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If you’re looking for the very best examples of B2B marketing content, you’ve come to the right place. Because – after a whirlwind of nominations, shortlisting, group stages, and voting – we’ve whittled them down. Nineteen contenders. Five finalists. And, ultimately, one winner. In a departure from our usual format, this B2BQ&A tries to ask a question posed by our host: “Just what is the best B2B content of all time?” Along the way, we find plenty of B2B inspiration, cast an eye over audiences’ changing content preferences, and hear from expert judges like Andrea Clatworthy, Robyn Collinge, Irene Triendl,  Doug Kessler, Katie Colbourne, and Rishi Dastidar… as well as our co-host for this episode, Rockee.io founder (and recently revealed sausage enthusiast) Matt Laybourn. After about 80 episodes, it’s also our final podcast hosted by Radix Creative Director David McGuire, who’s leaving us to embark on a new adventure. (There’s plenty more B2BQ&A to come, though, courtesy of our new-look hosting team. Wait and see!) You’ll find a full transcript of this episode at the end of this post… just keep scrolling. So what can we learn from the best 19 examples of B2B content? You can find the full list of nominees right here. And, reviewing the vote, here’s what we discovered: 1. In the end, great content wins Yes, AI-driven filler is making search engine results a bit unreliable lately. But when audiences do find content with true value, they’re all the more likely to appreciate it. As Matt says: “As much as there’s a there’s a shift in the landscape with Google search results, people will find and gravitate towards really good content… like: I found this awesome thing, and I want to share it with you.” 2. All content needs to earn the audience’s time Judging the podcast category, Irene says: “There is actually something quite arrogant in assuming people are going to want to listen to you and your guests talk on and on for an hour, or however long the podcast is. So if you do that, I think you owe it to your audience to have something interesting to say and to be really well prepared. And that you’re offering them something that they can’t get elsewhere faster or better. And this is ultimately true for all content, really. People’s time is precious, and you can’t take it for granted that they are going to give it to you.” Gulp. We’re doing our best, Irene. Honest. 3. Authenticity wins loyalty The high number of podcasts among the nominees is testament to the rise of community marketing, and the power of getting people to identify with your content. Matt puts this down to authenticity, saying: “People want to hear a natural conversation, not someone kind of regurgitating, I don’t know, frameworks or the best practice. It’s got to be an authentic thing.” 4. A little wit can even the odds No spoilers, but among famous players like Adobe Marketing Cloud, GE, and Volvo Trucks, smaller names can really hold their own – all they need is a fresh, witty way to express themselves. Whether it’s a financial blog about Chicken McNuggets, a rhyming explainer video, or – yes – a dating app for cows, content is a realm where a bright idea can carry the day. Speaking about Iron Mountain’s entry, Rishi says: “Wit and whimsy are rarely used tools in this world. On this evidence, one wonders why.” Want to skip to the exciting bits? Here’s where you can find them… 4:22 – Best B2B Blog Post 8:52 – Best B2B Podcast 13:20 – Best B2B Long-Form Content 17:20 – Best B2B Video Ads 20:25 – Best Wildcard Content 24:21 – Grand Final: The Best B2B Content of All Time Next time, if could be your question we’re answering If you have a question about B2B content writing, we absolutely want to hear it. Send us a voice memo at podcast@radix-communications.com. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share (or if you’d just like to say hello to the podcast’s new hosts), you can connect with us on LinkedIn and Twitter: @radixcom. How to listen:  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As”). Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts. Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player. Credits and thanks Thanks, Matt Laybourn, for judging and co-hosting so expertly. Indeed, we’re incredibly grateful to all our judges: Andrea Clatworthy, Robyn Collinge, Doug Kessler, Irene Triendl, Maureen Blandford, Jason Miller, Joel Harrison, Katie Colbourne, and Rishi Dastidar. Thanks also to everyone who nominated, and everyone who voted. Without you, none of this happens. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash. Finally, David has a massive list of goodbye-and-thanks: everyone he’s interviewed or co-hosted with, everyone who’s listened, and everyone who’s sent us a copywriting pro-tip. Thanks to Gareth at Bang and Smash for sound editing heroics, and Hannah Beech for super podcast branding. And especially thanks to Emily King and Fiona Campbell-Howes for birthing this podcast and passing it on. Thank you. OK. You know we promised you that transcript…? Transcript: B2BQ&A 113 – What is the best B2B content of all time? David McGuire: What is the best example of B2B content, ever? Matt Laybourn: That’s a great question. Let’s ask the very best 10 B2B judges that we can find – and the voting public – to find out. David: Hello, Listener, and welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 113. And as this year marks the 10th anniversary of our podcast, we’re taking the very unusual step of trying to answer a question from me: “Just what is the best bit of B2B content, ever?” To help me I’m joined by one of the judges from our expert panel. From rockee.io and the Sausage Factory podcast. It’s Matt Laybourn. Matt, hi! Welcome. Matt: Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be here. David: The Sausage Factory, I’ve got to ask you about that. That’s a new podcast, right? Love the name. Are you just talking about sausages a lot? Matt: (Laughs) Yeah, so the reason behind it being called the Sausage Factory is because our perception – at least me and my co-host Mark Willis – our perception is we’re in a cycle of endlessly making content at the moment and not worrying about the quality of it. You know, the rise of AI and all of that type of stuff. So things have become a bit of a sausage factory. But the interesting side addition that I didn’t expect for this, is we now have this weird Venn Diagram of B2B marketers and sausage enthusiasts. And it’s kind of this little interesting crossover David: That Venn diagram is a circle? Matt: Yeah, you’d think so, but there’s been some discerning comments about certain types of sausages, which, again, is not something we expected to talk about on the pod. David: Well, you’re very well qualified then if it’s a podcast about content that stands out from the run-of-the-mill because that’s what we’re trying to get to the bottom of today. Before we go any further, I should probably introduce myself, shouldn’t I? My name’s David McGuire. I’m Creative Director at Radix Communications, which is the B2B tech writing agency. And the reason I get to take the self-indulgent step of posing my own question for this B2BQ&A is that after eight years, this is my last time in the host’s chair of this podcast. Don’t worry, I’m handing over to a fabulous rotating roster of hosts: George, Katy, Steve, and if you’re very lucky, Kieran. And we have many more brilliant episodes in the pipeline for you. So don’t worry, there is more B2BQ&A to come, just not with me. So if you do have any comments or suggestions, or you’d just like to welcome the new hosts, you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter. Announcer: @radixcom. David: And if you want the show to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email. Announcer: podcast@radix-communications.com. David: Right. That’s enough prevarication. Let’s get on with the serious business of finding the best B2B content of all time. First, I should start by saying thank you to everybody who put forward their favorite examples of B2B content. We took all of your nominations, and we put them in front of a brilliant panel of 10 B2B marketing experts, as well as senior Radix writers, who helped us to create five category shortlists: best blog, podcast, long-form content, video ad, and a wildcard category for entries that kind of defied description. We had a public vote, and the winner of each category went forward to the Grand Final, the voting for which closed just a few minutes ago. And in a few moments, we’ll reveal who won. Matt, are you ready? Matt: I am very ready. I’m very excited. Let’s do this. David: You sure? Matt: Yeah. Come on let’s go. David: Okay, let’s go. Voiceover: Best B2B Blog Post. David: Blogs are such a staple of B2B content marketing, it’s no surprise we’ve got lots of strong contenders here. So thanks to Andrea Clatworthy at Fujitsu and Robyn Collinge of WeTransfer who helped our Head of Copy, Matt, and Senior Copywriter George compile the shortlist. Now, they very particularly enjoyed Beam’s How to Write a B2B Blog Intro that isn’t Boring AF and Hank Barnes of Gartner’s The Tyranny of More, but ultimately the four they selected were as follows: Andy Raskin’s The Greatest Sales Deck I’ve Ever Seen, Assure Hedge’s The Chicken McNuggets’ secret ingredient is not what you think…, Tom Roach on The Wrong and the Short of It, and Velocity Partners’ A Stakeholder Through the Heart. So Matt, having been writing blogs for a while it feels to me like they’ve changed in nature a lot over the last few years in B2B; that they’ve become more of a mainstay of the content strategy where once they might have been SEO filler, I guess. Is that something that you kind of recognise? Why do you think it might be? Matt: Yes, it’s an interesting mix at the moment, because you know, things like programmatic AI are starting to kind of make the pendulum swing the other way a little bit again, because we’re getting this kind of overpopulation of essentially facts-based articles. They don’t have editorial quality to them, they’re just telling the reader what they probably were looking for, for that search term. And it’s funny enough was talking about this earlier, but some of that is fine. Some of that is fine, someone wants a very simple answer to a simple question. But then you start to lose the quality of, you know, where does the editorial come in, where does the tone of voice the brand, the real kind of in-depth, exciting solution-based content to those terms really start to come in. So, blogs are going through a bit of a whirlwind. And I think it’s harder for brands at the moment, just because of the way Google is trying to figure out how to deal with essentially an influx of content. The barrier to entry to make content could not be lower at the moment, so how do we discern the difference between good, bad and ugly, I guess, at the moment. And Google doesn’t quite know that yet, because I’ve seen so many marketers going, “I just see bad content on search result pages at the moment.” The battle to be relevant and to be interesting is getting harder and harder. So I don’t know – I’m kind of thinking the pendulum swinging around a little bit and doesn’t quite know where to land at the moment. David: I think, until Google can sort that out, it might be social and other places, that really will help to reward the best blog content, I suppose. The more there is of this kind of wide base of low-quality content, the more that the real imagination has to stand out. And I think that’s something that we’ve seen in the winner – with all of these blog posts – but in particular, in the winner, which is Assure Hedge – I think they’re now Alt 21 – which is The Chicken McNuggets secret ingredient is not what you think… which was voted the best B2B content of 2021 by our listeners, and it’s won again here. Andrea Clatworthy said, “Fab this! Quite long, but a great story, which I enjoyed reading.” And Robyn Collinge agreed. She said, “I bloody love a metaphor to help me understand complex things.” And it’s super to see a blog post that’s built around the kind of storytelling that AI will never be able to do. And people actually recognising the value of that Matt: A hundred percent. And I think that’s the interesting thing. As much as there’s a bit of a shift in the landscape with Google search results and things like that, people will find and gravitate towards really good content. So social groups, Slack groups, internal sharing groups, and things like that as well, they’ll be like, “I found this awesome thing, and I want to share it with you.” So the best will still rise above it. We’ve just got a bit of a slight traffic issue in the short term. But normal service will be resumed I’m sure, don’t worry. David: So congratulations to you, Assure Hedge, the best B2B blog of all time. Announcer: Best B2B Podcast. David: Loads of nominations we got here, which is a bit of a surprise given that when you talk about B2B content, podcasts might not be the first thing you think of. But I guess it is all about getting that community who’ll identify with your content, stick up for it, and end up nominating it for things. Matt, you’re a podcaster yourself and you judged this category, along with Doug Kessler of Velocity Partners and Irene Triendl of Say What? So, what did you think? Matt: It was a really interesting category. The thing that I was listening out for… so I kind of did my own research recently to get my own pod up and running and go, “What are the things I really like in a podcast?” And one word always comes up, and it’s authenticity. So a lot of people listen to podcasts on the go on the move – trains, buses, whatever it may be – and they want to hear something that is kind of a natural conversation, not someone kind of regurgitating, I don’t know, frameworks or the best practice. It’s got to be an authentic thing between two or three people. And that’s what I think the very best in this category do for us. David: Irene also sent us some audio and she found this category pretty tough to judge, I think. Irene: I have to say, this has been a lot harder than I thought; it’s a tough category. I think for me, the key thing is, there is actually something quite arrogant in assuming that people are going to want to listen to you and your guests talk on and on for an hour, or however long the podcast is. So if you do that, I think you do owe it to your audience to have something interesting to say and to be really well prepared. And that you’re offering them something that they can’t get elsewhere, or can’t get elsewhere faster or better. And this is ultimately true for all content, really. People’s time is precious, and you can’t take it for granted that they are going to give it to you. David: Out of a long list, there were quite a few that caught the judges’ eye. I think that between you, you commended Agencyphonics by Cactus, Everyone Hates Marketers by Louis Grenier, Uncensored CMO by Jon Evans. And I know Doug Kessler was particularly a fan of the Electronic Propaganda Society by Mathew Sweezey. But ultimately, it came down to: Adobe’s Audio White Papers for Marketing, voiced by Malcolm *actual* McDowell, Gasp’s Call to Action, Help Scout with Jay Acunzo’s Against the Grain (which is kind of a video program as well, but that’s fine), and Peep Laja’s How to Win. And by an absolute landslide, Call to Action took it. So congratulations to Gasp. That was nominated by Fractional CMO, Graham Fraser, and Doug said… Doug Kessler: Fun and sweary and it’s got a fun voice to it. Good guests list. They package it up well as a show with segments and everything – I like that. David: Matt, this one stood out for you as well, didn’t it? Matt: Yeah, it really did. I’m a massive Rolling Stones fan. So the fact that he had “I can’t get no call to action” as a theme tune… Well, that’s not the sole reason, obviously but okay, I’m interested from the very first 30 seconds, you’ve got me. But no, again, it was everything I love about a podcast where it’s just authentic good conversation. So I listened to a really amazing one the other week with Chris Paouros. And it was just it really got to me. Really powerful conversation, learning more about the person behind the marketer as well. So I loved how that transcended just kind of the normal marketing conversation. So a really deserved winner. David: Yeah, I’m glad you called that one out because, Chris Paouros, among other things, runs Proud Lilywhites. And as Spurs fan myself, and someone who you know LGBT Spurs fans are among my very favorite people in the world. You know, always deeply grateful for what Chris does. So to actually hear her interviewed was super. So brilliant, well done to Gasp and the Call to Action podcast, you are officially the best B2B podcast of all time. Announcer: Best Long-Form B2B Content. David: So classically, when you think of B2B content, it’s long-form stuff that often you’ll think about. But this category had, in the end, no white papers and no ebooks on the shortlist. (Thanks to Maureen Blandford, founder of Serendipitus, and Jason Miller of Tyk, for helping Katy Eddy compile this shortlist for us.) Having said that, obviously, we had good examples, but I think there were fewer than they were expecting. Do you think there might be a reason why we might, relatively speaking, see fewer examples in the long-form category? Matt: I think it’s just so much harder to maintain people’s attention, is the really simple answer. We’re in an environment now where you have seconds to get someone’s attention. So much emphasis is on messaging and short-form at the moment. So for something long-form, that someone could sit there for more than 15 minutes, if I’m honest, to stand out, all of a sudden this is a very challenging category. And the best really have to have something quite incredible to keep people hooked. David: I think you’re right. And often the thing is that because they’re about something very specific as well, they might not ever reach a very wide audience. I think Andrea Clatworthy made the point that sometimes the best content is so super targeted, it’s not even necessarily in the public domain. You know, a lot of these things will be gated. So it’s probably quite understandable that we had relatively few to choose from. But we did have some good nominees, and the judges particularly liked After the Virus by Cognizant, but ultimately the three that they picked and agreed on, were: Ahrefs’ The Beginner’s Guide to SEO, Maxon Motor, their product catalogue, and Velocity Partners’ The search for meaning in B2B marketing. Now the vote in this category was really close; there were two votes between first and third place. The winner was Ahrefs and Matt, this was actually your nomination wasn’t it? Matt: Have I tipped the balance with my vote here? Yeah, it’s rationale behind it is going back to this point: it’s got to be something pretty incredible to keep you hooked. And this is a piece of content I go back to time and time again as my source of authority and credibility because it’s just an incredibly in-depth, clever, well-written, well-structured guide on how to set up fundamentals in SEO. And it sounds like a boring subject, but so many people must have to go back to this and go, “Okay now I’m gonna jump to this chapter. I’m gonna go to that chapter.” And I’m kind of a weird sucker for content UX as well. And the way they just have everything displayed perfect on the page, they have social proof, excellent categorisation blending in with videos infographics, imagery, and really good, high-quality, authoritative, written content. It’s an absolute treat. David: And Katy, our Senior Copywriter here agreed with you, she said, “This huge guide could have been overwhelming, but mercifully, it’s not. The writing’s really accessible but without skimping on detail. It’s easy to navigate. And it’s visually clean with cute icons and useful diagrams. For Ahrefs, this format is easy to revisit and update when best practice inevitably changes. And it’s simple for readers to revisit the relevant bits whenever they want a refresher.” Just as you’ve done. So I think you’re both well agreed on that. So congratulations to Ahrefs, your Beginner’s Guide to SEO is officially the best long-form B2B content of all time. Announcer: Best B2B Video Ads. David: Okay. I mean, this is always the eye-catching one because when you think of like, when B2B gets creative, when it gets humorous, when it sparks emotion – it’s often short videos that we’re talking about. So we’re really grateful to Joel Harrison, Editor-in-Chief of B2B Marketing, and Basware’s Katie Colbourne for helping our Head of Development, Kieran compile the shortlist. The judges enjoyed Lenovo’s Metal Review video, but with some conflict over whether that was really B2B, the shortlist came down to: Adobe Marketing Cloud’s Click, Baby Click, GE’s Datalandia – Devamping, Iron Mountain with Iron Mountain Protects Your Backup Tapes, and The Epic Split by Volvo Trucks. This was the closest category; we actually had a tie in the public vote. So we went back to the judges and found that only one had placed in all three of their top three favorites. And that is Iron Mountain. It was originally nominated by Rishi Dastidar who said, “How do you make *checks notes* storing backup magnetic tapes interesting? Why not try some rhymes and a charming animation style? Wit and whimsy are rarely used tools in this world. On this evidence one wonders why.” And among the judges, Katie Colbourne agreed she said, “This engaged me quite a bit as it used real-life examples of things we all do and are guilty of. So it had that emotive and connection element. It was also fast-paced, and it was funny from the off.” What did you think of it, Matt? Matt: Yeah, I completely agree with those comments. Super engaging. I was kind of wondering what this is at the beginning because you’re like, “Is this gonna be another boring B2B video, please don’t be boring.” And then you’re like, “Okay, this is funny. This is interesting. This is engaging.” But it focused on the problem. It was like, here’s a very clear problem and they’ve gone about it in a really creative way and given it different environments, and then taken it in towards a solution, and it’s absolutely perfect for short-form content, did everything you wanted it to do. David: It shows that with a bit of thought and a bit of creativity, you can really cut through because there are some big hitters in this category, right? The Epic Split, which is many people’s immediate thing that they think about as great B2B content came third in this category, you know. And so you compete with big hitters like Volvo Trucks or you know Adobe Marketing Cloud who always – and GE – who always do these funny emotional videos, just shows with a bit of thought and a good script, you can really compete on that playing field and stand out. So, well done Iron Mountain, yours is the best B2B video ad of all time. Announcer: Best Wildcard Content. David: Now, some of the nominees didn’t fit neatly into any category. So we created this extra one. Thanks to Rishi Dastidar, who’s Senior Writer at venturethree – and also a darn fine poet – for helping our senior copywriter Steve get to the bottom of this shortlist. So ultimately, they chose: Drawbotics’ Your Favorite TV Shows Brought to Life With Amazing 3D Floor Plans, Gartner Magic Quadrant – yes, all of it, Hectare Agritech and Tudder, and Turtl’s Kill the PDF campaign. Matt, Rockee helps marketers to get feedback and understand what people really enjoy about their content. So, with access to that information, do you see new formats, new approaches? If we run this in five or 10 years’ time again, might there be completely different kinds of B2B content? What do you think the future might hold? Matt: Yeah, it’s really interesting, because we started to get feedback we just simply weren’t expecting, where people are asking for slightly different formats of where things work. So for example, you posted for the digital webinar, or something like that. It’s quite interesting, because people go, “This is too long, I want to see shorter versions of it.” So immediately, you’re getting data there to go, “Look, I can take this into maybe four or five snippets, I can put it into social short form. I can even take it to YouTube short form – I can make something really interesting and engaging when I have a long-form piece of content.” So there’s a huge evolution happening. And that’s what the audience is asking for. It’s related to something they consume in a snappier format or that goes to the precise problem that they’re trying to solve. So that’s something we’re seeing straight away from Rockee at the moment is there’s a kind of a move away from longer form. So that’s something that’s certainly emerging. And the other one is around creators as well, that that goes back to that authenticity piece, less around AI at the moment, but people who can, you know, rise up as a profile for their brand. An example is Todd Clouser, who used to be at Refine Labs and is now at lavender.ai. He does an incredible job of just making short comic videos that are related to the problem and the solution of the brand he works for. So yeah, interesting trends emerging. I think it might gravitate towards those creative formats in the next couple of years, for sure. David: So more profile for kind of, you know, individual personalities, and potentially more atomisation of bigger content pieces. Matt: Yeah, a hundred percent. We’re moving to snack form type of stuff and we’re on a diet from long form. And yeah, that’s certainly what the audience is asking for. But it’s very competitive; using feedback is a great way of getting an insight as to which are the most juicy bits that you can focus on. David: So we took the vote for our wildcard content, and Hectare Agritech and Tudder, which, if you don’t know, is their dating app for cows. Again, it was voted the Best Content of 2019. It ran away with this category once again. And Rishi Dastidar sent some audio to explain why he thought it was well-deserved. Rishi Dastidar: It’s a very simple idea. The idea of a dating app for animals: cattle and sheep. I love the wit here. It’s a very simple idea, but it’s been executed really well. And that cross-pollination just really does cut through and raises a smile. David: So well done, Hectare Agritech. Tudder is the best, I guess, B2B dating app of all time? Announcer: The Grand Final. David: So this brings us to the moment of truth. We have our five finalists: Assure Hedge: the Chicken McNuggets blog, Gasp with their Call to Action podcast, Ahrefs with their SEO guide, Iron Mountain with their hilarious video, and Tudder, the dating app for cows. Matt, are you ready to find out what is officially the best B2B content of all time? Matt: Come on, I can’t wait any longer The suspense is killing me. Let’s do it. David: Okay. In third place… we have Hectare Agritech with Tudder. In second place… it’s Assure Hedge with The Chicken McNuggets secret ingredient is not what you think. In first place… it’s Gasp with the Call to Action podcast. I think a few years ago you would never have thought that the best B2B content of all time would be a podcast, would you? Matt: Definitely not. I don’t think people thought podcasts would ever pick up and no one would listen to a B2B podcast. But love this, I love this winner, thoroughly deserved. It’s real content, real people doing real things. David: What is it you love about it? Matt: I’m gonna say authenticity again. It’s real people, you know, having a good conversation, finding out about their experience, how they got to where they are, their expertise, their knowledge, beautifully framed, entertaining. Entertaining is probably another key word; I’d happily listen to it anywhere I go. So, yeah, incredible winner. David: I mean, obviously, there’s an element to it of: “It’s a public vote, you know.” And with any competition like this, where it’s open, of course, it’s a subjective choice. And, of course, there’s an element of who will get people to vote for you. But, for me, that’s kind of why podcasts are so good. It’s about getting that community that identify with you. And so the fact that they’ve won, shows the strength of their community, and it shows it’s working, right? Matt: Yeah. 100%. And that’s what they’re kind of designed for. There are little subsections of all of our various parts of B2B marketing in different markets, and you want to meet up with fellow people who have the same opinions and kind of the same, you know, ambitions and thoughts and things like that. It’s great to see those communities come together, you know, loyal fan base and like good authoritative content. It’s a beautiful mix. David: Yeah, I think the reason that we have the judges involved in this process, to do the shortlisting, is ultimately, the winner is always going to be subjective; everyone’s going to have a different view. But all of our five finalists – indeed, all of the 19 shortlisted examples – are worthy winners, and hopefully, fairly inspiring examples of good B2B content. And that, ultimately, is what this question was about. It was about you know, finding examples, finding ideas, finding some inspiration. So hopefully, we’ve managed that. Well done, Gasp. Well done, Giles Edwards. Well done, Call to Action. So, there you have it, the best B2B content of all time. Thank you to everybody who nominated. Thank you to everybody who voted. Thank you to all our judges. And, of course, thank you, Matt, for joining us to analyse it and go through these with us. I hope it’s been interesting. Matt: It’s been incredible. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on. David: And Matt, if people want to hear more from you, or hear the Sausage Factory – experience the sausage – where would they find that? Matt: So you can find us on any good publishing channel. We’re on Spotify, we’re on Apple podcasts. Or you can visit rockee.io. And we’re very much trying to dissect what does great content look like in modern B2B, over all of those formats. So yeah, come and have a look. David: Through the medium of tasty sausage snacks, presumably? Matt: Through sausage-based analogies and jokes. Yes. David: B2BQ&A will be back soon, albeit without me. I’d like to thank everyone who’s co-hosted over the years, everyone who’s let me badger them with impertinent questions, everyone who’s sent us questions of their own or copywriting pro tips. I’d especially like to thank Emily King and Fiona Campbell-Howes for starting this fabulous podcast. And most of all, I’d like to thank you listener for joining me this past 80 or so episodes. Until next time, make great content. David and Matt: Goodbye! The post B2BQ&A 113: What’s the best B2B content EVER? appeared first on Radix.

