, leads to greater enjoyment and improved performance in surfing. Encouragement for listeners to try setting their expectation to catch just one wave during their next surf session to experience the benefits of managing expectations.  Outline Managing Expectations in Surfing Michael Frampton, the host of the Surf Mastery Podcast, discusses the importance of managing expectations in surfing. Michael shares personal experiences of arriving at the beach with high expectations based on forecasts, only to find the conditions different than expected. The emotional swings experienced by surfers are often due to unmet expectations rather than the surf conditions themselves. Michael suggests setting low expectations, such as aiming to catch just one wave, to enhance the surfing experience. By lowering expectations, surfers can focus more on the enjoyment of being in the ocean rather than the number of waves caught. Michael recounts a recent surf where, despite challenging conditions, catching just one wave made the experience rewarding. Michael has shared this 'one wave' approach with clients, who have reported increased enjoyment and improved performance in the water. The approach encourages surfers to appreciate the waves they catch more, regardless of the conditions. Michael challenges listeners to try setting their expectation to catch just one wave on their next surf. For those interested in exploring this philosophy further, Michael recommends visiting surfmastery.com to download the e-book, The Philosophy of Surfing. Transcription: Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. The show that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, building wisdom and confidence in the water. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today's episode is all about managing expectations in surfing. Now, we've all had the experience of turning up to the beach and expecting it to be four foot and offshore because that's what the forecast promised. But then when we arrive, it's two foot and onshore. That familiar feeling of disappointment sets in. And of course, the opposite is true. The forecast says it's going to be two foot and onshore, but we decide to go for a surf anyway. And when we get there, it's four foot and clean, and suddenly... you are elated. Now, these emotional swings aren't actually caused by the surf itself. It's caused by your expectations. So it actually makes sense to lower your expectations, especially around conditions. For example, if your expectation is that it's surfable, that's a pretty low bar. Combine that with the mindset of "I'm going to catch one wave," and you've set a low bar that's actually empowering and realistic. Most frustration, anger, and disappointment in the surf comes from these unmet expectations. If you expect to catch ten waves but only get three, you will likely walk away frustrated. Because what happens then is, instead of you focusing on the enjoyment of the experience of being in the ocean and riding three waves, you chose to focus on the seven waves that you didn't get. And lately, I've been practicing this idea. And when I paddle out, my goal is to catch one wave, no matter what the surf is like. A couple of weeks ago, I drove out to the beach for a surf and the only expectation I had was that it was going to be surfable. Had boards in the car ready for any type of condition, as always. And then, when I turned up, it looked like it was pumping. It was well overhead. There were heaps of waves coming through. There were plenty of surfers out, but there were plenty of waves as well. And I sort of felt like I should higher my expectations. But I managed them in the moment and I thought, no, I'm just going to suit up, paddle out, and catch one wave. Go from there. And then, as I was suiting up, I was watching the surf, and I sort of realized, man, people aren't really catching these waves. There's a lot of paddling for waves happening, but no one was really catching them. I wasn't quite sure why when I was suiting up. But when I got out, when I managed to paddle out the back, I realized, man, it's actually really hard to catch these waves. There was a lot of water moving. There was a lot of backwash and secondary swells. So it was really tricky to get into these waves. And most of the surfers out there were pretty frustrated with it. Because I suspect they had seen the surf look like it was pumping, and they paddled out with all these expectations of catching some of these waves. And not many people were. And the ones that were catching were just really bumpy and there wasn't much good quality surfing going on. It took me forty minutes to catch one wave, but that one wave made my day. That's because I'd kept my expectations low. I've been sharing these thoughts with clients recently as well. And a few clients have adopted this "just one wave" approach, and it's taken the pressure off their surfing. They're enjoying surfing more, feeling freer in the water. Ironically, they're actually surfing better as a result. It tends to be what happens. Because, when the example I gave—when the waves, they look good but they aren't, which happens a lot—and it takes you ages to even get one, where you've met your expectation, you actually appreciate that one wave a lot more. But if I had paddled out there and caught that one wave in the first five minutes, then I got another, another thirty-five minutes of time up my sleeve. And if you end up catching two, that's double your expectations. And of course, I've had surfs recently where I've paddled out expecting to catch one and caught twenty. Just makes you enjoy surfing so much more. So, listener, here's the challenge. Next time you go surfing, set your expectation to just catching one wave. Try it. Feel it out. See what happens. If you enjoyed this philosophical approach to surfing and you want to go deeper, head over to surfmastery.com and grab a copy of the e-book The Philosophy of Surfing. It's available now for about the price of a cup of coffee. The link is in the show notes. And as always, thanks for listening. Keep surfing. 119 One Wave Is Enough: The Surfer’s Guide to Managing Expectations For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.