REAL TIME Podcast

Conscious leadership isn’t a one-size-fits-all skill. It’s a series of conscious decisions to address the needs of your team, build strategies rooted in empathy, and understanding the value of conflict management. Dale Allen, an executive leadership coach who uses a unique empathetic brain-based approach, sat down with Shaun Majumder at CREA’s 2026 Leadership Summit to discuss the importance of creativity and flexibility in leadership. She also shared insights into the value of emotional intelligence, checking in with yourself as a leader, and “noticing your grip.” Transcript Dale Allen: You don't want to learn to swim when you're drowning, so it's what you do now. This is why I'm saying about desire, oftentimes, I'm working with people, and they want the change, but they don't want to do the work because it's not crisis time yet. I'm saying, don't wait until there's a crisis. You really do need to practice. Shaun: I love it. Welcome. This is so exciting, guys. Are you guys stoked to see a live podcast now? No fights are going to break out. This is going to be like-- We're just going to have a great conversation. I've so enjoyed doing this podcast over the last year and a half now. We're so excited to have Dale Allen. Dale, first of all, why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are, what your company is, what your passion is, and let's talk about leadership. I'm stoked to talk about leadership. Dale: Sounds good. I am Dale Allen. I've been called many things, but Dale is my name. My company is called ConsciousLead, and I have a real ache for being around people, working with people, connecting with people who want to do things with people, like understand how people work. I just think that it's a bit of a tragedy, in many organizations, that we can do this stuff, where we're leading people, we have to make decisions with people yet we might not take the time and create the space to really understand how people work. Sometimes, just because we have a leadership title, we can assume that we understand how people work, and I think that that can be a myth. I love, and I am telling you, I'm committed to, and have an ache for when people understand that that part's important. Shaun: Yes, I think it is. I feel like, in the world, if you're an ambitious person at all, and you want to achieve great things, a lot of people spend a lot of time in their own head, right? We're spending lots of time, as creative people, thinking about, "Okay, I want to do this. I want to achieve this, but I'm really thinking about I, I, I," and we're not focusing on the people around you and what you need to get out of them, I guess, in order to help you achieve the things that you want to achieve, right? Dale: Yes. Shaun: I want to ask you a bit about that because I'm pretty stoked now. I've gone from being-- I'm an actor and a comedian. I do all this creative stuff, but I've now taking a much more entrepreneurial role, and I've created my own company now. It's called Lafboy Films. I want to be the leader of this company, but I know I need to get better at being a leader. Why don't we talk a bit about that? You have an interesting approach. I hear you have something called a brain-based [chuckles] approach to leadership. Thank God, because when I think about AI has taken over the world, I'm like, "Thank God, this is going to be an organic, wet brain approach to leadership." Explain a bit about that. What do you mean by that? Dale: Yes. Some years ago, we had-- I've been coaching for 21 years, so my partner and I have had this business. Some years ago, we started to really study neuroscience and understand the impact of what it means to be together, the impact that we are having on each other right now. I was thinking about whether you have clients or you're looking at your own team or your team at home, the fact that we are actually always in response to people's brains. If their brain is in a threat state, then it closes. It can't open to the ideas that we have, to what we want to share with them. I've got two kids, so I know that for sure. Shaun: I've got two kids. Dale: You know what it's like, right? Shaun: How old are your kids now? Dale: 16 and 18. Shaun: Oh, wow. Mine are 4 and 6. Dale: Oh, it's so yummy. Shaun: Yes, so yummy. Dale: That's also where it started for us, too. Our children are young, and we were really understanding how the brain works so that we could be really great parents for them. It makes me think that if all of us here, of course, we've got brains, right? Yes, you're with me on that one, so we do. It's that anytime we walk into a room, anytime we walk into a conversation, as we wake, our brain is always scanning our environment for a threat or a reward. Just in knowing that, to me, I think it's so important for us to know how do we actually help ourselves when our brain is in a threat state in a given moment. It can happen. We can go into a threat state like that. Shaun: It's a blink. Dale: Oh, yes, and we don't even know it. To me, it's like if we understood that principle, and then we looked at, then, how do I know when my colleague or a client or another board member or whichever is in that threat state, even for a blink? What would I do differently then to invite them into a state where they could be more open, they could hear what I have to offer? In particular, when things are challenging. I always say leadership shows up when things are challenging. When life's easy-- Shaun: Oh, when life's easy, man, it's like I am-- I've always joked around about this. I feel like I can be full enlightened Buddha when I am by myself, and there's not another input around me. I have no influence. Then you put me on the highway, and someone cuts me off when I'm merging, or they don't merge, all of a sudden, I'm getting triggered, or my partner, she says something that affected me 15 years ago. Then all of a sudden, this thing comes up. I'm here preaching to her about being calm and don't lead with fear, and here I am freaking out inside about being fearful. It's so hard to be a human, to have a brain. It's really hard. When you apply that to your team, and when you're thinking about that, I heard you say something just now, which I find interesting. A lot of it that I've worked on as a parent has been about my own awareness of my own reactions to things. When you talk about how can I get a client or a team member in that same headspace, what are the tools that you use to get them there so that they are open to hearing your leadership style? Talk to me about that. Dale: I'm glad you asked because I've got my toolbox. I don't [crosstalk] I was actually thinking about this because I got to meet with some people before from CREA, and I was sharing with them. I do have a process. I absolutely do. One of the things I'll say is I'm going to name some steps because we like steps, don't we? Everyone's like, step 1, you do this, you be aware. I suppose it is that, though. I think it is about being aware. I think before that, even if I was to give you the steps, I think that we need a desire. We've gone through this life, for example, without knowing about the brain, let's just say. We've gone through our businesses, and we've parented and we've been partners to our spouses or whatever. We've gone through life just fine. I think it starts with desire. What I notice is it's just like when I used to personal train as well. I would give people their program. Then I was like, "Oh, that's not it. If you can Google it, then you don't need me." That way To me, you need to have a desire to want to lead in a way that has people's brains open. It really does start there. Shaun: Wait, back up. You're saying you want to have a desire to lead in a way that opens people's brain? Dale: Which is really like opening their hearts, right? Shaun: Right, right. Having the desire. You have to start from that place? Dale: You do. The reason why I was saying that is because sometimes people will say, brain-based leadership or even coaching or doing leadership development, some people don't want to do it. If you've ever worked with anyone where you're like, they're just not going to do it. That's so normal. It's just like in school, right? There's a certain percent of the population who is going to do the work, right? We have to honor that that's true for us. The desire becomes important because, in an organization, there'll be about 20%. It's the Pareto principle, just like in anything else. Shaun: What is that? Can you explain that? Dale: The Pareto principle, it's the 80-20 rule. It applies in everything. When you look at behavior, for example, or anything that you see in our life where you go, 80% of the people will do the general way, and the 20% will be the ones who will do something different. That's what I find here, too. There'll be 20% when I work with a team, 20% of the folks will do the work. It's just how it goes. You'll see that, even if you look at your teams now-- I don't mean that other people aren't working. I just mean you'll see the difference in terms of who is like, "Yes, let's go, let's do it," because it's work. Again, if I was to give you all a fitness program, which I could, we could do squats right now. That's what I usually do. It totally is my thing. A little jump with that, too. You see? Next level, you see? Shaun: I love it. I love it. I feel good already. Yes, keep going. I love that idea. When it gets back to desire, it gets 80-20. Then you lead by example, but how do you bring that out of your team? Dale: Right. Here's what I've noticed in looking at the stats, though, is then those 20% are the ones that you want to feed because everyone's having an impact, right? If I keep developing them, then the way that they interact with folks who might be, like, later adopters or might not be interested at all in doing what it takes maybe to move the organization forward. It just means that everyone's got a role. What happens with that 20%, I find, is that if I keep nurturing them, then how everyone else interacts with them, their interactions shift. Change is still happening anyway. It's so beautiful. If they're not fed, then what happens is people, the 80% say how they are, and the 20% are trying to figure it out. There, if we develop them, then when they're interacting with others, you'll just watch. They're already shifting the dynamic. That's another thing I discovered over 21 years and over, I don't know, 10,000 people that I've been coaching. You just start to see that that's the way to cause a change. Not everyone has to jump on. Shaun: Desire is important. Easier said than done. Dale: Totally. Shaun: I think that's a big thing. Then, if I am a part of, let's say, the 20% of that group, I want to affect change with my team. What if the team just isn't coming this way? How do you manage that? I understand you have something called cognitive flexibility. I want to talk a little bit about that. I find that to be really an important piece. Dale: Yes. Desire is one. We talked there. I just want to go to that, and I'll lead you to-- I want to weave in what you were saying about cognitive flexibility. Desire is needed because if we want to change something, we have to see who has the desire for the change. Then we want to see who has the desire to do the work for the change. We can have the ache for it, we have the desire for it to change, but we don't want to do the work. Then that's really natural. That happens. All the time. I want to focus on the folks who want to do the work. What happens with that is, it's just like, again, if you can just imagine at home, all of us are someone's children. They're someone's child. If we look at when your sibling, actually, you were doing all the work and your other sibling wasn't, does that happen? Were you the one who wasn't doing the work? I don't know. I'm not calling anyone out. When you see those kinds of imbalances, what you notice is that that can create tension. That's why us understanding the brain becomes important, because how do I then support folks when they're meeting resistance from other people? Our ability as leaders to understand how do I coach you, how do I still support you, and how do I still support the rest of my team, becomes so important because you're actually really balancing resistance and resistance, actually, right? Shaun: Yes. Dale: Cognitive flexibility to me is that, in coaching, in learning, how to understand how people react to things, how to understand what are their drivers, their motivations. When you understand that, then you can look at, "Oh, how do I then coach? Is there any Johns?" I always use John and Janes. If you're a John and a Jane, I love you because you've made my life really, really simple. How do I coach John over here? Really, I'm just coaching John because John's dealing with resistance. I'm helping him work through resistance. Over here, I've got people who are seeming like resistors, but that's okay. That's also part of it, too. They might not understand what it's going to take or see that as the way. Look at what is the