As Greek philosopher Heraclitus pointed out, change is the only constant. So, how can B2B marketers ensure their content stays up-to-date and relevant to customers when technology and markets never stand still? We’ll find out in this episode of B2BQ&A, where we answer a question posed by Kate Terry, Head of Demand Generation at Unily. Specifically, Kate asked: “How do you keep up with content when your products and business keep evolving into new markets?” To tackle Kate’s question, we welcome to the podcast two experts with a wealth of experience in content marketing. Our special interview guest is Jason Miller, Head of Brand and Content at Tyk, and our guest co-host is Diane Wiredu, B2B messaging strategist and founder of Lion Words. Along with Radix’s George Reith, our guests explore how your messaging can stay consistent when everything else is changing. In this episode, you’ll also learn an essential copywriting pro tip from Ettie Bailey-King, founder of Fighting Talk Communications and consultant for inclusive and accessible content. You’ll find a full transcript of this episode at the end of this post. Need consistency in your B2B content? Here are 5 key takeaways from the podcast: 1. Have a core piece of evergreen content Jason suggests having a core of 80% of content; what he calls “big rock content”. According to Jason, “Your core content is based around the subject area you want to own and should answer the number one question in your customers’ minds. The remaining 20% of little rock content you can set aside for experimentation to try out ideas.” 2. Treat your content like a best-selling book There’s a reason our most trusted and respected textbooks remain popular for years: they’re updated so they stay relevant through change. Jason’s tip is to treat your core content the same way, by giving it a fresh coat of paint every now and again. But Jason doesn’t think we need to reinvent the wheel. Simplify, get back to basics, answer questions, and, above all, be helpful. 3. Don’t give up if content doesn’t perform If you trust the reasons for creating a piece of content, you should give it every opportunity to work. For Jason’s team, that could mean tweaking the format, the targeting, or the approach. “Every piece of content that me or my team has ever created at any org has always been created for a purpose rooted in data… So if we put it out there, and it doesn’t perform, we don’t give up.” 4. Change brings a chance for genuine thought leadership “Every time there’s a change… there’s an opportunity to answer the biggest questions,” says Jason. “As soon as we see that… we go after the big questions with some blog and video content. But then we go to our leadership and we say, ‘What does this mean?’” 5. Curate a group of trusted advisors Jason also recommends leaning on trusted advisors for guidance during times of change. But he’s always cautious when new voices come on the scene. “There’s no shortage of experts and opinions out there,” he says. “It’s how you curate them, and how you build trust or trust those folks to keep you in a good place.” Want some further reading? Here are the sources Jason mentioned: Two classic guidebooks – and great examples of how to create evergreen content – Jason recommends are David Meerman Scott’s The New Rules of Marketing and PR and Ann Handley’s Everybody Writes. As well as Ann Handley, Jason’s trusted advisors are Jay Acunzo and Doug Kessler (who we invited onto this podcast in 2021). You can learn more about Mark Schaefer’s theory of content shock here. Here’s what you can expect in this episode… 3:46 – George poses Kate Terry’s question to Jason Miller. 17:24 – Co-host Diane Wiredu shares her thoughts on Jason’s insights. 21:40 – Diane and George discuss the changes that generative AI could bring. 28:13 – Ettie Bailey-King shares her copywriting pro tip. Got a question? We’ll find the answer. To get your burning B2B content questions answered, just send us a voice memo at podcast@radix-communications.com. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can connect with us on LinkedIn and Twitter: @radixcom. How to listen:  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As”). Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts. Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player. Credits We’d like to thank Jason Miller, for sharing so much content wisdom. Cheers to Kate Terry for such a thought provoking question. Special mention goes to Ettie Bailey-King for sharing a great copywriting pro tip. And heartfelt gratitude to Diane Wiredu – our excellent guest co-host. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash. Transcript: B2BQ&A 112 – How to keep on top of your B2B content when your product keeps changing? Kate Terry: How do you keep up with content when your product and business keep evolving into new markets? Diane Wiredu: That’s a great question. Let’s ask Jason Miller from Tyk. George Reith: Hello, listener, and welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is Episode 112. Diane: Change is something of a constant in the world of B2B. But when your organisation, its products, and even the entire industry you work in, are constantly changing, how do you make sure your content stays up-to-date and relevant? Well, in a few moments, content marketing guru Jason Miller will answer that very question, posed by Kate Terry from Unily. Plus, we’ll hear a copywriting pro tip from Ettie Bailey-King. George: But first, we should introduce ourselves. It’s been a long time since I hosted the Radix podcast. But if you’re a longtime listener, you might remember my dulcet tones. I’m George Reith, Senior Copywriter at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency. And today I’m delighted to be joined by Diane Wiredu founder and messaging strategist at Lion Words. Diane, thank you so much for joining us. Diane: Thank you for having me, I’m excited to help you host. George: Oh, it’s such a pleasure. And Diane, I hope you don’t mind, but I had a quick look at your LinkedIn and I saw that you’ve done all sorts of things over the years from messaging strategy to translation and everything in between. How do you manage it all? Diane: There’s been an evolution over the years; many pivots and many sorts of changes in positioning. But, right now I am exclusively focussed on messaging strategy for B2B and B2B Tech – and SaaS in particular. But, my journey has been quite a linear one, I think. My background was in translation and languages. And I moved into copywriting and the world of copywriting. And from there kind of into the more strategic side of how you actually build a kind of messaging framework that can inform your copy and content. George: It’s great to hear actually about your own transformation. Considering the theme of today’s episode is very much about change, it sounds like you’ve had a fair few of your own over your career. So, I think you’re well-placed to co-host this one. Diane: I think so too, yeah. George: Cool. So, before we get into the meat of it and start answering this episode’s question… Diane, would you mind telling the listener how they can get in touch with the show? Diane: Sure thing. Listener, if you have any comments or suggestions you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter. Voiceover: @radixcom. Diane: Or, if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email. Voiceover: podcast@radix-communications.com. George: Thanks very much. Diane: Now it’s time for our B2BQ&A for this episode. It comes from Unily’s Head of Demand Generation, Kate Terry. Kate Terry: How do you keep up with content when your product and business keep evolving into new markets? George: Thanks for your question, Kate. It’s a thought that’s probably immensely common across the B2B marketing world – we have new technologies constantly coming into play and threatening to change the game. But it’s not just external changes to watch out for. Even changes a company makes to its own products and messaging can risk existing content falling out of vogue very quickly. So, how do you keep ahead of change and ensure your marketing content stays relevant? To find out, I spoke with Jason Miller – the head of brand and content at Tyk. If you’ve not come across Tyk before, they offer a full lifecycle API management gateway. So that means the things that businesses use to connect one thing to another. And when you’ve got lots of connections going on, loads of different components keep changing, they have to keep changing, too. So, I sat down with him and asked how he’s handled industry and technology changes across his illustrious career in B2B marketing. And I asked him Kate’s question directly, “How do you keep up with content and keep it clear, sharp and consistent when your product and business keep changing?” Jason Miller: So, you know, it’s a great question. I think I would go back to say, “Everything changed, but nothing changed.” Right? So, even from my days at Marketo, or LinkedIn, or Microsoft, the core fundamentals of the content strategy that I believed in, and that I believe still works to this day, are still there. You have your core content which is answering the number one question in a customer and prospect’s minds. And, you know, it’s based around what sort of conversation you want to own. That’s sort of what we call the big rock content. And that big rock content’s a stake in the ground – what conversations do you want to own? So that’s your core, that’s always-on stuff, right? I’d say that’s about 75–80% of your content strategy. Then that 20% is where we put in sort of this intelligent risk content, which is the blog stuff, video stuff. And that’s based on not only, you know, extrapolating, slicing and dicing the big rock content, keeping that always-on strategy. But it’s also carving out some space for experimentation and going after new conversations. Or finding if there’s an appetite for a direction that you want to take that conversation. So yeah, when you have that big rock, and you have the blog, and you have those two pieces moving, I think that’s core and critical to any piece, any content strategy. And anyone who says anything different? You know, you have to dive into how much can you repurpose and how much value can you extract out of every piece of content? That’s number one. Number two: is that piece of content necessary? Number three: how do you activate that content effectively, outside of just checking boxes and pushing it out, and moving on to the next thing? So, I think it doesn’t matter if your business is changing, or the conversation’s shifting, or if the products evolving, which it obviously should be. It’s a matter of: do you have a core piece of evergreen content that you can evolve with it, that you can put a fresh coat of paint on? And you treat it like a best-selling book. I mean, you look at something like a classic like The New Rules of PR and Marketing by the great David Meerman Scott, or Ann Handley’s Everybody Writes. These are classic books, essential books, and each year they do a new version of it. Why can’t you just think of your content like that? So, I’d say that’s worked for the past 10 years, and it continues to work. The channels, the activation strategies aren’t going to change. But again, I don’t think we need to spend too much time trying to reinvent the wheel. Simplify, get back to basics, answer questions, be helpful, and put in those intelligent risks. George: Just wondering if someone’s listening to that and thinking, “Well, how do I get back to basics? How do I discover like, what is my big rock for my brand?” How’s the best way to go about that? Jason: There’s no question about what topics we should be creating for our audiences. All the data is out there; from the various numbers of free and paid tools, you can find out within a second, right? So, that’s the data; that approach of what people are searching on. There’s also the element of what are they not searching on, that value that you provide, that you can put an answer to, or put something out there, or an innovative solution, right? So, there’s a balance between intent search data, which is core and which should always be on. You should always be looking at and adjusting accordingly. Obviously, that’s going to shift around AI and ChatGPT, and wherever Google goes with this. But at the end of the day, it’s still pulling from the best of the best of authoritative content. And that’s what we should be trying to address with the best content we can, written with opinions and fact-checked and researched and providing some sort of direction instead of just answering the question. But, again, it’s as simple as: “What’s the number one question that someone would type into a search engine or type in ChatGPT, that you want to be the best answer for? The most creative answer for? The most helpful answer for? And how do you build on that?” And the big rock is the core, and every piece of content that comes out of that derivative piece of content – video, podcasts, whatever it may be – just links back and supports that. So, you can own that conversation. There’s a wealth of content that we know that it’s the content apocalypse, or whatever, I think Mark Schaefer calls it Content Shock. Well, you know, we’re probably on the verge of content shock 3.0 with all the AI-generated stuff coming out. The difference here is, everybody wants to be better storytellers; everybody wants to be more creative. But we discovered very quickly, and I saw this at Microsoft, I saw this at LinkedIn, that it’s very difficult to tell a very compelling story that stands out and tie it back to the product. We thought it’s super easy. Everybody’s a storyteller, Yadda, yadda, yadda. Well, it’s hard. And it’s hard to get people to pay attention not because of the attention spans, but because of all the crap that’s out there that’s inundating them. And everyone’s looking for a shortcut to going viral or a shortcut to get engagement. And if you look at it, you take a step back, and you look at creativity. And creativity has been associated with arts and design, and I think if you take a look at how creativity can be applied to B2B, B2C marketing, whatever, creativity is about finding unique solutions, unique ways to address very complex problems. And the more constraints you have, the more elegant that solution can be. So, I think if you take that storytelling angle, and you bring in this new definition of creativity, or this revised definition of creativity, and apply that to really good informative content – add opinions, add personality – that’s the piece that we’re missing. That’s the piece that’s going to stand out. That’s the element that I think we’re missing, and we talk about it so much, but every time a brand gets up to bat and takes a big swing… they seem to get cold feet. And they don’t want to take a risk and they play it safe, and then it gets lost. And that’s what drives me crazy. George: I’m just wondering if we could talk a little bit about sort of how you guys are navigating that journey and putting that unique value into your content to sort of stave off the change side that we’ve been talking about. Jason: Out of all the roles I’ve ever had, I think this is the most challenging, but also the most rewarding. I don’t want that to sound cheesy, but marketing to a very technical audience – they don’t like to be marketed to they don’t like the fluff and the snake oil,  they like to solve problems. And they like to get to the core, and they like straight talking. So, it’s almost like everyone should take lessons from marketing to this technical crowd – developers, CIOs, CTOs, architects – because it is challenging, and you have to be real. And they can see through all this fluff and BS. So, Tyk is an open-source gateway, full lifecycle API management platform, we do lots of different things. But what we’re seeing in the market, and it’s really interesting and I think it’s called a once-in-a-marketing-lifetime opportunity, you’re seeing category creation happen right before your eyes. APIs are becoming much more mainstream, they used to be very technical, just for developers and architects. But now everyone needs to understand the basics of how you can use APIs to grow and monetise your products, right? So, we’re seeing new audiences come into this very technical world and there’s an opportunity to not only educate them, and build trust with them, but also to create a new category. It’s always about, you know, educating and building trust. And I think that’s why you’ve seen sort of branding, making a comeback. Now we’re figuring out that no one’s going to click on anything unless they know who you are, and they trust you. And I think that’s the importance of the brand coming around. Brand storytelling, creativity, content, social, all of this is coming back to becoming the most critical piece to moving forward. It’s the only thing we have left, I think in terms of marketing effectively, and in an authentic manner. George: I’d love to hear from you, Jason, some more like small-scale stories of like, you know, when you’ve been working with Tyk, or even before, when you were with LinkedIn, and Microsoft, you know, were there specific situations where you had a piece of content and something happened that changed it? And you thought, “Okay, we’ve got to go back and do something else with this.” Or maybe the opposite, where the other people thought something had to be changed, and you were like, “No, no, no, this has got to stay the same.” Jason: Here’s the thing. Every piece of content that me or my team has ever created at any org has always been created for a purpose rooted in data, right? So if we put it out there, and it doesn’t perform, we don’t give up, and I think that’s the difference, right? So, we either change the title, we change the copy, we change the creative. I think you keep going, if you know it’s rooted in data, and you know, there’s an appetite for it, I think you need to give it two or three shots. So, even at LinkedIn, and even at Tyk, we’ve released the same piece of content two or three times, tweaked it, changed the creative, changed the targeting, changed the approach, changed the format. So, I do see a lot of marketers just being forced into launching and moving on – if it fails, it fails. And I think anything that you create, anything that you bring your team together to put some blood, sweat, and tears into, you need to give it every opportunity. I’d say after the third time, maybe if you got it wrong, by the third time… George: Three strikes and you’re out sort of thing, right? I guess there’s changes that are sort of internal like, say, if you guys at Tyk decide to release a new product set or something like that, you know, that’s a change that you guys are starting and you know, I guess you’d want to create new content around a new product or solution, you’ve released that type of thing. And there’s obviously change that gets sort of forced upon you by external factors. So, like your market changes, or like, I don’t know, ChatGPT. Suddenly, everybody thinks it’s going to change how your industry operates, and you’re almost reacting to change that’s happening externally. Do they hit differently for you as a content marketer? Is there a different approach you would take for those different types of changes? Jason: I think with every time there’s a change, it’s an opportunity, right? There’s an opportunity to answer the biggest questions, but also be a bit of a thought leader. Again, I think these are words that are tossed around way too loosely. But you know, you answer the questions, and you tie it back to how your platform or your solution can help solve that answer or ease that pain. But the biggest opportunities around getting the experts in your company to form an opinion on what this means for that. Right? So, what does ChatGPT mean for developers or mean for the API world? You know, we have a very outspoken, very opinionated CEO in Martin Buhr, and James Hirst, our co-founders. And so as soon as we see that, as a content team, we go after the big questions with some blog content, video content. But then we go to our leadership and we say, “What does this mean? People need to know what this means?” And they’re looking for someone to take that conversation and share hopefully some good news, but also some things to be maybe cautious about. So, I don’t see that enough. And I think that’s the biggest opportunity. George: If you could share one piece of advice for somebody that was in a situation where they were seeing change and were a bit frightened by it. As a content marketer, you know, if you could give them one tip to kind of change their perspective, what would you say to them? Jason: I mean, the biggest tip for me when I first heard about AI, and I talk a lot about creativity, AI creativity and it’s something I’ve been talking about quite a bit. Was I concerned? Of course. But here’s the thing, if you have your network of trusted sort of advisors, right – and I know my go-tos right, they’re the Doug Kesslers, the Jay Acunzos, the Ann Handleys – if you have that in place, and these are the folks that you trust in your feed, and that you go to these folks, and this is, again, goes back to that opportunity of that opinion, what does this all mean by a trusted leader who’s got the expertise? If you have that in place, and you do your own research on the side, those two coming together will alleviate any sort of anxiety or challenge because you have the trusted advisors and you have your own research, and you can form your own opinion. The part that frightens me is that people just take these text-based posts at face value because they’ve gotten 600 shares or whatever, and they don’t look at where it’s coming from, and they don’t look at the intent on where it’s coming from. Right? Again, and this goes back to every good marketer, every good content marketer every like, even as a photographer as a creative, who are your 10 to 12 sources, that you have an individual feed or you subscribe to the newsletters, and these are the ones that you trust in, believe in, that you’ve built up over time. There’s always some new ones coming in, but just see where they’re coming from. And make sure that they’re coming from a place of good intent, and not trying to take advantage of the situation, right? So, it’s your responsibility – there’s no shortage of experts and opinions out there, it’s how you curate them, and how you build trust or trust those folks to keep you in a good place. George: Thanks, Jason, for your insightful response to a very tricky question. It’s interesting to hear that yes, there are plenty of ways savvy marketers can create content that stands the test of time, and resists change. So, Diane, what stood out for you there? Diane: Yeah, I think it was a really great answer, actually. There were a few different parts that stood out to me. One, the key thing about having, big rock content, right? And also this idea of, if you have evergreen content that you can just slap a fresh coat of paint on. I think that’s a really great place to start. Because when it comes to content, there’s a lot of talk about creation, and not as much talk about repurposing, re-igniting, I guess, redistributing, looking at one piece that you have, and actually looking for different angles, different points of views, different ways to share them, and kind of elaborate on those. So, I think that that was a really great place to start in probably the same place, I would have started with my answer as well. George: Yeah, absolutely. I think it ties in with something he said at the end, that actually really stood out for me, which is: if you know an idea is good, you kind of need to give it a few tries. He mentioned this idea of like he might try something two or three times and you know, you might put it out there and it doesn’t get the engagement you expect. But you know, the idea is good. So you’ve tweaked the PPC adverts that link through to whatever piece you’ve produced something like that, you tweak a few things and give it another try, because you kind of have that confidence in it. And, I think that kind of goes back to what you were saying about, you know, almost you can give something a new lease of life by repackaging it and give it that second chance that it might deserve to kind of actually break through and well, go viral – I say in sort of quotation marks – as much as anything in B2B goes viral. I’m curious about how you felt when I was interviewing Jason. I almost hoped we were doing good justice to Kate’s question, because I think it’s such an interesting idea of all these different forms of change. But I kind of love that Jason almost just took it to a different angle and was like, “You know, what, don’t worry about change. What’s evergreen is you need to tell a good story.” Like, “Forget about change, don’t worry about that. You’ve got to focus on making your content just really good to read.” And so I thought it was quite an interesting way to tackle that and think about, you know, becoming better storytellers. And how hard that is. I mean, well, it resonated with me from a writing perspective. I don’t know how you felt about that, Diane. Diane: Yeah, I do think that was a really great point as well. And I think that coming from that angle, it’s almost like kind of “Disregard the idea of change. So, I know that’s your question, but let’s put it to the side for a minute.” And really thinking about not just the quality and actually really great storytelling, but one thing that I think is incredibly important is this idea of having a strong point of view at the core of thought leadership, which is a phrase that gets thrown around a lot. And it’s like, well, the phrase does begin with “thought”. So you do have to have a really strong thought on something and some kind of opinion. And, you know, it doesn’t always have to be based around change, I think that a really interesting way of looking at how you approach content in times of change is, well, all of these trends are happening, and there’s a lot of change happening around you, what are you constant about? And that might also be a different way of looking at things. I know that in the work that I do with my clients, helping them create a messaging strategy. One of the key things that we work on is, you know, what is your point of view? What is your point of view about the changing landscape and about the industry in which you operate? Because there’s often a huge shift happening, and your customers and prospects are often coming to you to help them kind of solve a problem. And so, what is it that you stand for? And I think that’s also a really great way of looking at building out evergreen content and different ways to approach that theme or that topic that you can own. George: Absolutely. It’s really interesting to hear about your experiences from the sort of strategy and messaging side with your own clients, and how these same topics apply really whatever sort of area of the marketing piece you come in from, it all has the same sort of foundational requirements to meet something that’s really good and will stand the test of time. I’m also wondering, I know this wasn’t necessarily directly what Kate was getting at with the question, but it struck me that, at one point, Jason and I wound up talking quite a bit about ChatGPT. Because you know, I think that the generative AI technology that’s coming in does pose a really fundamental change; maybe one of the biggest changes potentially, we’ve seen for a lot of industries in a long time. And again, I think the idea that a lot of these technologies, all they can do is sort of repackage things that are already out there and that they’ve been trained on, right? So, the idea that you can counter that by just having your own unique perspective as a human is quite a sort of empowering way, I think of looking at a new technology that I imagine a lot of marketers are sort of finding a bit scary that this stuff can come out and produce stuff that sounds like real copy. I don’t know if you’ve sort of had to play around with any of these technologies, Diane, and have your own perspective on that sort of change coming in. Diane: I think I’m most interested in using AI from a process-oriented perspective to bring operational efficiencies into the way that I work. Definitely, in terms of maybe summarising, synthesising data, and helping me find themes. But, particularly because a lot of the work that I do is based on the company’s strategy, based on interviewing founders, really kind of human-to-human understanding your perspective and your point of view, and brainstorming and workshopping, and all that kind of stuff. So I’m not too worried about AI from that perspective, but I do see that it can bring a lot of value in other areas. Jason was talking about, you know, if you’ve got a question, if you’ve got to answer a question, or you’re going to type a question into a search engine, and then kind of spew an answer… If that’s the type of content you’re producing, then you really need to add another layer on top. George: And I think, you know, Jason made a really good point as well about how that change with generative AI, and also lots of other changes, they do create that sort of opportunity, like you said, to have a unique thought that positions you as a thought leader and leads into thought leadership content. Speaking of which, one final thing Jason said, that really jumped out to me that I’d love to discuss with you is this idea of him saying that when there’s change happening in your industry, and it’s kind of scary, what do you do? And he suggested turning to these people that you trust, voices in your industry that you know will have a good thought about it. I’m just wondering, do you have any particular people that you trust as a sort of trusted voice within the industry? What kind of things would you recommend for people looking for those trusted sources of information? Diane: Yeah, I think this was a really great point. And I think it really depends on your industry, the industry in which you’re operating, and whether you’re looking for voices who operate in that industry, or who have this sort of same role as you. You know, marketers follow marketers, or CEOs and leadership, also following other leaders to hear how kind of how they’re addressing the challenges in their org. Or whether you’re sort of trying to listen to, you know, top voices within tech or AI. One thing that I think I’ve fallen into the trap of is living in a bit of a vacuum. You know, marketers like to talk to other marketers, and sometimes you go on LinkedIn, and we’re just marketing to each other. And I’m trying to kind of expand my network now and really connect with and follow and listen to podcasts. really out of my realm of expertise, and I think that we don’t talk about that enough. And so I would perhaps suggest that as well. I want to be up to date on what is happening and so I’m also kind of connecting with and following people on LinkedIn who are kind of top voices in those arenas. So I would say play around, look through your network, and then sort of branch out. If you’re listening to the same podcasts and reading the same newsletters, I would say ask around beyond your industry and also beyond your role in the org. George: It’s interesting, what you mentioned about sort of slowly branching out as well because I think when people think about building a network, they think it’s something they can just snap their fingers and have hundreds of people they’ll turn to for trusted information. But, I know speaking to both you and Jason – people who’ve done all sorts of things in their careers – I imagine it’s a slow process. You slowly start to branch out and see who’s trustworthy, who has the best thoughts about things, who’s covering the latest topics, and you’re building that up piece by piece. Diane: Listening to or reading thoughts from people who have big followings is great. But bear in mind that often the bigger your following is because you’re sometimes putting out a bit more generic content that is more palatable to the masses. And so I also think it’s worth connecting with – and listening to – underrepresented voices as well. So, don’t always just go out there and say, “Okay, which are the top 10 marketing leaders, thought leaders, which are the top five marketing podcasts?” Also listen to some of those that are not being spoken about, and that aren’t at the top of everyone’s list, because there are a lot of people doing brilliant things. And I think that diversity of voices and diversity of thought is also incredibly important when it comes to content and improving your own thought process. George: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. It’s a really great idea. So, Diane, in the interview with Jason, he had this really interesting idea, this model of big rock content that stays the same; little rock content that doesn’t. And I’m wondering if you’ve had any strategies when you’ve been working with your clients to kind of establish those big rock things that don’t change and kind of still stand up and help you create content, even if things are changing and that content’s still relevant? Diane: Yeah, it definitely is. I think that this links really nicely to an element that I work on with my clients when helping them build out a messaging strategy. And that’s the concept of having key messaging pillars. So, if you’re creating key messaging pillars at the company level, so these things that you own in your customers’ minds and your prospects’ minds, a few topics, or themes or ideas that you can completely own and go after, that you want to be remembered for. It makes, obviously, creating content around these things a lot easier. And I think that once you have those as well, it’s easier to kind of stay rooted and stay grounded in one thing, even if there are trends consistently changing. So I think that we talk a little bit in content about having content pillars, and it’s the same as sort of the messaging in your company strategy – you should also have very clear messaging pillars so that everything that you produce from copy and content is also kind of grounded and revolves around those themes. George: Before we wrap this episode up, it’s time for our copywriting pro tip. Voiceover: Copywriting pro tip Ettie Bailey-King: Constantly ask, “What’s in it for me?” to get in your reader’s mindset. Diane:  Thanks, Ettie, that’s an amazing piece of advice for writing and probably many other professions as well. I know I use this daily in my work. George: As do I. Well, with that then, we’ve reached the end of today’s episode. So, Diane, thank you so much for co-hosting again, it’s been a real pleasure to speak with you today. Thank you. Diane: Thanks for having me. We should also thank Jason Miller for answering our question, Ettie for the pro tip, and of course, Kate Terry for asking the question that prompted today’s episode. George: Thanks to everyone that contributed to today’s episode. Remember, listener, next time, it could be your question that we answer. Voiceover: If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer, email, a voice memo to podcast@radix-communications.com. Or find us on social media. George: We’ll be back soon for another B2BQ&A. Until then, take it easy and remember change is the only constant although the need for good storytelling is pretty constant too. Diane and George: Goodbye. The post B2BQ&A 112: How can B2B content stay consistent when everything changes? appeared first on Radix.

Account-based marketing owes a lot of its power to the way its content can speak to this reader in particular, and address their unique needs. But how much tailoring is too much? That’s the question we’ll be tackling in this episode of B2BQ&A, on behalf of Rhiannon Blackwell, Account-Based Marketing Leader at PwC. Specifically, Rhiannon asked: “How do you strike the right balance between your brand voice and messaging and hyper-relevance with a client, for example, by using their language?” To answer Rhiannon’s great question, we’re thrilled to welcome two further well-known experts from the world of ABM. Our special interview guest is Andrea Clatworthy, Head of Marketing Transformation in Europe for Fujitsu, while our guest co-host Judy Wilks is International ABM and Executive Content Lead at Autodesk. Along with Radix’s own David McGuire, we try to get to the bottom of how to show a customer or prospect you really understand them withough being, well, creepy. But wait; there’s more. You’ll also hear an essential copywriting pro tip from Sarah Mullaney, freelance copywriter and content writer, and owner of She’s a Writer. You’ll find a full transcript of this episode at the end of this post. Need to balance relevance for the client and your own brand voice? Here are the key takeaways from the podcast: 1. Use the client’s language It’s important to mimic the language your clients use when they talk about their business. Make sure that everything you say to them, you put in the context of their brand – not your own. According to Andrea, “It could be as simple as just recognising whether a client calls their customers “customers”, or “consumers”, or even “clients”. 2. Focus on your customer’s worries, not your brand Relevance to the reader is all-important in ABM, but it can be especially tough to find that blend between what the brand wants to say – and how it wants to say it – and what the reader needs to read. As Andrea explains: “Whilst your brand is important to the customer, it’s not the primary thing that they are worrying about.” 3. Be careful how you use research With a lot of B2B content, there’s a temptation to show more of your research than you should. But in ABM, the risks of getting it wrong are even greater, so be careful – if you tell your reader things they already know, you’re not going to get very far. And remember, there’s a fine line between “personalised” and “creepy”. 4. Understand how people consume content Finding out how your audience consumes information can give you a good indicator of how to deliver your content. “It’s worth the effort to find out if a client is turned on by numbers and graphs,” says Andrea. “Or if they prefer video over written, or they like snackable content rather than long-form. Figuring that out can be really helpful.” 5. Don’t tell the client you get them – show them This golden rule holds true for any writing, but if your ABM content can show an understanding of your reader’s business (without telling them their business) you can provoke a powerful response. As Andrea explains: “If you get it right, the reader or, if you like, the consumer of your writing, will have a positive emotional reaction. And they’ll be more likely to share content internally and be your advocate.” Want some further reading? Here are the sources Andrea mentions: For a great primer on ABM, Andrea recommends Bev Burgess and Dave Munn’s excellent book A Practitioner’s Guide to Account-Based Marketing. If you want to gain an insight into how people like to consume information, a good starting point for Andrea is DiSC® profiling. Here’s what you can expect in this episode… 4:01 – David poses Rhiannon Blackwell’s question to Andrea Clatworthy. 15:00 – Co-host Judy Wilks gives her thoughts on Andrea’s insights. 21:58 – Judy and David discuss the fine line between “personalised” and “creepy”. 24:23 – Sarah Mullaney from She’s a Writer shares a copywriting pro tip. 25:05 – David updates us on the search for the best B2B content of all time. Ever. Got a question? We’ll find the answer. To get your burning B2B content question answered, just send us a voice memo at podcast@radix-communications.com. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can connect with us on LinkedIn and Twitter: @radixcom. How to listen:  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As”). Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts. Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player. Credits Thanks to Andrea Clatworthy for sharing so many ABM insights. Heartfelt appreciation to Rhiannon Blackwell for her question. Cheers to Sarah Mullaney for sharing a fantastic copywriting pro tip. And enormous gratitude to Judy Wilks for being an excellent guest co-host. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash. Transcript: B2BQ&A 111 – How can ABM content balance relevance and brand voice? Rhiannon Blackwell: How do you strike the right balance between your brand voice and messaging and hyper-relevance with a client? For example, by using their language. Judy Wilks: Well, what a great question from Rhiannon, and something that’s very close to my heart. Let’s ask Andrea Clatworthy of Fujitsu, what she thinks. David McGuire: Hello, listener, and welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 111. Judy: Account Based Marketing, or ABM for short, relies on your content talking to a very specific audience about their very specific needs and concerns. But the big question is: how do you balance that with delivering your own messaging and brand voice at the same time? In a few moments, ABM expert Andrea Clatworthy will answer that very question posed by our friend and colleague, Rhiannon Blackwell of PwC. Plus, we’ll hear a copywriting pro tip from Sarah Mullaney and get an update on your search for the best B2B content of all time. David: Before all that, let’s do some introductions. My name is David McGuire. I’m Creative Director at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency, and I’m delighted to say that we have another ABM leader as our co-host for this episode. It’s Judy Wilks, International ABM and Executive Content Lead at Autodesk. Judy, thank you so much for joining us. Judy: Thank you for having me. I’m very happy to be here. David: That’s some job title. What does it actually involve? Judy: That’s a very good question. So, in a nutshell, our team designs and creates content that does two things: content that fuels regional ABM programs and content that fuels global executive engagement within Autodesk. David: So, from that point of view, as well as Andrea’s viewpoint, which we’ll get in a minute, you’re very well placed to help us answer Rhiannon’s question as well. So, that’s amazing. Thank you so much. Before we get on to that, though, would you mind performing your first official duty as our co-host and telling the listener how they can get in touch with us? Judy: Absolutely. So, listener, if you have any comments or suggestions, you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter: @radixcom. Or, if you want us to answer your question in a future episode, just record a quick voice note and send it in by email: podcast@radix-communications.com. David: That’s amazing. Thank you. Judy: Now it’s time for our B2B Q&A for this episode. It comes from someone I know well from the ABM circuit; it’s PwC’s ABM leader for global marketing, Rhiannon Blackwell. Rhiannon: How do you strike the right balance between your brand voice and messaging and hyper-relevance with a client – for example, by using their language, David: Thanks, Rhiannon. It feels like we have a lot of ABM experts on the show today, which is great, because this really is an important question. Relevance to the reader is all-important in ABM. When we’re writing ABM content, it can be especially tough to find that blend between what the brand wants to say and how it wants to say it, and what the reader needs to read. So, how can you strike that balance? Well, I asked Fujitsu’s Head of Marketing Transformation in Europe and long-time ABM evangelist, Andrea Clatworthy. And I started by asking her Rhiannon’s question: just how do you balance client relevance and brand voice? Andrea Clatworthy: This is such a great question. And it’s not an uncommon one. It’s like a “depends” answer, which is never a good one, but I think it’s right to find the balance. And so thinking about it depends. For instance, if what you’re trying to do with your customer is perhaps reposition yourself, then you probably want to dial down your brand a little bit – without breaking the rules – and use more of the customer’s voice. If perhaps it’s a new customer, or it’s new territory for you and you’re trying to break in, then perhaps you want to dial up your brand whilst recognising their voice. So it’s a really fine line. And I find what we try and do when we’re creating the story and the narrative and the value proposition, we’re thinking all the time about what’s important to the customer. And whilst your brand is important to the customer, it’s not the primary thing that they’re worrying about. I would edge towards dialling it down just a little bit, but don’t break the guidelines. I think it’s really important not to break your brand guidelines because they’re there for a reason. But you can stretch them. And you can take some liberties… perhaps. Having said that, sometimes it’s appropriate to use some of the branding elements that your customer might have. So perhaps they’ve got an imagery style that you want to mimic rather than be 100% them. Or it depends on what the communication is that you’re going to be providing. So, supposing it’s in the form of an infographic or something, as part of a conversation, and you want, you expect, and you’d love them to then use that asset, that you’ve created for them, with their stakeholders in their company, as part of their business case process if you like. Then you might want to make it slightly more their brand. So, even though it looks like yours, and you’re suggesting this awesome thing, it’s easier for them to reuse that asset. David: And that makes their life easier and turns them into kind of a representative of you. And I guess that goes for both brand elements, design-wise, but then also if they have a particular vocabulary, like a particular way of talking about a subject or an issue. Andrea: Yes, there might be a project name that they use, or it could be as simple as just recognising whether they call their customers “customers”, or “clients”, or “consumers”? So, use the language that they use when they talk about their business. David: Is there a chance, though, that a writer working on ABM Content could almost be too keen to show how much research they’ve done? And end up either telling the reader something they already know? Or just being a bit creepy? Andrea: Yeah, that creepy thing is spot on, isn’t it? And actually, it’s relatively easy to get it wrong and I’ll give you an example of somebody pitching to me. So, I’m a gamer. And somebody came in to see me, I reached out to them and said, you know, tell me stuff about your proposition. And they came to me, and they’ve ABMed and done everything personalised and tailored to me, which is great. And they focused on this gamer aspect. And I like a particular type of game, but they pitched to me using first-person fighter game, and they’re not the sorts of games that I like. So they got the gaming bit, right, but they got the type of gaming bit wrong. So instantly, I’m kind of like: this is a bit creepy, and it’s wrong. So I gave them that feedback, you know, say thanks ever so much. It was so nearly right but made it completely wrong. So using that research correctly is a trick there. David: And I guess that must be easier – or maybe riskier – if you’re writing to accounts that you know well. Andrea: If it’s an existing account, it’s much easier to get that balance right, because you know them and you’re in dialogue all the time, and you know completely what you’re doing. And the marketing part of that ongoing engagement will be reflective of the conversations that the account team or whoever is having. So it’s much easier to get that right; it’s much harder when you don’t really know who you’re talking to. Then you probably edge a bit more on your brand, but reflect the language that you know that they use. David: And when you’re doing your research in that case, and you’re thinking about the challenges they’re facing, and how your products and solutions can match that, how much are you thinking about the position that the company’s in? And how much are you thinking about the individual role? Like, are you thinking, “Oh, this is a company in the retail sector,” or are you thinking, “This is a CTO,” or whatever? Andrea: It’s a bit of both to be quite honest. And then a bit contextual. A company in the retail sector might be in growth mode, or they might be in massive reduction mode, as we’re seeing happening across the piece, they’re just reflecting where they are, because the language that you use might be slightly different. If they’re in growth mode, and they’re being really prosperous, then they’re going to have a slightly different outlook on any future investments that they’re going to make, compared to if they need to reduce in one shape or form whether that’s people, or stores, or whatever. So it is both. That persona piece is important too. So if it’s a CTO, then you know, there’s loads of work on personas and I think most people are probably reasonably comfortable with those. But, then if you know who that CTO is, as a human being, then picking up on some of those things is equally important if you can get it right. So I think that there are a few bits to this. There’s a bit about emotion. If you get it right, the reader, if you like the consumer of your writing, copy, assets – whatever it is – they have a positive emotional reaction, hopefully. And then they’re more likely to continue the conversation or, you know, share internally, and be your advocate. So, that’s a very clear signal. David: I’m interested in the emotional response. What kind of response is that? Is that kind of a relief at feeling seen; that someone is recognising what they’re struggling with? Is it kind of delight and surprise, like, what sort of emotions are you seeing from the best content that you send? Andrea: Yeah, those ones, and “relief” is a great word. Because actually, if you get the personalisation bit right, and what you’re suggesting you can help them with is right as well, then that’s the combo, because what you want people to do is to choose you above everybody else. So, if you’ve delivered those messages correctly, you can kind of get a sense that these people get me and I can see how we could work together. And they’re going to solve a business problem one way, shape, or form, whatever that might be, with me when I choose to work with them. So, it’s a bit of euphoria as well, I guess, David: It’s not adding on something to make them feel emotional. It’s actually listening and thinking about what they really need, and then expressing that in a really kind of clear and impactful way. Andrea: I think you’re spot on. That listening piece is really important, isn’t it? If you think about the old elephant adage: two big ears so do the listening first. If you get that right, then it can really help. Now, how do you listen? That would be the next question. We can read stuff, right? But quite often, if you’ve got an account team in with that account, they’re really getting to know those people, that person. So that they’re your primary source of that first-party insight if you like. It’s really important to include them in the process that you’re going through to create whatever it is you’re creating. David: Okay, so we’ve thought about the branding, the voice, the vocabulary, and the kind of messaging that you’re aiming to deliver to make that connection. What else is important in ABM content that really works? Andrea: Great question, again. I think it’s worth considering the format of the content that you’re going to be delivering. Understanding how people consume information can give you a really good indicator of how to deliver that content. So, if somebody is very much numbers based, then think about making sure that there’s numbers and perhaps graphs. If somebody likes to consume video over written, or perhaps they like snackable content rather than long form, and then working some of that out can be really helpful. And clearly, you want to use omnichannel anyway. Don’t just rely on one thing. There are some little things you can do. So you can use some DiSC profiling, for example, which will give you an indicator of the type of behaviours and brain workings, to use a non-technical term, that could determine how people like to consume information. So that’s quite a good starting point. David: It’s really thinking about the individual and what they need, really in a kind of 360 way. Andrea: Yeah, absolutely. And, we know, don’t we, as good marketeers, that different content and content formats work better at different stages of the customer journey. So, building that in as well to your comms plan is a good thing to do. David: That’s amazing. Thank you. So if the listener wants to find out more and really dive into the subject of creating really good ABM content, where do you suggest they go for more information? Andrea: A really good starting point is a bit of reading. There’s a really great book by Bev Burgess called A Practitioner’s Guide to ABM. And it is a practitioner’s guide, so that’s a great place to start. I’d also recommend reaching out to organisations like yourself, David. David: [Laughs] Thank you very much; the cheque’s in the post Thanks, Andrea, that’s great. It’s so helpful to know there’s no one right answer; you can dial your brand voice up and down – depending on the job your content needs to do. Judy, what stood out for you there as an ABM leader? Judy: Well, actually, “everything” is one answer. There was such a lot of great stuff in there and like a topic that I could talk about till the cows come home. But there were two key things that Andrea said that I think are kind of foundational. And number one is: never break the brand rules. That’s just a good starting point for any ABM. Not your brand rules, nor the client’s brand rules. And then moving on, I pulled out this quote, and I wrote it down and I’m going to read it because I think it’s really essential to ABM. Andrea said, “Whilst your brand is important to the customer, it’s not the primary thing that they are worrying about.” And that’s just absolutely crucial, you know. It’s a nice way of saying the customer doesn’t care about you or your brand. You have to make sure that everything you say to them, you put in the context of their business. So what that means with getting that balance right between your brand and voice and theirs, is that if you, if your piece, either visually or stylistically shouts your brand, you’re actually not going to get your point across because your point in ABM is always: I understand your business. And if you’re shouting your brand, you’re not going to get that point across. So you need to think about that. But, at the same time, it’s really powerful when you get it right that you can show the synergies between two brands. David: So is it more complicated than the way the content sounds, the way the content looks, the vocabulary you choose, the register you write in, are maybe led by your brand, so that it’s recognisable, but the content, the stuff that you write about, the messaging, that kind of stuff is led by their priorities? So maybe the content is about them, but the branding and the voice are about you? Or is it more nuanced than that? Judy: I think that is your starting point. And then it depends. I think you can look at it like a continuum. Absolutely, the content will always 100% be about them. That’s the starting point. But the continuum is then how much do you kind of shift the brand, the tone, the voice, the vocabulary, to reflect the customer, as well? And that will depend on a couple of things. It will depend on: what is your level of awareness with that customer already, and what is the level of the relationship? If, as Andrea said, you need to establish awareness with the customer, then you’re probably going to want to lean more towards your brand. But, if you’re at the partnership stage, then you might want to show how the two brands work together, so you really visually and stylistically get that partnership message across. David: Yeah, and I guess, all of this with the proviso that when you talk about the vocabulary that you use, any specific terminology should be their terminology. So if they call their customers “clients”, or they call their customers “members”, for example, or if they have certain initiatives that they have their own language for, then you should absolutely adopt that rather than trying to impose your terminology on top of something that they would recognise. Judy: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I don’t really have anything to add to that. I 100% agree. David: With a lot of B2B content generally, there’s always a temptation, when you’ve done your research, to show maybe more of that research than you should and end up telling the reader things that they already know, to kind of show off how much you know. I guess that’s an even stronger temptation, in ABM, given how much you will know about your particular audience, right? Judy: Yeah. And this is a podcast so you couldn’t see me smiling then. But yes, absolutely. That is a real danger because as you say, you do a lot of research into the company and their business and you know a lot about them. And it’s ABM, so you really want to show them we understand your business. But if you just tell them what they already know about their business, you’re not going to get very far. So I apply the adage here that you don’t tell someone you’re funny, you make them laugh. It’s the same thing: you don’t tell them everything you know about their business, you show that you understand their business by the recommendations that you make in the content. And, let’s face it, you’re never going to know their business as well as they do. But the value that you bring is that you are an outside perspective. So you show them you understand their business, by adding that outside perspective to what you know about them – and perhaps sending them something they hadn’t thought of before. David: Yeah, it’s the same thing as when I’m training copywriters in general how to do this stuff. OK, you’ve got this knowledge about them. So what? So it’s not, you know, “Ah, this company has workforces on three different continents” or whatever it is, it’s “Because you have a workforce on three continents, you will need to handle time zones in this way or handle collaboration – and here’s a way that we can help you with that.” Like, we’ve done the thinking around the “so what?” about the information that we have – we’re not just parroting back the information. I think that’s obviously all the more important in ABM, and I think in any B2B content, that’s useful. Judy: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, in any content, the more you talk about the customer, and the more you show an understanding of their business – without telling them their business – then it’s going to be more powerful. So yes, that is exactly it. Which takes thinking. It’s one thing to have a load of data, it’s another thing to then analyse that data. So, suddenly the writer is not just a writer, you know, the writer is suddenly an ABM strategist as well. And, I always say, “Writing is thinking.” It’s not just about putting words on a page, you’ve got to have those thoughts first before you can then articulate them nicely on a page. David: Yeah. Do you have any advice on how much of your research it’s even okay to show before you start to kind of worry them that you’re getting a bit creepy? Judy: Well, now we’re talking about talking to the individual, and as well as talking to the company. And, the topic of creepy personalisation, as I often call it, comes up a lot in ABM. And, I think one good standard is to think: how would I feel if it happened to me? So, for example, on my Twitter profile, I probably say I’m a cat fancier. But if someone gave a business presentation, and it had cats all over it and used cat analogies, or gifs… is that going to make me like them more? David: Of course it is! Be honest… Judy: All right, well, even if you take cats out of the equation, you know, that’s creepy. And we come back to what is the one key word that sums up ABM? It’s relevance. Are cats relevant to that conversation? No, they’re not. I think it’s much more powerful, if yes, you do your homework about that person, but you also try and understand their values. What are their motivations? What’s their personality type? So, don’t just kind of look at what they do out of work, “Oh, David plays golf, let’s put some golf analogies in here.” That’s not relevant. But, if you understand their motivations and the type of person they are, then you can tailor the content in the right way. So for example, if I think of myself as a bit of a change agent – and typically, I’ll have plastered that all over LinkedIn – it won’t be very difficult to find. If I’m that type of person, then you need to position whatever you’re proposing as some bold, exciting, disruptive move. That’s much more powerful than putting some images of cats or golf into your content. David: Before we finish this episode, there are a couple more things we need to do. First, it’s time for our copywriting pro tip. Voiceover: Copywriting pro tip. Sarah Mullaney: My name is Sarah Mullaney, from She’s a Writer, and my B2B copywriting tip is to have core materials about the values or proof points of the client within reach when you’re writing about them. You can use these to focus less on what services or solutions the clients are offering and keep bringing the copy back to why the client is a leader in their field and why their customers continue to use them. This will help you to get into the mind of the reader writing the most purposeful and benefit-driven B2B copy for them. Judy: Thanks, Sarah. That sounds like a really useful tip for making sure that you can stay on track during the day. So, David, I gather that you have something to ask the listener. David: Yeah, I do… To mark the 10th anniversary of this podcast, we’re continuing our search for the best B2B content of all time. Now, in particular, we’d like the listeners’ help finding the best blog posts, case studies, and web content. There’s so much to choose from out there, it’d be really helpful if anyone could tell us where to focus our search. All you need to do is to jot down one or two of your favourites and email them to us at vote@radix-communications.com. Or just fire them at us on LinkedIn or Twitter. Anyway, Judy, thank you so much for co-hosting. It’s been so much fun to do this with you. I wish we had more time. Judy: I know. Well, I’ve already said I could talk about this topic forever. So, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. And I guess while we’re at it, we should thank everybody else that’s been involved in this episode. So, in no particular order, thank you, first of all, to Andrea Clatworthy, for answering the really great question. Thank you to Sarah Mullaney for the pro tip. And lastly, thank you to Rhiannon Blackwell for asking the question in the first place. David: Rhiannon, I hope you feel that we have done you justice. Remember listener, it could be your question we answer in a future episode. Voiceover: If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer, email a voice memo to podcast@radix-communications.com. Or find us on social media. David: We’ll be back soon for another B2BQ&A. Until then, make great content. And remember: a writer only begins the content; it’s the reader who finishes it. Well, either them or that stakeholder who won’t sign it off anyway. David and Judy: Goodbye.     The post B2BQ&A 111: How can ABM content balance relevance and brand voice? appeared first on Radix.

Researching keywords is relatively easy in a popular B2C market – where data is plentiful and vocabulary is simple. But how do you find search intent in the rarefied world of B2B tech? That’s what Emily King from Bluefruit Software wants to know: “It’s one thing to know what you call your product or service, but it’s another to know what your potential audience is actually using in their searches. So how do you find this out?” Such an important question needs a very special guest… so we went straight to the top: Andy Crestodina from Orbit Media. Andy literally wrote the book on SEO and content marketing, and we’re thrilled to have him on the podcast. And we don’t just have Andy’s sage advice for you. In this month’s episode, we’re joined by guest co-host Ruth Connor, Content Marketing Specialist at B2B Marketing and Propolis. You’ll also hear a copywriting pro tip from UX writer Fiorella Rizzà, and there’s news of an exciting challenge to mark the 10th anniversary of this podcast. You’ll find a full transcript of this episode at the end of this post. Want to find the right keywords for B2B tech? Here are Andy’s five tips: 1. Embrace the B2B niche Writing for smaller companies that focus on niche B2B tech has opportunities in search that some of the bigger companies might miss. Andy explains: “If you don’t have super-high domain authority, that’s a benefit because it pushes you towards key phrases that are less popular – but much more targeted. The niche is where the fun is: you can find phrases that a small number of people are searching for, but they’re thrilled when they find you. The click-through and conversion rates are high. It’s an enormous opportunity. 2. Prioritise the bottom of the funnel Andy recommends targeting the key phrases that indicate strong commercial or transaction intent – the person who has their wallet out, but just needs a bit of help. “Start by optimising your homepage,” he advises. “That’s the page for which you have the best chance of ranking. Next, optimise your service pages. Those pages have strong intent; the visitor is looking for help – they need a service or a product.” 3. Empathy is the ultimate search marketing skill Andy suggests the ultimate source of keywords is your own audience. “If you get asked the same question two or three times you should be answering that question in your content,” he says. “We listen out for the topics that our audience really, really cares about. We put plans in place to publish on those topics. And then, as we’re publishing, we look for keyword opportunities.” 4. Target key phrases for which the best answer is very long and detailed The number of searches for which the click-through rate is zero keeps growing because Google’s Featured Snippets are so informative. According to Andy: “We should all be looking for opportunities to write content that is keyword focused, but also where the answer to the question is deep and long with details.” 5. Don’t just rank high; be interesting The days of fooling search engines with low-quality filler content are long gone. “You’re not doing SEO if you’re not sincerely trying to make one of the top 10 pages on the internet,” Andy proposes. “You have no right to rank if you made another medium-quality piece.” “But also, as you do this, don’t forget to inject your own voice; say something that’s provocative or counterintuitive. Put people into your articles and include contributor quotes from people with interesting ideas.” Further reading (and watching)… If you’d hear more from Andy, he publishes fortnightly on the Orbit Media blog. Andy’s book, Content Chemistry, is now in its 6th edition. (If you’re in the UK, and like booksellers who pay their taxes, Blackwells stock it.) Here’s Ruth’s nomination for the best B2B content ever: Vital Stats 1 by Earnest Here’s what you can expect in this episode… 1:59 – Ruth Connor explains why the BBC is a role model for content atomisation 5:11 – David McGuire poses Emily King’s question to Andy Crestodina 13:54 – Ruth and David discuss personas and the importance of talking to customers 23:49 – UX writer Fiorelli Rizzà shares a copywriting pro tip 24:15 – David McGuire announces a new challenge to mark our 10th anniversary Got a question? We’ll find the answer. To get your burning B2B content questions answered, just send us a voice memo at podcast@radix-communications.com. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on LinkedIn, or Twitter @radixcom. How to listen:  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As”) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player Credits Thank you, Andy Crestodina, for sharing so much SEO wisdom. Cheers also to Fiorella Rizzà for this month’s copywriting pro tip. And of course thanks to to Ruth Connor – our excellent guest co-host. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash. Transcript: B2BQ&A 110 – How can you find the right SEO keywords for niche B2B content? Emily King: It’s one thing to know what you call your product or service, but it’s another to know what your potential audience is actually using in their searches. So how do you find this out? Ruth Connor: That’s a brilliant question. Let’s ask Andy Crestodina from Orbit Media. David McGuire: Hello listener, and welcome back to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. We’re back for a new season, and this is Episode 110. Ruth: Wow, Episode 110. That feels pretty special. David: 10 years. Ruth: That’s incredible. That’s incredible. Well, in a few moments, we’re gonna hear from Andy Crestodina, the CMO and co-founder of Orbit Media studios, and all-round B2B SEO colossus. He’ll take a stab at answering this episode’s question: “Just how can you find the right keywords when you’re working in a super geeky B2B niche?” Or nitch as Americans would say. David: They do, they do. Ruth: Plus we’ll hear a copywriting pro tip from Content Designer and UX writer Fiorella Rizzà and we’ll reveal details of a new search to find the best B2B content of all time. David: Before all that though: Who are we? Well, my name is David McGuire. I’m Creative Director at Radix Communications, a B2B writing agency. And our guest co-host for this episode, I’m delighted to say, is a consultant, B2B tech marketing director, and the resident content marketing expert and trainer for B2B Marketing and Propolis. It’s Ruth Connor! Ruth, welcome. Ruth: Thank you very much, David, I’m really delighted to be here. David: As a content marketing expert yourself, where do you find inspiration for content marketing? Ruth: That’s a great question. And this is something I used to talk a lot about with my team. And we’d always look to actually the BBC and shows like Strictly Come Dancing, Line of Duty, and, more recently, Happy Valley. And that’s because I think the team at the Beeb do a great job of something I’m really passionate about when it comes to content marketing – which is recycling, reusing, and repurposing. So, taking that big piece of hero content and turning it into loads of different spin-off pieces of content. And I think they do a great job in some of those shows. I think you know you’ve kind of cracked the content marketing nutshell when you find people producing their own content because they’re so passionate about those shows. And I think the last few weeks on social media and Happy Valley just shows the strength of the sentiment for those shows. David: Wow. So if you’re in search of B2B marketing inspiration for your content, look to Happy Valley, look to Strictly and the way that they atomise things. That’s an amazing thought to start us off on this episode. Before we get on to answering this episode’s question, though, Ruth, would you mind performing your first official duty as co-host, and telling the listener how they can get in touch with us? Ruth: I’d love to David. Listener, if you have any comments or suggestions you can find Radix on LinkedIn (radix-communications-ltd) or Twitter (@radixcom). Or if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email to: podcast@radix-communications.com. David: That is perfect. Thank you so much. Ruth: Now it’s time for the B2BQ&A for this episode. And our question comes from a very familiar voice. Emily: Hi, B2BQ&A. This is Emily King from Bluefruit Software. I just had a question about how to effectively find out which keywords your target audience is using in their searches. So, it’s one thing to know what you call your product or service, but it’s another to know what your potential audience is actually calling it and what they’re using in their searches. So, how do you find this out? David: How lovely to hear from you again, Emily. Listener, in case you didn’t know, Emily actually started this podcast almost exactly 10 years ago. And for that, we’re endlessly grateful. But anyway, let’s get on with Emily’s question, which speaks to a bigger point. How can you make SEO work for you when you’re dealing with niche B2B audiences and subjects? And do you reach a point where talking to your customers is better than doing digital research? To answer we have an SEO and content marketing expert whom I’ve wanted to have on the podcast for basically as long as I can remember. Orbit Media CMO, Andy Crestodina publishes such helpful well-researched advice on digital content, I just knew he’d have something interesting to say here. So I asked him Emily’s question: How can you find the right SEO keywords, when you work in a geeky B2B niche? Andy Crestodina: If you’re in a B2B niche, especially a small one, you actually have big opportunities in search that some of the bigger companies might miss. So, it’s exciting to do SEO in a micro-niche for B2B. Niche companies tend to be smaller, which means in a way they have a bigger challenge because they don’t have super-high domain authority and difficulty ranking. That actually is a benefit, it just pushes you towards the less competitive, longer tail, less popular – but also much more targeted – key phrases. So it’s not a problem that you’re a smaller online player when you’re in a niche, when you’re targeting the more specific phrases, you can’t target the big general phrases. But those phrases are not as valuable as it might seem anyway, because you know less about the visitor; the visitor does not have strong intent. People who search for single words or the business category, very hard to convert them, because they’re less likely to have a specific need to look for a specific answer to need a specific service. So the niche is really where all the fun is, in B2B keyword research. You can find phrases that a small number of people are searching for, but they’re thrilled when they find you. The click-through rates are high, the conversion rates are high. So, it’s an enormous opportunity. And it’s something that the big companies will often miss. So there’s plenty of blue ocean in those longer three-, four-, or five-word key phrases that others fail to catch or to target, and that you can really target and win what might just be a trickle of traffic, but they’re very passionate, very engaged visitors. David: How hard is it to find out among that ocean of key phrases, which are the ones that your audience, in particular, are really interested in? Andy: Every key phrase equals intent. So when you think about the true story in the life of the person who just typed that on their keyboard – and it’s happening right now, as we speak all over the world – the more specific the key phrase, the more you know about their information needs. So if you think about keywords as being intent, you can target key phrases and therefore intent, that is at different stages in the person’s process, as they consider options. Some key phrases are simply information intent queries, they’re looking for an answer, they want to solve their problem themselves. They’re not at all interested in buying or becoming a lead event for anything. Other key phrases indicate strong commercial or transaction intent. They’ve got their wallet out there ready to go, they know they need help, they’ve given up on every other option they need, they need help, they’re raising their hand, they need a service. So I would always prioritise beginning your keyword research and content, content marketing and conversion, copywriting and SEO, with the bottom of the funnel. Start by targeting the key phrases that indicate the person really needs help. And those are generally going to be not content marketing; typically, they’re like service pages. Start by optimizing your homepage, as that’s the page for which you have the best chance of ranking. Next, optimize your service pages. Those pages have strong intent, the visitor is looking for help they know they need, they need a service or a product. The problem with using software and tools to do your keyword research for you is that they don’t really know or care what your audience is looking for. They don’t know you; they don’t know them. Sometimes, what you might think of as a blockbuster key phrase, like “Hey, we rank really high for this, you know, ‘What is the sales tax in this geography?’” Like, great, that person just wanted a quick answer. They’re never going to convert, they’re never going to convert! David: And is there a role for maybe interviewing or talking to real customers, or maybe even talking to your salespeople to get a view of the questions that real people ask, and how they kind of map to intent? Andy: The ultimate source of keywords is your audience. And there’s lots of ways to get that. One of them is, of course, talking to people. And if you get asked the same question two or three times you should be answering that question in your content. But when I do that – and when we all do that (and we all should) – search is not your primary concern. Because once you write this article, you can literally send it to exactly the person who asked you the question. Who needs Google? – you’re already talking to this person. So, what we should do is listen for the topics that our audience really, really cares about. Put plans in place to publish on those topics. And then as we’re publishing look for keyword opportunities. Some will have keyword opportunities; some will not have keyword opportunities. If you write the thing that your audience really loves and wants and you give it to them, but there wasn’t a keyword related to it, you can publish it an adjacent topic that does add the keyword that links to this great piece you made. But yes, I think empathy is the ultimate marketing skill. There’s other sources of empathy, such as if you have a site search tool, and people are searching for a phrase – that’s a source of empathy. And then sometimes, of course, the keyword research tools, and Google itself will tell you what people are looking for related to your topic or your industry works like a charm. David: Are there other opportunities or trends with search at the moment that are particularly relevant to B2B tech? Andy: Well, there’s a risk and a threat in search right now that we should all be aware of, which is, as I alluded to a minute ago, none of us should be targeting phrases for which there’s just a short, simple answer. The number of searches for which the click-through rate is zero keeps growing because Google gets more informative on its own platform. So we should all be looking for opportunities to write content that is yes, keyword focused, but also, the answer to the question the visitor is asking is deep and long with details, because Google’s search results are so informative. Click-through rates to websites are on the decline. So, target key phrases which give up the I. Remember years ago, we used to publish glossaries? Remember this SEO strategy? We’re like, “Oh, I’ll make a big glossary and answer, you know, tell everyone with the top…” No, that doesn’t work at all anymore. No traffic at all. So, target key phrases for which the best answer is very long and detailed and 2000 words and you can’t get it in a Featured Snippet. David: Any final tips for the audience of B2B tech marketers when they’re thinking about keyword research or optimising their content? While we have a world expert with us, the audience would be upset with me if I didn’t ask. Andy: The ultimate in the best advice is: when you’re publishing a piece of content related to a search, that you literally make a sincere attempt to create the best page on the internet for that topic. You’re not doing SEO if you’re not sincerely trying to make one of the top 10 pages on the internet. You have no right to rank if you made another medium-quality piece. But also, as you do this, don’t forget to inject your own voice; say something that’s provocative or counterintuitive. Inject it into this keyword-focused piece that’s going to touch on all the related topics and semantic SEO and subheads and detail, but put yourself in there and throw in some strong points of view. Search is, of course, library science. It’s an information retrieval technology. But your reader has a brain with an amygdala and can feel emotion. So if you want to be memorable, and not just a lovely Wikipedia for your industry, then don’t forget that some of the best results from digital come from differentiated voices, strong points of view, Op-Ed. You know, the counterintuitive prediction or perspective of voice. Put people into your articles and include contributor quotes from people with interesting ideas. Don’t just rank high, be interesting – and have fun. David: Andy, thank you so much. If the audience want to hear more from you, more of your points of view and your wisdom, where can they best find you? Andy: I write an article every two weeks at orbitmedia.com. So orbitmedia.com/blog is where you find the main source of my stuff. I put it all together into a book called Content Chemistry. And also LinkedIn would be my best social media platform. You can connect with me on LinkedIn. The blue button that says Follow? You can skip that and go down to Connect. You know how that works. But yeah, anyone’s welcome to reach out anytime. I’m happy to help however I can. David: Thanks, Andy. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard so much clear, valuable advice in just a few minutes. Ruth, you’re an experienced marketing leader, as well as a content marketing expert in your own right. You must have enjoyed that, right? Ruth: I thought it was great. I thought it was super helpful. And I think what really kind of my takeaway is: when you’re working in a niche tech sector, some of the more generic pieces of advice you get around keyword research just aren’t that helpful, because they don’t cut the mustard for the space you work in. But Andy got straight to the point of giving us some really helpful pointers as to how we could get started. One of the things I do think we should also mention, though, is first off Andy talks about both the fun and opportunity for those B2B marketers working in niche tech sectors. And truthfully everybody needs fun and opportunity in their role. So I thought that was a great starting point from Andy. David: Yeah, absolutely. And as a marketer yourself, do you find it difficult to know, kind of search terms, and use the research as a starting point for good content? Where do you go to? Ruth: That’s a great question, and I always start with the customer. Because I really believe that nothing interesting happens in the office. And what I mean by that is marketing teams need to get out there and speak to their customers, speak to their client-facing colleagues, to maybe sit in on meetings, go to trade shows with them, ask the Client Advisory Board, ask the user group, wherever you can get in front of customers, and get a real sense of how they talk about the challenges or pain points or issues that they face in to really understand the language that they use. I’m picking up on something that Andy mentioned, I also feel that those conversations and those bits of insights really give you the topics that your audience is passionate about and care about. And I think there’s a lot to be said, for producing really helpful content. And I think if you start by listening to what the customer has got to say, tap into the knowledge and insight of your client-facing teams, really unearth these topics that you can tell the audience care about, I really believe when you come to publication, just like Andy said, you can add in the keywords, you can make it a bit more SEO friendly during the publication stage, but it’s all got to start with some customer insight for me. David: Yeah, and I love that about going to trade shows! I was here like, the listener can’t see, but I was here with my hands in the air like preach, you know, like, just as a younger marketer and a younger copywriter, working on trade shows, even if I wasn’t doing the selling just supporting was so helpful, because I got to hear the conversations that were happening. And I suppose from that point of view, it’s not either/or, it’s both/and when you work in such a niche market. It’s using those conversations and what you can glean can help you understand where the search intent is in the keyword report and understand what the keyword report means. And then the other way around, the keyword report can help you understand the language that people are using to address the problems and the questions and the issues that you’ve heard them talk about, whether it’s on a trade show, or writing case studies is another one that I love, because you get to talk to a customer about their thing, and about their challenge and about their world. Like every case study makes me a better writer. Ruth: Definitely. And you know, David, I think what you’ve just said picks up on something Andy mentioned as well about every key phrase equals intent, and how you’ve got different key phrases at different stages of the customer journey. So, for example, if somebody’s right at the start of their customer journey, as content marketers, we tend to focus on producing what we call TOFU content. But this is the kind of content that needs to talk about pain points, challenges, questions – those are the kinds of things we need to be thinking of when we’re thinking about our key phrases and our keywords. If you’re producing middle-of-the-funnel content, rather, I think that’s when we need to see things that relate more to the solutions that somebody might be searching for. And then when you get to the bottom of the funnel, that’s where it could be more product focus keywords. So I think Andy made a really good point about thinking around this premise of every phrase equals intent. And those phrases change depending on where somebody is in their journey. David: I was interested in what Andy had to say about zero search queries and how that changes the nature of the content that people are producing. Is that something that you see? Ruth: Actually, I hadn’t really thought about this until I heard this in Andy’s advice. And that got me really thinking about that. And that’s something that I’m definitely going to go away and consider a bit more. David: Yeah, although AI might change it all, again. If, soon enough, ChatGPT gets pulled into Bing, if Google sorts out Bard, you know, you might have these chatbots answering the questions, instead of a list of search results, perhaps. Ruth: Yeah, that’s true. Actually hadn’t really thought about it from that context. So that’s really insightful. David: Anything else that stood out for you? Ruth: Yeah, one of the things Andy mentioned was about the idea of starting with the bottom-of-the-funnel content first, so bottom-of-the-funnel keyword research, content marketing to support the bottom-of-the-funnel stage. And I would always, always advocate this as a starting point because, ultimately, a very small number of your target audience are active in the market at any one point in time. And I think you need to be if you’re starting out on your content marketing strategy, or you’re revisiting your content marketing strategy, you will always want to prioritise the most commercial-focused activities first, in my opinion. I think it wins you friends with the sales team. I think it buys you goodwill from your superiors and your stakeholders to then move back up through the funnel to the different stages. So 100% agree with Andy’s point around starting with the bottom-of-the-funnel content first and then working out through the other layers. So you get, you know, to the top of the funnel. So yeah, 100% agree with that point. David: Absolutely. You know, I think when content marketing first became an approach, it was so new and so different, everyone almost kind of the product marketing almost became a dirty word. You know, because that wasn’t what content marketing was about. But, sometimes, the most helpful thing you can write is about your product for someone who’s at that stage of their buying journey. And absolutely, it needs to be included. Ruth: What do you think about the persona perspective, in this context, in the sense of Andy talks a lot about mapping it to different stages of the customer journey? But I also wonder if there’s a case for mapping it to different personas in your buying unit. So you know, for example, you might have a C-suite persona, but then you also might have an end-user persona. And I guess the same would be true, as the customer journey point too, you probably need to think about the personas that you’re writing for, and think about their journeys that they might go on. So your keywords might be different for the C-suite part of your DMU versus the kind of hands-on end-user DMU. Or are personas old hat, in your experience now? Have people moved on from them? David: I don’t know, I must admit, I kind of like an avatar more than a persona, for me. Ruth: Tell me a bit more about that. David: I’m fortunate in my career to have had enough lives and to have known enough people and enough clients and whatever, that for most sort of what you might call a persona for most job roles, challenges that people are facing, I can normally think of someone that sort of works in that job. So I can normally write to a person that I have in mind, rather than a persona. And it’s just a bit more, a bit more real. And it comes back to the point that you were making right at the beginning around getting out to trade shows and meeting people, you know. Doing case studies, interviews, whatever you can do to meet the customer because you might well meet people that map to those personas and makes that more three-dimensional for you. So you can get from a persona to an avatar. You’re like, “Oh, I’m not, I’m not writing for, you know, the CTO and the automotive sector. I’m writing for Janet.” Ruth: And I think when you give them a name, and you give them an identity that makes it even more real, and I guess if you can base it on somebody that you’ve actually met in a real-world situation, all the better. David: Before we finish up this episode, we do have a couple more things to share. First, we have this copywriting pro tip. Announcer: Copywriting pro tip. Fiorella Rizzà: Hi, I’m Fiorella Rizzà. I’m a Senior Content Designer. And my writing tip is if you need to read it twice, it’s not good enough. Ruth: Thanks, Fiorella. It sounds so simple, but it’s so, so effective. Before we go though, David, I gather you’re looking for some of the best pieces of B2B content ever. David: Yeah, that’s right. As I mentioned earlier, this is the 10th anniversary of the podcast. So, we thought we’d do something a bit unusual to celebrate. And we’ve set ourselves a challenge to find the best B2B content of all time. I mean, it could be a blog post, a video, ebook, white paper, who knows. But the first stage is: we need to compile a long list of contenders. So, listener, have a think about content that stuck with you, and please send us a nomination, anything you like on social media, or vote at radix-communications.com. Speaking of which, Ruth… Do you have a particular favourite you’d like to put forward for the list? Ruth: I do. You actually, so my favourite piece of content is Vital Stats by Earnest. This got shared with me many moons ago on a content marketing training course at the IDM. And they use this Vital Stats video as an example of a good piece of video content. But as the name suggests, it was also jam-packed with loads of really helpful information around how you could make the case for content marketing in your business. And I went back to the business I was in and I used all the stats in the Vital Stats video to make the case for introducing content marketing in my business at the time. And frankly, I haven’t looked back. So, when I went to work in earnest, I actually got to work on I think it was Vital Stats 3, and it was a proper fangirl moment for me, because I loved the first two iterations and now it was my job to help champion Vital Stats 3. So Vital Stats 1 by Earnest is one of my favourite pieces of content of all time. David: Amazing. I’m not sure I know it, I think I’ll go and look it up straight away. And we’ll absolutely link to it in the show notes so that the listener can have a have a look, get inspired and send us suggestions of their own as well. Thank you for that. Ruth, if the listener wants to get in touch with you and chat about content marketing. How can they do that? Ruth: Oh, you can find me on LinkedIn, drop me a message. I love to have a chat with anybody. Always happy to talk about content marketing and help out wherever I can. David: Thanks for co-hosting. Also, Ruth, you’re an absolute natural. I do hope you’ve enjoyed it. Ruth: I’ve had a lot of fun, thank you David for asking me. And I think whilst we’re at it, we should also thank Andy Crestodina for his wisdom and super helpful tips. And Fiorella Rizzà for that copywriting pro tip because that’s what I think we’ll all remember. And of course, we must thank Emily King for the question that kicked this whole episode off. David: Yeah, not to mention kicking off this very podcast. Emily, wherever you are listening. I hope you feel that we’ve done justice to your question. Remember listener, it could be your question that we answer in a future episode. Announcer: If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer, email a voice memo to podcast@radix-communications.com. Or find us on social media. David: I’ll see you next time for another B2BQ&A. Until then make great content and remember, Google can bring you back 100,000 answers. A librarian can bring you back the right one. I’ve never been shushed by Google though. At least not yet. The post B2BQ&A 110: How can you find the right SEO keywords for niche B2B content? appeared first on Radix.

After a longer than expected absence from the recording booth, the podcast is back, though not quite in the usual B2BQ&A format. In this episode, we’ve collected our favourite copywriting tips from the past few months. Imagine a compilation album called Now That’s What I Call Copywriting, featuring freelance writer Matt Binny, Giles Edwards from …Gasp!, Katherine Wildman from Haydn Grey, and copywriter Vikki Ross, as well as contributions from our own in-house writing team. You can read a full transcript of this episode at the bottom of this page. Three tips for great B2B copy… Keep it short A lot of our contributors stressed the importance of getting rid of unnecessary content. From deleting your first sentence to simply using fewer (and shorter) words, brevity is key. Giles from …Gasp! puts it this way: “If you can take a word out and nothing is lost, you should.” Stay on brief (and know your client) When writing copy, it can be easy to lose track of the brief. When he’s reading through a piece he’s written, Matt pretends he has no prior knowledge and asks himself three questions: “Does it tell me what I need to know? Would I buy it? Am I bored out of my mind?” And always make sure you are using the right tone of voice for the client. Keep the reader in mind Your copy may be intended for a wide audience, but it’s important to remember that you are only ever writing to one person at a time. Katherine puts it this way: “It’s a conversation between me, and what’s happening in my head, and the reader, and what’s happening in their head. It’s very intimate, and very privileged.” We’ll be back to a more traditional podcast format in the near future, but until then, thanks for listening. Here’s what you can expect in this episode… 0:30 – David explains why there hasn’t been a B2BQ&A podcast for a while 2:18 – Radix wordsmith, John, warns against ‘sesquipedalian loquaciousness’ 2:52 – Freelance writer, Matt Binny, squeezes four tips into one 3:27 – Giles from …Gasp! tells you to trim the fat 3:38 – Katherine from Haydn Grey suggests you get personal with your reader 4:20 – Matt Godfrey, head of copy at Radix, has his tip spoken by a computer 4:52 – Ben from Radix talks tone of voice 5:30 – Copywriter, Vikki Ross, asks if no copy is really the best copy 6:00 – Radix’s Claire keeps it short and sweet 6:25 – David wraps up Got a question? We’ll find the answer If you have any suggestions for future podcasts, just send us a voice memo at podcast@radix-communications.com. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom How to listen:  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As”) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player Credits: Thanks to all our contributors for their excellent tips, and a huge thank you to Matt, Giles, Katherine, and Vikki Thanks to Lisa Woodruff, Marketing Manager at Radix, for the work she does on the podcast behind the scenes And, thanks to Gareth at Bang and Smash audio, for making everything sound wonderful in your earholes Transcript: B2BQ&A 109.5: Best B2B copywriting tips David McGuire:  Hello listener, this is not an episode of B2BQ&A, and for that I can only apologise. It might have escaped your notice, but we have been somewhat less regular than usual with the podcast lately. I’m sorry about that. Things have been somewhat stretched, to say the least, for various reasons, some of them COVID related. But in short, we’ve had a lot to do with not very many people. So I’ve had to roll my sleeves up, get my back to the wheel, and all of those other cliches. But basically, I’ve had to put the podcast down for a minute and pitch in with the team. Rest assured we will get back to you as soon as we can with questions on corporate social responsibility, copywriting and how to do that without greenwashing, on writing with SEO keywords appropriately, and frankly, any other questions that you have for us, you can certainly still send them to podcast at radix hyphen communications.com. I do also have to say that I’m afraid we won’t be running the best content of the year polls this year.  There’s simply no time to get that done in anything like the high standard of quality that we’d like to for you. But hopefully we will run something else along those lines for you soon. So in the meantime, just because I feel bad that we haven’t put any advice and information in your earholes lately, we do have this collection of tips and highlights from guests over the past few months of the show. And I hope that you will find that useful. John Kerrison: I’m John Kerrison, and I’m a Senior Copywriter at Radix Communications. My copywriting tip is to limit your vocabulary. That sounds like the opposite of what a writer should do. But often you’ll see people who are just starting out try and flex their inner thesaurus and pepper their copy with words you’d never use in conversation. It’s important to remember that your job isn’t to show off, it’s to make things really clear and engaging for your reader. So as an example, instead of saying my work suffers from sesquipedalian loquaciousness, you can just say I use too many long words. Matt Binny: Hi Matt Binny here, freelance writer from Falmouth in Cornwall. My copywriting tips are as follows. When I finish writing, I like to let it rest for a while or go make lunch, a cup of tea, probably then another cup of tea, then return with fresh eyes and proof. Always read copy out loud. [It’s] a very common tip for a reason: it’s very, very effective. I also like to re-read copy as if I was someone with sort of no knowledge on the topic, or the product, or service, and ask a few questions: Does it tell me what I need to know? Would I buy it? Am I bored out of my mind? is always a good one too. Giles Edwards: Hello, it’s Giles from …Gasp! My tip is: trim the fat. If you can take a word out and nothing is lost, you should. Katherine Wildman: Hello, this is Katherine from Haydn Grey, and my favourite short copywriting tip is to remember that you’re only ever writing to one person at a time. So it’s never about the collective all of us, some of you, nothing like that. It’s a conversation between me, and what’s happening in my head, and the reader, and what’s happening in their head. One-to-one, very intimate, very privileged. So only ever write to that one person. Thanks for having me. Katy: Radix’s head of copy, Matt Godfrey, is far too shy to record his actual voice, so we had to get a computer to read his tip for him. RoboMatt: When you’ve finished writing a piece, delete your first sentence. Too much B2B content opens with unnecessary exposition, especially considering we’re typically writing for an expert audience. So, by deleting your first sentence, or even your first paragraph, there’s a good chance you’ll have a much stronger opening that will hook readers in, rather than telling them stuff they already know. Ben: My name is Ben and I’m a Copywriter at Radix. For my copywriting tip of the month, I’m going to steal a piece of advice I learned from Fiona when I first joined the company. Every time you switch the brand you’re writing for, just take 15 minutes to read some of their work, even if you’re already familiar with them. It could be a few blog posts, emails, or even an ebook. It will help you really capture their tone and voice, and get you in the right headspace for approaching the task at hand. It’s especially useful if you’re writing for multiple brands a day. Vikki Ross: Hello, my name is Vikki Ross, and I’m a copywriter. One of my favourite copywriting tips is something David Abbott once said. He was one of the best copywriters in the world, so he knew what he was talking about. He said, “Sometimes the best copy is no copy.” I say that’s absolutely true, that sometimes you need a copywriter to say so. I hope that helps you when you’re writing, or when you’re telling someone why you don’t need to write anything. Claire: Hi, I’m Claire, a Junior Copywriter at Radix, and my favourite copywriting tip is to use fewer words. Read over your sentences and ask yourself, can I say the same thing in less words? The chances are that, if you can, it will make your writing clearer, more readable, and more concise. David: And there you have it: a roundup of advice and information. I hope that’s helpful for you until we can get back with the other podcast proper. Obviously, I’d like to thank everybody that contributed to that, once again. You’re all wonderful. And I’d like to thank Lisa Woodruff, who’s the Marketing Manager here at Radix. And does so much for the podcast behind the scenes. And Gareth at Bang and Smash Audio, who is very much the unsung hero, making all of this sound vaguely audible and make sense. So thanks to them. And thanks to you for listening and for bearing with us while we get back to you with a proper podcast sometime in the near future. The post B2BQ&A 109.5: Copywriters share their top tips for writing B2B content appeared first on Radix.