way to understand their motivations as well as the motivations over here. That becomes our skill. That helps us, our brain, our mind, be more flexible. That's why cognitive flexibility is not my word. I wish I made it up. I didn't. Shaun: Is that a cultural thing? Is there something cultural about that in terms of the way we're brought up? I imagine, in some societies, there's a certain way of being. It's like, "This is strict. If you do not do it this way, then we don't want you." Then people fall away. You're taking a much more empathetic approach to managing a team. Have you seen that in your studies and seen some cultures, they do it a certain way, but then it might create a certain vibe within a team? I'm very positive and very optimistic. I want everybody to be on the same page. I want to lift everybody up. However, that doesn't always happen. Sometimes, does it mean, are we getting the best results as well? Dale: Totally. I think that the desire, again, going back to desire and then our awareness. Now we've got the ache to support people with the change. Then we build the awareness for folks. We help people be aware of what it is that they need to do. I think we need to help people be aware of how they work through resistance, how they work through people's fear. When we do that, then we're like, "Okay, now we've got something." When you're talking about cultural, the one thing that I'd say, and this is what I love about the brain, is it doesn't matter where you're from, how long you've been on the planet. Your brain still is either going through threat or reward in a moment. Our motivations are what's consistent between us, the same with the way our brain responds. That's why I think it's so foundational to know. Shaun: It's so universal. Dale: Oh, yes. Absolutely, it is. Really, we're looking at what are the motivators. If this 20% is so, so, so keen to support the change, it's like they have internal motivators. The people who aren't, they also have internal motivators. How do we have the motivations talk as opposed to it's my way or the highway, right? If we talk about the motivations, it's like, "You've got a need for efficiency?" "Cool. So do I." "Oh, you think that's the only way to do it? What about this one?" It's just like we usually argue or where the conflict happens is because our strategies to meet our needs, our motivations are different. Just the strategy, but the reason, the motivations are the same. We both want to do this effectively. Shaun: Yes, end goal, same journey, maybe a little different based on personality, upbringing, whether you ate that morning. You could be tired, you didn't sleep, your kid would have kept you up all night. Dale: Exactly. If you sift through all of that, that becomes a distraction to what the goal is. That's what often happens in leadership is we're like, "I really love what Shaun said. Oh, but I loved what Dale said. Ooh, how do I--" We're getting caught and distracted by that, where it's like-- Shaun: Right, details. Dale: Yes, totally. In leadership, it's like we can't afford that distraction. It'll take us away from us moving forward. Shaun: Is this resonating with you guys in terms of your teams? I really don't know necessarily what the inner workings of everybody's teams would be, but I think it's applicable across the board, no matter what kind of team or what kind of business you're in. What are the positive effects on the entire team when leadership is conscious, creative, and flexible? What would you say? Talk a bit about that. About how that impacts the entire-- Dale: About being conscious? Shaun: Conscious, flexible, and creative. Creativity is something you may not think of immediately when you think of business, but talk about creativity when it comes to leadership, how important it is to be creative. Dale: The other day, I was with a team, and the leader was explaining that they're super stuck because they just had people. Right now, in this particular place, they're downsizing, and they're having a really hard time. You can imagine, and I just would love to hear from you all, but when you're downsizing, if you can just imagine it, if it's not been your reality, but what do you think shows up in the team, amongst team members, when you're about to announce that you're downsizing or right-sizing. Let's say if you're splitting an organization or some people are going to lose their footing because they might not be doing what they were doing before? I would love to hear from you. Shaun: Yes, yell it out. What do you think, what comes up? Dale: Yes, fear. Speaker 3: Anxiety. Dale: Anxiety. What do you think happens between people? Speaker 3: Jealousy, conflict. Speaker 6: Competitive. Dale: Competitive, jealousy, conflict. What did you say over here? Speaker 7: Tension. Dale: Tension. Remember, I was saying earlier that leadership shows up when there's a challenge? Because really, then it's how am I going to be during tension, fear, anxiety, challenge? How do I lead in that moment? That's where creativity comes in. How can I create with what is happening? That can be challenging. My parents are Jamaican, and when I wanted to give me a recipe for soup or something, my mom will say, "Oh, Dale, you just need a little bit of salt and a little bit of--" I'm like, there is no measuring cup that says a little bit. In fancy places like maybe at Lee Valley or something, there is, but there isn't actually one. I always think of creativity and leadership means what's the ingredient that is needed right now? What do I need a little bit more of when there's fear and anxiety and challenge? This is where I find if we don't have that consciousness, if we don't have that practice of understanding internal motivators, understanding the messages that people say in between, it's like how do I read between the lines? If I get too caught in details, then I end up being more of a mediator instead of actually someone helps people lead through what's going on and make decisions that are supportive of themselves. People can have agency to figure out what they need to do. It's more about can I inspire them to make the move that is the healthiest for them and for their client, their colleague, or whomever. When there's fear, and it's really high, the brain shuts down. Shaun: Oh, shuts down. Dale: Big time, big time, big time. It's like, how do I get this thought in that this person might see it as something that they could do to move? Consciousness, I need to be aware of how people are in fear. Their brain is closing. They can't take the information. What would it compel us to do then to have people open where their brain's like, "Yes, give it to me. Tell me. Tell me what you got for me, Dale. How do I do that?" How we ask questions in those moments really matter. Shaun: If we can talk about fear for a second, because fear is one of those things, like you say, closes up, shuts down. My biggest criticism of myself is, and I think this is in relationships too, and with my kids, I'm sure it applies in leadership. If someone comes to me with a stressful situation, I'm a problem solver, so I want to say right away, "Well, this is what you need to do," or "This is how to get it done." Sometimes they don't want a solution. They just want to be heard. Does that also apply in business and in leadership with teams? Acknowledging their fear and allowing them to be inside of the fear as opposed to saying, "No, no, no, don't be fearful. Don't worry. It's all going to be good. You got nothing to worry about." The person is freaking out inside. How do you manage that? That's an emotional thing that you're obviously not going to get inside that fear clump by trying to solve the problem right away. It sounds like you want some time where they can finally be open. How do you get through that moment, and what do you do, especially if you're on a time crunch? Dale: Someone said this to me the other day. I loved their feedback when I was sharing this, but they just said, "You don't want to learn to swim when you're drowning." It's what you do now. This is why I'm saying about desire. Oftentimes, I'm working with people, and they want the change, but they don't want to do the work because it's not crisis time yet. I'm saying, "Don't wait until there's a crisis. You really do need to practice." I think what happens is when you have a client or a colleague who's in high fear where you experience that challenge or the anxiety, you've had that before, right? What do you think your best way to be with them is? You're feeling their tension, their anxiety, their fear. What's your way? Shaun: Yell it out. Speaker 4: Acknowledge, calm. Dale: Acknowledge, calm, empathetic, supportive. How easy is it to do that when someone's in front of you, they're like, "Oh my gosh, I can't just believe this. This is really happening. I can't believe it. Oh my gosh, and you told me that this is what I'm supposed to do"? What usually naturally happens to you? Dale: Yes, you elevate. You see why this is a you thing, right? I always say if there's someone spicy or they've got fire and I had fire, what do we have more of? We got double the fire. I need to dose my own. This is what conscious leadership is about. It's how can I regulate when someone's going like, "No, no, come with me up here. It's really fun." You're like, "No, no, no, I really don't want to. I just did the session with you all and Shaun. Shaun was reminding me about zenning myself, and all I want to do is throw some bombs." The practice matters. We learn to regulate even when someone else is going high. If we don't, then we are outside of what's called our window of tolerance, actually. This is where my capacity is, and I am above capacity. I need a way back. Shaun: Where are places that we can practice this? Dale: You could come hang out with me for one. Really, coaching is helpful. I'm not saying that you need to do that with me. You might want to do it with Shaun because he's going to be more-- I'm fun too, and I can do the splits. I don't know if Shaun can, but-- Shaun: I can do splits. Dale: You can do the splits, then come with me then. You're going to have more fun. Shaun: Yes, for sure. Splits, wins, every time. Dale: You practicing your own awareness and one of the things that you can do is when you are with someone who is highly charged, even if you do this afterwards, if you write down, if you just look at, what was it? Can I pinpoint what was the exact thing that was charging them? What was it that triggered them? What was it that activated them? That's where I find it's really difficult for many people. People say to me, John's always like that. Sorry, John. Any John's in your story. John's always like that. He always does that. I watch for language like that. Imagine what happens when we say that about John? John's always like this. A little louder. Speaker 5: John believes it. Dale: John believes it. Exactly. How does John treat that person? This is what I'm saying about consciousness. We'll treat them exactly how we believe them to be. There's no room for anything else. We're not conscious of what else is possible with this person. It's our own bias in essence. Again, if we understand motivations, we would go, "I can sift through all of what John was saying and go, 'Okay, John has a need for support. That's interesting.'" Went about it a little funky. He was yelling, and he was wanting support. I don't want to support him. That's what we want to do is we want to see, "Do we understand internal motivations and what it creates?" Really, just how our thinking then creates what we say, which creates our behaviors out in the world. Shaun: I think we always are comparing, contrasting, and then drawing from our own lives all the experiences that we've had as individuals. We see John, he's having a little bit of a freak out for whatever reason. Then we want to try to understand where they're coming from. As a parent, as a new dad, honestly, one of these things, this idea, I've read this book called Good Inside, but this idea that you assume that the other person's intentions, they're not coming from a bad place. It's actually calling out for something that they need. What is the need that they need right now? Acknowledging that and saying, "Listen, you're not a bad person because you threw that binder across and you broke that plant." It's not proper behavior, and probably would be let go. You know what I mean? Assuming that where they're coming from, finding the good place that they're coming from, and how can I help with that issue? We are highly charged individuals. How do you manage somebody? It's also a workplace scenario. It's not simply in your human relationships, which all applies, but in a workplace scenario where you have a certain level of standards, practices, behavioral expectations at the office within the team. If someone goes far outside that, how would you advise leaders to manage that? Dale: It still is the same to me, though, because it still is a human response. That is a question I get often. People say, "So-and-so was so unprofessional." I