In an ideal world, a B2B copywriter can read your mind and conjure up the most perfect piece of content you could ever dream of. But here in the real world, there’s briefing to be done. And in this episode we answer a question from freelance B2B writer (not to mention Radix founder, and original host of this here podcast) Fiona Campbell-Howes, about what happens when briefings go wrong: “We hear lots on social media about what writers find frustrating about their clients. But I’d be really intrigued to hear things from the client side: what do marketers find frustrating about writers that they work with? And what can we do to make things better for them?” We put Fiona’s question to Sally Adam, Marketing Director at the cybersecurity company Sophos. And, as you’ll hear, she gave us a brilliant and unflinchingly honest answer. Plus, four anonymous B2B marketers each get their own personal copywriter gripes off their assorted chests. Also in this episode, Ettie Bailey-King joins us for the final instalment of her inclusive writing advice, and Vikki Ross shares a classic pro tip from copywriting legend David Abbott. And to help us navigate it all, we get fabulous insights and lots of laughs from our guest co-host Harendra “Harry” Kapur (whom you can also find on Twitter here). You can read a full transcript of this episode at the bottom of this page. How can copywriters make life better for B2B marketers? Let’s be clear: Sally considers copywriters to be “hugely, hugely valuable”. But that doesn’t mean we can rest on our laurels. Writers can often give marketers a frustrating time – and usually, it’s when we forget the basics: Actually listen to the customer Copywriters are full of knowledge, enthusiasm, and good ideas – and usually that’s a good thing. But if it means you start to make assumptions about the brief, or you’re too keen to show off what you know, that can cause issues. “The copywriter goes off and puts a load of effort in,” says Sally. “And you’re excitedly waiting for the piece because you’ve got a deadline. But when it comes back, they’re not matching up.” Check our creative ideas Often, a copywriter has creative ideas that go beyond the brief. And that can be great. But if you try to spring surprises on the marketer, that can be as bad as not listening in the first place. Instead, a quick call or email can confirm you’re on the right track. “Do check in,” Sally explains. “Sometimes the answer is ‘No, that’s not relevant here,’ and sometimes it’s ‘Wow, brilliant connection; I hadn’t thought of that myself.’ But as someone who’s doing the briefing, you’d much rather have someone ask that question than go to all the effort of creating a piece that misses the mark.” Brush up our soft skills If the brief involves interviewing a customer or senior leader, the writer’s behaviour reflects strongly on the marketer. And impressions really matter. “I’m putting you in the hands of a valued customer, whose business we really value,” Sally says. “You’re representing me. We can work on the actual copy that comes back, but the experience the interviewee has with the copywriter is not going to change. That can make or break relationships and have a wider business impact.” We’ve packed a lot into this episode. Here’s where to find it all… 0:59 – Meet the hosts: David McGuire and Harendra Kapur 2:44 – Vikki Ross shares her favourite copywriting tip 3:39 – Radix founder Fiona Campbell-Howes asks this month’s question… 4:39 – …And Sally Adam answers it 15:09 – Harry and David discuss [checks notes] …the Kama Sutra? 21:08 – Four anonymous marketers share their pet copywriting hates 29:58 – Ettie Bailey-King talks person-first and identity-first language All it takes is a little voice memo To have your burning B2B question naswered, just send us a voice memo at podcast@radix-communications.com. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom. How to listen:  You can download the episode here. (Right-click and select “Save As”.) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts. Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player. Credits Thanks, Fiona Campbell-Howes, for the question (and, you know, everything). And thanks to Sally Adam, for answering it in such an honest and insightful way. Thanks too to our four anonymous marketers. Chickens. We’re grateful to Vikki Ross for the pro tip, and especially Ettie Bailey-King for all your inclusive writing advice over the last six months. Cheers, Harry Kapur, for being an excellent co-host. Come back anytime. And thank you, for listening. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash. Transcript: B2BQ&A 109: What’s the worst thing about briefing a B2B copywriter? Fiona Campbell-Howes: What do marketers find frustrating about writers that they work with, and what can we do to make things better for them? Harendra “Harry” Kapur: Oh, can’t wait to get into this one. Let’s ask Sally Adam from Sophos. David McGuire: Hello listener; you are excessively welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search for an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 109. Harry: In a few moments, we’re going to hear from Sally Adam, content and marketing leader at Sophos, as well as a few other B2B marketers. And they’re going to be telling us about the most annoying thing about briefing a copywriter, and what we can do about it. We’re also going to hear a copywriting pro tip from Vikki Ross, so good for you. And we will get some inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey-King. David: Before all of that though, who the hell are we? Well, I’m David McGuire, Creative Director at Radix Communications, the B2B tech writing agency. And our guest co-host for this episode is a B2B tech writer, consultant, speaker, all round agent of chaos, Harendra Kapur. Harry, welcome. Harry: Hey man, thanks for having me on. David: Hey, how you doing? For the listeners who don’t know, you were Head of Copy at Velocity, and doing your own thing now, right? Harry: Yeah, just freelancing my little butt round town. That’s kind of what I’ve been up to. And, yeah, it’s gone much better than I thought. Because it’s like, leaving a successful agency with this fancy title and stuff in the middle of a pandemic, maybe recession type of deal. When I did it, it just felt like… David: Perfectly sensible. Harry: Yeah, like this could go horribly wrong. And it hasn’t. And I’m very grateful for that. So yeah. David: I’m glad to hear it’s going well. Couldn’t happen to a nicer chap. But before we get on with this serious business of answering the question for the episode, would you mind doing your first duty as co-host and telling the listener how they can get in touch with us? Harry: Yeah sure. So listener, if you have comments or suggestions you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter @Radixcom. But if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, then record a quick little voice note and send it by email: podcast@radix-communications.com. David: That’s perfect, thank you very much. Vikki: Hello, my name is Vikki Ross, and I’m a copywriter. One of my favourite copywriting tips is something David Abbott once said. He was one of the best copywriters in the world, so he knew what he was talking about. He said, “sometimes the best copy is no copy”. I say, that’s absolutely true, that sometimes you need a copywriter to say so. I hope that helps you when you’re writing, or when you’re telling someone why you don’t need to write anything. Harry: Love that from Vikki. So much of the best stuff a copywriter does on any kind of project is wordless and invisible and choosing not to do something. And so it’s really good of her to call that out because so much of this is about restraint even. But anyway, let’s get to the Q&A part of B2BQ&A. We’ll start with a very familiar voice. Fiona: Hi, Radix. It’s Fiona Campbell-Howes here, freelance B2B tech content writer. So, we hear lots on social media about what writers find frustrating about their clients. But I’d be really intrigued to hear things from the client side. What do marketers find frustrating about writers that they work with? And what can we do to make things better for them? David: Hello, Fiona, how lovely to have your voice back on the show. Listener, in case you’re new around these parts, Fiona actually founded Radix and used to co-host this very podcast. And as you’d expect from Fiona, this is such a good question. The only issue is who’d be bold enough to talk to a copywriter about the most annoying things that copywriters do? Well, actually more people than you might think. To start with, I spoke with Sally Adam, who’s content and product marketing leader at the cybersecurity company Sophos, and I asked her Fiona’s question, what do you find the most frustrating thing when you’re briefing a copywriter? Sally: I think the most annoying thing is when the copywriter doesn’t listen to what you are looking to achieve with the piece. Usually, you’ve got a lot of goals, or the things you want to do with it. And sometimes you can see the copywriter isn’t really listening and when the piece comes back, you can see it’s a case of, “okay, I had this thing that I knew on this topic that I wanted to write about. And I’ve just written what I wanted to say on this topic rather than what we needed to achieve with this particular piece of work”. David: Why do you think it is a copywriter would do that? Are they just trying to kind of add value, ironically? Or are they trying to kind of show off how much they know? Or do they think they know better than you? Sally: I think it’s probably a bit of all of those. Often when you’ve been writing on a topic for a while you build up your own knowledge, your own experience of the topic, and suddenly your mind runs away. And you’re thinking, “okay, actually, I’ve got some experience here. I’ve already done this, I feel comfortable writing about this particular element because I’ve done it before”. And so there’s a bit of a case of, “okay, this is an area where I’ve got some expertise that I can bring in, or I enjoy writing about that”. But also, I do think there’s a piece of, “okay, this could be helpful, or I can use my knowledge here to extend the piece”. And sometimes that’s great. What is wonderful with a copywriter is when they’re joining together the different briefs you’ve done over a period of time, and they’re linking up and thinking, “okay, well, we actually did this piece. And that ties in with something she’s mentioned, let me ask her if it’s worth us joining these together, or should I reference them”. And I love that, when people are piecing the puzzle together and helping extend the story and connect elements. The challenge is when there isn’t the check. And the copywriter goes off and puts a load of effort in and you’re excitedly waiting for the piece because you’ve got a deadline. And when it comes back, they’re not matching up. David: So the thing there that the copywriters should be doing, but they’re not doing is to check with you. Is that really what you’d like you’d like to happen in that situation? Sally: Absolutely, yeah. So, play back the brief. And I try and do that myself when I’m getting tasks at work is, play back and make sure I’ve understood correctly what we’re being asked for. But, and also, as you have other ideas, if you have thoughts of connections, or ways it could go, do check in. As someone who’s doing the briefing, you’d much rather have someone ask that question and say, “is this something we can join in together?” Then them go to all the effort and the time of creating a piece that then is missing the mark. David: And sometimes I guess people don’t feel like they’re allowed, because they know that you’re busy or whatever. But I suppose in the long run, that will save you time. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. And I think for us who are briefing, we need to make sure that we give the copywriter the time, we give them those opportunities to ask the questions, because otherwise, we’re putting them in an impossible situation. So yeah, very much there’s a responsibility on the briefer to support and enable and to allow the person – and to help them also feel good about asking the questions. Sometimes the answer is “no, that’s not relevant here”. And sometimes it’s “wow, brilliant connection. I hadn’t thought of that myself.” But as with all things, it’s fine to ask the question, and we need to make sure that the copywriter feels comfortable, and isn’t going to be made to feel stupid or anything for asking that question. David: So do you then find things tend to go better where it’s a written brief, or if it’s a briefing call, or a combination of the two? How do you prefer to work and which gives the most opportunity for that clarification? Sally: I think both are good. And quite often, it’s good to do both together. So maybe start with a written brief so the copywriter gets a chance to think with a little bit of calm and to maybe formulate some questions that they want to ask, and some initial ideas. And also then give something for everybody to go back to when you’re just wanting to refresh yourself when you’ve been doing a different job, and writing about a different topic. But having the opportunity to speak and explore in person, and I think explain perhaps in a bit more detail than you would do in an email is also really helpful. But also you have to ask the copywriter what would they prefer because I suspect different copywriters prefer different approaches. Some may prefer to just start with the conversation, some may want to have a really detailed written brief. David: Can I ask about the amends process, when a piece may be hasn’t hit the mark? Is that something where when you go back with that feedback, do copywriters kind of get defensive at all, or is it kind of alright for them to sort of push back if you or stakeholders have suggested changes? Sally: I think it’s probably true for copywriting as much as any other job. If somebody is giving you quality feedback that they’ve properly taken the time to consider and to convey back then it is a gift to take. Now, there’s sometimes feedback that is just a personal opinion. And I think we need to make clear when we’re giving feedback if something is a personal opinion, or if it’s just experience, or if it’s a factual thing. And then maybe sometimes as a copywriter, you’ve got expertise. Certainly, I’m sure every copywriter’s grammar is better than mine. And so do push back, if it’s an area where you feel you are the expert. But generally, if it’s good and quality, considered feedback, then hopefully it’s something that can help with the final piece. And probably the longer that you work with an organization, the better you’ll get to know them. You’ll be able to get to know their style, and the type of topics that they cover, and the approach they’re looking for. So in my experience, the longer we work together, the fewer the amends as we go on. David: Do you find yourself sometimes sort of stuck in the middle between a copywriter and a stakeholder, or stuck between a copywriter and a subject matter expert who are sort of at loggerheads. Sometimes I kind of feel for the marketer being stuck in the middle there. What’s that like? Sally: That’s where you have to say, “okay, my job, my expertise is to be the person in the middle and to be the person who is representing the audience we want to reach”. And that’s the hat I need to wear, “what is going to resonate with the audience?” And that’s where I can add value between the subject matter expert and the copywriter is going “okay, great. You’ve both got really informed and interesting positions here. But let me play the role of the audience”. And that’s my part in the process, that’s the value that I bring. David: How can a copywriter best help you at that stage of the process? Sally: Perhaps through explaining why they’ve done something in a particular way. If there’s a stakeholder and in our case, quite often a very technical stakeholder, who is saying something, it can be really valuable to have the outsider in terms of the copywriter, share their opinion: “I don’t know that term, that is not something that is commonly understood, that is really valuable feedback,” or “the reason I structured this particular part in this way is because of ABC”. So yeah, explaining their reasoning because there’s a lot of skill and thought and expertise that goes behind those words. And that also helps communicate and convert to the subject matter expert. David: So, comments in the margins, that kind of thing that will kind of help you and kind of inform that conversation. Is there anything else that you finally wish that, while you have the ear of copywriters, is there anything else you wish they did differently? Sally: So copywriters are hugely, hugely valuable. They create wonderful pieces, they turn thoughts and ramblings into coherent stories that really help get across what we’re about. So great copywriters are fabulous. I think the final thing I’d sort of say is that when we’re briefing a copywriter, particularly for an interview situation, where it’s going to be interviewing, perhaps colleagues, perhaps its customers, perhaps it’s other people in the wider industry, you’re representing me. I’m putting you in front of senior leaders in my organisation, I’m putting you in the hands of my customer, whose business we really value and whose business we really wish to maintain. You are the representation of me. And I know that is widely understood. But I think it’s probably worth emphasising because I think that’s probably the nervousness from my side, more than anything else. The actual copy that comes back, we can work on that. But the experience that the interviewee has with the copywriter, that’s not going to change. That’s the impression that they’re going to walk away with. And that is, therefore, probably the thing that is most important, because that’s going to make or break other relationships and perhaps will have a wider business impact. So I’d say just bear in mind you’re representing the person who briefs you, you’re representing their organisation as well. So we’re placing a huge amount of trust in you. And it’s almost always repaid 100-fold, but you are being entrusted with our perspectives and our representation. David: Thanks, Sally. That is a really helpful and balanced response. And there’s loads of practical input for all the copywriters listening. Harry, I know you’ve got to have some views on this. So what stood out for you there? Harry: Well, I mean, having managed writers in my life, I know how annoying we can be. But I think Sally’s definitely clocked the most annoying thing about briefing copywriters. And it’s really, when you just don’t listen. I’ve been this guy more times than I’d care to admit. And I think generally speaking, when a copywriter’s going into a briefing, it’s a moment of high excitement for them on multiple different levels. You might be really nervous about, “I don’t want to say something stupid in front of the smart person”. Or you might be like, “I’m really excited to talk about this brief, because I’ve got some ideas that I want to pitch the client that would fit this brief, and I can’t wait to tell him or whatever”. And actually, I think, really, the important thing, and you just learn this over the years from doing it time after time, is just put all that stuff aside, and just go into the room, and listen, and just sit there and be a dummy. The other ones in the room is by definition smarter than you. That’s why they’re briefing you, because they know more than you do. And so just like let it in, hear it the way they’re saying it, don’t hear it the way you wish it was. These are all obviously really hard things to do. And you get better at doing them over time. But I think, really, the big thing is just, enjoy being the dummy. Just chill. Just ask your stupid clarifying question or, test, “I thought this would be a good thing that we could do.” Just say the things that you need to say, because I think, if you spend 20 minutes really doing someone that courtesy of listening to them, they’ll listen back. They’ll be happy to talk to you about the thing. It’s a lot easier that way. But it can be hard and definitely the most annoying thing I think that copywriters can do. David: Yeah, I mean, I think Katherine Wildman, I think in a previous episode was kind of – shared a tip about intelligent naivety. Which I think is great – actually pretending you’re dumber than you are. Just to be that blank canvas, to represent the audience. Harry: Yeah, exactly. David: Which is a really tricky thing to do, particularly in an area like ours, where you’re aware that they’ve hired a specialist B2B writer or a specialist B2B tech writer for a reason. Because they don’t want to have to go right back to zero and so you kind of want to show that you know the area and that there’s a real balance there because you don’t want to cross pollute with too many of your own ideas. Harry: Exactly. David: There’s that idea from the – is it from the Kama Sutra? – of the beginner’s mind. I think it applies here. The stuff from your old partners should not colour the stuff with your new partners. I think it’s the same with clients a little bit. Harry: You’ve got to do a thread on what B2B marketers can learn from the Kama Sutra. Make that happen! David: You haven’t heard my ebook about that? That’s a whole different podcast series. Harry: I think really the challenging thing, I think that – in an ideal world, the client and the copywriter, and really any other creative representative involved in the briefing, you’re all trying to shape something together, that fits obviously the client’s vision of reality, and what will pan out and all that stuff, but then also all your own little weird, artistic, “this is a good way to say that”, or whatever your thing might be. And you’re trying to get to that place where you’re shaping it together. And I think ground zero and that is that when the other person’s briefing you, you hear what they’re saying, even if it isn’t in the words they’re saying. You’re really trying to understand the intent behind the briefing as well. And so listening, it’s not just sitting there thinking nothing. It’s really paying close attention to what they mean, and what they’re prioritising and all this invisible in-between-the-line stuff, all the good stuff. David: And being that – Sally was saying that she’s the avatar kind of for the audience, for the reader. That’s really important. All the time, sitting in their seat. It’s so important. Harry: Correct. Yeah. And there’s obviously at the end of the spectrum, there’s another kind of like, weird little issue that comes up. Which is you can know a client so well, that you have an amazing shorthand with them. And you have these awesome fluid four minute briefing sessions where they just go, “ebook, top of funnel, difficult,” and you go, “I know what you mean”. And you go ahead and make this thing, and it’s that thing of the avatar for the customer or the prospect, I think is – so much of that is that they don’t have any other context. They don’t know what you’re talking about. They have no – they don’t know where this company is coming from, where the stuff that they’re preaching is coming from, where the best practice advice is coming from, any of that stuff. And so you do have to – you need to be able to both go down to zero and think about it like a smart prospect would be thinking about it, and how they would be approaching it. David: Absolutely. Sally’s not actually the only person to have answered this question for us. I think we alluded to this earlier. I got a whole bunch of – Sally was the only one that was brave enough to put a name on it – but I did get a whole bunch of anonymous responses as well. It seems there’s actually quite a lot that annoys marketers about copywriters. So we picked the best few. We’ll play those in and you can tell me what you think just off the top of your head. Okay? Harry: Cool. Anonymous marketer #1: I wish B2B copywriters understood that people in B2B are still people. They may not be in their primary role as a consumer when they are reading the copy you’ve written, but we can talk to them as if they are. They’re still humans. They don’t need dozens of fluffy buzzwords to understand a concept or engage with your content. Without dumbing it down or doing your content a disservice, write as a human to another human in a conversational and human way. Harry: That’s hard to argue with. I mean, I do feel sure that we can be more annoying than that. We can be worse than that. There’s worse things copywriters do. David: You don’t think that’s the worst thing? Harry: No, no. David: Okay, this is the top four. Harry: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we need a good top three. We need to burn this into people’s back’s or something. David: The thing that’s interesting about this is a – it’s like a B2B tech writer that’s gone native, right? I think every B2B tech writer comes into it, trying to weed out the buzzwords and trying to get away from that stuff. And probably at the end, just the whole career of having to get things signed off. In the end, they just assume that they have to write that way. I think there’s a switch that gets flicked. Harry: No, definitely, definitely. It’s kind of like an ocean, right? It’s like the national gravity in the space is that – and this is the uncomfortable thing. If you want to efficiently work with many different clients in B2B, actually, the consequence of that might be that there’s a whole lot of buzzword nonsense in your thing, because you just split writing. Your audience is the marketing department paying your bills, and that’s kind of the extent of it. But no, writing for humans, definitely good. I’d love to see a B2B company try to talk to people as if they were cats. I don’t know. I don’t know. Maybe – imagine if that works. Imagine if that’s amazing! David: B2B catnip. You heard it here first. Okay, the next one. Anonymous marketer #2: My pet hate is briefing an agency that then subs out copywriting to someone who wasn’t in the room. Harry: Oh, okay, okay, now we’re talking. Now we’re getting into some really good stuff. Because I’d like to say this first as like a very small point of defence on behalf of agencies. Because I’ve been in that situation, I’ve been in every version of that situation. I’ve been the guy outside the room, I’ve been the guy telling the guy inside the room to give it to the guy outside. I’ve been through all permutations of this. And it can work. I’ve seen this work. There are times when there’s someone who’s outside the room, who you’ve never spoken to, and you didn’t expect them to work on it, and then they do something and it blows your mind. That can happen. And I think actually a lot of the magic you’re paying for with an agency is that possibility that that could happen. Now that said, this is the worst thing. I hate this one. It’s so irritating, it’s so frustrating to – especially I think when clients really do the agency the kind of courtesy of bringing their best self to the briefing. They’re prepared, they’ve thought about the session, “I’ll explain this, then I’ll explain this and he’ll get it,” you know, whatever. They’ve really thought about doing the briefing well, and then they do the briefing, and then it’s some random who didn’t even clock all the important stuff they we’re talking about in the brief. That’s the worst, it’s so annoying. So really hard. David: I love it. The worst thing about briefing a copywriter is when the copywriter is not there. Harry: Yeah! What’s the point of that? Anonymous marketer #3: When the individual hasn’t understood the client’s tone or style of writing and so returns with the monotone or “off-voice” style. Take more time to review the client’s historic style and tone please. Harry: Yeah, that’s just basics man. That’s the – it’s basics and you’d hope that every copywriter’s doing this kind of a thing, but I think it’s really good to hear this from the horse’s mouth, from the mouth of someone who’s annoyed and irritated by it. Because I think, especially with younger writers, I think there’s a part of us that believes that this client doesn’t know what they want. “Once I make this thing, they’ll understand how good it is like, they’ll see it in the finished product, I’ll blow their mind and it’ll be amazing”. And I think that’s an important part of you to keep, you should always be trying to do that for the client. But really the first audience you need to know, we talked about knowing your audience and stuff, the first audience you have to know is the dude or lady who at 6:17pm on a Friday is saying to her office friends, “no, you guys go to the pub, I’ll catch up with you later,” or whatever. “I’m going to open this document that the stranger has sent me. And I’m just really desperately hoping that what’s in this document isn’t professionally embarrassing to me. It just a little looks like it’s coming from someone who doesn’t know what the hell they’re talking about,” or whatever. And that’s the first hurdle you have to clear as a copywriter. That’s the first person you’ve got to be empathetic to I think, definitely on the B2B side, but I think that’s true on the B2C side as well. Maybe a lot more deferential out there. It’s really annoying. You need to know how the person you’re working for wants to represent themselves and no idea you have is more important than that. And that’s the first hurdle you have to clear as a copywriter. That’s the first person you’ve got to be empathetic to I think, definitely on the B2B side, but I think that’s true on the B2C side as well. Maybe a lot more deferential out there. It’s really annoying. You need to know how the person you’re working for wants to represent themselves and no idea you have is more important than that. Anonymous marketer #4: I have experienced two recurring issues. One: not being able to speak the language of the target audience or decision makers. We had a Gen Z copywriter who was writing content directed at senior C suite executives, 50-60-year-old mostly male individuals. This doesn’t necessarily mean jargon but definitely some corporate terminology that CHR or CFOs would relate with: increase revenue, decrease costs in some way or the other. We had to go through a few rounds and I had to describe our audience in detail for them to do a good job to the whole features instead of benefits angle. Quite a few times content and copy would be about what we provide rather than intelligently talking about the value add and when this was explained most copy was a direct “here are five benefits of ….”, which in my opinion doesn’t really work. Harry: That sucks. If you keep coming across that’s awful, that’s really bad. I mean, I guess, obviously, all that tells me is that like the most annoying thing is bad copywriting. Nothing beats bad copywriting. David: I think there’s an element of this and it’s maybe something we should talk about on the show that I know that Leif Kendall at Pro Copywriters has for a while been talking about the idea of “do we need some kind of accreditation for copywriters?” Because at the moment anyone can stick a shingle outside their door and say “I’m a copywriter.” And the more people who do that, who don’t really embrace the craft, the more it undermines the rest of us. Harry: Yeah, I think so. I mean, it’s a weird one as well, because at least in the years I’ve been doing this… Over the years, you sort of tried to collect as many absolute truths about the craft as you can. And I’ve got an empty bag. I can never find anything that pervades all industries and all contacts and all situations, because B2B, we don’t hang out because we like talking to companies, we hang out because we don’t sell shampoo. We’re united by what we don’t do. And that’s about the extent of it, like a service company and a SAS company. It’s fundamentally different business models, and the way they approach markets are going to become completely different, the way they talk to people is going to be different. And so it’s hard, but it is a little frustrating when someone has worked with seven bad copywriters in a row and then they go “ah, marketing doesn’t work” or whatever. And it’s like, “no, you hired bad people.” And I don’t know how to convince them of that. I don’t know how to demonstrate that to someone. Maybe accreditations would be good. But yeah, maybe it’s good that Leif’s talking about this because I really couldn’t think of many people who would take on something like that, but maybe Leif’s the guy though. David: Yep, absolutely. Leif, the ball’s in your court. You make it happen and we will support you. Harry: Good luck dude! David: Okay, it is almost time for us to wrap up. But first we do have our final inclusive writing tip from Ettie Bailey-King. Ettie Bailey-King:  You’ve probably heard people talking about person-first language or identity-first language. So what does this mean? Person-first language would put somebody’s name first. And they might say “Ettie has depression.” That’s person-first language because the person’s name, or perhaps the pronoun talking about them comes first. You might say “she has depression”. And person-first language is really popular with a wide range of identities, and often marginalised experiences. In many cases, we want to be referred to using person-first language because it puts the person back in the frame. I’m not defined by my depression, I’m still a real person with a full and rich identity separate from that. But many people actually want identity-first language. So what does identity-first language look like? Well, that might look like saying, “I’m autistic,” “I’m schizophrenic,” “she’s disabled”. And in some cases, that community of people really, really wants to use identity-first language. It’s really important that we find out what people’s preferences are. So in the example of autism, many, many autistic people say that they really want their autism to be considered part and parcel of who they are. It is not a separate trivial detail of their identity. It’s absolutely integral. And that’s why many autistic people will really, really want that language to be used. And if we don’t respect that wish, then were really undermining their right to express themselves and to be taken seriously given their identity. So what’s the lesson that we can draw from this? Well, unfortunately, there isn’t one simple tip as to whether you should always use person first or always use identity first. Brings us back to tip number one, which is that you must always ask. If you’re looking for a rough rule of thumb, it’s typically the case that identity-first language is popular with people who have physical, motor and sensory disabilities. So for example, many deaf people want to say “I am deaf”, they won’t say “I am a person with deafness”. So you can keep in mind that frequently identity-first language is popular with certain physical motor and sensory disabilities. But you always need to check. David: That’s actually the last in the series of these tips. Etiie, we are really grateful to you for sending them in. They’ve been so practical and thought provoking over these last few months. And listen, if you want more information on inclusive and anti-oppressive language, you can find Ettie at fightingtalk.uk or on Twitter @ettiebk. Harry: And of course, we also want to thank Fiona Campbell-Howes for asking the question that kicked this whole thing off. We hope you feel like you were satisfied by the answers that we came across, that we did surface the annoying things about briefing copywriters. And so, of course, we would really like to thank Sally Adam from Sophos for such an honest, thought provoking, good, correct answer, I think, to a difficult question – we appreciate that. And obviously, thank you to everyone who anonymously sent in their comments. And, of course, the great Vikki Ross, for her pro tip. David: Thank you, Vikki. And thank you, Harry, you have been a fabulous guest co-host once again. I hope you’ll come back again? Harry: Oh, it’s been my pleasure. I would absolutely love to. David: Awesome. We’ll look forward to that. In the meantime, if the listener wants to get in touch with you and find out more about the wonderful world of Harry Kapur, where can they do that? Harry: You can reach me, the quickest way to reach me is probably on my Twitter, which is @rupees1hundred, probably easier to just search my name. But also if you want to work with me, then probably best to find me on LinkedIn. David: Great, and we’ll put a link in the show notes as well. Remember listener, it could be your question we answer in a future episode. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer email, a voice memo to podcast@radix-communications.com. Or find us on social media. I’ll see you next time for another B2BQ&A. Until then make good content and remember, one day you will die but the content you publish will live forever. Thanks a bunch, Google. Harry and David: Goodbye!   The post B2BQ&A 109: What’s the worst thing about briefing a B2B copywriter? appeared first on Radix.

This month, we answer a question that haunts any B2B content writer who’s ever argued about whether their copy needs to match what a client or stakeholder learned at school: how much do we really need to follow the “rules” of grammar? Andy Bacon says: “The question I’ve got for you is whether grammar is important in copywriting. So, for example, may we start a sentence with ‘and’?” As anyone who’s been near social media will tell you, this debate gets pretty heated. So to answer the question, we found someone with experience on both sides. Rishi Dastidar is both a poet and head of brand language at Brandpie – so he understands the creative potential of breaking the rules, and the reasons why a brand might want to preserve them. This month’s co-host, Irene Triendl, also shares her perspective as a B2B copywriter, strategist, and bilingual writer working in a language she had to learn. As always, we also bring you a copywriting tip of the month. We hear from John Kerrison, a Senior Copywriter here at Radix. And he’s going to convince you to get rid of your thesaurus once and for all. And finally, as it’s episode 101, we thought it would be fun to find our what B2B buzzword you wanted banish to Room 101… and you definitely didn’t hold back! Thanks to everyone who joined in the debate, whether on Propolis or LinkedIn: Steve Kemish, Amanda Holmes, Natalie Boon, Skip Fidura, Nigel Graber, Ray Philpott, Robert Joy, Anja Jones, Colin Gentry, Mark Brighton, Katy Young, Nic Simpson, Anna S, Ben Rotheray, Julian Tintinger, and everyone else! It was tough to narrow it down to just one word, but thankfully that was Irene’s job, not ours. You’ll find a full transcript of this month’s episode at the end of this post. So, how important is correct grammar in B2B content, really? As Rishi so excellently puts it, correct grammar “is as important as what your brand image and positioning determines it to be”. If your brand needs to be perceived as traditional or detail focused, that might be pretty important. If you want to be seen as a rulebreaker, the opposite could be true. For example, if you’re in the business of nuclear safety, then following the rules of grammar as closely as possible could be seen to reflect the care with which you follow safety measures when dealing with critical situations. If, on the other hand, your business doesn’t face such life-and-death situations, then you have a lot more wiggle room to use grammar how you want to use it. You can get a bit creative if it makes sense for you to do so (provided your meaning is still clear). Once and for all… is it OK to start a sentence with “and” or “but”? There’s also the question of whether the perceived rules are really roles at all. The example Andy gives in his question, starting a sentence with a conjunction, is not so much a rule, as a perception of a rule. Merriam-Webster has even weighs in on the debate, stating: “Everybody agrees that it’s all right to begin a sentence with and, and nearly everybody admits to having been taught at some past time that the practice was wrong.” As Rishi says: “Grammar is, effectively, the system and frameworks that allow us to understand. And they, like the content that they support, are subject to flux and change – like language itself. So the fundamental question that you are asking is are the structures that I am putting my language into functioning to aid understanding? That’s your starting point.” So as long as your writing has clarity, as long as your audience can fully understand the points you’re making, then the rest is down to your brand persona – or your own personal taste. And as far as I’m concerned, if it’s good enough for Shakespeare and Dickens, then it’s good enough for me. In this episode, you’ll find… 1:15 – We welcome our co-host Irene Triendl to B2BQ&A. 5:15 – We put Andy Bacon’s question to Rishi Dastidar. 20:40 – Our copywriting tip of the month from John Kerrison. 21:45 – We discuss what buzzwords you want to banish to Room 101… forever. Have you got a question for B2BQ&A? We’ll make it our mission to get you an answer; send us a voice memo at podcast@radix-communications.com. If there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom. How to listen: You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player And don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify Credits Firstly, thank you to Irene Triendl. You’ve been an excellent co-host Thanks, Andy Bacon, for your question; we loved discussing it. And thank you to Rishi Dastidar. You gave us a brilliant answer, and loads to think about. Thanks to John Kerrison, for that superb copywriting tip of the month. And last but absolutely not least, thank you to everyone who contributed your nominations for buzzwords to send to Room 101; they were great fun to hear. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash Transcript: B2BQ&A 101: How important is correct grammar in B2B content? Andy Bacon: So the question I’ve got for you is whether grammar is important in copywriting. So, for example, may we start a sentence with ‘and’? Irene Triendl: That’s a really good question. Let’s ask Rishi Dastidar! David McGuire: Hello listener; you are very welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 101. Irene: And in a moment, we’ll ask the poet and brand linguist Rishi Dastidar, a question from Andy Bacon: just how important is correct grammar and B2B copy? And is it okay to start a sentence with a conjunction? David: We’ll also hear a copywriting tip of the month from John Kerrison, and reveal which B2B buzzwords you most want to banish into Room 101. But first, introductions. My name is David McGuire. I’m creative director at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency, and I’m joined by a wonderful guest co-host, it’s B2B tech content strategist, writer, consultant and all round force of nature. Irene Triendl. Irene, hello. Irene: Hey, David, thanks for having me on. It’s great to be here. David: It’s very good to have you on the show. Was that an appropriate introduction? Irene: Yeah, that’s very good. Thanks for that. David: And so you’re working under the name: Say What? At the moment, I tried to pronounce the question mark in it. Is that right? Irene: Yeah, it does. It has a question mark. And I think usually when I go on the Companies House website, they don’t like that. So it’s Say What? Limited in that and it’s always a problem in any of the online forms. David: And that’s kind of a content consultancy for B2B tech firms. Is that right? Irene: Yes. So I help B2B tech companies, whether that’s big companies or start-ups with basically their messaging with their positioning, with finding a good story that they identify with, and that also their prospects are going to recognize and respond to. David: And you’ve always sort of been drawn to B2B tech, it seems what is it that you like about it so much? Irene: Well, a few reasons actually, I think. So I think for one thing, what I like about it is that it’s hard. There are no easy answers. So there’s always a challenge there. The other thing I love is that B2B tech gets incredibly niche-y. So you learn the most amazing things about the most obscure subjects and professions. And so that’s pretty cool about it. But I think the other thing is that, you know, a lot of tech clients are usually super smart, but often aren’t great at communication. So, you’ve got a responsibility to do right by your clients. So when I come in to help protect business with their messaging, and their positioning, sometimes I feel like I’m doing something almost arrogant, right? Like I’m getting into a space I know nothing about until that point. And if I do my job, right, then I end up almost teaching them something new about their world. And I help them and their prospects see what they do a little differently. And that takes a lot of research and questioning your own assumptions and theirs and checking again and again and think: Did I really get that right? But when you do get it right, and you help a tech brand with their narrative, and then they both recognize that story, but also see themselves in a new light, then that’s fantastically rewarding. And I guess marketing, good marketing, whether that’s B2B or B2C really comes down to empathy, and some sort of insight into your audience, and I think in B2B, you need to flex your empathy muscles a little bit more, because, it is so niche-y. And because maybe it might be a bit harder to really understand what it’s like to be a CTO in a cryptocurrency start-up. But when you do get that right, then it just feels great. David: Yeah, absolutely. Amen. I couldn’t agree more. Irene, would you mind performing your first official duty as our guest co-host? And tell the listener how they can get in touch with us, please? Irene: Yes, absolutely. Listener, if you have any questions or comments, you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter @radixcom. Or, if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email: podcast@radix-communications.com. David: Excellently done. Thank you. Irene: And now it’s time for the actual Q&A part of the B2BQ&A. This month our question comes from marketing strategy consultant, B2B marketing strategy director, and most importantly, Gin-magnate, Andy Bacon. And he’s asking about grammar. Andy: Hi, David and team. Thank you for a brilliant podcast series. It’s Andy Bacon here. So the question I’ve got for you is whether grammar is important in copywriting. So, for example, may we start a sentence with ‘and’? I look forward to hearing your deliberations. Thanks team. Bye. David: Thanks for the kind words and flattery it seems will indeed get you anywhere. This question raises an issue that I know copywriters, marketers, clients and stakeholders argue about every day. What constitutes correct grammar? Who makes the rules? And how much does it even matter? So to answer I chatted with a guest that has twin perspectives on the issue. Rishi Dastidar is both a poet and head of brand language at Brandpie. So he knows all about the effects of following and discarding linguistic rules. I started by asking him, how important is it that B2B brands use correct grammar? Rishi Dastidar: It is as important as what your brand image and positioning determines it to be, which sounds like a cop out, and isn’t meant to be a cop out. But of course, it’s really dependent on who you are, what business you’re in, and what your brand actually stands for, and represents. So for example, if you are a business, who is, you know, let’s say, hypothetically, in the business of nuclear safety, yeah, I really, really, really prefer it if you had a pretty tight grasp on English grammar Partly for clarity, but partly also to convey the sense that you know what you’re doing, and you follow the rules. And so therefore, I can trust you to do similar on the critical things that you do. If you are doing something less life threatening and with less national security implications, then I think you can probably have a little more fun with it. Because grammar does many things. Yes, it’s a set of rules. Yes, it’s a form of policing. But it also conveys an image or an impression as much as anything else. And so yeah, if your brand image is actually around, breaking some rules, cutting some corners, doing things differently, then actually knowing when to flex away from those rules, and what those rules might be perceived to be, actually gives you a chance to actually change and mess up your image slightly. David: And you mentioned perception there and what the rules are perceived to be. Because the example Andy gave, you know, starting a sentence with a conjunction, right starting a sentence with ‘and’ or ‘but’ that’s not really a rule as far as I can make out, but it’s perceived to be a rule. Rishi: Strictly speaking, it never actually does any harm to start a sentence in that way. Because are you genuinely saying that meaning is misunderstood if you start with an and or above? No, clearly not. So then we’re into taste right? And, you know, which way do you go? If you just say, and enforce a rule like that, you’re at some level subliminally suggesting we’re a slightly old fashioned tone of voice. We’ve got these reasons for sticking with these perceived rules. I would suggest that moving away from that probably brings you closer to where the majority of people are writing and speaking right now. And if I have aspirations to speak to a relatively larger audience, a relatively mainstream audience, I would far rather be on that side of the ledger, rather than the other side. But again, to cycle back to what I said earlier, caveat, caveat, caveat, it’s what’s right for your brand. There are absolutely going to be some brands where that stickler for detail, conveying that level of formality is absolutely right, and go ahead. But know that is the case. Don’t just idly fall into the ‘well I was taught this at school so therefore this is the correct way’. We know that language changes. We know that it evolves, and grammar and syntax evolves as part of that as well. So don’t just rely on the assumptions that you might have been taught 20/30 years ago, actually listen and see as to what’s going on in terms of contemporary diction in terms of contemporary writing. And then take your decision based on that. As much as anything you might have been taught in the past. David: Absolutely, because I think being seen to break a perceived rule – I mean starting a sentence with ‘and’ or ‘but’ – you know, Shakespeare did it, Dickens did it, going right back Chaucer did it. Rishi: It’s not that there are hard and fast rules, it is knowing the communication and knowing the audience and knowing the time. I don’t want a court summons to start ‘oy oy, watchya, see ya in the nick’. That’s just not right. But again, if you’re sending a chatty email, if you’re sending a text message, what why wouldn’t it. One of the things that means that poetry has the effects that it has that is different often from prose, is precisely because of the way that it does play with syntax, and break syntax. And actually force reading, in particular, into places that don’t feel necessarily comfortable. So you might run on sentences that are more uncomfortable to read out loud, or you might deliberately withhold punctuation. Or you might do things like add a conjunction to a word where it’s surprising, I mean, say for example that you take the prefix’ un’, adding ‘un’ to almost any noun gives you a poetic effect. Now, strictly speaking, what you’re doing there is messing around with grammar to achieve something, and what you’re trying to achieve is a pause in the reader to make them think differently, make them consider something in a different way. And so you’re deliberately trying to break up flow, you’re deliberately trying to force a pause in their thought, basically. And that’s when knowing the power that breaking syntax can have, that’s when it gives you a real force. And so again, there’s that tension between how do I make the rules work for me versus how do I obey the rules?. And we’re doing this subconsciously all the time as writers. And we more often than not will do it on the basis of how do I best answer the brief. But some of that consideration, and some of the effects that you want to achieve, do go in things like, what rules can I break? David: Just to summarize then, the rules of grammar, such as we might think of them, they are probably less clear, and fewer than one might think. But at the same time, it’s at that point, it becomes a style choice. It’s not correct/incorrect grammar, it’s formal versus informal writing more often – some things are just incorrect grammar. Rishi: Yeah, some things are but if we take a step back grammar is what? Grammar is, effectively, the system, the frameworks that allow us to understand. And they, like the content that they support, are subject to flux and change like language itself. So the fundamental question that you are asking is are the structures and the scaffolding that I am putting my language into, are they functioning to aid understanding? That’s your starting point. David: Thanks again, Andy, for your question. And thank you Rishi, for such a thoughtful and thought provoking answer. Irene, I know you have to have some thoughts about this. Care to jump in? Irene: Yeah, absolutely. So the question about grammar, my first impulse when I hear: can you use incorrect grammar? I always think, what are your assumptions when you say that? The person who says that, what are they thinking? What are the assumptions behind that? As someone who’s studied not only languages but also a bit of linguistics, I think it’s interesting to think about this in terms of prescriptive versus descriptive grammar. There’s prescriptive grammar, which is, you know, with all of our words there’s a right and a wrong. And compared to that, there’s descriptive grammar, which is all about, this is how people actually use language these days. And so obviously there’s lots of things that are highly problematic with prescriptive grammar because it enforces certain hierarchies and ignores minority uses of a language, etc, etc. But I think, I mean, the thing that really annoys me about it is that people are so smug about it. And I think behind that is an assumption that knowing the rules of grammar somehow makes you more intelligent. And I think they’re often the ones that, you know, end up acting like there’s a problem or like, they haven’t understood something properly when really there was no ambiguity there at all. So I think if we’re thinking about what they mean, what do you mean by correct grammar? Do you mean language that that’s an unambiguous and easily understood, then yeah, okay. But then language isn’t just that, that’s just one function of language. It’s also very poetic and emotive and performative and all of that. So, then I think when we’re talking about copywriting, then maybe clarity would be a better term to use and say if it’s not clear enough rather than the grammar isn’t correct. Or it’s not persuasive enough. That’s a different thing, right? Or, do you mean formal expression? Do you want to be more formal? And I think that’s based on another, what I think is a misconception that formality somehow equals authority right? That you know, just because you can dress up a bad take in a Victorian frock.  Still be a bad take. Like, you know, Jacob Rees-Mogg. David: I mean, you have experience of working in Asia, particularly as a former Velocity writer and things like that, where a lot of the time you will have been pushing things, I guess, to kind of be quite edgy from a writing style point of view. You must have had that: you can’t start a sentence with ‘and’ conversation with a client, at some point, right? I mean, we’ve all had that. How do you approach something like that? Irene: I think it probably sets every copywriter on edge. It’s an immediate trigger. But I think you do have to be quite diplomatic. And you really need to, I think, need to try to understand where are they coming from? Is that something that their boss said? Is it something they’ve remembered from school, etc? So I think you need to really engage with, and really talk about what they’re trying to do with that piece of copy. So that’s really what it comes down to, it’s not so much about grammar, but about style. What are you trying to do with this? Do you want to sound different from the rest? Or do you want to sound exactly like the rest? And I think that’s when you then can have a conversation. But you do need to be open to almost starting with the basics, what is this piece of copy meant to do for you? And I think it’s interesting, I just, I had a thought when you said this is what you wanted to talk about. I thought, actually, I can think of a few cases where following the rules of grammar would actually not be appropriate. Like, for instance, right? If I were to kind of, especially when it’s like some obscure rule, right? Like if I were to insist that the correct plural of octopus is octopodes because it’s from Greek, wouldn’t that draw attention to myself. And I’m making a big fuss about something that’s not the point David: Yeah. And I mean in B2B tech using data as the plural of datum, you know, and so the data show, rather than the data shows, I mean, who talks like that! Irene: Exactly. At the same time, I speak a bit of Italian, and I cringe when people order one Panini because Panini is plural. And it makes me cringe. But I’m also aware that if I went into the cafe around the corner and ordered one panino I just sound like a bit of a twat, right? So you know, sometimes you’ve just got to make a call. David: So this is why whenever we see you in a cafe, you’re eating two panini. Irene: … That’s what happened. David: Because you couldn’t order just one. Irene: Absolutely. You’ve, again, I feel seen. David: And can I ask if I may? Is it different that experience for you as a bilingual person? Is that something where you’ve had to kind of learn the rules of English on purpose, where for a lot of us, who grew up speaking it, we just internalize it. Irene: Yeah, of course. I’ve had to learn the rules of English. But I love language and I love playing with it. And as a bilingual copywriter sometimes when I hear a new phrase that I’ve never heard in English or an idiom, one of the first things is oh great I’m going to use you. I’m going to try you out. I’m going to play with you. And so that’s beautiful, for me the interesting stuff really in any language happens between the rules and in the little crevices between common usage or accepted usage. Now, it’s time to hear our copywriting tip of the month. Come on in, John. John Kerrison: I’m John Kerrison and I’m a senior copywriter at Radix Communications. My copywriting tip is to limit your vocabulary. That sounds like the opposite of what a writer should do. But often you’ll see people who are just starting out try and flex their inner thesaurus and pepper their copy with words you’d never use in conversation. It’s important to remember that your job isn’t to show off, it’s to make things really clear and engaging for your reader. So as an example, instead of saying my work suffers from sesquipedalian loquacious, you can just say, I use too many long words. David: Please accept our profound zealous gratitude, John. We are much obliged for the benediction of your most erudite sagacity. Irene, do you care to elucidate further? Irene: No, not really, except to say John’s spot on. David: While we’re talking about vocabulary, and this being Episode 101 of the podcast, I thought it would be good fun to play Room 101 and ask what buzzwords people would like to banish from B2B content forever. And they really, really didn’t hold back. Irene, are you ready for this? Irene: Absolutely. I’m really curious to hear these. Let’s go. David: Okay. On Propolis, Steve Kemish and Amanda Holmes would both like to ban ‘ABM’. Natalie Boon thinks ‘impact’ has lost its.. well… impact. And Skip Fidura would like to see the back of ‘ideate’ and ‘omnichannel’. Irene: Well, ‘omnichannel’ only if you’re not writing any e-commerce content, right? David: I think he prefers ‘multichannel’ but you’d have to ask Skip. Meanwhile, on LinkedIn, it went really wild. Nigel Graber nominates ‘passionate’. I once wrote a whole blog post about that one. Ray Philpott hates ‘key’ and ‘innovative’. Robert Joy also hates ‘impact’. He says it’s because people don’t know how to use ‘affect’ and ‘effect’. Irene: Might have a point. David: Anja Jones, Colin Gentry, Mark Brighton, and Katy Young all want to ban ‘leverage’. Nick Simpson wants to eject ‘solution’ into space. Irene: Yeah, totally with that one. David: Absolutely. And a lot of hate for ‘utilize’ including from Anna S, Ben Rotheray, and Colin Gentry… And so many more: ‘facilitate’, ‘best in class’, ‘new normal’, ‘collaboration’, ‘transformation’, ‘disruptive’, ‘B2P’, ‘AI’, ‘piece’ – as in a piece of content not as in the concept of peace I hope – ‘holistic’, ‘opportunity’, ’empower’. Basically, there’s blood in the water. Irene: I’m guilty of a few of those. David: It became an absolute feeding frenzy on LinkedIn. Special mentioned to Julian Titinger, who wants to ban the word ‘cloud’ that’s a big shout. Irene: Yeah, good luck with that one. David: It’s up to you Irene, so let’s open the door to Room 101. What one word should we lock in there forever? Irene: Just one? David: Yeah, I’m only giving you one. The whole of B2B content would collapse if we took all of those outright? Irene: Very true. So if it’s just one I am going to go with my absolute pet peeve which is… ‘utilize’. David: Yes! I can hear the people cheering from here. Utilize, in you go and we’ll slam the door. Right then. Job done Irene: Nice. My absolute pet peeve wasn’t on the list. And it’s less of a B2B tech content word. It’s more of a LinkedIn word. And it’s ‘humbled’. David: Oh, that’s a big shout. That’s a really big shout. And that is all we have time for this episode. Irene, please would you thank this month’s contributors Irene: Yes. So huge thanks to Rishi Dastidar for the interview, and Andy Bacon for the question. I hope you feel we’ve answered it adequately. Thanks also to John, for the copywriting tip of the month. And to all the many, many people who vented about their most hated B2B buzzwords and cliches. Sorry, we couldn’t mention everyone. David: And thanks to you, Irene, you have been an awesome co-host. If the listener wants to get in touch with you or hear more of your wisdom and your thoughts, how can they do that? Irene: Well, you can check out my website at say-what.org where I post blog posts less frequently than I’d like to, you could email me at irene@say-what.org or you could just connect with me on LinkedIn. David: Brilliant, and we’ll put links to all of that in the show notes as well. Listener, remember, it could be your question that we answer in a future episode. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer email a voice memo to podcast@radix-communications.com or find us on social media. David: I’ll see you next month for another B2BQ&A when we’ll be answering: Why is there so little humour in B2B content? If you have thoughts or answers, do send them our way. Until then, make good content and remember: no court in the world is going to accept the absence of a comma as grounds for killing and eating your grandma. David and Irene: Goodbye! The post B2BQ&A 101: How important is correct grammar in B2B content? appeared first on Radix.

It’s the 100th episode of the Radix Communications podcast… and it’s all change. New format, new sound, and new name. So if you were expecting Good Copy, Bad Copy, don’t panic; you’re in the right place. You’ll still hear great guests discussing B2B content and copywriting. But as the new name suggests, each episode of B2BQ&A will focus on a specific question, submitted by you. You set the agenda, and we go in search of an expert who can answer. To kick off, we have an excellent question from marketer and content specialist Zdenka Linkova. Zdenka asks: “How do you convince your clients to check for the factual accuracy of a content piece, like an ebook or a case study, rather than checking and changing every single word in your document – and leave the tone of voice and wording up to the copywriter?” As our Barriers to B2B Content survey revealed, this is a perrenial problem for writers and marketers alike. So we enlisted Doug Kessler, no less, to give us the definitive answer. For this special episode, we’re also joined by a very familiar voice. Fiona Campbell-Howes returns as co-host, as we take the opportunity to reflect on the last eight and a half years of the Radix podcast, revisiting some of the wisdom from our previous contributors over the last 99 episodes. You’ll hear from (deep breath): Emily King, Fiona Campbell-Howes, James Henry, Doug Kessler, Lorraine Williams, Pauliina Jamsa, Lasse Lund, Kate Stoodley, Maureen Blandford, Dr Andrew Bredenkamp, Harendra Kapur, Nick Mason, Shaema Katib, Matthew Harper, Alice Farnham, Angela Cattin, Mwamba Kasanda, Professor Chris Trudeau, Raine Hunt, Joel Harrison, Dr Christine Bailey, Rhiannon Blackwell, Luan Wise, Natalie Narh, Kavita Singh, Sonja Nisson, and John Espirian. Huge thanks you all (and everyone else who contributed to the last 99 episodes). And huge kudos to Emily, who had the idea for the podcast (waaaay before it was cool) and kept it running for so long. You rock. Finally, it wouldn’t be a Radix podcast without a copywriting tip of the month. We hear from Radix Copywriter Ben Clarke. And he lets us into the secret of how to make sure your tone of voice is on-brand for the client you’re writing for. You’ll find a full transcript of our podcast at the end of this post. So, how do you get clients to stop meddling with your wording? A conversation with a client or stakeholder, asking them to trust that you know what you’re doing as a content creator, is never an easy prospect. But like most difficult conversations, it can be well worth it if you can get the outcome you want. Thankfully, Doug Kessler has loads of tips to make sure you raise the subject at the right time, and in the most constructive way. Here are three to get you started: ‘If it’s making the copy better, it’s not meddling.’ Whisper it quietly, but the first thing to consider is whether the client or stakeholder reviewing your work might actually be right. It’s important to remember that they have probably been in this game for a long time, like you. And they might be tweaking your copy for the better. ‘Defend your work without defensiveness.’ If you want clients and stakeholders to listen to you as an expert writer, first you have to establish credibility. And that credibility cannot be demanded – it has to be earned. Start by by standing your ground in situations where you have the expertise, but by also accepting neutral things that aren’t going to change the copy that much. ‘You’ve got to brief them clearly.’ If you can be really clear in advance about which aspects of your content need feedback, you’re more likely to get constructive results. So if your work is going to a client or stakeholder for review, adding a note to say: “We’re reviewing writing style separetely, but I really need you to check the technical accuracy of this piece” might make them more inclined to focus less on the wording, and more on the facts. In this episode, you’ll find… 1:20 – We welcome our co-host Fiona Campbell-Howes and introduce B2BQ&A. 4:45 – We mark our 100th episode by revisiting clips from the last eight years. 10:50 – We put Zdenka Linkova’s question to Doug Kessler. 23:35 – We hear some more wisdom from the last 99 episodes of the Radix podcast. 29:50 – Our copywriting tip of the month from Ben Clarke. 31:20 – We listen to a final set of past contributions to the podcast. Have you got a question for B2BQ&A? We’re ready to asnwer you! Send us a voice memo at podcast@radix-communications.com And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom. How to listen:  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player And don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify Credits Firstly, thank you to Fiona Campbell-Howes. It was wonderful to have you back as our co-host. Thank you to Zdenka Linkova, for your brilliant question. And Doug Kessler, thank you for answering it so expertly. Thanks to Ben Clarke, for that excellent copywriting tip of the month. And last but absolutely not least, thank you to everyone who has contributed to the last 99 episodes of the Radix podcast. We couldn’t have made it to 100 without you. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash Transcript: B2BQ&A 100: How can I stop clients meddling with my wording? How do you convince your clients to check for the factual accuracy of a content piece, like an ebook or a case study, rather than checking and changing every single word in your document and leave the tone of voice and wording up to the copywriter? Fiona: It’s a brilliant question and I love it. Let’s ask Doug Kessler. David: Hello, listener and welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search and an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is also Episode 100 of the Radix Communications Podcast, so if you were expecting Good Copy, Bad Copy, don’t panic, you are in the right place. You’ll still hear great guests and co-hosts sharing advice on B2B copywriting – just in a shorter, more focused format. With a new sound and a new name. Fiona: This episode, we ask Doug Kessler a question from Zdenka Linkova. How do you get clients and stakeholders to focus on checking for accuracy and let the writer handle the wording and the voice? David: But first, where are my manners? We need some introductions. My name is David McGuire. I’m Creative Director at Radix Communications the B2B writing agency. And for this special episode, I’m joined by a suitably special guest co-host. It’s B2B technology writer, co-founder of this very podcast and my former boss, Fiona Campbell-Howes. Fiona, welcome back. Fiona: Hello, thank you very much and thank you for having me back. David: Oh no; anytime. How have you been? Fiona: Good? Thank you. Yeah, surprisingly good, considering, you know, what we’ve just all been through. But yeah, the writing’s going well and I think I’ve been quite lucky in having quite a lot of clients and quite a lot of work. So I think our sector, especially, was one that survived the pandemic pretty well. Did you find the same at Radix? David: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we’ve never been so busy as we were over the last year or so. Which is, admittedly, a nicer set of problems to have than a lot of people have had lately. Do you feel that the market has changed at all, for B2B writing over the over the last year, 18 months? Fiona: Well, I think what it seemed to be is, in all of the content that we wrote over the last three or four years or so it was all about digital transformation is going to happen in the future, and the future is going to be like this. And then suddenly it happened. And then every tech company suddenly had to rethink what the future is going to be. So all the content that had been produced kind of went out of date overnight. And we were called in to produce brand new content with brand new predictions about the future. So yeah, that’s pretty much how it’s gone for me. David: Yeah, that sounds very, very familiar. And the new company, the new world post-Radix, for you is Greythorne. Is that right? Fiona: Greythorne, yes. That’s my alias. It’s basically just me. I’ve got an unnecessarily swanky office – next door to yours. David: It’s good to know you’re not far away. Fiona: In the next-door building. I did move one building away. We could just about wave to each other. But we’re facing in different directions. So that’s where I am. And I’m doing pretty much what I was doing before at Radix. So it’s still B2B tech content. David: Just without having to wrangle a team of 20 people? Fiona: Yeah. So it’s more wrangling clients and less wrangling of people. Which does give more time to do the writing, which I actually really enjoy. David: Well, great. Can’t criticise that at all. So anyway, Fiona, I’m sure you know, if you cast your mind back, you’ll remember how this goes. But could you please tell the listener how they can get in touch with us? Fiona: Well, yeah, I sort of remember how this goes. But I’m wondering if maybe there’s new jingles – so I’m looking forward to finding out. So listener, if you have any comments or suggestions, you can find Radix on LinkedIn or on Twitter @radixcom. Or if you want us to answer your question, email us the voice memo, podcast@radix-communications.com. David: Well, I guess that answers that. In just a moment, we’ll hear from Zdenka Linkova and from Doug. But this is our 100th episode and it’s one where one podcast is turning into another. So we’re going to mark that by playing in a few clips and thanking some of the people who have contributed over the past eight and a half years. Emily King: “Welcome to Episode One of the Radix Copycast. Here we’ll be discussing some of the current trends and issues in B2B technology copywriting.” Fiona: “You have to show the benefit of what you’re offering to your audience. It’s no use talking about your own product or talking about your own company or saying, ‘Oh, we’ve got a webinar’, ‘we’ve got a white paper’, those don’t seem to work. It’s can you show the value of opening the email to the recipient.” James Henry: “I’m not sure having a three-act structure automatically engages the audience. But I think the human brain is hardwired to expect stories to have a certain shape. So if your story has got three acts, in whatever kind of proportion to each other, that’s just enough for the brain to sort of click into ‘Ah, I’m hearing I’m experiencing a story here’, then what you have to do is bring the engaging kind of elements to it.” Doug Kessler: “Structurally rich and semantically categorized content, which makes it automatically discoverable, reusable, reconfigurable, and adaptable, that seems to be the characteristics of intelligent content.” Emily King: “Hello, and welcome to the 26th episode of radix. His podcast, which we’ve renamed Good Copy, Bad Copy,” (Fiona: “Nice.”) Lorraine Williams: “If you can write something and then leave it, even if it’s for like an hour before you go back to it, or do something different away from anything, you have a slightly different headspace. So you won’t still be in that zone. So just, if you can leave it a whole day, that’d be amazing. Because you will definitely spot things.” Pauliina Jamsa: “Stand-up comedy is all about dealing with difficult things, and making fun out of it. So, all the videos and content that I’m doing, I always have a little glint in the eye, so to speak. So it’s done with a sense of humour which makes even serious topics much more fun.” Lasse Lund: “The data shows our customers are really interested in getting into, like, the nitty-gritty detail of what’s going on with some of our products and stuff like that. And so they do like the other stuff, too, at certain points. But that’s just one example of that we, you know, it’s one thing to rely on gut instinct. And the longer you’re in a company that the better that will be, right? But also making sure to measure and track and pull lessons away.” Kate Stoodley: “It kind of has to again, come down to having social be a seat at the content planning table, and be a really collaborative approach. I think that’s really the only way that things can can really make sense. Because just because you can put something on social doesn’t mean you should.” Maureen Blandford: “Generally what resonates with targets are their own words. If I’m selling ,particularly in a complex sale, I need marketing to behave the way in the market that great salespeople behave. So bubble up pain, ask good questions.” Fiona: We just heard from Emily King, me, my husband James Henry, Doug (who we’re going to hear from in a minute), Lorraine Williams, Pauliina Jamsa, Lasse Lund, Kate Stoodley, and Maureen Blandford. David: It’s always been an excuse to talk to really good people, this podcast. It’s changed a lot over the last eight and a half years. I think that’s safe to say. Fiona: And thanks very much to all of you for being part of the podcast. David: So lots of memories there. Fiona, when you started the podcast with Emily back in 2013, did you think it would get to 100 episodes? Fiona: I didn’t think it would get to 10 episodes! I have to say I was a very reluctant participant at the start. So I don’t even know if I could be thought of as the co-founder of the podcast, because it was Emily. And you know, she had a lot of podcasting experience. She’s very keen that we did this and I was absolutely terrified. So if anybody’s listening, I apologise for the fact that I was so reluctant back in the day. But yeah, I thought we’d run out of topics after five or six. So the fact that it’s still going, what, eight years later, and 100 episodes. Yeah, it just shows how much there is to talk about in B2B copywriting. David: Yeah, I mean, it’s now had three names. So for the first 25 episodes it was Radix Copycast, then it had 74 episodes as Good Copy, Bad Copy, before being B2BQ&A. And also, both of the original presenters have now left. I’m kind of wondering if it’s one of these Ship of Theseus things. At what point does it cease to be the same podcast? Although they called it the Ship of Theseus on Wandavision, but to me, I just always think of that as being Trigger’s Broom. Fiona: Yeah, I had to look up the Ship of Theseus. You said, is it like the Ship of Theseus/Sugarbabes/Trigger’s Broom. So I was alright with the Sugarbabes and Trigger’s Broom, butt Ship of Theseus I had to look up. Well, I think you’ve had Emily back on as a guest presenter or co-host and I’m back here now. So you know, there are certain elements that recur. So we’ll hear from some more guests later in the episode. But first the part we’re actually here for where we take our listener’s question and find an expert to answer it. Here’s Zdenka. Zdenka: Hi, this is Zdenka Linkova. I’m a freelance content specialist from the Czech Republic. And I would like to ask for your advice on clients feedback. How do you convince your clients to check for the factual accuracy of a content piece, like an ebook or a case study, rather than checking and changing every single word in your document and leave the tone of voice and wording up to the copywriter? Thank you very much. Take care, and bye-bye. David: Oh, this is a great question to start our new format. Although, Zdenka, if you don’t mind, we’ll take clients to include internal stakeholders, too, so that we can cover both agency people, freelancers, and in house marketers. Our research into obstacles to great B2B content shows stakeholder interference is among the biggest frustrations for B2B content marketers worldwide. 86% of respondents said it was an issue. What’s more, six out of ten think their sign off process makes their content worse. So we went right to the top for this one. Doug Kessler, creative director and co-founder of Velocity Partners. He’s known for content that’s a little outside the usual B2B comfort zone. So I asked him, How do you stop pesky clients meddling with your copy? Doug: I do think it’s only meddling if it’s wrong, if it’s making the copy better, it’s not meddling. And so we think of it as meddling, whether it is or it’s irrelevant. And, you know, I think the core thing is you earn your credibility, you can’t just demand it, you have to earn it. And you have to deserve it. I do get prima donna writers who, the work isn’t good enough to be Prima Donna, if you know you slam-dunked it by all means defend everything to the last minute. But if you haven’t, listen and take on board stuff. Now we all know, some of that isn’t great. But first thing is your positioning as an expert, as an expert writer, and as really good at this. And your positioning as it goes up, you get less and less of that. And, of course, there are stakeholders who come in and don’t know you and so there’s that. But your job is to earn that credibility and part of earning that is defending your work without defensiveness. Accept the neutral things that aren’t going to change it that much the things that make it better embrace, so be ready to do all that. Whereas I do find some writers are like, every note seems to be a stain. And we’ve got to get out of that mindset. They’re not the enemy here. And so, you want feedback, we need feedback for our work, right? So you just want to focus that feedback on the person’s area of expertise, you don’t necessarily want style notes from a techie. I once got a ton of style notes. And at the end of the call, I realised this is the lawyer, they were asked to review it, because of legal reasons. And he’s given me all the style points as soon as he hung up, I pretty much crumpled it up. But you want to try to focus it on their area of expertise, then you’ve got to brief them clearly, don’t just send them the copy. You’ve got to brief them on what is it for? What’s it not for? Who’s it for? Who’s it not for? What do you want from them, and what don’t you want? So if you are really clear and say, Look, I don’t really need you for style, I need you for accuracy – you might find that they’re, less inclined to improve your style. So some of that actually briefing them is a big part of it. And I think maybe the last part is or a third part is don’t ask if you don’t really want the input. Now, obviously, if it’s you’re client you may not have that option, but you don’t have to ask everybody. And so there’s always that option, you know, I guess finally if it’s a chronic problem, and it’s a stakeholder you can’t get away from you got to have that difficult conversation. There’s a book called difficult conversations. I absolutely love it. It helps you have these and get them to the table to say we seem to have a working problem, let’s talk about it. So there’s that too. David: Is this a problem that you still yourself get sometimes? Or do you get to a point where your Doug Kessler, Nobody messes with you? Doug: Absolutely. No, there’s absolutely no, I get no points, I get kids out of college with a ‘how to write copy’ book on their desk in front of them, telling me how to fucking write copy. And so I get it all the time. And in truth, no, I was going to lie there. I said, in truth, and I was about to lie and say, it doesn’t bother me – it can really fucking bother me. But let’s face it, it’s a service business, we have to give the client what they want. But our job is to make them want the right thing. It’s not an obstacle to our job. This is our job. We’ve got to take that seriously. If we’re failing to make them want the right thing. That’s our fucking fault. Right? We cannot cry about it and moan about it. So it’s a service business, and I’m in a service business, I don’t care if they’re right out of college, they’re the fucking client, they’re paying the bills, I will listen. But my job is to try to make them want the right thing. And if you fail over and over and over, well, you know, you got to fire that client or fire that boss by quitting. So if you really don’t, you’re just out of sync with what good is, you’re never going to please them or yourself. So find something else. Find somewhere else. David: Thank you. So, to summarise, just in terms of tips for the listener, you were kind of saying it starts with briefing them clearly, earning it, earning the credibility, picking your battles a little bit on the feedback that you push back on, and what you won’t push back on. Anything else that I’ve missed there, or are those really the key things aligning around what good looks like? Doug: Yeah, those things, I think, aligning up front to agree on what good looks like is a really big one. And if it’s the thing about they’re killing my mojo, like they’d systematically went through at every conversational moment, they stomped it out – you may not be aligned on what good copy is. And you need to kind of talk about it in the abstract before you talk about it for this specific piece of copy. And if you really fundamentally disagree then, well then, if you still want to please that stakeholder or client, you do it their way you don’t get to have all bitter about it. They’ve agreed they don’t want to do conversational, let’s say. But let’s face it, some of this is: be open to being wrong. One person’s conversational is another’s cute, like, I hate cute. And I know that a lot of writers who go for conversational trip into cute very easily. I know I do it myself. There are times I think it was fine. And I read it later and think wow, that that’s horribly cute. That’s ‘Look at me’ writing and I think a lot of writers are very proud of the ‘look at me’ writing. It’s not what we’re here for. It’s not to make people say, wow, it’s so well written, it’s to change their mind and incite action and do something not to, to say Wasn’t that a cool turn of phrase. So these cool turns of phrase that we’re so proud of, might truly be jangling for the reader. And so we should be open to being wrong. And that, our conversational and cool turn of phrase, actually didn’t serve the brief. David: Thanks again, Zdenka, for your question. And thanks, Doug, for such a thoughtful response. Fiona, you’ve been at this writing game for a while, you must have some thoughts on this, I’m sure. Fiona: Yeah, this is actually one of my favourite topics. Because I’m sort of jumped to the end of what Doug was saying, you know, having those difficult conversations with clients or stakeholders about them, in quote marks, ‘meddling’ with your copy is something that I’ve come to really enjoy doing. And I actually sometimes hope that stakeholders will meddle with my copy, so that I can have those conversations. So, yeah, I really like this topic. And I really like Doug’s answers to it. Because there’s just so much wisdom in everything that Doug says, he’s like a sort of Egyptian cotton sheet. David: I’m sorry what? Fiona: You know how Egyptian cotton sheets have got a really high thread count? I think that with Doug, you get a really high wisdom count, a high insight count. I’ve got his interview in front of me, and I’ve just bolded all the things that I think: Yeah, he just said that really well. That’s absolutely brilliant. And it’s so true. About how you can’t demand credibility, you earn it. So very often, when stakeholders have input into your copy it is actually, right, they are actually helping to make it better. And you can’t just, as a writer, just assume that you are the best and that everything you write is the best possible way it can be written. Because there are many people who are very good writers, and they may not be a writer for a living, but they do have some very valid suggestions to make. So, I really like that. But once you kind of earn your credibility, and part of that you actually do by having those difficult conversations with stakeholders. I find it’s much easier to earn your credibility by working in collaboration and having conversation rather than communicating with the stakeholder through the comments on a Word document. David: So how do you actually approach those conversations, then if that’s something you particularly relish doing? Fiona: So there has to be real reason for it. So, to give you one example. Recently, I’ve been working with a big tech company, one that you’ve heard of, I mean, not you, you’ve heard of all tech companies, but one that everybody’s heard of. And there were let’s say that about eight to ten, stakeholders for each piece that I was writing, and there was a real was a real division between one group of stakeholders who were briefing me to write something like a white paper, and another group of stakeholders who were reviewing that copy, but who wanted to see something that would read like an article in wired. And so I was caught between these two groups, and whatever I wrote for the first group would not wash with the second group, so I had to rewrite it. And after three of four times of having to rewrite the entire thing from scratch, because it didn’t read like an article in wired, I thought, okay, we’re going to have to have that conversation. So let’s request – this was going through an agency as well, so I didn’t have direct contact with the stakeholders – let’s request a meeting with these stakeholders. And let’s just work out what it is they actually want to see? And how can we all get on the same page with what the output looks like? So how do I get brief to produce something that everybody wants to see? And that went really well. So, those conversations were had. They weren’t confrontational conversations at all. They were really collaborative conversations. Like, we’re all working towards the same goal, we want to produce a brilliant piece of content. And since having that, I haven’t had to rewrite anything, which is brilliant for me. But also, I think they’ve got much better content out of it, as well. So the whole thing about being aligned on what good content looks like and making sure everybody knows what the end product should look like, is really, really important. And sometimes it does take a conversation like that. David: So if you had to take one point away from what Doug said, to answer Zdenka’s question, how would you put it? Fiona: So I think for Zdenka and for all the other hundreds and thousands of writers out there that are getting these horrible bits of feedback from clients and clients meddling in things that they shouldn’t be. I think the thing that Doug said, for me, is that we’re not enemies, it’s not us and them, it’s not the client and us and it’s a kind of war of attrition. I think the thing to know is that we are, or we should be on the same side. It should be a collaboration. So, I’d say the way to stop stakeholders meddling is to have those conversations and to make sure that you are collaborating and not being confrontational with each other. So in a moment, we’ll hear from Ben Clarke with his copywriting tip of the month. But first, as this is Episode 100, let’s hear some more wisdom from the last 99. Andrew Bredenkamp: “There are, as with anything else, parts of the writing process that are very repetitive, and don’t require a very sophisticated process. And I think in those situations we’re looking at automating some of those. And so it’s really a collaborative… as in many fields, AI will not be replacing people, it will be taking away the grunt work, taking away the boring repetitive tasks and leaving the humans to do the higher end thinking and creative pieces of it.” Harendra Kapur: “Very often, when people do research, they’re researching to collect facts. The thing I find way more interesting and way more useful, is to research for opinions. Really, the most useful thing for me is a phone call with a customer or a blog from someone with actual skin in the game, just complaining about their job, or just the category. That is so much more useful to me than ‘12% of people use this system and that system.’ ” Nick Mason: “The reason why we are sort of anti-PDF, if you like, where we’re on that side of the of the argument, is we see it as a format that was created obviously, a long time ago; I think back as far as 1991. And really, so much has moved on since then. And PDF really, to our minds, hasn’t kept pace with that.” Shaema Katib: “Of course, we do have a clear good standard of what good content is based on historical performance, right. So these are our safe bets; content pieces that we know, will always work. Things like case studies, we’ve we’ve always seen that many of our best performing content have that credibility factor in them, like, they have things like statistics, testimonies, customer success stories in different formats, whether it be videos, case studies, or webinars. These things have always performed the best on a global scale.” Mat Harper: “I get the impression that marketers are always trying to justify their worth, and justify them being in the company. So to spend time on something that isn’t easily measurable, or doesn’t quickly show return on investment, is difficult.” Alice Farnham: “It’s really about sort of bringing, I think anyway, it’s about bringing out the best of them and bringing out that sort of individuality within the orchestra. But at the same time having a sort of coherence, and the sort of vision of what you want as well.” Angela Cattin: “So that’s the classic where a company’s using it’s own data and there’s naturally lot’s of sensitivities around that. So naturally in those instances, you want to go out there with very bold message. And there’s just a little bit of sensitivity, and you have to rein it in a little bit.” Mwamba Kasanda: “And that is a critical differentiator. Rather than people seeing an advertisement, an email, but when they have their actual contact within the business talking to them about the campaign, it’s much more powerful and and that person can also put it into their into context, into their world, and make it relevant for where they are right now.” Chris Trudeau: “There’s even more data now suggesting that as, you know, people know what they like. When you ask them do they want plain language, they don’t know what that means. So they tend to think as I was listening to one of your podcasts from a few months ago, that plain language is dumbing things down, but yet that’s not what it is. When you read something that’s clear, how many times have you actually said, ‘Oh, this is too clear’? You know, nobody says that.” David: We just heard from Dr Andrew Bredenkamp, Harry Kapur, Nick Mason, Shaema Shazleen Katib, Mat Harper, Alice Farnham, Angela Cattin, Mwamba Kasanda, and Professor Chris Trudeau. We are super grateful. Now let’s get that copywriting tip. Ben: My name is Ben and I’m a copywriter at Radix. For my copywriting tip of the month, I’m going to steal a piece of advice I learned from Fiona when I first joined the company. Every time you switch the brand you’re writing for, just take 15 minutes to read some of their work. Even if you’re already familiar with them. It could be a few blog posts, emails, or even an ebook. It will help you really capture their tone and voice, and get you in the right headspace for approaching the task at hand. It’s especially useful if you’re writing for multiple brands a day. Fiona: Thank you very much, Ben. I’m glad to hear you found the advice helpful. I have to say, it wasn’t my advice. I nicked it from George RR Martin, who said that, because there are so many characters in his Game of Thrones books, whenever he comes to write for a character that he hasn’t written for a while, he goes back to read previous sections where that character featured so that he can get back into their voice. And I’ve always found it really useful. And I still do it now. So it’s a very good tip. Thank you. David: I wonder which B2B tech firm is the equivalent of Hodor? Fiona: I don’t think we should say in a public forum. David: Well, that is very nearly all we have time for. But before we go, let’s hear one last chunk of distilled wisdom from our guests over the last 99 episodes. Raine Hunt: “I think what people forget is, they are still consumers, in their jobs and outside. And as such, the messages must be more sophisticated than they have been to date to ensure that we are responding to the needs of those individuals. So that’s where the value proposition and what you stand for, and what makes you unique is so important for marketers in the NHS.” Joel Harrison: “The biggest thing that’s made a difference in this industry is the understanding of the importance of emotion. And it is about understanding what drives an individual. And being able to really focus in on that, whether it’s on a granular level, or a kind of persona based level is, I think, what’s made the industry so much more of a wonderful, fulfilling place to work for everybody who’s remotely creative.” Dr Christine Bailey: “Right now, we need certainty. It’s a very uncertain world. So we need some data points. And we’ve also been conditioned to believe that the more points of evidence we have, the more likely people are to believe us. So that’s another reason why it’s good to use data and insights in our story.” Rhiannon Blackwell: “So that, for me, is the most critical thing about content in ABM. I think it’s really important that whatever you do produce, clients can recognise themselves in it. So not only the relevance to what they’re trying to achieve, but also the language that’s being used.” Luan Wise: “When it comes to writing content, I think there’s best practices, whether it’s social media content, or blogs or anything else, and that’s: know who you’re writing it for, and write it for them. And to have a purpose, particularly when we’re doing it for business. Make sure you include a call to action, make it into a conversation and make it social on social media. That’s a good post.” Natalie Narh: “It’s always, lik,e thinking about how you might perceive it and then putting yourself in the shoes of someone else to see how other parties might perceive it as well. And I think if more businesses did that, at every stage of production, they would then get to realise how the story changes over time. It sounds like a very simple thing to do, but I don’t think people question their processes enough.” Kavita Singh: “So I would say, if you do want to do more diversity content, set a target. You know, for us we do a monthly feature or blog. And you know,  sometimes it’s around mental health, you know, I’ve done one on psychological safety in the workplace, these all contribute to different aspects of diversity.” Sonja Nisson: “It’s an approach to market which you could coin with this mantra: ‘Help, don’t sell; talk, don’t yell; show, don’t tell.’ So it’s a different approach to marketing, and it came out of sales experience, really.” John Espirian: “It’s even more the case these days, especially now we’re in pandemic land, the last thing we want to get is a sales message. And yet, she says, and I totally agree with this, that if you give away your information, your ideas, as generously as you can, that’s actually what gets people’s attention. So you know, valuable content is is actually being as helpful as you can to the other person. That’s what builds trust. And actually, ultimately, that’s what does business for you.” Fiona: So we just heard from Raine Hunt, Joel Harrison, Dr Christine Bailey, Rhiannon Blackwell, Luan Wise, Natalie Narh, Kavita Singh, Sonja Nisson, and John Espirian. Thanks very much to all of you for contributing. And thanks too, to Ben Clarke to Doug Kessler and to Zdenka Linkova. I hope you feel we’ve answered your question. David: And thanks to you, Fiona for coming back in and co-hosting. It’s been lovely. I hope you’ve enjoyed it. Fiona: I have it’s taken me right. Yeah, it’s been a pleasure. David: We don’t have the ‘pod yurt’ these days, you’re not surrounded in a cardboard box trying to— Fiona: No, I am! I am! I’ve built one. I’ll send you a photo. David: I look forward to it. Listener, remember, in a future episode, it could be your question we answer. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer, email a voice memo to podcast@radix-communications.com, or find us on social media. David: I’ll see you next month for another B2Q&A. When we’ll be answering: How important is grammar, really? If you have any answers or thoughts on that please do send them our way. Until then make good content and remember, we have every right to create our own destiny, but none to interfere with someone else’s. Unless it’s to insert an Oxford comma. Goodbye!   The post B2BQ&A 100: How can I stop clients and stakeholders meddling with my wording? appeared first on Radix.