was like, "What did they do?" They're so human that they got angry. Even if the way that they got angry, they threw the binder and broke the plant. It still is anger, and it still needs the same response. To me, it's not about condoning behavior at all. It's actually more that I need to understand what the need is. What's the internal motivator that created the anger? Actually, I want them to understand it. I want to coach in a way that you tell me what you were really looking for there. Shaun: That's interesting. Using questions is a good thing. "John, you're always like this. John, tell me more." Take me through actually script. What would you say to somebody in that situation? Dale: I don't actually have a script, but I can do it. Can someone tell me a challenge that they've had? You could, too, if you want. Shaun: Let me see, what's a good challenge I've had? You gave Steve the promotion, but I feel like I've been working as hard, if not harder. Why am I not getting the due that I'm owed? Dale: What is it that you-- I'd love for you to just share with me, what are all of the things when you think about this job, if you were to get the promotion? Shaun: Look at the numbers. Yes, it's all numbers. I've got numbers. I've seen his numbers. Plus, he's obsessed with his car all the time. He's outside doing his car, and he smokes. I'm not doing that. I'm even putting in the hours. Dale: Let's stay with you, though. Shaun: Yes. I'm just saying, though, because compared to him, it's all-- Dale: I don't want you to compare yourself to him. I want you to tell me-- Shaun: I can't help it because he's the one who got the thing. Dale: He's not even here. Shaun: I got another baby on the way, and I didn't even know about it. This person showed up from Scarborough and told me about this 10 years ago thing that happened. Dale: This is what happens when you're clubbing. I'm not going to diss you for clubbing because I like a good clubbing. Shaun: Yes, I liked clubbing, too, back in the day. Dale: I want you to stay with me here for a second. Shaun: Okay, I'm just really high right now. Dale: This is what I noticed. Your clubbing got you another gift of a baby, which is beautiful. Shaun: You call it a gift. I call it a debt. Dale: I guess this is really about how you actually figure out what you want to do next. You're looking at this promotion, and you're wondering why you didn't get it. Shaun: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Dale: I just want you to track with me for just a moment, just so that I can really be here with you. I want you to share with me what are all of the things, all of the reasons why you know that you deserve it. Shaun: I look at my numbers. I put so much energy in getting these numbers up. I look at the stats, and I've always been there. You know that I'm here at 5:00 in the morning every day. I don't understand why. Dale: What's the part? What do you think is missing? What do you think? Shaun: I don't know. Maybe it's true. At home, I've been feeling really stressed out, too. I've been very anxious. The cost of living is going up. There's wars all over the world. I don't even know what to do. Dale: I know. I just want you to take a breath for just a moment. I get the war thing, but let's just stay here because it is-- Shaun: Maybe I'm catastrophizing. Dale: I'm listening to you, and I'm hearing about wars and all of that, and Steve getting the promotion. Shaun: Don't say his name. Dale: I know. We won't. We'll call him John because I find that's just really-- John's a safe word. Shaun: Call him John, I like to call him jerk. Dale: Stay with me. John, yes, breathe. Good. I'm hearing you talk about cost of living. Shaun: Cost of living, pressures at home, new kid on the way that it was like she's actually 15. I have no idea. She showed up. Dale: You've got some catch-up to do? Shaun: I got some catch-up to do. Dale: What you're really concerned about isn't the promotion. It's that you-- What? Tell me. Shaun: That's right. It is. It's probably more about just all the outside stuff. I see when jerk gets-- Dale: We're not even focused. He's not even here. We're not even going to say his name, even. How about that? If he does, I'm out. If you really want your help, then… Shaun: I'm sorry and all. I just want to be seen. I feel like I want to get the due that I deserved. I was third-line goalie, too. That was frustrating. I didn't even start. This goes back further. Oh, this is deeper than what I thought. Dale: Do you see? Do you think maybe if we focused on you just being so present to what's happened, and it sounds like with your 15-year-old showing up, saying she wants to be in your life, and this other person. Shaun: No, you know what? You know what you've helped me do right now? You're helping me work through the true core issue. It isn't about the person who got the promo. It's about-- Dale: You did so well. Can we just take a moment of silence for you being able to do that? It's really good. Shaun: Thank you so much. Oh, my God. I'm recognizing this isn't even about the promotion. Dale: It's not about the promotion. Shaun: Well, listen, I'm still going to keep working as hard as I can here at the library, being an organizer. Dale: I'm so glad. Shaun: Thank you so much for helping me through this. Dale: Earlier, when you were mentioning the goalie thing, maybe this year's your year. I don't know. Shaun: Oh, I like that. Dale: It doesn't matter that you're-- Shaun: I'm going to do peyote for the first time. Dale: Why don't we slow down a little bit? Shaun: I like this. This is great role play. I feel good. Did you guys learn something there? I did. I learned that I have a kid that I didn't even know about. Dale: We just want to see you do right by your kid. Shaun: I'm going to. She deserves a good dad, a half-dad. I'm not even sure yet. I got to go to Maury Povich and get a test on him. We're going to see. Listen, I love that, and I love that process. I think that's-- Dale: Can we name it? What did you notice? Shaun: Well, I noticed it all comes back to me. It all goes inward. It all goes into fears. What are my fears? There's a genuine frustration there sometimes. I think when people are trying so hard to get ahead and be their own leader in their own right, I guess recognition, acknowledgement, that is what everybody wants. If someone else gets it unfair, there's all this blame game. You're saying, though, that in those situations, if people are focusing on others, the energy, you kept bringing me back to myself. Dale: Totally. Do you know why? Because anytime you talk about Steve, the power is all-- He's not even here, and there's nothing I can do, and there's nothing you can do. I understand it, but if I allow you to keep comparing yourself to him, you'll never measure up anyway. I don't have the magic wand for that, nor do you. When I was listening to you, I was like, "Is it the promotion? Is it really that?" I'm hearing that it is about being seen or heard, but I also think there's something about a sense of security. The promotion seemed like it represented some kind of security. Shaun: Of insecurity to me, which really has nothing to do with me. Dale: That's right. Nor with Steve. If I sense that if I had this promotion, then I would have the financial security to pay for my 15-year-old kid and to get back on that hockey game because I'm going to need, after being out for 20 years, I'm going to need-- Shaun: No more third line, bud. No more third line. Dale: You're going to need new knees, all of that. To be able to pay for all of that to get that security, I could hear a sense of security that was needed. This is what I find. The more that we coach and understand, we can go, "Oh, right, my role isn't to then go, okay, I'm going to listen, and then, shoot, now, how am I going to give him the promotion? There's only one job. I like Steve a lot. I like Steve." Shaun: I like Steve, too. Dale: You didn't sound like it, but yes. Shaun: No, we're fine. We play darts on Thursday. He's good. Dale: Nice. I just don't want you to make him the target. This is the thing. Shaun: I won't. Exactly. It's about helping your- Dale: Darting his butt just is not going to look good. Shaun: -client focus on them. Dale: Totally, and what you can do. There's nothing that I could tell you that will satisfy you. When you were naming earlier, because sometimes we do this as leaders, where we go, oh, we listen, and we definitely want to listen to hear, but I'm listening for, what is his deeper motivation? What's his need? Why I could hear it was some sense of security. If I become the Oprah, you get a TV, and you get a TV, that doesn't help you figure out what it is for you. I create another job for you. Then you're there, and you're like, "That dang Steve, though." I'm doing the same thing and- Shaun: It never ends. Dale: It never ends. I don't want to get caught in there. I find that happens often, is that we get caught. We get caught in the story, and it's so addictive. Shaun: We don't want to get caught in the story. Speaking of getting caught, I love this idea of noticing your grip as a leader. Explain that. We have about five minutes left before we have to move through it, but explain a bit about that, and then I want to wrap up with your final thoughts and tools that maybe everybody here can use. Dale: Absolutely. When you were mentioning earlier, it's like you were asking if some things are cultural, right? I love the definition of culture as a people enacting a story. Shaun: Love that. Dale: We're just acting out a story that we believe, and it could be for whatever reason, our cultural background, it could be our age, it could be our birth order, it could be any reason, but it's our story that we enact. It really is our belief system. Sometimes, what I find, much like as we were doing that real play, is that the grip is like, you are holding on to, Steve is this, and Steve is that, and then I've got this 15-year-old, and I don't even know if Maury is going to want me on that show. Does Maurice even exist? I don't even know it. We grip onto something, actually believing that it's like we're actually moving, but actually, in ways, it's just keeping us stuck. I was sharing that there's an image that I have when I think of this is I saw this meme, it was just the words, anyway. I had this image with it. The words are, "Let go, or you'll be dragged." I pictured a pickup truck with one of those thick ropes attached to it, and someone holding on. When you just need to let go, and you're not, so you're dragged all through the streets here, and you're all dusty and dirty, and you're like, "I don't know what's going on," and it's because we're holding on. I often find that we grip onto things, thinking that it's the thing, it's going to help us, but we need to release, we need to let go. I often find that, in leadership, we will, we are like, "I believe it's supposed to be this way. My dad did it this way. My dad owned this organization and this is how we're going to do it," or, "I've learned those ways and I don't have the," as you were mentioning earlier, "the cognitive flexibility to go, 'Oh, look at me gripping.'" It's not the way, it's a way. Shaun: That reminds me of my daughter on her T-bar for the first time. You know the T-bar? The little-- it's got this thing. She did that. She was, the first time on T-bar, she got on her skis, she held on to this thing here, and then it got away from her, and she would not let go. Then she was dreading, and I'm screaming, "Let go.