This month’s episode of Good Copy, Bad Copy is all about bringing the emotion back into B2B content. We’re joined by Paul Cash, CEO and Founder of Rooster Punk – and author of Humanizing B2B – for our feature interview. David and Paul talk about the human side of B2B copywriting, how the focus on the individual who is ultimately reading your content has been lost, and how and why we need to get it back. B2B Marketing’s Propolis Hive Expert Barbara Stewart makes her co-hosting debut, chatting with David about Paul’s thoughts, and exploring them further from a sales perspective. They cover everything from a bizarre focus group on crisp varieties, to the huge and often overlooked benefit of testimonials. And, of course, we have another superb copywriting tip for you. This time it’s from none other than last week’s co-host, George Reith, and he’s going to help you get that all-important variety into your writing. You’ll find a full transcript of our podcast at the end of this post. Why we should be striving to put the human back into B2B copywriting Emotion has always been part of B2B marketing. However, as B2B and industrial marketing have moved further into the digital world – and away from in-person contact – emotion has faded into the background. But selling products based entirely on features and benefits leaves a void where the emotional side once lived. And as B2B brands have become more and more focused on promoting a similar set of sales points, clients and customers are finding new ways to differentiate between them – and emotion is the biggest. There is evidence to support the fact that clients and customers are increasingly giving weight to the brands that are showing up outside of their products. Brands that exist in a positive, meaningful, and authentic can connect with their clients and customers on an emotional level and create the best relationships. So, how can you put this into action? It’s all about inspiring a specific feeling, so establish what you want to convey, and identify the triggers you can use to evoke it. Paul Cash uses psychologist Robert Plutchik’s Wheel of Emotion, which breaks emotions down into emotional states and substates, as a planning tool when thinking about how to build that feeling-based connection. Remember: you don’t want to talk about a feeling, but to create that feeling. If you can be likeable as well as competent, you can gain an edge over your competition. By creating an emotional connection with your clients and customers, through taking creative risks with your marketing and setting yourself apart from other brands, you can inspire better engagement and loyalty. In this episode, you’ll find… 00:40 – We welcome our co-host Barbara Stewart to Good Copy, Bad Copy 02:55 – Likeable, as well as competent: our interview with Paul Cash. 16:45 – Barbara and David discuss the interview, Barbara’s experiences with emotion in B2B, and how the buying journey has changed. 30:35 – Copywriting tip of the month: How to keep your writing varied. Anything you loved in this episode?  We’d love to hear your thoughts. Tweet us at @radixcom or pop us a message on podcast@radix-communications.com. Or, if you fancy your chances of appearing on the podcast, send a voice memo our way. How to listen:  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player And don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify Transcript: Good Copy Bad Copy 99: Why we need emotion in B2B Speakers: Paul Cash, CEO and Founder of Rooster Punk David McGuire, Creative Director at Radix Barbara Stewart, CX Expert, Propolis George Reith, Consultant Writer at Radix Paul (clip): We’re really cool. You can be cool too. Come and buy our product. David: Hello listener and thank you for joining us for Episode 99 of Good Copy Bad Copy the B2B copywriting podcast. It’s so good to have you with us. Barbara: This month we’re talking about using emotions in your B2B content. And Paul Cash will be telling us why it’s not enough for your B2B brand to be competent. It needs to be likeable too. David: My name is David McGuire. I’m creative director at Radix Communications which is a B2B tech copywriting agency. And I really am delighted to be joined by a brand-new guest co-host for this episode. It’s B2B marketing’s Propolis Hive Expert for CX, which is easy for me to say. It’s Barbara Stewart. Barbara, welcome. Barbara: Thanks, David. Thanks so much for having me. I’m very excited too. It’s a topic that’s very much at the heart of my passion. So, thank you. David: Oh, no, thank you for coming in and agreeing to do it. So, you’re a Propolis Hive Expert, what’s one of them? Barbara: I am indeed I lead the CX Hive. So, my role is very much to help. There’s approximately 100 currently, different B2B marketers that are in my hive, and they have a multitude of needs and advice and support. And I get to basically, every month, host events to help them understand frameworks, different methodologies, that they can be using such as CX metrics, or how to get buy-in from CEOs. And it’s very much focused on giving them practical advice or listening to each other and learning from each other. So, it’s a lot of fun. David: How does it feel having to introduce yourself as an expert? Barbara: I do not like it. I refer to myself as a practitioner. So, I do from strategy to deployment. So, the word expert it’s… yeah, it’s always unsettling. I like to avoid it. David: They called me an expert. I didn’t say that. Barbara: Yeah, I didn’t ask for it. David: I believe you. Thousands wouldn’t. So, could you please perform your first official duty as co-host? And tell the listener how they can get in touch with us? Barbara: I certainly can. So, listener if you have any comments, questions, or suggestions, you can contact the show by email: podcast@radix-communications.com or on Twitter: @Radixcom. Apologies because in Northern Irish, the word Twitter is hard to hear in my accent. Our guest this month has a lot to say about emotions in B2B marketing, doesn’t he? David: Yeah, he absolutely does. Paul Cash from Rooster Punk. He’s the author of Humanizing B2B with a Z. And when I saw him speak at Ignite on the importance of likability for B2B brands, I just thought he’d be really ideal for this episode. So, I was delighted when he agreed to chat. And I started by asking him: Well, hasn’t emotion always been part of B2B? What’s changed now? Paul: So, I don’t think it’s new for sure. But it’s always been on the fringes of B2B marketing – was, as you say, hiding in the background. I think it’s more of a question of how and where it appears, that has changed. So much of historical B2B or industrial marketing was heavily reliant on emotional selling. The good old-fashioned sales rep with his expensive cameras and his company car would win deals based on his ability to charm, win over, and schmooze the traditional B2B buyer. And B2B was a relationship game. And emotion was the primary technique to get a foot in the door and expand from there. So, I think obviously, the internet SaaS business models, the shift away from sales, obviously trying to cut out costs from the process, the digital customer journey now being everything. Actually, the emotion has gone out of the process, and brands haven’t necessarily filled that void. Instead, they’re doing what they always do, which is sell product, lead on features and benefits, and expect everything to be rosy. And that, to me, is where the opportunity is. And that’s where we’re seeing this kind of change, as far as I’m concerned. David: So, what kind of emotional responses does marketing need to pick up with now, that sales would have provided, what kind of emotions do we need to key into? Paul: Yeah, so I think generally speaking evidence exists to support the fact that brands that show up in a positive, meaningful, and authentic way are the most liked brands. Having a positive outlook, I think, is key. But I think desire, appeal, kudos, stature, confidence, control are all emotional states that B2B buyers and decision-makers are either consciously or subconsciously influenced by. And on the flip of that, you’ve got fear, which is another powerful emotion that is prevalent in the buyer journey, specifically for B2B. So, you’ve got fear of missing out, the whole FOMO thing; you’ve got fear of being irrelevant as a brand, or even as a marketeer; you’ve got fear of making the wrong decision, you know, the whole loss aversion bias that Rory Sutherland talks about. So, my take is, it’s more about the feeling that I’m trying to induce in a prospect, rather than just an emotion, and I think feelings have a greater context, but they are both the same side of the queen. So, for example, if the feeling I want to create is, how do I make a prospect feel 10 feet tall? What emotional triggers do I need to use to induce that feeling? And there’s a brilliant tool by a famous psychologist called Robert Plutchik. And he has this wheel of emotion. And on this wheel of emotion, you’ve got all the main eight states and all these sub emotions. And they’re actually just really good planning tools to think about how you build that emotional and feeling-based connection. David: By what you’re saying, it’s definitely about invoking the feeling, rather than talking about the feeling, right? From the point of view of when we’re creating the content – we often talk about ‘show don’t tell’. Paul: Yeah, it’s the subtlety of marketing. Obviously, we’re not in a market stall. We’re not just shouting out: Yeah, we’re really cool. You can be cool too. Come and buy our products. You’ve got to earn the right to talk about products, you’ve got to influence and persuade people. All the usual rules of B2C marketing that, we have this conversation about, are they applicable to B2B? etc. There’s a lot of really good stuff that B2C have done in their journey that we’re absolutely leveraging, which are really powerful ways to do that: the power of word; video is a fairly new medium in the world of B2B. And so, for the first time ever, we’re able to convey emotion through the power of video or words and music and we’ve only just touched the surface as far as I’m concerned. David: And so, with the book, the whole concept of humanizing B2B, humanizing with a Z listener, if you want to find the book. Paul: Yeah, trying to capture the American market. David: Quite right too. So, what does that actually look like in practice? What does a more human approach to B2B marketing or B2B content look like? Paul: Yes, I think it’s important to say that when I talk about humanizing B2B, at its heart, I see it as a modern-day philosophy, that actually promotes the human side of marketing as much as the functional side. So, we’re not trying to take away all the good stuff that B2B is known for, we’re just trying to add something to it. And most B2B brands are built on this single dimension of what I call competency. For example, you make a good product, you scale it, you use automation tools, you’re operationally savvy, you build demand engine, and so forth. And all this comes with the territory of being professional, talking in jargon, using the colour blue, being ordinary, looking like everybody else in your category looks. And hopefully, if you’ve got all that right, you can be the trusted advisor. And all that stuff is so cookie-cutter, playbook-driven, every brand in every category – most of the companies look and feel and talk the same way. And so, it’s definitely lost its edge. And I think that when I talk about the dimension of likability, as well as the dimension of competency, and I don’t mean likeability as it relates to people, there’s lots of conversation and narrative about that. I’m talking about likability in the absence of people. So, as you mentioned, through your brand, your content, your emails, your website, and so forth, the language, the way you speak, the way you come across, all those things are incredibly important. And that is this digital likeability. And that, to me, is where the game is won or lost. And with so many buyers whether they’re 60%, 70%, 80%, or 90%, through the buying cycle, before they speak to a sales rep or some form of expert. The opportunity, therefore, to influence people is absolutely huge. And most brands don’t do anything, they still do the tired old, same old stuff. They’re not thinking about how to influence people in that digital journey from an emotional point of view. And I think that’s why B2B is an incredibly exciting place to be right now. David: So, if the listener is nodding away, thinking great I could definitely want to take a step into this territory with my brand with my content? What kind of tips could you give them, to make their content more emotional, or more human? What can they practically do? And how can they sell that to their stakeholders too? Paul: I’d look, first of all, at what other B2B brands are doing, not necessarily in your category but generally, which are the brands out there that have taken a decision to try and put a bit more emotion into their brand. I would also say that I think most B2B agencies are just aching to do more interesting, more creative, more imaginative stuff, you’ve got to take some calculated risks. We are marketeers at the end of the day, we have to balance the demand engine bit, with actually pushing our business and our brands forward. So there needs to be some calculated risk that goes with it all. And we did a campaign for Sage Pay last year. And it was incredibly difficult to understand the way that the marketing team had been set up and the way they’d conventionally done things. And we had to really shift their mindset to take a very subtle, emotional approach with this campaign called your business, your baby, but seven months after the campaign ad ran, we literally doubled all the marketing KPIs that they’d done the previous year. So, there’s proof that this stuff works from just a marketing KPI point of view. But again, we did a campaign for KPMG, where the ask of us as an agency was, how do we dial the emotion in our campaign, and we did this pretty big content piece, it was a £1 million investment that KPMG spent, but they saw a £58 million return of close business opportunity off the back of this changing features campaign. So, if you need a reason to go tell your commercial stakeholders, why you want to experiment and push it – because the growth metrics, increased all the value, increase lifetime value, increase margins, and so forth, are there to be had for the people brave enough to go and make a decision to push on this door. And the book is full of examples of these facts and data points and everything else David: You mentioned to look at people maybe in other parts of B2B that are doing it well and taking inspiration from them. Apart from the couple that you’ve mentioned, is there anyone else in the space that you see and go, yeah, they’re doing it well, you can take some inspiration there? Paul: I will say that I’ve always looked at SAP. So, from an enterprise point of view, I think SAP have always done a really good job of being able to humanise what they do. They made a decision to use consumer tactics like employing Clive Owen as being almost like that character, an ambassador for their brand and being able to use him to narrate their story and build that familiarity and likability. I know that Hewlett Packard have used Christian Slater, again with his wolf campaign. So again, very B2C tactics driven in B2B. But on a lower scale, we’ve worked with brands like Crowdcube, who I think have taken to this whole humanizing notion brilliantly well, and again have seen significant business results off the back of it. But there’s a brilliant commercial on YouTube for a company called Waze which is using these inflatable signpost dolls that signpost things across America – and it’s just hilarious. It’s a brilliant piece of storytelling, it gets the message across in a really interesting, engaging way. So, I think there’s loads of good stuff happening in different pockets. And I guess you’re just trying to make it more mainstream. I think that’s the journey we’re on, as B2B marketeers is just for this not to be on the fringes anymore, but to be more mainstream, and the more we see, the more we experiment, the more data points say this stuff works, the more it’ll happen. David: So why do you think this is so relevant right now, it certainly seems like it’s having a moment. Why do you think it is? Paul: So, you’re absolutely right, David. It is having a moment. I think B2B marketing in its modern form is on an incredible learning curve. We are 50 years behind B2C in terms of leveraging emotion and positioning brands beyond the functional nature of what they do. But the good news is, we’re catching up fast. Emotion is catching people’s attention it feels like there’s a bit of a perfect storm of opportunity, which is brewing. And I say that because I think, customers are less loyal than ever. The pandemic has meant people are more open-minded to exploring different vendors, etc. I think marketers are fed up with doing same old, same old, that speeds or feeds marketing, so they’re crying out for some kind of change. They’re also fed up with chasing technology or product differentiators as strategy when it’s easier sometimes to differentiate emotionally. I think grabbing keeping people’s attention is harder than it has ever been. And we talk about storytelling being something new. But storytellers have got to compete with storytellers these days. It’s incredibly difficult. It’s not just about telling a story; you’ve got to tell a bloody good story. I think business buyers and decision-makers have generally become a bit more compassionate. I think we’ve seen the millennial buyer. And definitely, as we see senior buyers eek past the age of 40, we tend to be more value-driven less about ourselves more conscious about the planet, and family and life and all those kinds of things like that. And, finally alongside the fact that COVID is jolted people’s thinking, and this fear of being irrelevant in a post-pandemic world is actually scaring people into wanting to look at their brand and do things differently. We’ve also got all this amazing research from Binet and Field and the B2B LinkedIn institute that actually put in some numbers and metrics down. So, I think if you put all that stuff into the mixer, it feels like there’s real momentum, and that moment is happening. David: If the listener wants to find out more, they want to get in touch with you and ask you stuff, they want to buy the book. Where can they do things like that? Paul: So, the book is available on Amazon and all good bookstores. I can’t get enough of saying that – it’s my thing. David: It really is, like you’re actually in shops. Paul: Exactly. And if £16 is too much, you can get the Kindle version for a bargain busting 99p. You can track me down on LinkedIn, you can go to the agency website, which is roosterpunk.com. There is a specific HumanizingB2B.com website. And if you’re waiting for the audiobook, because I’m a big audio fan, that’s probably another nine months away I’m afraid. Or connect with me on LinkedIn, there’s loads of places to find me. David: Thank you, Paul, you’ve given us a lot to think about there. And the book plug was expertly done, I must say, we’ll include a link to it in the show notes for you. Barbara, I know you’re a big advocate of using emotions in B2B. So, what stood out there for you? Barbara: I think, for me, listening to Paul, it really resonated. Very often when we’re communicating with our B2B potential customers or customers, we tend to see a job title and see that first and foremost, and actually, we’re all just human beings, we all have needs, we don’t differentiate ourselves, we don’t take off one cap and put on another at different moments. So, we are irrational, we are emotional people. Even people in procurement, that’s what they are. They’re emotional. We might not always think that, but they are. And I think the reality is, we very much have to work out what type of mission that they’re on, how we can support them, and what is the way they want to be supported? Or do they want encouragement to do they want support and understanding that will help us understand how we are best partnering with them. With B2B and digital, it’s got so complex, we’ve got so many buzzwords now. And I think for a lot of people, they’re still clinging to the past. And digital’s scary, they have this fear that digital stops the relationships that were so valuable. They think that sales reps are going to be eradicated because of automation and digital channels. Sales Reps will always be needed, they are incredibly valuable. You basically need to focus on crafting the messaging that you can automate in the moments that should be service messaging, and let the sales reps, that the salespeople who are incredibly good at developing relationships, be in those moments that really matter. Driving deeper relationships and understanding how to add value to the customer. For me, that’s the opportunity for B2B marketing. And that was the overriding message the whole way. Listening to Paul, it was like, yes, finally, I’m hearing the magic words. David: Absolutely. So, do you think the buying journey in B2B has been changing quite a bit? I know people have been saying, for a long time, people are doing more and more and more of their research before they engage with a salesperson. And I guess COVID has probably kicked that percentage even higher because you can’t go out to events and meet people. So, although, of course, a lot of the time people will buy a product, because they like the salesperson and the salesperson recommended it and that’s the end of it. But do you think there’s an extent to which content is taking over some of the lifting as far as that rapport building, or not so much. Barbara: I think content has such an important role. I think what content allows us to do is start having a conversation earlier. And start really making sure that what we have to offer and what solutions we can provide our customers with, they’re able to do some of the research beforehand. There is nothing worse than when you’re at the start of a potential journey when you’re doing the awareness and consideration and suddenly someone is telling you the solution when you haven’t worked out what the problem is. For me content is the opportunity for whenever I’m being a B2B buyer, I’m having to work out exactly what I need, not what someone’s telling me I need and what someone’s gadgets and gizmos and features are telling me but what is the best resolution. And for me, I always go to referrals, I always go and ask people who I know have had a similar problem, or I get into Google fast, and I want to read articles, I want to read the features and functionality. And I want to read people’s blogs and understand how they’re helping customers just like me to solve problems. So, for me, it’s giving me my automation process, I’m unwilling to speak to a salesperson at that moment. I don’t want to have a demo. I want to just do the research. When I’m ready, and I’m shortlisted, then I want to have a demo, but don’t try and sell to me before I’m ready and content is perfect for doing the pre-sale. David: And that shortlisting process? Is it fair to say that’s maybe, in B2B, a bit less rational than people give it credit for, a lot of that’s down to how you feel about the company? Right? How you feel about the brand? Barbara: Absolutely. I think a lot of times we forget how much brand purpose actually plays in in all of this, and especially in B2B. Brand purpose is very, very important in CX and in marketing. And the reality is, sometimes you have a gut feeling about a brand, or a product, or a service and it’s not rational. But that gut feeling is dictating and it’s not price led, it’s not, I have made some decisions where I was like, I really don’t know why I made that decision – but it felt right at the time. And these are not small decisions. And these are B2B purchases on a grand scale. So, for me, we have to understand that people, when they are coming to consider your solution for what they need, they don’t always understand it. So don’t go and do lots of focus groups. And don’t spend lots of time asking people why they do things and then replicating content for that. What you need to do is understand what’s the job to be done? What are the products and features that they really need to not what you want to sell? And help them understand how your solution solves their problem via testimonials. To me, I don’t understand why everybody runs away from testimonials. I’m like, get them out there. let everybody see how you solve that. David: Yeah, absolutely. Because a lot of it is testimonials, you’ve got the social proof. It’s a lot about helping people to feel comfortable and to feel safe a lot of the time in B2B. You’re a big fan of behavioural economics. I know. And you gave a really good webinar with Steve Kemish on Propolis. And that plays into that, doesn’t it? The different ways that people make decisions, and whether you make a slow decision or whether you make a snap decision. And actually, a lot of the time in B2B, we might assume it’s one. But really, it’s, it’s the other, right? Barbara: Absolutely. It’s so easy to get stuck in making assumptions about how people purchase your products. And I think that is so true in B2B, it’s even true in B2C let’s be honest. We dictate we create these journeys and say this is how someone exactly behaves, and it’s not. There are so many intricacies for how we behave. What people forget very frequently, which I love, is as soon as you purchase something there’s social permissibility – you are now at risk of making the wrong decision. So, you are actually naturally trying to do a natural referral programme with anybody else that you can because the more people that you can sell this exact same product to – it means you were right. So, we actually are at our highest advocacy and referral as soon as you handed money over not once you’ve got the product. You’re actually in a risk pattern, and you want to take that risk away from you, so you want to diversify that risk, which nobody uses referral straightaway. David: Yeah, and because I suppose the features and benefits, they have their role to play, but again it’s almost post-rationalisation, right? There’s always this thing that the heart is the Oval Office, and the head is the Press Office. And it’s like, you’ve made your mind up and then you have to justify the decision that you’ve already made – to yourself, or to your buying unit, and to the rest of your organisation in B2B. And I think it probably has a lot more in common with – oh, I bought this more expensive car because they’re more reliable, that’s a better-known brand or something like that – rather than just, I wanted one. But I think a lot of the time it’s the same thing in B2B, it’s in Thinking Fast and Slow, right? It’s type one and type two decision making, is that right? Barbara: Absolutely. A lot of people, we don’t know why we think certain things. Now, there aren’t many decisions that are absolutely set in stone, especially when it comes to purchases that you will not change. These are big decisions that impact who you are at your absolute core. The rest, you’re actually making up why you’ve done a lot of it. I’ve spent a lot of time doing focus groups, which I find highly entertaining. And I remember a very long time ago, doing one for Aldi, understanding new crisp variants, and I literally sat in a room, listening to people post-rationalise why they buy crisps. And I was just like, this is crazy, you walk down an aisle, right? Like, come on, there wasn’t that much to this. And I think from that moment on, I was like, we as human beings don’t always know why we make decisions, a lot of our decisions can be flipped incredibly fast. And we can do a huge amount of research; we can absolutely be believing that we have the right solution. And then suddenly, either someone can influence us, or somebody can just land with an incredibly simple, valuable value proposition in the last moments, and convert us at rapid pace. And I think everybody’s experienced that – where suddenly you’re almost at the purchasing, and you put something down and lift something up really fast. And then what? And that’s it. That’s it on this tiny little scale, where it’s just the: Oh, there I go. And I think a lot of times, it’s everybody, with behavioural economics. I’m really interested in the fact that, behavioural economics and CX are fascinating because everybody’s trying to manage and own the whole journey. Let’s plot out the whole journey. Let’s own all these key moments of truth. And I don’t worry about all the key moments, there’s actually probably two or three that are actually the key moments work out what they are, and be in those moments, spend your money where your competitors spreading themselves too thin. And you can hijack the brain and get it to be you as the last decision, because it’s usually the first and the last that are the pieces, all the stuff in between – you can change your mind incredibly rationally. David: So, in a B2B buying process, what would that look like? Barbara: Oh, now you’re asking me that the big questions, I think it’s making sure a lot of times when we create content for websites and looking at the sales reps, and the onboarding stage as well, we ensure we spend so much time in that top of funnel. But as we’re coming down, we get lesser and lesser content and less pointed, less sticky. We’ll just start throwing blogs in, we may do a white paper, but actually it’s that bottom funnel. That’s the real key. Spend your time thinking about: What content do they need in the tiniest of bite sizes? And what are the messages that they need at that final moment? What can you tell them that’s better about the services or the products or what’s going to solve their problems more in those moments? Because that’s the key magic, that absolute top awareness. And for me, bottom funnel, getting those exactly right, focused on what their actual needs are, what their expectations are, show them in those moments how easy the onboarding is because that’s usually the biggest fear. Whoever’s buying, it is nervous that whoever is going to use it isn’t going to use it. So, show from testimonials from users not from buyers, at that moment show how easy it is. Tell them that the onboarding was automated, and it only took X amount of time, and it saved X amount of money. And then show someone who actually went through the onboarding. I think very often we keep talking about ourselves, instead of showing our customers people just like them, and why they made those decisions. Before we finish this month’s episode, it’s time for our copywriting tip of the month. This time, it’s from Radix, consultant writer, and last month’s guest co-host, George Reith. George: My name’s George, I’m a senior copywriter and consultant at Radix. And my favourite copywriting tip is to keep a running record of phrases that you use a lot in your copy. Whether you choose to do that on a piece of paper, digitally, or on lots of post-it notes stuck to your monitor and desk, I find having that list of phrases you use a lot means you can avoid using them too much. I find that helps me keep my copy a bit more varied. David: Thanks, George. If there’s anybody that I would take advice from on how not to be boring, it’s you. Barbara, does that one resonates with you? Barbara: Honestly, I love that. I’m going to start doing it and actually understand what my buzzwords are. Because I’m sure my clients are going mad with the number of times I say, certain words that I’m not aware of. So, thank you very much, George, I’m going to let you know how I get on. David: I want to know what’s on your list. Barbara: I’m scared, I’m scared. David: I’m afraid that is about all we have time for this month. Now, listener, it might not have escaped your attention. That next time is our 100th episode. And I have to tell you, it is going to be all change. We have a slightly new format coming, a shorter running time and a new name for the podcast. So, look out for that. We will still have great guests. We’re starting with Doug Kessler next time. And we’ll keep the same focus on helping you get the most out of your B2B content. So, if you’re a subscriber and you see a new B2B content podcast appear in September, don’t worry. It’s just us, just a new name and a new theme tune. I really can’t wait for you to hear it. Before then, though. Barbara, could you thank our contributors for this episode and also remind the listener where they can get in touch. Barbara: Of course, thanks again to Paul Cash for helping us put the human back into B2B. And thanks, George for that wonderful copywriting tip. But most importantly, thank you, the listener for joining us, it’s been a lot of fun. And don’t forget, if you’d like to contact the show, you can do that on email: podcast@radix-communications.com or on Twitter: @Radixcom. And if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, a review would be marvellous. David: And thank you Barbara for co-hosting. I do hope you’ve enjoyed it. Has it been alright? Barbara: It’s been wonderful. So much fun. David: That’s kind of you. Listener, we’ll see you next time with a fresh new format, new name, and Doug Kessler. But until then, remember, science has discovered 27 distinct human emotions, but nobody has ever experienced the desire to enable website notifications. David and Barbara: Bye. Acknowledgements and thanks Firstly, a huge Radix thank you to Barbara Stewart. It was wonderful to have you as our co-host for the first time – hopefully, it won’t be the last. Thanks also to Paul Cash, for reminding us about the human side of B2B copy in that fantastic interview. And, of course, showing us all how it’s done with that smooth book plug. And George, thank you for that brilliant copywriting tip of the month. And for the eagle ‘eared’ listener… Yes, this was Episode 99 of Good Copy, Bad Copy, which can only mean one thing. Next month we are celebrating our 100th episode! And we’re celebrating in style – with a slightly new format, a shorter running time, and a new name. So, watch out for that next month, and when you subscribe and see that brand new B2B content podcast appear in September, know that it’s still us – and get ready to hear our exciting new sound. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash The post Podcast 99: Why we need emotion in B2B appeared first on Radix.

In this month’s episode of Good Copy, Bad Copy, we’re talking about how to make your B2B content readable and accessible for the widest possible audience. And who better to talk to on this subject than Sarah Winters, founder of Content Design London? In our feature interview, David and Sarah discuss how our readers really take in information… and how we can make our B2B content as readable and accessible, even when writing about technical subjects. Radix consultant writer George Reith is co-hosting, and talks to David about using contractions in B2B copy. Can they be a shortcut to friendlier sounding B2B content? And when are they best avoided to boost readability? And as always, we’re sharing another tip from our own team of experienced copywriters. This month Consultant Copywriter Kieran Haynes is on hand with a counterintuitive way to beat the clock when you’re on deadline. You’ll find a full transcript of our podcast at the end of this post. What steps can B2B Marketers take to make their content clear and accessible?  Between 2010 and 2014, Sarah Winters and her team at the Government Digital Service invented the discipline of Content Design, applying new techniques that shifted the focused to user-centred content. According to Sarah, a lot of people approach writing B2B content differently to content created for consumer markets. Sarah shared some simple things to keep in mind that will boost accessibility and readability for your B2B reader. Remember your reader is human… just like you Essentially readability is about talking to the human; the fact your user is representing a business shouldn’t change that. So, think about the way people take in information. Then, consider what they’re trying to achieve – whether that’s registering for your latest webinar, or gaining a deeper understanding of a technical subject in an eBook. Finally, serve them the information they need  to complete their task, in the clearest way you can. User researchers are your new best friends It goes without saying that strong user research makes for better B2B content and streamlined online journeys. But it also eases the content sign-off process with stakeholders. You’ll find challenges and push-backs are resolved more easily when you can show your content decisions are insight-led and backed by research. Some jargon is good (yes, we really mean that) B2B has a bit of a bad rep for loving a buzzword. We’re still not fans of those. But sometimes a specialist term is really the right word to use for your audience. Sarah suggests the best approach to technical language and jargon is to offer an explanation the first time you use it on a page, and make sure that the words around it act as markers that offer context. Tiny changes can make a big difference to accessibility If your content is not accessible, it’s not useful. To boost accessibility in your B2B content, Sarah suggests thinking about language first. Small changes to sentence structure and length are an easy place to start. And will make all the difference to everyone who reads your content. At Content Design London, Sarah’s team don’t talk about Plain English, which sounds boring and makes people switch off. Instead they champion Clear English. And being clear is all-important for frictionless B2B marketing content. Making content easy to read is a great starting point for making it accessible to more of your target audience. Sarah shares many more insights and examples with us in the interview, so have a listen… and if you’d like to know more, it’s worth diving into the Readability Guidelines wiki and Sarah’s game-changing book, “Content Design”. In the rest of the podcast, you’ll also hear an insightful conversation into the best use of contractions in B2B copy between David and George. Spoiler alert: if you find yourself writing shouldn’t’ve, you’re doing it all wrong. In this episode, you’ll find… 00:57 – A warm welcome for our Radix guest co-host, George Reith. 02:18 – David talks about accessibility and readability with Sarah Winters. 17:15 – George and David discuss jargon, the best use of contractions in B2B writing, and the apps and algorithms that can help boost readability scores in your writing. 35:10 – We announce the winners on our Content Design London resource packs, and hear their winning tips for making B2B content readable and accessible. Thanks to everyone who entered and shared their advice with us. 41:00 – Kieran’s copywriting tip of the month: how to plan your writing time. Was this your favourite episode yet? We’d love to hear your thoughts. Tweet us at @radixcom on Twitter or pop us a message on podcast@radix-communications.com. (Or, if you fancy your chances of appearing on the podcast, send a voice memo our way.) How to listen: You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player And don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify Transcript: Good Copy Bad Copy 98: Readability and Accessibility Speakers: Sarah Winters, Founder at Content Design London David McGuire, Creative Director at Radix George Reith, Consultant Writer at Radix Kieran Haynes, Consultant Writer at Radix Sarah Winters: The people who are the most well read, don’t want to marvel at your GCSE English skills… David McGuire: Hello listener and thank you for joining us for episode 98 of Good Copy, Bad Copy, the B2B copywriting podcast. We’re really very grateful for your company, and this month we’re going to be talking about how to make your B2B content readable and accessible to the widest possible audience. And we have an in-depth interview with an expert on that very subject: Sarah Winters from Content Design London. My name is David McGuire, I’m Creative Director at Radix Communications, which is a B2B tech copywriting agency, and I’m delighted to be joined by a familiar guest co-host for this episode. It’s the smooth sounds of Radix consultant writer, George Reith. George, welcome. George: Hi David, and hi listener, thank you both for letting me come back again. David: It’s always a pleasure to have you here apart from that you made me sound bad. George: I was just going to say it’s sad that you’ve given me such a warm welcome. I wish I got this one kind of welcome everywhere I went really. David: I can’t speculate why that might not be the case. So speaking of going places, I think by the time this is broadcast, or podcast. The Freedom Day will have come and gone. Are you feeling the freedom yet? George: David, I’d ask you know, are any of us ever truly free? Even when Freedom Day comes and goes, I’ll still be bound by the meat cage that is my body, and pinned by the weight of existential dread, so… David: Okay so moving swiftly on. George, I’m sure you know the drill by now please can you tell the listener, how they can get in touch with us. George: Sure thing. Listener, if you have any comments, questions or suggestions you can get in touch with us via email – podcast@radix-communications.com. Or on Twitter – @radixcom David: Thank you very much. George: So David, you’ve wanted to get this month’s guest onto the podcast for quite a while, haven’t you? David: Yeah that is absolutely true, actually. So, when I saw Sarah Winters speak at The Copywriting Conference, it completely changed how I thought about those conversations that you have with stakeholders about making content clear and readable. I mean, she’s genuinely just one of the best speakers I’ve ever seen. Sarah is the founder of Content Design London, and she’s the author of one of my favourite books, and she was really fundamental in making gov.uk an accessible site. So she knows a thing or two about that awkward chat where you get accused of dumbing things down. I was obviously really delighted when she agreed to talk about making B2B content clear and accessible. So I started by asking her, “Why should a B2B marketer care about readability anyway?” Sarah Winters: It’s interesting because a lot of people will pull B2B away from any other market and it’s daft, because there are humans in businesses, there are humans that run businesses. So essentially readability is about talking to the human. The fact that they represent a business is neither here nor there, really. The way that we take in information and the way that we process it in our brains goes one way, regardless of your language, regardless of your culture, regardless of where you’re sitting on a neurobiological level, it goes in one way. If you have a cognitive challenge or you have a disability, then of course your other senses, or the other ways that you take in information, will do their funky thing but essentially it’s still processed the same way, unless you’ve had like a lesion on the brain from when you were born. So I find it really odd that people care about readability, depending on the way that you define it, in their day-to-day lives. But they completely divorce it when it comes to business. They’re like, in my day to day life I want you to get to the point, I want you to be amusing or engaging, or, you know, funny. I want you to be tearful, I want you to be, whatever. But I want to essentially complete your task, but when I’m at work I want something completely different. That doesn’t happen. Never happens. You are a human and you bring everything with you, all the time. You do change slightly when you go to work, and you will maybe introduce specialist terms, or jargon, and that’s fine. There are ways of getting around that so that you’re inclusive and specific. But readability, depends on how you define it, and why you don’t care about it, rather than why you should care about it, if you see what I mean. David: Yeah, so, how would you define, are there ways of defining that you think are particularly helpful? Sarah: For us, we just term everything as accessible and inclusive. David: Right. Sarah: A lot of people will talk about plain English, and we tend not to. We changed it a little while ago, we’ll now talk about clear English, because if it’s plain, people think boring. And if people think readable, they think, boring. And that’s not the case at all. It just means that you’re being clear, and I think though a lot of people, particularly in a B2B setting, they need to be clear because there’s competition for everything. Right? If you’re not frictionless. If you’re not able to get people through a process, or into your sphere to become your brand champions, whatever it is, if you can’t do that in an easy clear way your competitors will. And you will have lost out. David: I think one of the things I guess that comes into it, is where you talked about the technical specifics and the jargon that people need to use. Is that something that you find in the clients that you’ve worked with? Sarah: Yeah, it’s changing things. Nuances, like, “I’d like a 72 word sentence please with all high punctuation”. It’s like: “Why? You know that you’re going to dump 90% of your audience once you start hitting 14 to 19 words, don’t you? And it’s just about why are you losing so many people?” That’s my kind of question, but you could do really easy things with your content. To make it open and inclusive. David: So, what sort of things would you suggest? Sarah: So, one is actually to know your user journey. And I don’t mean the sales funnel, I mean the user journey. Nobody wakes up in the morning thinking a brand new idea, you’ve got seven to nine, or seven to twelve, unconscious thoughts before you can make a conscious decision about anything. That language is coming from somewhere. And is it the specialised language or not? So by understanding the journey that people go through to get to you, and what language they’re bringing with them, and what preconceived ideas that they have, you can actually work out where those specialist terms should be. So, if you work from a user-centered perspective, you would have, I don’t know, social media and mainstream media and all of these things that kind of inform the way that you think about something.  and you can use more lay terms there, and introduce specialist terms. The way to introduce specialist term is to just introduce it the first time you use on a page. That’s it. But often people will pull things that should be two or three steps down the line, up-front. And that’s where they lose people. And nobody by the way, is using terms like “synergy”, or whatever it is that you’re using. You know what I mean, you can use them, but know where it is in the journey. That’s the crux of it. If you’re introducing a term, like I say, use it the first time you use it on the page, and work out all the words around it, so you’ve got context markers throughout a paragraph. Any paragraph, doesn’t matter how big or small, you will have context markers. So your brain is kind of telling you something about the content before it happens. If those are too heavy. You will get people switching off. And again, they’re going to go to your competitors, they’re not going to stay with you. So you need to work out how much emphasis you want to put on your jargon and on your specialist terms. And what it’s going to cost you. So if you have a 72 word sentence, loaded with jargon, loaded with buzzwords, you can do eye tracking, you can get eye trackers really cheaply now, and watch people skim through the middle of it, get to the end and either bounce out or carry on. But where they trust you less, because you can test for that as well, or that they’re disengaging with you. So you’ve really got to have that conversation with stakeholders, I normally term it as, “Do you want them to read it, or do you want them to act on it?” Because often, those can be two different things. David: Sure. Sarah: And then with the reading thing, “Do you want them to read it, or do you want them to engage?” Because those are two different things. And so you have to have that balance because if you get boring the brain shuts down and then that’s that David: Because people will say, our audience are very, very, very, very smart, they’re very, very educated. If it doesn’t sound like a PhD thesis, no one’s going to read it. But that’s not true. Sarah: That’s not remotely true. There was a study, I’m trying to think of it off the top of my head, where somebody was saying, the most intelligent people on the planet are the most well-read. And the people that are the most well-read. Don’t want to marvel at your GCSE English skills. David: True. Sarah: They want to get what you have to say, and apply it to their own lives, to their own context because they’ve got a lot of reading to do, they’ve got a lot to get through. And it’s not to wade through your sentence structure. And often readability, accessibility, usability has nothing to do with intelligence. It has more to do with boredom, Are you boring me, because you’ve got a long sentence, you’re not getting to the point fast enough, you are not engaged. I’m not talking about funny cat GIFs, or whatever, shoving those everywhere, not that. People come with a task, again, knowing your user journey. Where’s the task ? Where am I able to be amused? Where am I able to be engaged? And where do I want to do a task? And then reflecting that journey back to them. That is the most effective way of getting to people. David: I’ve noticed that one of the things that you’ve researched is the impact of contractions on readability and accessibility. I think as copywriters, particularly in B2B, you know, people want the copy to sound friendly, they want it to sound like conversational, that you’re talking to a human being. Contractions are a huge go-to. It’s like, yes, use them, you know, please. It’s not as simple as that, is it? There’s another side to it. Sarah: Yeah, there is. Jo Schofield did a Medium post. She was working for Co-Op or DWP at the time, and they did some testing on contractions. English as a second language, particularly, find contractions very difficult. And other people are looking for the word, ‘not’. So, when we read, you have three eye fixation zones and the third one is where your brain says, “Do I need to read that word or not?”. Now the word ‘not’ could be the only thing that turns that sentence or that paragraph from positive to negative. And when people have that in mind because they are task orientated rather than engagement orientated, and they miss it, they could literally read a piece, think it’s positive, and it won’t be. It’ll be negative, because it’s literally hanging off an apostrophe. So you need to be careful. Of course, if you go, “would not, could not…” Well that has a tone, but remember, it’s only one contraction into two words, that’s it. The rest of your piece can handle it. So if you think that your, your entire work is hanging off a contraction, then I would probably look at all the things that are going on in the page. But, just be aware that particularly negative contractions can be difficult for English as a second language, and people with learning disabilities. There’s 1.4 million people in this country with a learning disability. They have jobs. They will be on the other end of the business that you are trying to engage with, so just, is it worth it? That is the question. David: That seems like a good way to segue into making things accessible for people with disabilities of one kind or another. Readability and accessibility are quite closely linked, in that sense. Sarah: I think they should be. If it’s not accessible, then it’s not useful. Basically, there’s 13.9 million registered disabled people in this country. That’s not even including temporary disabilities like migraines, stress – which a lot of people in this country will understand now. David: So, I mean in a B2B context, when people are making content for B2B marketing, what are the main things they should be thinking of from an accessibility point of view? Sarah: Probably, language first. What languages and where. Sentence structure and length. These are all tiny things that just make such a massive difference. And it is that jargon, it’s that jargon. There is a stack of research out there, that people can use to kind of bash their stakeholders with. And even in this country, a B2B example will be the Health Regulatory Authority took the government to court, because their website was legally signed off by lawyers, it was 100% legally compliant, but it was confusing because there was too much content on the pages. So a High Court judge declared it in favour of the defendant – in this case, Richmond Pharmaceutical Company. And so the government had to pay loads of money, and loads of charges, and all this sort of thing. Because the website was confusing. So a High Court judge set a precedent in this country: you can be legally correct. If you’re confusing, you can be taken to court for it. David: Where can the listener find out more about you, and more about the resources that you share? Sarah: So everything is on Content Design.London. We have a Readability Guidelines Wiki – it’s in the book as well. It’s in a free wiki that you can just go and see. And it’s everything that I’ve talked about, has research backing this up. And so when you go into a conversation, you can pretty much stay quiet and say, “You see this research, you see this research, you see this research, what you want to do?”. So if you have a look at Content Design London, or we’re on Twitter, which is @contentdesignln. And we put a lot of our research out there as well, so everything that we say is backed up by usability. David: You said this was a market you really wanted to talk to. So, what did you really want to say to B2B marketers, while you have their ear. Sarah: I see you. I know how difficult it can be. We’ve done it as well, so I know how difficult it can be to explain to stakeholders that they do not need to have all the marketing, and all the jargon, and put out everything that they’ve ever thought, ever, onto the internet. There is research out there and your best friend will be a trained user researcher. Because they can go out and get videos, really quickly, of people failing and getting bored, which you may not be able to get from your analytics, but you will be not grabbing them to convert. So, your best friend will be a user researcher. David: Thank you so much, Sarah, it’s great to finally hear from you on the podcast, and so much practical advice for our listener. George What stood out there for you? George: So what stood out for me, is that I think Sarah has somehow dived into my brain, or at least my copy, and is personally calling me out for my use of contractions. In all seriousness, a lot of really interesting points here and things that I sort of, I think, take for granted sometimes. Maybe just do by default, and suddenly listening to that I’m now starting to interrogate that a little bit more. Because to me, I’m just looking at contractions all the time, obviously it makes things sound more casual, it’s like a free way to kind of get a bit more flow in your copy, and especially when you’re writing about something quite dense and technical and abstract and complicated. Having that kind of free, easy way in the copy make things a little smoother, a little easier to read, to a native English speaker, of course, that’s the default for me. But obviously I’ve foolishly not really considered how it might read for somebody who doesn’t have English as their native language and might be using it as a second language, and therefore contractions suddenly reduce readability. That was an interesting one for me. David: Yeah, I mean because you’ve got the whole thing with English as a second language, or you’ve got whether they’re reading on, say, a mobile device, which adds a whole bunch of cognitive load anyway. I get it ,but still, at the same time, from a voice and tone point of view, if you don’t use contractions at least some of the time, your brand can sound like a pompous ass. So, I think, I think there’s a balance, our colleague John actually wrote a really good blog post about this, he had a dive into the research. I think, you know, the bit that Sarah was saying about the negative contractions, in particular, I think those are the ones that are particularly important. I think, some kind of simple positive contractions are I think fine. But then there are ones that are either excessively complicated or they’re negative. You know, if you find yourself writing ‘shouldn’t’ve’, or something like that, then maybe think twice about it. But I think there’s a balance, I think maybe some contraction use is okay. Are you one for being very standard within the client’s brand, copy, about which words you will contract, and which words you won’t? Because I tend to feel like, again in the spirit of writing as you’d speak, I wouldn’t always contract, or not contract, certain words. And, so I mean, I’m actually deliberately inconsistent about it in the content that I write, but I don’t know if that would just really wind people up. George: Yeah, it’s interesting, actually, because I, I think I’m alarmingly consistent at just contracting absolutely any word, where it’s appropriate, and probably some where it’s inappropriate to be consistent. David: You’re just alarmingly consistent in general. George: If you say so. But I’m a big ‘contraction-er’, I don’t know if that’s a term. I’m going to make it one. David: You are now. George: So yeah, but this is really interesting. The idea that some, some stuff adds more cognitive load when it’s contracted than others. So the negative element is a really valuable point. Especially, Like Sarah said, when the only thing that signifies you’re talking about negative is the contraction. But then it’s also easy to miss if you’re skimming through a document. So I guess there must be a line there right of sort of where it seems inconsistent versus where actually you’re doing the reader a favour, and I think finding that line is going to be an interesting one and I guess it will depend massively on what you’re writing. I suppose, like if it’s, you know, quite short, to the point important message about what a reader should do about something, like a practical guide, maybe you don’t want to contract as much. But if it’s a much longer piece maybe contractions would be okay, because you’ve got more text to kind of work around and show when you’re switching to a negative. Although, that’s contradicting myself straight away, maybe a longer piece you can get away with less contractions. Because it’s such a long piece, there’s already a lot of cognitive load associated with it. David: I think so. Yeah I think so. I think some of it is about where you are in the document and what you’re trying to do. I think sometimes you can be at a part of the document where you want to slow things down, and be really serious. You know, like I said, sometimes in an email, you know, you might want to say, “we won’t bother with so and so…”  or in another sense you might say, “we will not do this”. George: Yeah, I just wanted to say about how refreshing it was to hear somebody talking about B2B content, and saying hey, a little bit of jargon is fine. And that’s nice because whenever I attend a copywriting conference, someone always goes like, “jargon is the worst thing you got to get rid of all of it, that’s the main culprit of overly complex writing in B2B.” And I sort of get where they’re coming from and obviously some jargon is less helpful than others but you know. Yeah, it’s nice to hear somebody really knows what they’re talking about saying hey, you know, jargon is how people understand their industry. And sometimes it’s fine. Assuming you can get the rest of the sentence to be pretty straightforward, having specific terms that apply to that industry is important and useful. Those terms do mean something. And it’d be silly not to use them. David: It’s all about speaking the language isn’t it. It’s all about speaking their language that they actually use. I think the issue that we have, particularly in B2B writing and B2B tech writing, is that people have come to, I don’t want to say misunderstand what jargon means but certainly the meaning of the word jargon has expanded, the accepted meaning. So, strictly speaking, it is that the terminology of your industry. So we’re both copywriters, I can talk about an Oxford comma and you’ll know what an Oxford comma is. Now, but it’s kind of expanded to when people talk about jargon to include all of the kind of business bullshit terms that go in. You know, “oh it’s innovative solutioneering” George: Synergistic! I actually I don’t think ‘synergistic’ has actually been used by people for like, what 15 years at least. That used to be the standard, okay here’s you know, business BS right here. David: Yeah, “Let’s leverage our solutions”, all that stuff. But, you know, I think that because there still is a certain element of technical specificity, which is hard for me to say, on a Friday. If you think about it, what I like to do is think about the water cooler or the break room where your audience the, you know, if you think about the, what I like to do is to think about the like the water cooler or the break room where your audience works. And if you think about two engineers or two technical people. Two experts, you know, they’re not going to say, “the big machine’s broken again, the red light is flashing. It’s hurting. Can someone make it less sad? Can they come and make it all better?” They’re going to talk about the specifics. But neither are they going to say, “Ah! The Flugelbinder is operating at sub-optimal efficiency once again, this is a most inconvenient turn of events. We should arrange for a Maintenance Solution to leverage his expertise forthwith.” George: I’ve never written about a Flugelbinder before, but I really want to now. It sounds quite exciting. David: I’m going to have to invent it. So that you can. See, there’s a bit in between, where we use technical specifics but in short, easy to understand sentences. Because when you talk about talking their language in a B2B tech context, you talk about technical specifics but presented in a simple way. George: Yeah absolutely and I think as well, if he tried too hard to simplify something, and avoid those terms that that people are actually using, I think it just sounds weird, you know. Like an engineer would look at it and be like, “Why aren’t you talking about these things?”. “What are you talking about? You’re not using any of the terms I would expect to see in a document about, I don’t know whatever it would be, DevOps or what have you…” I don’t think there’s any point avoiding it for the sake of it, right? David: It’s all about the context. It’s all about the audience and speaking their authentic language. I think when you’re talking with jargon, a lot of complexity gets dragged in. And so, it was a while ago now, but you did look into readability and things for us and you wrote that fabulous blog that has sections of different Flesh Kincaid grade levels, and that kind of thing. I mean, do you find yourself ever kind of looking to algorithms and things just to kind of give you a steer if your content is in the right kind of area readability wise? George: Yeah I did try to. I do, but in a quite a gentle way. I mean, you know I’ve been doing this a fair few years now. So, more often than not, on a default job I’ll kind of just assume the stuff I write is at least mostly readable, like you’d like to think after eight years I can at least do that, right? But, if there are special requirements, if I’m writing something that’s definitely going to be translated into other languages, then I suddenly think, okay, well, the burden of readability here is going to be greater, because you know there’s a lot of stuff that will translate quite poorly. Or make the translators job the hell on earth and I don’t want to do that. I’ll run through stuff, just to make sure I’m certain that nothing is really going to throw a spanner in the works. I do find them useful as well in general, just every now and then, just to make sure things are on track, but I think I get a bit frustrated sometimes with how they’re used in other organisations. So I’ve only had a few clients before that have said, “Right, this piece of writing, it’s got to hit 9 on the Flesh Kincaid grade, anything above a 9 we won’t accept.”  And you know, I’m looking at how that algorithm works and I’m like, yeah, but you know the whole blog is about DevOps solutions and a single phrase in DevOps solutions spikes that algorithm by like a point in whatever sentence. That’s a bad example but you know you get these terms that are quite long quite complicated terms. You can’t like not use them because that’s what the blog is about, and you’re sat there arguing with somebody. “I know you said you needed a 9, but I’ve got, got it as a 9.2 Is that okay?” And as long as people are willing to flex a little bit here and there, I think it’s fine to ask a writer to do that sort of thing. I’ve had some awkward conversations about, no, no, it’s got to be below nine, it has to be. And I’m sat there thinking, I don’t think it’s possible when you’re talking about server virtualisation. there’s too many syllables in that word, I cannot get this down further. And I appreciate I’m going places about this, I have way more thoughts about this topic than I thought, David, you’ve awakened something within me. One more thing I found as well is that I’ve noticed recently I’ve had quite a few clients ask me to run this stuff through the Hemingway app. David: Oh yes? George: And I think the thing that I find interesting about that is, I did a lot of stuff in the Flesh Kincaid reading score. I quite like that, as a readability metric to aim for, because it’s very transparent what it’s calculating. You can look it up, it’s a known thing online. And it’s just sort of the amount of words in a sentence, David: It’s words and syllables. George: Exactly. So that’s great because I can look at it and if my score is high, I know what to do to fix that, I need to go back and reduce the amount of words, reduce the amount of syllables in the words, and I’ll start getting somewhere. Some of these algorithms though, like the Hemmingway app, it didn’t feel quite as obvious or transparent to me. Now I haven’t done a lot of work in it, maybe there is a really obvious algorithm that I just don’t know about yet. But it’s when I don’t know what it’s looking for, I’m there like, how do I start reducing this number? What do I need to do to make this more readable according to this specific app? So I think that’s a bit of a danger there, I prefer something that’s less of a black box, but there we are. David: And you’re a kind of expert on grammar at Radix, as well… George: Well, I wouldn’t call myself an expert I think I’m just by default the guy that was left holding the bag, when people went, “Right, someone needs to train everyone on Grammarly and everyone ran away, and it was just me left standing there.” David: As most technical person in the organisation. With Grammarly you’ve got different flavours, it asks you to suggest which kind of flavour of copy you would like. George: Yeah I’m quite impressed with Grammarly on that front actually. Because I hadn’t used it for a while, and you know I remember seeing early reviews of it, it sounded like it was all quite general. But seeing they’ve now implemented these things, I don’t know how long this has been in there, but now I’ve started using it again. You know, you have these radio buttons, you can dial in, “How technical is the person you’re writing for?’. That kind of thing. “Is this for business, or consumer stuff?”. That’s really cool to be able to narrow that down, but again I do sort of feel sometimes, it’s very simple to use, which is great, but as a result they don’t give you a huge amount of info on all these different things. So I’ve set mine to obviously be for a business context of writing. And then I’ve set it to be for professionals. But I could set it to be for academic people. And I’m like, what would it pick up for academic people that it won’t pick up for professional people? Where’s the line there for Grammarly? I’m sure there’s all sorts of complex rules in place to make a distinct way of writing for both of those people and give you different suggestions. I haven’t played around with it enough yet, but I would love just to have a list of things that I could look at on Grammarly’s website, or a wiki somewhere, or something, so I know what kind of things it’s going to be looking out for. Because, who knows maybe ‘academic’ would be more suitable for some jobs?. I don’t know yet. And I can’t find out unless I start playing around with it. Maybe it’ll be homework for me I don’t know. David: Sarah also talked a bit about making content accessible, as well as readable, to make sure that people with different sort of abilities, and, you know, visual impairments and things, can access your content. Are we seeing our clients doing anything new or different? Or giving us anything kind of standard in the style guide and things? I mean, some things we just, you know, have been left I think in some cases to work out for ourselves as writers. George: Yeah, I mean, you know what I still feel that’s fine what’s happening. I mean you know I would really love to have been able to give you a great answer here of, look at all these clients they’ve been doing all these amazing things, really putting it front and centre. I’m not quite seeing that myself just yet. I may have been unlucky, or maybe I just haven’t asked enough questions for them to talk to me about accessibility thoughts they’ve been having in their content. But you know, I know there are some specific elements of copy though that a lot of people have been talking about industrywide for a while. I know CTAs have kind of been the big one for a while, particularly. I think, there seemed to be an era, about five or six years ago, where every CTA button was “Get it now” or “Learn more”, or something like quite high level and vague. And then I feel like we had a bit of a turning point, where a lot of people picked up that this is awful for screen readers. They’re like, get more info on what get what. And so you’re seeing a lot more specific CTA buttons. Text that says, you know, download the eBook, get the ‘name of the report’. So I was sort of seeing small nudges towards accessibility like that. But for me, it tends to come from like other writers, rather than clients pushing it from the top down. Which is fine, I think, but it’s a shame. I think if more clients started thinking about it and telling their contractors, their writers, their employees, to push these things we might see change happen faster, so I’d love for that. David: Yeah and it might be something that actually we need to get a style guide together and push on it, because it’s not right that people just can’t access your stuff. I mean, from a moral and a business point of view. George: Obviously accessibility is mega important for people who, you know, can’t hear things because of a hearing impairment. But also just in terms of usability for somebody who can hear is, it’s a great thing too. Because you know, if you’re on a crowded bus and you haven’t got any headphones, brilliant. I mean, I used to have that thing, ads are getting smarter about this now, I’m sure you’ve had it where you’re scrolling Facebook or Reddit, or what have you, and you see an ad pop up, and it’s got audio, and no subtitles. And I might actually be quite interested in what this ad is promoting, but at the moment there’s no audio. I’m sat on a bus, I’m not going to turn on audio for an ad and blast that out of out my speakers on this bus, right? No chance, I’m skipping that. But if you’ve got for subtitles, I might look and go like, “Oh look this man’s waiting for a call from someone, but his phone’s waterproof, so it doesn’t matter he dropped it in a puddle”. But, no subtitles? No chance, I’m not buying it. David: I’m chuckling about this elaborate bus story, when actually you’re talking about browsing Facebook in the office. aren’t you? George: Oh yeah, I mean, to be clear I haven’t ridden the bus since the beginning of the pandemic. So yeah I tried to make myself sound really down to earth, “Yeah, I get on the bus too, you know, I do the public transport”. No. I’ve just been a hermit for ages, so no bus and no advert about people dropping phones and puddles. But you can see it happening, right? That that wasn’t a terrible example. David: So I think that one of the things that we said is that it’s good to have guidelines and to get some stuff in place. And actually we’ve got an opportunity for some people to win some  guidelines. So let’s hand them out, shall we? George: So David, are you telling me we have honest to God prizes to hand out this month? David: Unbelievably, that that is true. After we finished recording, Sarah generously offered us three prize bundles to give away. Each of them, comprises the Content Design London readability guidelines and a copy of Sarah’s book Content Design, which I highly recommend. So, I took to social media and asked the audience. I said, “What is your best tip for making B2B content readable and accessible?” And we picked out three favourites, and we’ll send each of you a pack. George, do you want to know what they are? He said, rustling his papers. George: Yes, I do. David: Okay, he said. He said having destroyed some trees. Okay so we have some great responses. And the ones that we picked as our favourites are in no particular order… Livi Cracknell, who’s a Digital Content Strategist at Accenture Interactive, responded to us on LinkedIn. She said, “I would approach it from a strategic point of view to ensure consistency and longevity. So first establish the guidelines that content must meet to be deemed clear and accessible. And when does it fall short? Group these into categories, translate this into a framework, or a scorecard, or a checklist that could be used to govern the content creation process. And run all the content through this framework during the production cycle.” Jennifer Law, who’s a Digital Marketing Manager at the Institution of Engineering and Technology, responded on the B2B Marketing Propolis hive for content and brand strategy, and she says, “Some of the things we do within my team are,” (There’s a bunch of these, but they’re all good – I said that, she didn’t). “Attend accessibility forums, held with various user groups in our organization to understand barriers, and then take these learnings back to see how we can apply them to our content. “Number two, my team holds monthly accessibility meetings to agree on outcomes we are trying to achieve, to improve accessibility within our remit, We look at things like images, documents, page content, etc, and choose which ones to tackle next. “Number three, we create short guides and ‘lunch and learns’ to educate stakeholders and business units involved in content creation, and to educate the agencies we use on our requirements. “Number four, we regularly take time and read up on accessibility to understand more about this topic and discuss our meetings and agree on the next steps. “Number five, we use Semrush and SiteImprove to run audits on our content. If we don’t own the content we talk to the business owners, about our findings and discuss potential changes we can make. “And number six, we regularly conduct SEO audits to understand questions and the language people use to make sure that our content is readable and resonates with the needs of our audiences. PS, we have also recently completed an accessibility audit on some of our websites, and we are about to do the same on some of our downloadable content to understand how accessible they are.” Wow, there’s a whole load there from Jennifer, who has more than earned a prize bundle, I think. And, but you, we didn’t just need, you know reams and reams of suggestions. We also, on LinkedIn, had a response from Chomparani Ali who’s a content specialist in Germany. I think she’s in Germany. She says, “Clearly structure content with subheadings and bullet points, a lot of B2B blog posts ramble on with long sentences and paragraphs”. Amen to that. George: I was going to say, we’ve all seen that. Fair play. David: A wall of practical, usable advice and I think that they’ve all, earned themselves prize bundles, so we’ll be in touch to get your addresses and send those out to you. Well done to you, and thanks to everyone else who took the time to engage and sent tips. Obviously we can’t read all of them. George: Okay, well, now it’s time for our copywriting for the month. This time it’s from Radix Consultant Writer, and International Man of Mystery, Kieran Haynes. Kieran Haynes: Hi, I’m Kieran, I’m a Consultant Writer at Radix. My favourite copywriting tip is: don’t start writing before you’re ready. When I first began working as a copywriter, I can’t have spent more than twenty percent of my time planning what I was going to write. I would rush to get some words on the page, to protect me against the ever approaching deadline. Then I’d edit, I’d rethink, I’d freak out, I’d unpick and I would restructure. It wasn’t a fun or effective way to work. Today I probably spend the majority of my time planning. I set out a narrative flow. I know what all my references and proof points are, and where I’m going to use them. I trust in my writing process even as the clock is ticking down, and my work has is much better as a result. David: He does sound like an international man of mystery in that piece. George:  If anyone in this business was going to turn out to actually be a spy or assassin, that I never knew about, I think it would be Kieran. Don’t tell him I said that, I don’t want him to get too big for his boots. But I could see him just going, “Yeah, I’m just going to Switzerland for a week”. And I would just be like, I know what you’re doing, you’re not going skiing. David: I don’t know I think that Kieran would be too obvious. George: I thought you were going to compliment him and say, “He’d be too nice. But no, too obvious…” David: He’s too cool, He’s too cool. But yeah, as ever, Kieran, making the rest of us look bad, with his sheer thought process and discipline there. Do you agree with him, George? George: You know, we were talking about this just earlier today, David. Without question, I mean, you know, I have an immense amount of respect for Kieran, because I see him as like, my polar opposite in how he approaches work. You know I feel I’m quite workman-like when it comes to approaching copy, but Kieran is ever the artiste. He is a man who accepts nothing less than perfection, and his planning process is in and of itself a work of art. I think he really commits to it and it produces really great content, so I can’t argue with the results, also unfortunately it couldn’t be me, I just dive straight in and get going and pick it apart like a sculpture. David: I’m afraid that is all we have time for this month. Listener, join us again next time, when we’ll be talking to Paul Cash about emotion in B2B. In the meantime, George, would you thank our contributors and remind the listener, where they can get in touch, please. George: Sure thing. So thanks again to Sarah Winters for such an informative discussion. Thanks to Kieran for his copywriting tip and continuing to make me look bad. And thanks and congratulations to our three prize winners, but most importantly, thank you listener for your company. And please don’t forget, if you’d like to contact show you can do so on email@radix-communications.com, or on Twitter, @radixcom. And if you’re listening on Apple podcasts, please leave us a review; it would be great. David: Thank you George for co-hosting, have you enjoyed it. George: I always enjoy it, David. It’s always pleasure. David: You never look like you’re enjoying it. George: I’m one of these people, I’m cursed with everything I say sounds sarcastic, And it gets me in a lot of trouble. I’ll be talking to one of the guys in the office, and say, “That’s a really good piece of work, I guess”. And somehow they like think I’m making fun of them. I’m not, I genuinely mean it. David: I’m one of the few people that’s old enough to remember that guy on The Mary Whitehouse Experience but, you know, none of the audience, none of the listeners, none of our colleagues will know who that is. So I will move on. Until next time, listener, remember, nobody will ever complain that you made something too easy to understand. Well, except for that one stakeholder. you know the one…sorry. David and George: Goodbye! Acknowledgements and thanks Thanks once again to Sarah Winters; it was great to finally hear from you on the podcast, and we hope you’ll come back soon. Thanks also to George for co-hosting so smoothly, to Kieran the international superspy for making us all look bad with your copywriting tip. And thanks and congratulations to our brilliant competition winners: Livi, Jennifer, and Chomparani (who is indeed in Germany, it turns out). Hello to Jason Isaacs. And last but not least, thanks to Bang and Smash for mad podcast production skills. The post Podcast 98: How to make your B2B content more readable and accessible appeared first on Radix.