- Dale: Let go, oh. Shaun: -let go." Then, when she let go, she was done with the T-bar- Dale: I can imagine. Shaun: -forever. Dale: I imagine. Shaun: I get it. It's the same idea. I think that's a great, easily thought of mechanism for moving forward. Dale: Absolutely. Shaun: As we close out, it's interesting. What I'm hearing you say is that, first of all, there's not one single way, and it's really all about being flexible, being creative in your leadership style, listening is a big thing, but it's not something-- I have a note here saying how leadership isn't something you necessarily achieve, but it's something you nourish and develop. Talk about that. Dale: That's a similar thing. Again, leadership only shows up, it's really needed, when there's a challenge. I need to nourish my capacity to be with challenges in ways that doesn't create harm. Really, it's like leadership is really about how do I use my power? Am I exercising my power? Am I developing myself in a way that how I use my power, in particular when it's challenging? Does it actually create an environment where people open? If we are in a 911 situation, an emergency situation, it really is about how am I using my power in that moment that allows people to move? That's what we need to do. We're taking care of people. I really think that if I was just to give steps, I think it would be that first we look at, do we have the desire to help create the change? One. Many people do. Two, who are the ones who are willing to build the awareness needed so that I could be in this conversation with the clients, the John's of the world, especially when it's challenging. It doesn't matter what the challenge is. You don't have to read the book and create, "When they are talking about they have a 15-year-old, what do I do? It's on page 172." It's not like that. It's just that there is a tension. It's tension, anxiety, challenge, doubt, fear, worry. When I see that, how do I want to be? I look at, am I listening for the need, or am I listening for their story? Listen for the need in their story. Then ask questions. Ask them. This is where it just takes time. Shaun: Dude, that's a big one. Asking questions versus making statements. I find that with my kids. I'm too busy making statements. No, you don't want to do that. Versus, why do you want to do that? Dale: Yes, or what will that give you? Shaun: Oh, my God. Dale: The one thing I would share just something for all of you, is when you ask a why question, like when you say, "Why did you do that?" Can you feel the energy of that? Why do you make that suggestion? Shaun: It's a little judgy. Dale: Totally. If you ask a what question, if you turn your why's into a what, like, "What did you get out of that?" or "What did you notice as a result of doing that?" You'll completely change people's reaction because the brain shuts down. A why is like, "Okay, I got to defend. Dukes up." That's what you can do. Shaun: That's a good tool. That's a great tool. I'm also thinking about it with my kids, too. It's everything goes through my kids now because I want to be a good leader for my kids. Dale: Totally. Shaun: Well, this is amazing. We talk about pride. This is our big theme here today. Building pride in your organization. I think just by being great leaders, by being an empathetic leader, by being creative. This has been very insightful, Dale. I can't thank you enough. This has been a good-- I hope I didn't freak you out with my little role play. Dale: You did great. Shaun: I did party back in the day. That is true. I may or may not have made a baby with someone at Starbro in the '90s. I may find that out later. Also, I just want to leave with this. I'm going to try. I'm going to see how far down I can get. I can't get. Dale: That's good. Shaun: No, it's not good. That's not good. Dale: You didn't split your pants. That's good. Shaun: That's terrible. I am like, "That's amazing." Shaun: Guys, let's hear it for Dale Allen on REAL TIME. Dale: Thank you. Shaun: Dale, oh my God, this is  Dale: Thank you. Shaun: Thank you so much, Dale. What a pleasure. She'll be around. Please hire her. Dale: I'm with him. I like that. Thank you so much. Shaun: All right. Be well. Be well.

Whether facing mobility, visual, or auditory barriers, many clients require accommodations to make the real estate journey more accessible. This is something every REALTOR® can help with—it doesn’t have to be up to just a few who specialize in accessibility. Jeffrey Kerr, a REALTOR® and author of Barrier Free Real Estate: Achieving Freedom at Home has spent more than 20 years advocating for more accessibility in real estate and helping clients with disabilities navigate the process. Jeffrey joins this episode of the REAL TIME podcast to look at common accessibility setbacks in real estate and how all REALTORS® can help their clients overcome these barriers. Transcript Jeffrey Kerr: Designing homes for everyone, regardless of age or mobility, whether you're eight or 88, that, to me, is the goal. Shaun Majumder: Hey, guys. Today on REAL TIME, I speak with a gentleman named Jeffrey Kerr. He's a real estate agent who has been working with people with disabilities as his clients for many years, all the way back to 2004. He's got a great story to tell, and we're going to go deep on what exactly accessibility means in the world of real estate. We're going to talk about the features in homes, we're going to talk about what's working, what's not, and I think you're going to really enjoy it. Let's dig in. Buckle down. Here we go, my conversation with real estate agent Jeffrey Kerr. Oh, this is exciting. This is exciting, ladies and gentlemen of the world, whether you're in real estate or not. We have an incredible guest today. Somebody who's going to provide some deep insight, some long historical knowledge. Of course, today, joining us on REAL TIME is the one and only Jeffrey Kerr. He is going to tell us why he is such an amazing Blue Jay fan. That is why we're here today to talk about. We're here to talk about the Jays. Of course, I'm kidding. We're both being Jays. Let's see it, baby. Yes, Jeffrey Kerr, Blue Jay fan, which we have to touch on a little bit, but really, that's not what you do. Of course, you are a REALTOR® who has lots of experience in making real estate more accessible, the journey more accessible. Accessibility is what we're talking about today. Something that I know, Jeffrey, I've taken for granted in my mind, when I'm thinking about real estate, and I was thinking about topics, and then when I saw your name come across, and I saw what we're going to talk about today, lights went off. I'm like, "Of course. Oh, my gosh." Thinking about all the people who need to have access. First of all, tell us a bit about your background and why you, in this discussion, and what accessibility in real estate means to you, but also to the world? Jeffrey: Thank you, Shaun. It's great to be here. I certainly appreciate the opportunity to come on the podcast and talk about accessible real estate. It's something that I've been doing for a lot of years. I grew up in a family. My aunt had MS. My mom is an occupational therapist/physiotherapist who worked at Toronto Rehab. It was just a fact of life for me growing up in that environment. When it came to real estate, it was just a natural fit for me to work with people with disabilities and help them find a home that works for them. For many years, I've written articles for the Canadian Paraplegic Association, which is now the Spinal Cord Injury Ontario. I've written articles for them. I've took those articles, and I've actually put them all together in a book, which I call Barrier Free Real Estate - Achieving Freedom at Home. I wrote this book basically as a resource for people who are suddenly in need of an accessible home, and they don't know where to start. Shaun: What percentage of your clients are those with disabilities? Jeffrey: It varies from year to year, but on average, it's probably about 65% to 70% of the buyers and sellers that I work with are people with disabilities or are looking for a home to accommodate someone. Shaun: Right, because these are things that maybe, obviously, if you don't have disabilities, it's not top of mind, but, man, you are a very important specialist when it comes to this in terms of going through the checklist of what is needed to make a house more accessible. Why is it that accessibility in real estate matters, broadly speaking? Then I'd like to get down into some details about what exactly are those things per room that we need to think about when we're thinking about accessibility? Jeffrey: I think it's important for everyone because everyone, regardless of their age, whether you're eight or 88, you can appreciate an accessible home. It could be a parent pushing a stroller, it could be someone looking to age in place, it could be a family member that you want to welcome into your home. Regardless of the reason, accessibility is so important in our homes for everybody. Whether you realize it or not, there are people in your life that will benefit from an accessible home and being able to enjoy your home as much as you do when they come to visit. It could be you have an injury, you sprain your ankle, and suddenly climbing the stairs are a challenge. It could be anything. You're welcoming an older parent to come and visit, so having access to a washroom is important so that they can stay. There's an entrance solution so that you can welcome people into your home. There's just so many factors into it, and accessibility, I feel, is just important for everyone. Shaun: When you first started thinking about this as a business model, in a way, what were the things, the barriers that you were seeing? Is the system already being conscious and doing their best to accommodate, or are you seeing that in the beginning it was really lacking, now there's a little more awareness, so it's becoming more prevalent in the discussions, or are you saying it's right where it needs to be right now? Where would you say, on the scale, the overall buying and selling experience is like for people who need accessibility? Jeffrey: To circle back, I've been a REALTOR® since 1999, so for quite a few years. Back when I started focusing on accessibility around 2004, there was one other real estate agent in Ontario that was focusing on working with people with disabilities. There really was no model to follow there. There really wasn't a lot of information out there to help find homes that are accessible or could be made accessible. Slowly, over the years, that's improving. What I found early on, it was a question of understanding what people's needs are and then going through the listings and identifying homes that could meet those needs. Fast forward to today, the real estate boards are getting a little better in gathering information on the homes and the accessibility features within those homes. It's a little easier to find properties, but it's still, in my opinion, it's not where it needs to be. Shaun: What was it that inspired you to say, "Oh, these are the people that are not being looked at. We need to take care of that. In my newfound, I got my license. Here we go. I know I can specialize." Was there one specific incident that made you say, "Oh, this is what I want to do and focus on," or was that the reason you got into real estate to begin with? Tell me about that story, about what made you say, "Oh, this has got to be for me." Jeffrey: I think the aha moment was in 2004 when my aunt needed to sell a pre-construction condo that she purchased in the mid-'90s. It was supposed to be wheelchair accessible. My aunt and uncle went into the sales office, bought what they were told was a wheelchair accessible condo. Through construction delays, my uncle had passed on before that condo was ready for occupancy. I was with Aunt Jean when she rolled through the front door, and she knew very quickly that she couldn't live there independently. She handed me the keys and said, "Jeff, I need you to sell this condo for me." The condo had a really good bathroom, large bathroom with a roll-in shower, but the kitchen itself was a joke. It was so poorly designed, there was no way that she could live there independently and look after meals. I actually started researching selling accessible condominiums and there was no resources out there. I met with, gentleman who name is Kevin Rogers at, at the time, it was called the Canadian Paraplegic Association. I was asking him what his advice was to market this condominium. He provided some advice for me. We had a great chat. At the end of the chat, he said, "Jeff, our community really needs someone with your background and your willingness to learn to help find accessible homes." That was the moment where things became clear in my mind that this is something that is a natural fit for me. Again, it was a good business opportunity as well. It was a perfect fit. Shaun: That's amazing. I love that. Did you feel like, "Oh, this is almost a newfound purpose?" It sounds like to do what you did when you jumped in, the things that motivated you to get there, it wasn't as simple as, "I'm going to get my real estate license, and I'm just going to--" You were motivated by a passion and a vision for what was missing. Jeffrey: Yes. Going even further back, I was building houses before I got my real estate license. I got my license to help sell the homes that I was building. That in itself gave me a really good understanding of homes, how they're built, and how to identify homes that could be modified for accessibility. Then accompany that with the accessibility side of things. Again, it was just a really good fit. It's also very rewarding. I get an opportunity to work with some fantastic people who have challenges that they need solutions for. I'm able to help them find solutions. Again, it's a very rewarding part of my business. Shaun: I think we take for granted some of these challenges. Take me through some of those things, but first, actually, I want to ask you, what are some of the shortfalls that you've noticed making it harder for those with mobility issues or those with visual or auditory limitations when it comes to searching for a home? Jeffrey: The information that's shared out there is not immediately evident as to what the accessibility features are or how these homes can be modified. It starts with disseminating information and finding properties that can work, are already accessible, or can be modified to meet my client's challenges. It always starts with a conversation with a person as to what are their needs. There's the traditional real estate questions, location, budget, but when it comes to barrier-free accessible real estate, then it's a question of what are the individual's specific needs that need to be accommodated within their home, and then helping them find that perfect fit. Shaun: It's not one size fits all? Jeffrey: It definitely is not one size fits all. Every individual is unique, and the solutions that work for them have to be unique and tailored to them as well. Shaun: You had mentioned earlier that it's not clear when you're doing a search which houses are accessible or have accessibility features. If I'm just a person who is looking for a home and I want to do a broad search, I don't even have an agent yet, I would love to be able to go and see what houses do have accessibility features and which ones don't. Jeffrey: Buyers love searching on REALTOR.ca. People are addicted to it. Shaun: Love it. Jeffrey: It's great. They do their research, and then they reach out and say, "Hey, I want to look at this house. If that resource was able to provide additional information about accessibility features, then that would be a definite bonus. Shaun: Let's talk about some of those features. For example, can we go through what some of these features might be? In the dream world, where we can say, "This is what's going to be in the listing," what are some of those features that most of your clients are looking for? Jeffrey: The two main features are definitely an entrance solution and a bathroom solution. You've got to be able to get in and out of the home or condominium safely, and the bathroom is necessary, obviously, to be able to stay. Those are probably the two primary features that buyers would be looking for. How do I get in and out of the home? What does the bathroom look like? Shaun: I think if I were just to take that for granted, stairs are obviously not for everybody. The solution would be, would you look for a home that would have the ability to create a ramp, or it comes with a ramp? Am I right in assuming that that would be a solution to stairs? Jeffrey: Yes. The entrance solution can take many different possibilities, a ramp, a landscape ramp, a wood ramp, a metal ramp, or it could even be a platform lift on the outside of a house. It depends on the height difference from the outside grade to the front door threshold. What's that height? Can it be reached by a ramp, or would a ramp be too steep? We've got to look at doing a platform lift. Shaun: Talk to me about the bathroom. Jeffrey: We always have to talk about the bathroom. Generally, when I'm talking with a buyer for the first time, the conversation quickly goes to the bathroom, because it's, what are their specific needs within a bathroom? Is it a zero-threshold roll-in shower? Is it a bathtub where they could work with a bath bench and then transfer into the bathtub? It is one of the first conversations, and it's one of the more important ones. Shaun: It's very important. Getting on and off the toilet, entering the bathroom, the shower space is really important, the bathtub space is really important. When you're looking for a house, how much of it are you looking for that is already built in versus the ability to modify? Jeffrey: The majority of the clients that I work with, we look for a house that can be modified for their needs, and there's a couple reasons for that. Finding an accessible home that's ready to go and available is pretty rare, and a lot of those homes were modified for a specific individual. Once they have a home that meets their needs, they stay for as long as they can in that property. They don't come up for sale very often. If they do, is there a buyer out there who can make use of the accessibility features in that home? If it was modified for a specific individual, or was it modified more for universal design, which can accommodate anybody regardless of age or mobility? To go back to your question, the majority of my buyers end up buying a house or a condo that they can modify for their needs so they can make it exactly what they need it to be. Shaun: What about kitchen? Jeffrey: For the most part, I found people can make do with traditional kitchens as long as there's room enough to maneuver a wheelchair, particularly if you're cooking in a seated position. If an individual is living by themselves, then maybe they need to be looking at a modified kitchen. Kitchens can vary quite a bit. There's a lot of modifications you can make in a kitchen to make it accessible, like a roll-under sink, lower countertops, ovens, or a cooktop that have the controls on the front so that individuals don't have to reach over a hot element in order to change the temperature. There's a lot of safety features that have to be considered. Shaun: Then I also heard there's a way to sometimes-- Some of it is pretty inventive and creative. I heard about you can push a button and things lower to you. You can get these built into your home? Jeffrey: Yes. There's a company that will modify your kitchen cabinets so that the inside of the cabinets actually will lower down to the counter height. Then you can place your items on the shelves, and then hit a button or click a remote, and then the shelves rise back up. There's also shelving that was on a handle so that you can pull them down to a lower level. There's a lot of technology and innovation out there to make the kitchen accessible. Shaun: Then as I'm walking through the home, I guess there's the entrance issue with stairs that can be resolved. What about within a home, going up and down the stairs if there are stairs or multi-leveled homes? Jeffrey: A lot of homes are too small. The footprint is too small to add a mechanical lift between two floors. A big part of looking for an accessible home is finding a space that could accommodate an elevator. An elevator being an elevator in an enclosed shaft that goes between three or more floors. There's also a product called a telecab, which is essentially like a London telephone booth that goes between two floors. That gets mounted on a load-bearing wall, runs on a track, and that's sometimes a little easier to fit into a home. Two-story homes, I think, are good in that they often have a lot more square footage. With the cost of real estate, the majority of the cost of a home is land value. It's not always possible to find a large ranch bungalow that's all in one level. A lot of people have to consider a two-story home and then find a solution to get up to the second floor. Shaun: What about when we think about people with auditory or visibility challenges, what are some of those features that are considered in the buying and selling of homes? Jeffrey: In condominiums now, for those who are hard of hearing or deaf, you'll notice with the smoke detectors now, they have strobe lights. It's not just a siren or an alarm that goes off. It's actually a strobe light that is very, very powerful. There's also, for lack of a better word, like a thumper that you can put in your bed so that if the smoke alarm or the CO detector goes off in the night, it actually wakes you up- Shaun: Wow. Jeffrey: -in your bed. There's definitely technology out there that can help in the home-buying, home-selling process. Shaun: I love that. Now, with the advancement of technology in terms of lighting and switches and air conditioning, heat, HVAC, what are some of those advances that you're seeing that are not only convenient for people with accessibility needs, but just generally speaking? Jeffrey: The whole home can be automated from opening doors to turning on lights to turning on motion sensor faucets. Pretty much everything in a home can be automated so that if someone's not able to physically do the tasks themselves, they can use something like Google Home and just say, "Hey, Google, turn on the light," or "Hey, Google, open the door." There's so many options right now in home automation, and it really provides a lot of flexibility and freedom for people to live independently at home. Shaun: Yes. Jeff, I know that there are some organizations, there are some places in Canada that are starting on the good foot there. They're leading the charge. I'm actually here in Nova Scotia now where I've recently repatriated to, and as it turns out, the Nova Scotia Association of REALTORS® are really working hard to include more of those details in listings, really trying to shine a light on those features that are needed in the accessibility space. Jeffrey: Absolutely. I think it's a great pilot project. I can speak to what's happening in Ontario. Over the last few years, there's more and more data that's being collected for homes and the accessibility features. I think it's so important to have that data and make it available. It's not just in Nova Scotia and Ontario, but all across Canada, this needs to be done so that everybody across the country has as easy access to the data and searching for homes. I can't stress the importance of having floor plans for people to understand the flow of the home and being able to look at options for increasing a bathroom size. I think floor plans are crucial. They're definitely a valuable tool in the listing, along with all of the room data and the features data. Shaun: Right. Now, is there something to be said about the definition of what makes something an accessibility feature? If I'm selling and I want to brand it as, "This is an accessible home," because we said it's not the same for everyone, is there some kind of criteria that makes something specifically thumbs up, it gives us the accessibility approval? Jeffrey: The short answer is no. I think it's somewhat subjective to the individual who's inputting the listing as to what features, if they consider them accessible. Now, some of the criteria in terms of door widths, is there a roll-in shower? Is there an elevator? Those features are very specific. I find that there's a lot of listings out there that say they're accessible, but when you drill down, they're just talking about being accessible to the bus stop or accessible to the grocery store. It doesn't always line up with accessible from a mobility accessibility point of view. Accessible doesn't really have, I guess, a set definition when it comes to listing. Shaun: I think of even your Aunt Jean, was it? Jean, she thought it was going to be, and then she gets in and is like, "No, this is not going to work." Jeffrey: Yes, exactly. Had she had some more information about the kitchen layout, then yes, she probably would have known it more in advance that that wasn't going to work for her. That's a great example. You've got to have more information. Shaun: Now, that was in 2004, and you have been working with clients for so many years. I'm sure a lot of agents who are watching this, REALTORS® watching this now, are like, "Yes, I want to be more involved and work with those clients more." What is a respectful way to approach accessibility in real estate with clients? Jeffrey: I think it starts with a conversation. Every client is going to have a unique set of needs. It's just a question of talking to them, asking them what an accessible home means to them, and what are their needs, and just helping to understand how language is so important. How would you like me to speak to you? I always default to person-first language. People with disabilities, you're a person with a disability. I have a client who said, "No, Jeff, I'm a disabled person. That's how I want to be referred to." That's their choice, but that's just a conversation that we had so that I can speak to them in a way that they're comfortable with. I don't think people need to be intimidated by it. Just simply ask the individual the questions. There's a saying that I love. It's nothing about me without me. Shaun: Oh, I love that. Jeffrey: Nothing about me without me. Don't make decisions on behalf of a person without asking them first. I think that's just so important. People love to be heard and listened to. People will always be happy to tell you their story. You'll learn information, and you'll learn how to speak to them effectively and respectfully, and then just take it from there. Shaun: I think it's just like any personal one-on-one relationship. When you're developing a relationship, a bond, a shorthand, this relationship is going to last for a while because you really want to get to know, whether they are a person with disabilities or not, you always want to know what are their needs, what are their wants. In this case, it sounds like you don't need to tiptoe around anything. Just having a direct conversation asking, how do you like to be referred? How do you see yourself? What can I do to accommodate that? I think that just is, it's almost common sense, but maybe in the world we live in where people, they're not sure. I think it's good hearing that from you. Jeffrey: It's not a quick and easy transaction. There's always some extra layers. There's always extra time. Working with people with disabilities is not for a person who likes to do a quick sale, a quick buy. That's not going to happen. It takes time to