In this month’s episode of Good Copy, Bad Copy, we’re talking about creating content with real value for the reader. More specifically, writing content that reflects your customers’ priorities and furthers your business goals. In our feature interview, we get a lesson from the two inspirational voices behind The School of Valuable Content: Sonja Nisson and Sharon Tanton. We dive deep to discuss what prompted them to get the band back together, how they help marketers find that content sweet spot, and why client input is always the most vital part of content creation. Guest co-host John Espirian – influential B2B tech copywriter, Master of LinkedIn and author of Content DNA – joins us to talk through his own experiences, and discuss how to create content that’s “relentlessly helpful”. And to top it all off, you’ll catch another tip from our own team of experienced copywriters. This month’s words of wisdom are delivered to you by our very talented (and very wise) consultant copywriter Steve George. A (super-quick) checklist for creating valuable content As a brand, creating standout content is one of the best ways to attract your ideal customers, and build your reputation as an expert in your field. But it can be hard knowing what to write, or if your content has any real value (to your customer, or your business). Sonja and Sharon suggest asking three quick questions: Does your content help you meet your business goals? According to Sonja and Sharon, this is the first question you have to answer. There’s no point writing content if it doesn’t further your cause in some way. Maybe you want to showcase your unique expertise. Maybe you want to share a success story. Or maybe you’re targeting a specific client. Whatever the reason, it’s important to know why you’re writing. Is it (really, actually) helpful for your (real world) clients? To create value for your clients, you need to answer a real challenge, and provide a solution your customers genuinely crave. But to do that, your content should be written with a real end-user in mind. According to Sonja and Sharon, a good litmus test is asking whether you (or your sales team) would be motivated to share it with a specific individual. Does it add to the story you’re telling – without repeating yourself? It’s hard to create truly insightful, original content all the time. Looking at a story from different angles is perfectly fine. But to make people want to keep reading, you have to ensure that you’re not just repeating content – and that every piece you write takes the story a step further. Of course, there’s much more in the interview itself, so have a listen… and if you’d like to know more, maybe enrol in the School of Valuable Content yourself. In the rest of the podcast, you’ll also hear a wealth of insights from David and John, including the importance of writing to specific reader profiles (or, as John calls them, “Pen Portraits”), and why you should never refer a “Salesy Douche Canoe”. In this episode, you’ll find… 01.03 – A warm welcome for our latest guest co-host: John Espirian 04:25 – David talks valuable content with Sonja Nisson and Sharon Tanton 19:08 – John and David discuss how consistently valuable content, written for a specific audience, can build trust 34:22 – Our online community weighs in with valuable content obstacles and tips 41:00 – Steve George’s copywriting tip of the month Was this your favourite episode yet? We’d love to hear your thoughts. Tweet us at @radixcom on Twitter or pop us a message on podcast@radix-communications.com Or, if you fancy your chances of appearing on the podcast, send a voice memo our way. How to listen  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player And don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify Credits  Firstly, a very big Radix thank you to John Espirian. You’re as skilled at co-hosting as you are at copywriting, LinkedIn, and frankly everything else. Thanks also to Sonja Nisson and Sharon Tanton; it’s great to have you back! I think we all learned a lot from that fantastic interview – your students are lucky people. We’re grateful to the awesome folk who answered our questions on social media: Fiona, Scott, Maureen, and Joe. And Steve, thank you for providing an excellent copywriting tip of the month. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash The post Podcast 97: how to write valuable B2B content appeared first on Radix.

In this month’s Good Copy, Bad Copy, we’re getting serious about diversity and inclusion in B2B marketing content. Guest co-host Kavita Singh, Assistant Editor at B2B Marketing, joins David to share her experiences starting in the UK’s B2B sector as both an American and a woman of colour – and to lay bare the societal shifts we’ve lived through this past year. We’re also thrilled to interview Natalie Narh, Content Creative at Ogilvy and Vice-Chair of Ogilvy Roots UK, about the importance of deliberation when approaching inclusivity in your B2B content. Of course, it wouldn’t be the same without a copywriting tip of the month – this time shared by our *newly promoted* not-junior copywriter (woohoo!), Lizzie Cresswell. Diversity and inclusivity: what can we do better in B2B? As Natalie puts it so well in our interview, the content we create (even in B2B) is a “mirror to society” – and it’s up to us to include more people in that reflection. You may well be thinking about what you could possibly do to be more diverse and inclusive in a piece of content about, say, SaaS platforms. But as Natalie explains, there are small, positive changes we can all make to address unconscious biases and practices that can marginalise and exclude minority audiences. For example, we can put empathy first and ask ourselves questions like: Who will approve this content before it goes live – and why? How might somebody who isn’t “the standard” perceive this content? Are we relying too much on the minorities within our business to drive the positive changes we want to see? It’s a thought-provoking discussion that I think many of us could learn from. And as Natalie, Kavita and David explore in the podcast: not everyone always gets things right, so if called out, the trick is not to lash back – but to learn and move forwards. It’s time we got comfortable with being uncomfortable. You can find Natalie on Instagram and Twitter. In this episode, you’ll find… 01.09 – Introducing this episode’s co-host, Kavita Singh 04:30 – Natalie Narh talks intentional inclusivity in B2B content – and what it means for marketers 19:00 – Kavita discusses the impact of Black Lives Matter and her experiences entering the UK’s B2B sector as a woman of colour 39:00 – Copywriting tip of the month by our own Lizzie Cresswell Anything you loved in this episode? (Or really didn’t? That’s fine…) Tweet us at @radixcom on Twitter or pop us a message on podcast@radix-communications.com. Or, if you want to feature on the podcast itself, send us a voice memo our way. How to listen  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player And don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify Credits  Huge thanks are due to Natalie Narh for your time and insight. It’s safe to say we’ve all learnt something important. And of course, thank you Kavita Singh for agreeing to co-host with our David – it was great hearing you work together. Finally, thank you Lizzie for the copywriting tip of the month. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash The post Podcast 96: how to make sure your B2B content is inclusive and diverse appeared first on Radix.

In this month’s Good Copy, Bad Copy, we’re talking about writing social media copy for B2B brands – how to write it, what tactics work well, and what B2B marketing experts think great social content looks like. Guest co-host Lorraine Williams, founder of Lighthouse Proofreading (and undisputed Queen of PDF Proofing), joins David to chat about the wonderful world of LinkedIn and the challenges of writing engaging content for a B2B audience. You’ll also catch an interview with social media marketing guru Luan Wise. An independent marketing consultant and trainer, Luan knows all there is to know about social media marketing (she even runs courses for LinkedIn). Tune in to hear her best writing advice for B2B social content – and as well as her recent research study about social media and how it’s changed in the pandemic. Plus, three top B2B marketers share their favourite examples of great social content – and our very own Ben Philpott provides the copywriting tip of the month. B2B social content: a sneak peek at Luan’s “what not to do” list As Luan points out in her interview, social media marketing follows similar rules to any other kind of content – and anything you post needs to adhere to your brand and messaging. That means ensuring your voice is still clear and recognisable, and that you’re writing towards the right audience. But along with these tips, Luan shares a few mistakes you should be careful to avoid: Don’t forget your call to action: You’re posting on social media to be social – so don’t forget to involve your reader in some way. Don’t go silent for weeks on end: Being consistently present is key to being great at B2B social media – so don’t just leave all your posting for a quiet month. Don’t publish clickbait or fake headlines: The clearer you are, the more your readers will care about what you have to say. Don’t overthink it: Plan out your social media strategy, then make posting a habit. You can absorb more of Luan’s wisdom by (you guessed it) listening to the podcast, where you’ll also catch David and Lorraine talking about their own tips and tricks. And be sure to check out Luan’s website for info on all the courses she runs, and a ton of free resources. In this episode, you’ll find… 00.50 – (Enter stage left) Introducing this week’s co-host, Lorraine Williams 02.44 – Luan Wise spills the secrets of writing great social media content for B2B 22.31 – David and Lorraine chat about the joys and perils of writing for LinkedIn 35:35 – Three B2B experts share their favourite social media content 43:13 – Copywriting tip of the month, by our own Ben P Anything you love or hate about this podcast?  We’d love to chat about it. You can contact us through @radixcom on Twitter or podcast@radix-communications.com Or, if you’re feeling fancy, just send us a voice memo with what you want to say – we might even feature it next month. As ever, if you’d like to leave us a review on your listening platform of choice, that’s always a bonus. How to listen  You can download the episode here (right click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player And don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify Credits  A massive thank you to Luan Wise for letting us pick your brain about all things social media. We really appreciate your time and insights. Thanks also to everyone who joined in the discussion about B2B social content on Propolis and LinkedIn – especially this month’s featured commenters: Dan Smith, Kate Roe, and Yvonne Deegan. Y’all rock. Thanks to Ben for the copywriting tip of the month, and of course a big thanks to Lorraine for being an awesome co-host, and an exceptional LinkedIn-er. It was great to hear your social media secrets (btw, here at Radix we’re firmly camp Hula Hoop). Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash. The post Podcast 95: how to write B2B social media content appeared first on Radix.

This month’s episode of Good Copy, Bad Copy is about how to write Account-Based Marketing (ABM) content that sticks.\r\n\nI’ve been in this B2B technology copywriting business for a few years now, and I can think of few approaches that have flourished in that time as much as ABM. Everybody is doing it, and it’s easy to see why: when it works, it *really* works.\r\n\nBut that also means ABM content needs to work harder than ever to make an impression. And that’s why we’re delighted to have Rhiannon Blackwell, head of ABM for Europe at Accenture, join us to share her expert insights into what content actually works.\r\n\nRadix consultant writer George Reith joins David as guest co-host, to discuss his own experiences – as well as the ABM challenges cited most by our lovely B2B friends on LinkedIn and Propolis.\r\n\nPlus senior copywriter Katy shares a 20-second writing tip, and a CX Manager takes on the Anonymous Five.\r\n\n“ABM is for life. Not just for Christmas.”\nThose are the first words you’ll hear from Rhiannon in this month’s episode. (Sure, it’s March, but it’s the sentiment that counts.) You see, the meteoric rise of ABM is more than just another fad; it’s arguably the future of B2B marketing.\r\n\nBut how do you do it well?\r\n\nDrawing on years of experience, Rhiannon tells us:\r\n\n\nHow to get people to listen to *you* and not just see your ABM content as the output of a faceless brand\r\n\nWhy your clients must recognise themselves in your ABM content – and the importance of applying personal insights\r\n\nWhat effective ABM content really looks like and why you should never tell your audience how to suck eggs\r\n\n\nIn this episode, you’ll find…\n02.30 – An expert’s view on ABM content: our interview with Rhiannon Blackwell\r\n\n22:30 – George and David discuss the interview and how George’s ABM experiences compare\r\n\n34:30 – The LinkedIn and Propolis communities share their own ABM challenges\r\n\n45:25 – The Anonymous Five: a Customer Experience Manager talks job misconceptions and reveals why generational stereotypes are rarely helpful\r\n\nAnything you loved in this episode?\nTweet us at @radixcom on Twitter or fire a message over to podcast@radix-communications.com.\r\n\nShould you want to share the mic (albeit remotely) with David on a future episode, send us a voice memo with your comment, question, or 20-second writing tip.\r\n\nHow to listen:\n\nYou can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download)\r\n\nOr you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts\r\n\nAlternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player\r\n\nAnd don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify\r\n\n\nCredits:\nA huge thanks to Rhiannon Blackwell for joining us despite being on the cusp of maternity leave (and congratulations on the arrival of baby Ivor!).\r\n\nThanks also to our correspondents on Propolis and LinkedIn: Shikha Saxena, Fiona Campbell-Howes (Hi, Fiona!), and Scott Stockwell. We loved sharing your perspectives.\r\n\nAnd of course, we’re indebted to our mystery CX Manager (we’ve made a donation to the Myton hospices on your behalf), and to Katy for supplying our inaugural copywriting tip of the month.\r\n\nPodcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.\r\n\nThe post Podcast 94: how to write great content for ABM (now that *everyone* is doing it) appeared first on Radix.\r\n\n

In this month’s episode of Good Copy, Bad Copy, we’re talking about an issue that plagues B2B marketers everywhere: getting other departments in your business to share the insights that are so vital to creating worthwhile content. Guest co-host Adam Harper, Quantexa’s new Demand Generation Manager for EMEA, joins David in the virtual studio to discuss the challenges B2B marketers face when building better interdepartmental collaboration, like: Mad marketing ideas from senior leadership Lack of trust from other departments Being too darned nice to get the co-operation you need (Yell “BINGO” if you’ve experienced them all.) Best of all, you’ll catch an interview with indomitable B2B tech marketer and cross-functional insight expert, Maureen Blandford. With her new, free digital book on the subject “Moats and Drawbridges” hot off the press, Maureen tells us why extracting useful insights from other departments is so “ouchy” – and how to make a start. Finally, a UK-based Fleet Analyst tackles the Anonymous Five. If you create content for fleet customers, you’re really going to want to hear what they have to say. Time for every functional area to come together Every functional area of a business – including product, sales, marketing, and customer success – has a wealth of great information that can help everyone else (and especially those of us who make B2B content). But an unstructured, ad-hoc approach to information sharing makes cross-functional insights nearly impossible. So how can you start to build up that communication, and get the insights you need to create truly great B2B copy? Maureen offers a few tips: Start small: Learning any new skill feels strange at first, so starting small is your best chance of keeping everyone onboard. Focus on one question you really want answered: It doesn’t have to be marketing’s choice; product could be seeing an under-used feature, for example. Pick a question, work together to answer it, and you’ll build muscle memory. Expect messy: Change doesn’t happen overnight – and breaking down barriers is a tough business. A healthy level of friction is part of getting the job done, and that’s okay. You’ll find plenty more guidance in the full interview (along with a scathing review of Martech vendors). What more could you ask for? Maureen’s new book can be found here: Moats & Drawbridges: The Current State of B2B Cross-functional Insight Sharing. And when you’re inspired to drive change (and trust us, you will be), join the conversation at #InsightHarnesser. The Anonymous Five: Fleet Analyst, UK-based maintenance company In this month’s no-holds-barred Q&A, a mystery Fleet Analyst gives us some brutally honest insights about crap marketing and the impact of electric vehicles. They tell us which electric car companies have “terrible B2B service” – and which fall short with their targeting – and reveal why, ultimately, Excel is the tool that any software solution needs to beat. (Thank you, anonymous Fleet Analyst, for being so honest and detailed; we’ve made a donation to Changing Pathways on your behalf.) In this episode, you’ll find… 0.53 – Introducing the one and only Adam Harper 3.40 – Maureen Blandford tells us why cross-functional collaboration is key 24.21 – David and Adam discuss the interview, and why “anecdata” is so dangerous 36.42 – What one question would you ask? The people have their say 41.26 – The Anonymous Five: a Fleet Analyst tells all Anything you loved in this episode? (Or really, really hated? We can take it, honest…) Tweet us at @radixcom on Twitter or pop us a message on podcast@radix-communications.com Or, if you want to feature on the podcast itself, send us a voice memo our way. How to listen  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe (and leave a review if you like) on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player Of if you prefer, you could always follow us on Spotify Credits  Thanks, Adam, for being a consummate co-host – we’ve no doubt you’ll be back on the show soon. Ish. Thank you to the wonderful Maureen Blandford, for sharing your wealth of expertise (and never being afraid to say it just how it is). Did we mention the book? Thanks also to our mystery Fleet Analyst, and to our merry band of Twitter and LinkedIn responders: Paul A63005, Ian Truscott, Wendy Clack, Matt Dodgson, Gregory Hooven, Sam Armondi, Sam Batstone,  Kate Roe, and Syed Haseen Ahmed. You guys are awesome. Podcast editing and music by Gareth at Bang and Smash. The post Podcast 93: getting insights from other departments for your B2B content appeared first on Radix.

This month’s episode of Good Copy, Bad Copy focuses on the changing role of content in the telecommunications sector – and what other B2B marketers can learn from it. The pandemic has had a seismic impact on B2B telecoms, with brands moving fast to accommodate the stampede to home working. But even before that, the market’s major players were moving away from just selling connectivity to a wider range of more strategic services. And their content was playing a big role. Our guest co-host, Radix Consultant Writer George Reith, joins David to get to the bottom of that change – and what it means for content marketing. David is also joined by Sarah Zammit, Business Marketing Specialist at GO plc – Malta’s biggest internet, TV, and mobile provider. Sarah gives her view from the B2B telecoms marketing frontline, including the shift to selling new kinds of products and expertise, and how this has affected the way marketers position their content. How do you earn the right to change? Change has always been at the heart of telecoms. New technologies enter the market, customers’ priorities evolve… and right in middle is the content marketer who’s tasked with making sense of it all. But for some organisations, the COVID-19 pandemic compressed five-year digital transformation ambitions into a matter of weeks, and their telcos had to keep up. Sarah explains how B2B organisations had to adapt their marketing twice – first to meet the immediate crisis, and then to help audiences adjust to the new reality. In the interview, Sarah also discusses: How telecoms breeds agile marketers – who have to deal with constant shifts in technology and business strategy Why telcos need to earn the right to reposition – and how marketers can achieve this through content How marketers can get up to speed with new tech – and how Sarah works with experts in her team to distil technical concepts into digestible content Following their chat, George reveals his take on creating marketing content for telecoms as an outsourced copywriter. He concludes that while telecoms has unique marketing challenges, much of the way the industry tackles change can apply to other sectors too. In this episode, you’ll find… 03.44 – Marketing is a process of constant education: an interview with Sarah Zammit 17.51 – George and David discuss the key takeaways from Sarah’s discussion, including how good B2B content can help brands move up the value curve 25.15 – How experts and third-party contributors can help establish authority in a new subject area 30.09 – George shares some unconventional tips you can use to get up to speed quickly on challenging technical concepts We really want to hear from you If there’s anything you’d like to hear more about on the podcast (or even things you don’t), contact us through @radixcom on Twitter or podcast@radix-communications.com. You can even get on the podcast yourself – just send us a voice memo with what you want to say. How to listen  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe (and leave a review if you like us) on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player And don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify Credits  Thanks once again to Sarah Zammit for giving us an insider’s perspective on the state of telecoms marketing today – here’s to it being completely different tomorrow! And we’re forever grateful to George Reith for his invaluable ‘on the ground’ insight. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash The post Podcast 92: writing B2B content for telecoms (and other changing sectors) appeared first on Radix.

Our final Good Copy, Bad Copy of 2020 is an extra special one. It’s our third annual Best B2B Content roundup – when we reveal what you’ve voted as the best content of the year. And this year, through the joys of Zoom, David’s joined by an international panel of B2B marketing experts to discuss the results. Meet our expert panel of B2B marketing all-stars Maureen Blandford, VP of Marketing at Community Brands, joins us all the way from Chicago We welcome back previous co-host and newly freelance B2B writing gunslinger, Harry Kapur Danfoss’s senior copywriter and content marketing consultant, Lasse Lund, shares his perspective from Denmark Head of Marketing for Turtl, Karla Rivershaw, brings an overview of what marketers have been publishing this year, along with her extensive knowledge of B2B marketing songs. (You’ll find more on Karla’s LinkedIn profile.) We know we’re biased, but this year, our best content shortlist has it all. There’s brutal honesty. There’s outrage. There’s celebration. There are surprises. There are insights from industry leaders. And there’s a whole load of fantastic B2B content to talk about. You can can see all the nominees in more detail here. Plus, you’ll hear from our all-star panel on the B2B marketing trends that have dominated 2020, their top predictions and tips for the B2B content that could define 2021 – and why B2B content is such a level playing field. So who have you voted the winner? You’ll have to listen to find out… In this episode, you’ll find: 00.33 – Meet our all-star panel of B2B marketing experts 05:20 – 2020 in review: how do you make B2B content in a year like that? 12:05 – Our countdown begins: places 10-6 20:27 – We reveal places 5-2, including this year’s runner-up 44:26 – Honorary mentions: the content that didn’t quite make the top 10 46:18 – We reveal what you voted this year’s best B2B content 49:50 – Hear our panellists tips and predictions for B2B content in 2021 Tell us your joy, despair or outrage at the results… Contact us through @radixcom on Twitter or podcast@radix-communications.com (you could even send us a voice memo). How to listen  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe (and leave a review if you like) on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player And don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify Credits  Hearty congratulations to our finalists, and a big thank you to everyone who sent in audio, nominations, or voted: Emily King, Doug Kessler, Joel Harrison, Paul Hewerdine, Giles Shorthouse, André Spiteri, Andrew Last, Eman Malik and so many more. We had an absolute blast looking through them all. And thank you so much to the ABBA of B2B copy – our wonderful panel of experts. Maureen Blandford, Harry Kapur, Karla Rivershaw and Lasse Lund, it was great to hear your round up of the longest year ­ever, find out your honest opinions on our finalists, and get an idea of what’s coming up next. You should do this for a living. Podcast editing, music, and festive sparkle by Bang and Smash. The post Podcast 91: The Best B2B Content of 2020 appeared first on Radix.

In this month’s episode of Good Copy, Bad Copy, we discuss how storytelling, data, and customer insights all come together to create engaging B2B content. Guest co-host Ramon Vanden Brulle, Copy Director at Yesler (excitingly now part of Accenture Interactive), joins David to dissect why data and a well-structured, strong story are both components you can’t leave out. Plus, you’ll catch an interview with Dr Christine Bailey, CMO and Managing Director SMB UK and Ireland for the payment tech company Valitor. With a newly-released book on customer insight strategies – not to mention an actual doctorate on the subject – Chris tells us how data and storytelling reinforce each other in your content. (And she shares a structured approach you can totally steal.) In this month’s Anonymous Five, a Chief Marketing Officer at a large, UK-based telecoms distributor reveals whether their job makes them more judgemental about the marketing content they receive. And *drum roll * voting is now open for the best content of 2020. We’ve complied the most exciting and inspiring nominations into a shortlist. Now, it’s time to vote for your favourite – if you can choose, that is. Blending data and storytelling? Use SCIPAB® Christine explains how Mandel’s simple(-ish) acronym can help you add urgency and incentive to your B2B content, by prompting you to create a compelling structure infused with the right data points. What do the letters stand for, you ask? Here you go: Situation: Start by painting a familiar, comforting scene your reader understands. Complication: Bring in the “but” – the issue disrupting the scene – complete with stats to back it up. Implications: Discuss the fallout of this issue – and the opportunity it creates. Illustrate your point with infographics, statistics, or other bits of data. Position: Introduce the good that can come from this opportunity – including success stories. Action: Get into what your reader needs to do, and how you can help. (If it’s appropriate, Christine recommends including some funny stories here – like people who’ve really effed it up.) Benefit: Tell your reader what’s waiting for them if they get it right, with quantifiable results. In the interview, you’ll hear real-life examples of this in action. Chris also dives into her new book: Customer Insight Strategies. She shares how you can find out what your customer actually cares about, and why you should use this information to build your value proposition and personas. (Hint: it involves this TED talk by Simon Sinek.) After, David and Ramon chat about championing the customer, and avoiding boasts and promises they’ve heard 1,000 times before. Ramon reveals his secret recipe for extracting the right data points from tricky clients… You lucky, lucky thing. The Anonymous Five: Chief Marketing Officer, UK-based telecoms Who doesn’t love a brutally honest answer – especially when it comes direct from a B2B persona you might be targeting? This month, a CMO at a UK-based telecoms distributor tells us how they’ve changed tack to deliver digital sales enablement, why marketing technology is such a boon, and exactly how much of the content they receive is “woeful”. (Thank you, anonymous CMO. We’ve donated to Downs South London Kids Walk 300 on your behalf.) And the VOTING IS OPEN for the best B2B content of 2020 Don’t forget we have 15 inspiring examples of 2020’s best B2B content for you to choose from. (Well, they’re mostly inspiring. One of them just made us want to vomit and laugh at the same time.) Which will be your favourite? Anyway, you have until the morning of Tuesday 8th December to cast your vote. If you have thoughts on any of the nominees, record a voice memo and email it to us. In this episode, you’ll find… 00.55 – Meet Ramon Vanden Brulle, straight from Seattle 04.19 – Where data meets story: an interview with Dr Christine Bailey 26.12 – Ramon and David chat about Christine’s pearls of wisdom 40.07 – The Anonymous Five: a telecoms CMO spills (some of) the beans Send us your thoughts, feedback, or unwanted advent chocolates… Contact us through @radixcom on Twitter or podcast@radix-communications.com (ideally, send us a voice memo so we can hear from you on the show). How to listen  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player And don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify Credits  Thank you to Dr Christine Bailey for joining us; it was a joy to chat with you (and congratulations on the book). Also, a big hand to Ramon Vanden Brulle for being one of our best co-hosts yet. Thanks also to our anonymous CMO. If you like the sound of Chris’s new book, you can grab your copy here. Podcast editing, music, and natty new jingles by Bang and Smash The post Podcast 90: telling stories with data appeared first on Radix.

In this episode of Good Copy, Bad Copy, we’re talking about copywriting tools, tips and tricks to make you a better B2B writer. Our guest co-host, Radix copywriter and content lead Katy Eddy, speaks with Julia Pierce from Literature and Latte about whether a writing tool like Scrivener might be a serious alternative to Word. And four writers share what they learned at this year’s Copywriting Conference. Plus, a Deputy Chief Information Security Officer gets brutally honest in the Anonymous Five, and we need your help to find the best B2B content of 2020. Where professional copywriting meets creative practice What can creative writing pursuits teach us about professional copywriting? Lots, it turns out. And here’s the surprising thing: that learning flows both ways. The habits and disciplines of the day job can make creative work more effective too. But when it comes to software, most B2B copywriters consider Microsoft Word as the de facto tool of the trade (in fact, we have a whole blog post about Word v Google Docs). Specialist writing tools like Scrivener can often be seen as the preserve of novelists, screenwriters, and other creative types. But in our feature interview this month, Julia Pierce explains why that might not always be true. Especially if you’re writing an ebook, a white paper, or any other piece that involves organising multiple reference sources,  it a change of tool could be just the thing to help you see the big picture among the details. (Also: if you’d like to know any more about NaNoWriMo, and how it can help you to write faster, you’ll find Katy’s blog about that here.) What we learned at CopyCon: perfectionism, persuasion, reviews Kudos to ProCopywriters for using the switch to digital events as an excuse to make the Copywriting Conference bigger than ever. At Radix, we got several writers involved in the training, as well as the day itself. Have a listen, and you’ll hear what they learned: George shares how to harness systematic and heuristic decision-making Lizzie reveals a coping method to overcome the perfectionist’s fear response Ben muses on the importance of sharing with writers from other backgrounds Kieran suggests you might want to ditch tracked changes, and have a call instead The Anonymous Five: Deputy Chief Information Security Officer In this month’s “Anonymous Five”, we get a brutally frank perspective from a Deputy Chief Information Security Officer (or DCISO for short), at a large US real estate firm. Basically, if you write or commission cybersecurity content, you need to hear it. (Thank you to our anonymous DCISO. We’ve donated to the charity of your choice: the mental health charity MIND.) Here’s what you will find in this episode… 2.10 – Katy explains why everyone should be grateful to Goths 9.05 – Julia Pierce shares some of the more surprising uses for Scrivener 24.30 – Katy reveals which B2B copywriting projects might benefit from new software 28.49 – Four Radix writers share what they learned at the Copywriting Conference 40:18 – The Anonymous Five: Deputy Chief Information Security Officer (DCISO) Send us your thoughts, feedback, and favourite B2B content Contact us through @radixcom on Twitter or podcast@radix-communications.com (if you’re up for it, email us a voice memo). In particular, we want to know about the best piece of B2B content you’ve seen this year. How to listen  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player And don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify Credits  Thanks to Julia Pierce for your time and insights. We’ll definitely be giving Scrivener a go in the office, and we’ll let you know how we get on. Thanks also to our anonymous DCISO, and all the speakers and trainers at this year’s Copywriting Conference. In particular Tim Fidgeon, Jo Watson, Honor Clement-Hayes and Hinrich Von Haaren. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash The post Podcast 89: B2B copywriting tools, tips and tricks appeared first on Radix.

Strange as it may seem, there was once a time where the idea of B2B marketing just didn’t exist. So, from that bleak, cold world, how has B2B evolved into the innovative, passion-led industry we know today? In this episode of Good Copy, Bad Copy, David and co-host Jane Morrin, EMEA Director of Marketing at Udemy, take a look at the pivotal moments in the B2B industry’s history, what it could look like in future, and the dramatic changes taking place today. And who better to ask than the editor-in-chief of B2B Marketing, industry founder, and B2B evangelist (his words, not ours), Joel Harrison? From pub conversations to a lively, booming industry The interview is truly inspiring, with deep insights into the foundation of the B2B industry, and its evolution. You’ll hear: What inspired Joel and co-founder James Farmer to create B2B Marketing How they built a thriving community around B2B Marketing’s content and events Why B2B demands a deeper emotional connection than B2C – and why they should remain two separate entities How two periods of inflection have shaped the industry: the 2008 credit crunch, and this year’s COVID crisis What Joel loves about the industry – and his biggest pet peeves How the B2B industry needs to evolve from here, and the importance of greater diversity Plus, David and Jane share their thoughts on the interview and discuss under-representation in the B2B tech industry, and how 2020 will change the industry forever. Jane chats about Udemy’s own focus on diversity, and the recent virtual event by Tile’s Jossie Haines on equality and inclusion. (You can still catch up here – it’s well worth a listen.) The Anonymous Five: small business owner, UK For this month’s “Anonymous Five”, the face behind the curtain belongs to a small business owner, at a UK-based womenswear company. They tell us what a nightmare day would look like, and why marketers should take the time to find out where a small business is in their journey – and the specific challenges they’re facing – rather than just assuming the owner is overwhelmed. Thank you, anonymous business owner, for your time. We’ve donated to the charity of your choice: The Wave Project. Here’s what you will find in this episode… 1.00 – Jane Morrin chats about changing jobs during a pandemic 5.00 – Our interview with B2B founder, Joel Harrison 24.46 – David and Jane add their thoughts on the evolution of B2B marketing 36.51 – How this year will change the B2B world forever 47:38 – The Anonymous Five: a small business owner Send us your thoughts, feedback or cute pet photos… Contact us through @radixcom on Twitter or podcast@radix-communications.com (if you’re up for it, email us a voice memo). How to listen  You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As” to download) Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player And don’t forget you can follow us on Spotify Credits  Thank you to Joel Harrison, it was fantastic to share some of your pet peeves, and hear you get so passionate. Also, a big thanks to Jane Morrin for being a wonderful co-host. You’re both stars. Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash The post Podcast 88: the changing face of B2B marketing content appeared first on Radix.