understand the client and to find them the right home. There's a lot of extra layers in terms of bringing in accessibility consultants to make sure that the home can be modified properly. There's a lot of extra considerations. That's why you need to be willing to spend that extra time with a client to make sure that It's done properly. Shaun: I love that. When I think about some of these features and these elements, some of them, they actually sound beneficial to able-bodied and persons with disabilities. Talk to me about universal design. Talk to me about, are there-- We know it's not one size fits all, but clients are obviously thinking about resale value as well. A young person coming up, they know they need certain features in the house, but then they know that what if they want to move on? What if they get a job somewhere else in a different city? They want to sell their house. How are people with disabilities thinking about the resale value, or are they? Are most people, when they find their house, they stay? Talk to me a bit about that. Jeffrey: I think for the most part, if someone buys a home and has it modified for their needs, they'll stay there for as long as they can. There's certain modifications that can be made that are very-- They make the home more saleable. For instance, a zero-threshold shower. I also call it a roll-in shower. That's probably one of the features that is most in demand with the clients that I work with. That feature, an elegant roll-in shower, is beneficial for everyone regardless of age or mobility. A lot of homes now are being built with these elegant zero-threshold showers. It's just a nice feature to have, and that definitely adds to the resale value. On the other side of the coin is features that may be right for the individual, but not necessarily great on the resale value. I actually find, as an example, would be a walk-in tub. Those are fantastic for individuals who need them or like to use them. They're great tools. I always tell my clients, if that's something that you want, and that helps you live independently and comfortably in your home, then absolutely put one in, but when it comes to resale, don't expect to get your money back out of it because finding the buyer who wants that feature is pretty rare. Shaun: Because people love bathtubs, people love taking baths, are there ults to that? Jeffrey: There's not a lot of options when it comes to bathtubs. I agree with you. There's a lot of people who are bathtub people. They absolutely want a bathtub. If that's what's necessary, then go for it. There's also a chair that you can put in the bathtub that will then lower you into the tub. That's an option too. Again, it comes down to the individual and what works for them. Another example are chair glides where you have a staircase where you have a mechanical chair that glides up the stairs. They're very helpful for people who are able to walk but maybe not navigate stairs, but when it comes to the resale value, I find that people aren't willing to pay a premium for a chair glide. They're more of a temporary fix for the individual. Again, a walk-in tub, it's difficult to get the money back out of those when it comes to resale. Shaun: What are the other considerations? When you're talking to real estate agents who are out there, what are some other things to consider when you're engaging with clients? Jeffrey: The accessibility consultants, we touched upon it earlier. I think it's really important that when an individual is looking at a home that you bring in the experts to confirm that the specific modifications can be done. Again, what the cost is. It's one thing to be able to do the renovation, but what's it going to cost? Then there's the safety component of it. Is there a second means of getting out of the home in an emergency? A lot of people are concerned with high-rise buildings. They want to be on the ground floor of a condominium because they want to be able to get out in an emergency. The solution for that is called an evacuation chair. These are fold-up portable chairs that you can have either in the stairwell or in your unit that in a case of an emergency, you can transfer into the chair, and then someone can push you down the stairs because they have tracks on them that are designed to be pushed down a staircase. Shaun: Wow. Jeffrey: That's a solution for people who are concerned about living in a high-rise. Fire department ladders will only go up to the seventh floor, and that's only if the fire truck can get right beside the building. When you look at most downtown cores, there's buildings popping up everywhere, and they're multi-story. How do you get out in an emergency? In a evacuation chair. Shaun: This has been such an important conversation. I think REALTORS® and real estate agents, they need to get caught up on all of this information. I think it's important to be able to connect with many people of all kinds. In closing, what are your things that, number one, you feel like the system needs to really catch up on, whether it be in the listings or what have you? What are other ways? Are there builders that need to consider more things? What would you do if you could be in control of everything? What would you change? What do you think is working? What do you think, Jeff? Jeffrey: I think there's a lot of things that are working and that just needs to be improved on in terms of getting that data, getting that information out there to the public and helping everybody find homes that are accessible because when an accessible home comes on the market, it's really important to find the right buyer for that home, a buyer who appreciates all the accessibility features. That's certainly one thing. Builders. There's a builder in Toronto, the Daniels Group, that is ahead of the curve in terms of offering pre-construction condos that are fully accessible. There's another group that's called the Accelerating Accessibility Coalition, which is a group of builders and professionals that are involved in the building industry. This group has got together to advocate accessibility and to promote accessibility. These are all things that are happening that are very positive and important. I certainly want to see these initiatives to continue. Again, it's just having a conversation and just willingness to learn. That's how I got started way, way back. I just had a willingness to learn. You talk to the right people and you talk to your clients and just be open-minded. Shaun: It's amazing because from what I understand, if I'm thinking about people who may come as clients, they're all going to be from all kinds of backgrounds and even with different disabilities. Talk to me a bit about that, some of the people that you've worked with. Jeffrey: Aging in place is very popular now. There are people wanting to stay in the homes and in the communities that they're comfortable in. Can their homes be modified over time to accommodate their deteriorating mobility? That's something to consider as well. Again, going back to designing homes for everyone, regardless of age or mobility, whether you're eight or 88, being able to live independently in that home for as long as you want, that, to me, is the goal. Shaun: Thank you so much for doing what you do. This has been an incredibly insightful conversation. Jeffrey: Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it and I appreciate you bringing me on the pod. Shaun: You got it. See you, Jeff. Go Jays go. Thanks so much, Jeffrey. What a great conversation, shining a light on accessibility issues in real estate. I learned a lot. I hope you guys did too. Of course, if you liked today's episode, be sure to like and subscribe wherever you digest your favorite podcast. Of course, today's episode is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA), production brought to you by Alphabet® Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. Thanks for joining us on REAL TIME. We'll see you next time on REAL TIME. What a time. What a time.

Social media is a strong tool in the world of real estate. A REALTOR®’s online presence and personality can directly impact their professional success. Katie Hession, also known as YOWCityStyle on Instagram, recently expanded her career to real estate. YOWCitySold is where she now leverages her experience as a professional social media influencer to build her business in real estate. She joins this episode of the REAL TIME podcast to share her journey from influencer to REALTOR®, why authentic content is always going to rise above, and how fellow REALTORS® can leverage social media to form stronger connections with their community and grow their business. Transcript Katie Hession: You don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great. I used to be a Christmas elf for Santa Claus at the shopping mall. Shaun Majumder: Amazing. Shaun is a wizard. You know, these days personal brand can lead to professional success, but what exactly does that mean? Personal brand, what is my personal brand? You know what? Social media plays a huge role in everything we do in life. As REALTORS®, how can, in this day and age in 2026, how can we leverage social media to help with our professional success and grow our brand, both professionally and personally, and how they come together? Today we're talking to Katie Hession. She's an influencer. She's been through the social media game for the last 10 years and is now officially jumping into the real estate game. You can follow her on YOWCityStyle or most recently at YOWCitySold. When I say YOW, I do mean Y-O-W, Ottawa peeps. You know what I'm talking about. This is really exciting because, for somebody who has taken a personal brand and also been able to help other people build their personal brands, and now turning that into a professional brand and is about to grow, it's going to be exciting to hear our conversation with Katie Hession. Katie Hession, I'm so stoked that you're here. I'm so stoked that we're going to have this conversation today. We're going to talk about personal brand. We're going to talk about your business brand, how they come together, something that, you know, a lot about and have been building over the years, which is so cool. In this world we live in now, man, so much lives online and who you are personally, but when we're talking to our REALTORS®, how important is the personal brand right now in everything that we're doing in business, especially in the real estate space? How important is that, or will this just be a fad and it'll be gone in a few years, and we can all just get back to the old school of putting up flyers? Katie: I mean, you can choose to do it or not to do it, but I think one of the things that's always top of mind for a REALTOR® is looking at their sphere of influence and having a personal brand online is really just a way of taking that on turbo speed or magnifying it like crazy. My online community obviously is filled with people who I actually do know in real life, but then there's a lot of people in there that I've never met and hope to meet one day. Shaun: Right. Give us some of your background. Tell us where you were raised, but then also, how did you get into this space? Why did you get into this space, and how has it evolved over time? Katie: It's a long story, but I'm an Ottawa girl born and raised. I mean, if we want to go as far back, my resume is pretty colourful. I used to be a Christmas elf for Santa Claus at the shopping mall. Shaun: Amazing. Katie: I know. Always on the good list. I studied sociology and business at Bishop's University. My first job was working in the audience research department at the CBC. Shaun: Oh, interesting. Katie: Then I went on to get my teaching degree in Australia, came back, taught special ed in Toronto for just over 10 years, moved back to Ottawa, and worked in the nonprofit space for a nonprofit called Mealshare helping to feed kids by working with local restaurants. Now I'm here. I think one of the main things as a common thread throughout my whole life is that I enjoy being a connector. I always remember what people do, what they need, and I love bringing people together to make some magic and make their lives better. Shaun: That's built into your DNA. Some people I know, if you think back now in high school, you think about those people back in the day. They were always at the rallies. They were always face-first in all the fundraising stuff. Were you one of those people? Where do you think you get that from? Katie: You're right. I was definitely on student council and worked at summer camps. I've always been just very outgoing. I think I'm a lot like my dad and also like my grandmother, who was also a REALTOR®. Shaun: Oh, no way. Katie: Yes, I think I definitely, my whole life, people would tell me that I was so much like her. Then again, for years now, everyone's like, "You're so much like her. You've got this personality that just would be really great for real estate." I've thought about her a lot during this journey. Shaun: Oh, that's amazing. I love that personal connection that helps you make decisions later in life of like, oh, no, wait a minute. I thought I was here. Maybe I'm more here, and the spirit of grandma or nana, Nan. What would you call her? Katie: Her name was actually Bonga. Shaun: Bonga. Katie: Bonga. Katie: Not her real name, but that was her grandma name. I think it was one of my cousins. Shaun: That's amazing. Katie: She couldn't say grandma. Yes. Shaun: Because she was a REALTOR®, you were around it. You saw her. You saw her connecting with people. You saw her involvement in the community. You obviously aligned with that. This real estate idea has been probably brewing for a while now because I know you do a lot of social media. Tell us, you're YOWCitySold, but you're also YOWCityStyle on Instagram. Tell us how you took that social media side of things, and now, it's blended with the real estate side of things. You're obviously just a people connector. Katie: Yes. Not just online, in-person as well. It really has been a long time coming. I did start my real estate license back in 2005, 20 years ago. That was when I had my teaching degree, but there weren't really any teaching jobs. It's like, okay, everybody's always told me that I'd make a good REALTOR®, so I started it. Then, of course, ended up getting offered a job, so I shelved it. Then I picked it up again right before the pandemic. I was supposed to write my first exam March 2020 and had to shelf it again. Then, about two years ago, I started the program again. It just felt like the right time. At this point, I've bought and sold two of my own homes. My kids are a little bit older, and I've got this great network online that I think is going to be very helpful. Shaun: Right. Wow, the real estate thing has been brewing for a while, but then, where did the social media side start? Why did you jump into social media? What was social media like when you started versus what it's like now? Where do you see it going in the future? Katie: It's actually been about 10 years now that I've been online. I lived in Toronto for most of my 20s, moved back to Ottawa when I was a mom. While I was on maternity leave, that was when we moved back. I was just trying to figure out the city. Again, I grew up here, so I do know the city quite well, but I needed to get reacquainted with it. Again, like we had said, the people say it's a bit of a boring city. I was like, "You know what? I don't believe that." I remember somebody saying to me, "There's actually a lot going on, but you just need to know the right people and where it's happening." I saw that there was this lack for a resource. I wasn't going to start a magazine or a newspaper or anything like that, but starting a page on Instagram seemed like an easy thing to do. I started it, actually, by featuring other people. I would find somebody who I figured was a tastemaker in the city, and I would ask them, what's the hidden gem in Ottawa that a lot of people don't know about? I wanted to always make sure that it was something local-specific. You couldn't say a big-name restaurant that you like going to. It needed to be a local business here in Ottawa because, really, I really believe that local businesses are a huge part of what gives a city its unique identity. Shaun: Not a chain that came in from the States, and now everybody loves going to that particular one on so-and-so street. You're saying, "No, this is an Ottawa staple. This is very specific to Ottawa," right? Katie: Yes, something you couldn't find anywhere else. Shaun: Right. Katie: Then I landed two writing jobs for two different magazines and realized things are getting going here. Then I was also asked to be the stylist and spokesperson for one of our local shopping malls. That got me going on morning television, doing presentations about fashion, and that's when the brand deals really started to come in. I was really starting to get recognized. Shaun: Which is more powerful right now, would you say, social media or television? Katie: I believe social media. Shaun: Yes. Katie: It's just an easier way to connect to people. If you've got a link to buy something, it's right there. Even here in Ottawa, a local business that I worked with, he went on TV, and he also worked with me. The difference was quite big. I brought him a lot more customers. Shaun: Right. There's something really direct to either your—in my case, if I want people to come out and see me do standup, or if I have a new thing going on, to talk directly to them is different than putting on a face of like, hey, I'm here to promote something to the massive public. When you're talking directly to somebody, they feel it, and they probably respond in a stronger way. What do you think is the most important thing when, whether it's REALTORS® or just people who are trying to expand their personal brand? What are those things that are most important when putting themselves out there? Katie: I think that a strategy that I've had the whole time that hasn't really been a strategy is just showing up as myself. Most of my audience is here in Ottawa, so I will meet people online, meet them in person, and often people comment that I am the same person, whether I'm digital or in real life. Really showing up consistently as the same person over time. Shaun: Are there some people who, online they're one thing, and then you've met people in person, you're like, wait a minute, that's not the same? Katie: For sure. Even how people look sometimes, if they're using filters to change the way that they look online, and then you meet them in person. I'm a filter-free page. I did use them a long time ago, but I haven't used a filter in years. Shaun: Do you think that people respond more, I wouldn't say positively or negatively, but I think in the changing face of a digital landscape, the more real, the better, I would think? Katie: For sure. I think the introduction of AI recently is pretty important for that. Mosseri from Instagram said that they are even having a hard time distinguishing between what is AI content and what is real content because the AI is getting so good. What we're seeing now as a trend is that content that's going to perform better, it's things that are a little bit more raw, a little bit less perfect. You don't want things to look too polished, otherwise, the audience is going to think it's AI. Shaun: Is that going to be counterintuitive, though, for the real estate game? I personally get that, and I think that's important. My dog, the other day, I took a video, and I put her online on my social media, and she spoke English, and then she flew away, which is not real. That does not happen in my household. That was completely generated by AI, but people are probably going to be like, "Shaun is a wizard." In terms of being counterintuitive in the real estate game, because if you go too unpolished, is there a risk, then, of being like, this person is not very professional? You know what I mean? Katie: Yes, we obviously want to be polished to a professional level, but I'm trying to think of an example. I did a video recently for a furniture company, and in my filming, I stumbled over my words. When we edited the video, we actually started it with a little blooper and then got into the real video. Just showing she's a human, she doesn't speak perfectly all the time. There is a way to show that rawness and that realness without coming across as unprofessional. Shaun: I know you have a few different pages, a few different accounts. What's the difference between Katie Hession, YOWCityStyle, and YOWCitySold? Katie: I like to think of them as different lanes, but all with the same driver. Katie Hession, that's me. That's the foundation. That's where my values, my personality, my voice come from. Like I said before, I really, truly make sure that who I am showing up online is who you get in real life. I'm very active in the Ottawa community. I'm a spin instructor. I host charity rides all the time. Actually, I'm at almost every charity event in the city. That's me. That can't be replicated. Then you've got YOWCityStyle, and that's where I show up online expressing more my playful, creative lifestyle side of myself. That's still rooted in community and storytelling about Ottawa, and just my life enjoying it. I like to be a resource for my audience there. In fact, on a Friday night, I can get a DM from somebody like, we're a group of 40-year-old girls. Where do we go for a cocktail at 10 PM? I'm a lifeline here. People DM me these questions constantly. Shaun: You respond. Katie: I respond. Shaun: Right? That's important. Katie: Really, YOWCityStyle is an extension of this community that I've built in real life, but then there's all these people who I hope to meet one day. Sometimes I see them on the street and get to meet them, which is wonderful. Then when we get into YOWCitySold, which is newer, I'm still focusing on living in Ottawa, but it's just a different level of service and guidance and trust and obviously talking about real estate because trust and professionalism in real estate is so important. I really focus on that when I've got my YOWCitySold hat on. I want that because people are making their biggest life decision here and trusting me with it. Shaun: That's awesome. You've got three hats essentially, your personal, it's almost like you're in service to the city, but it all comes back to your personal brand, but YOWCityStyle is a little broader, more social, more fun, and then getting down to business with YOWCitySold, real estate focus. Is that difficult? I would think not with you because you are so authentic through all of them. Katie: It's not difficult, but it's also strategic because a lot of people are like, "Oh, wow, you've got this great following on YOWCityStyle." If I were to start talking about real estate to a much higher level and using that as my main platform to sell, I would imagine I would probably lose some of my community there. I wanted to start a separate page where I could put a lot more content about that there. Then, obviously, using the two channels to cross-pollinate a little bit. You'll see more of me as a real estate agent on YOWCitySold, and then YOWCityStyle is more my day-to-day life. Shaun: You really, even though you started the journey back in 2005, and now you just got your license two years ago, is that correct? Katie: Officially? No, in December. I'm fresh.  Shaun: Oh, dog. That's amazing. I love that. For you to get to this level now, but it has been since 2005 you started that process, you envisioned yourself in that space because you have an amazing grandmother who led the way. Now you're on the cusp. You're starting from zero, in a way. Not, but sort of. Katie: I wouldn't say I'm starting from zero. Again, I've been pretty intentional with the types of partnerships that I've taken on over the last five-plus years, knowing that this was my end goal. Again, I wouldn't want anything on YOWCityStyle to impact any of my trust or credibility for real estate. It's been a long time coming. I have been able to help with social media in the real estate world over the last five or so years. I've always been just tiptoeing into it. Now it's official. Shaun: Do you have specific tips? You've been in the game for 10 years. Give me your top three or four, whatever you would like to share with the world. For REALTORS®, in the next year or so, what would be some specific Katie Hession tips for social media? Katie: I'd like to go back to our conversation about AI. With the rise of AI, it's really important that we stand out from AI. Embrace that imperfection to stay human. Being completely perfect online is not going to be your edge. I think that we need to think about those things that only you uniquely can do, like your personality, your opinions, your real-life experiences. How can you bring that into your content to show that you're a real person and not a robot? Again, like I said, one of my biggest strategies this whole time was just being myself. Obviously, you want to be open without really exposing yourself. I think about, would you walk into the lunchroom at work and talk about these things? Shaun: That's a good bar. Katie: I remember when I was going through the grueling licensing program here in Ontario, I was taking my audience along for the ride. Anytime I went in to write an exam, I told them I was going in to write it, and then I'd have to come out and tell them how I did. I was on a good roll, getting high 80s. Then one of my friends was like, "Katie, what if you don't pass one of your exams?" I was like, "That's the reality of what happens." It did happen. You need 75% to pass. I got 73%. I was pretty gutted, and I showed up online in my stories, and I told everyone. The amount of supporting messages that rolled in was incredible. At this point, I'd done a few exams, and my people were really cheering for me. Obviously, to share in my misery was wonderful, but then there was a lot of comments also that came in that just said, "It's so amazing that you are being so vulnerable and actually sharing not being perfect, because that's what makes us human.” That's what makes you relatable. Just shed the idea of being completely perfect online. Find that rawness or realness that is a professional level to share at the right times. Shaun: That, to me, sounds like, in the future, that's going to be a premium. Really cutting through the noise because there's so much noise online. So much noise, and some is nice and perfect, and some is broken. Even the broken stuff feels like you don't know anymore what's real and what isn't. Finding that personal voice, making sure you let that personality come through genuine. I think the thing about AI, it has always been a thing where AI is doing its absolute best to mimic. That's all it's doing is mimicking. If it's trying to "sell something," it will mimic what you think that you need to hear. But when someone trips up, or they show a little frustration, or they show a little real moment of authenticity, no AI can really mimic the messiness of being a human. Katie: I agree. Shaun: Cool. AI, staying real, staying raw. What else do you have? Katie: I think one of the biggest questions that people have when they have a platform or an account that they're trying to grow it. How do they grow it? It's one thing to master taking the perfect photo, making a great video. It's not just about posting it online. You hope that the algorithm picks it up. You hope that your audience engages with it so that it does get picked up more by the algorithm. I would say that community is probably your biggest growth hack. What I mean by that is that, look for ways to collaborate online. In a sense, what you're networking online with the goal of hoping to cross-pollinate your audience. You could do this by teaming up with another agent, featuring local businesses, anybody who works in the sphere of what you do that would make sense to collaborate with. With Instagram specifically, they do have the collaboration tool. I can post something and then invite somebody to be a collaborator, which then means that same piece of content goes out to both of our audiences. Either you can do it that way, or you're hoping to create something that's going to be shared by others, that then you're tapping into everybody else's audiences. Shaun: Collaboration sounds like a really good one, especially in real estate. Katie: For sure. Again, it's just another way to network. I would say, as a client of a REALTOR®, too, it shows that you're plugged into your city, you're a part of the community. That just feels a little bit more real-life too. Shaun: I feel like it's in everyone's best interest. It's a competitive game sometimes. Any business can be competitive, but more so in real estate, it feels like community is so important. If I'm a potential client looking for a REALTOR® and I see that happening, I'm just like, "They care about not just their own self-interest, but the community at large." That's very attractive to me. Katie: Agreed. It's the whole idea of collaboration over competition. Shaun: Right. That's great. Collaborating, finding your community. You also mentioned keeping it local. That's something that's really important. You're saying that will help you grow your number. Katie: Because really, it's just growing by making sure that other eyeballs get on that piece of content that you've created. If it resonates with another person that doesn't follow you already, then hopefully it does translate into a new follower. One thing I find that is often forgotten is the social side of social media. Obviously, people are posting, hoping with this end goal of making a sale, but we need to remember to be social. It's okay to drop the occasional salesy post, but make sure that you're also starting conversations with your community and joining them in. There's a lot of tools on Instagram too to get people to engage. You can have a poll, you can have a question box. Encourage people to DM you with a question just so that it's not just one-sided, you speaking at people all the time, and to respect it as a social space. Shaun: That's awesome. What else? Anything else? Katie: My third one is to treat your online presence or whatever content you're putting out as if it's a room full of people. Let's say you are invited to a dinner party. You're not going to walk in there and tell people immediately, what house you have for sale, or are you looking to buy a house, or here are all the stats, the data on the market right now. That's boring. It's not really how you start a conversation. Instead, look for ways to start a conversation that would build trust. Maybe you can still educate your audience on things that have to do with real estate, but just keeping in mind that you're not always selling. You can position yourself as an expert. Build rapport. Let your personality come through. Because that lets your audience get a sense of you before you're even starting to talk about business. Shaun: I love that. Even when I first started out, I remember somebody told me, he said, "When you're talking directly to camera, pretend like you're talking to someone you know, and you really are trying to connect with that person." In my world, it was a person. You're really sharing a story with that person instead of thinking about X number of people across, where you don't know a bunch of strangers. That's a little bit of a different feeling. The nerves are different when it comes to that. If I'm feeling like I'm connecting with one person, that really helps. I love that idea because the rules are different when you walk into a room full of people. Katie: For sure. I think what you're saying, it's that idea of the marketing avatar. In my mind, with my YOWCityStyle page, my marketing avatar, so the person that I'm speaking to, is Jennifer, who works for the government. She wants to know how to have a good time in Ottawa. Maybe wants some elephant inspiration, wants to know what the newest restaurant is to go to, where to get some skincare, that sort of thing. Again, knowing who your ideal customer is. Although I guess your customer base can be a lot broader when you're a REALTOR®. I think that it's going to help you be more human. I would actually recommend also that REALTORS® who have an existing page to look at what's in their feed right now and think, what is this conversation that's here? Just make sure it's not just a lot of data or just sold or listings that are coming up. You're allowed to sprinkle those in. Make sure that there's also a part that's showing you as a person and your personality. Shaun: That's actually interesting. We haven't really talked about that or put much of a focus on that, which is the actual page itself, the actual presence online. Everybody's probably going, "Wait, I've been doing this for a while." Maybe somebody out there has been frustrated it's not getting as much traction as they want. Perhaps it's something in their posts that they've already put out there. Maybe speak to that a little. Like you just said, when you're looking back at your post, you're going, "Maybe I'm doing this a little, like everything is a number or everything is just sold." What would you say are a way to, is it too late for people? Are they already like, oh, this is what I've already got. Now nobody's going to like me. Katie: They're not screwed. There's hope. There is hope. Shaun: Tell us how to realign. Katie: Again, I would do that audit of your page and look what's there because, sure, you might have some existing followers already, but to bring in a new follower, and again, I'm talking about Instagram specifically here, when you find a new page—let's say you were to collaborate with another agent and then you're like, "Oh, okay, this is cool. Let's see who they are. I'll click on them and look at their page. What is there?" That's another big first impression that you're giving. For me, I have my YOWCityStyle page that's established, and a lot of people know who I am over there. I've just launched my YOWCitySold page. I know that, with it being new, for me to attract followers over there, it was important for me to have some content that was there when I started talking about it. I haven't been too pushy about it just yet, but what I did was I went over to my YOWCityStyle page and looked at any past content that I'd created anytime I teamed up with a REALTOR®, anytime that I helped a property management company with a rental building, even furniture store. Anything that had to do with homes and real estate here in Ottawa, I went back and invited myself as a collaborator. That content then also showed up in my YOWCitySold page. When I launched it was like, oh, okay, we'll check this out. She's got all this content, and it's basically like a big history or resume of things that I've done so far. Shaun: That's great. That whole collaboration thing is really powerful, that tool. Katie: It is. Yes, it's quite cool. Shaun: When you're talking about real estate, what are the skills that you've taken from focusing on your personal brand, and how is that any different, or what are you bringing over to now that you're in the real estate side of things? Katie: There's a huge overlap. If you think of both industries, the idea of trust and relationships and reputation are so important. We're selling trust. We're not just selling a product. Again, think of that. Anything that I've been doing online with YOWCityStyle is I've been storytelling about Ottawa for years. Marketing homes in Ottawa really feels like a natural extension of everything that I've been doing so far. I've always kept a deeply local focus, so I know the neighborhood vibes, not just the stats on what's happening in the market. I'm pretty comfortable on camera. Again, I think my teaching experience has come into play quite a bit. I love explaining things clearly. I think when you become a REALTOR®, any entrepreneur-type skills are really important. I've been able to show up consistently on my own, a lot of self-discipline, any of those entrepreneurial skills that also a REALTOR® would need. Really, at the end of the day, both jobs are relationship businesses. You've got to think about how you can maintain that trust over time. Shaun: You obviously are comfortable in front of the camera. I feel very comfortable in front of the camera, but there's people out there who just don't like the camera. They just don't like putting themselves out there and talking to something that is not a friend or family member or a pet. What about those people? They still have to put themselves out there. I'm talking specifically real estate agents. What do you say to those people who maybe aren't as driven to, and in fact, maybe fearful of it all? How do you help them along? Katie: If it makes anybody feel better, I did not feel comfortable at first. When Instagram first started, it was photo-based. Taking a photo, that's fine. It's just one little split second in time. When video was introduced, I definitely stumbled over my words, and I felt really awkward. It came with practice. Really, I think a quote that's been really resonating with me lately with starting a new career is that you don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great. If you're feeling paralyzed that you just can't do it, just try. Video is obviously a lot more, I guess, harder on the nerves than taking a photo. You could look at maybe taking photos that at least shows your face, and then using some script on the screen to get your message communicated. If you're worried about choking up over your words, there are apps to be able to hit like a—what is it called when you're looking at the script? Shaun: Oh, your teleprompter app. Katie: There's a teleprompter app. That might make-- Shaun: You just read. Katie: Yes, you just read, and it might make you feel better. I would say finding another agent or somebody who has the skills, or maybe just makes you feel comfortable, and get some practice. Again, it's not something you have to do. Again, it is very helpful. Shaun: I would say, too, I know in my experience, stand-up comedy was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. I look back now at myself, anything I've ever done back in the day, and I was terrible. Still, I can't watch myself. Like you said, the more you do it, the practice that you give it, you feel vulnerable and insecure about it at first. I think it was because of the expectation that we put upon ourselves. If I'm somebody starting out in the social media game, I might say it's like you have this perceived idea as to what you're supposed to be. In truth, I think the more honest and real you are with who you are and what your feeling is about something, and you're not trying to pretend to be something that you think you're supposed to be, and I'm talking to the people who feel the most closed off to it all, I think it's the opening, that little tiny break of being closed off. Who you are is probably what people are going to respond most to, as opposed to somebody who thinks they know what it is, and they're putting themselves out there in a way where it's like, no, I want somebody who is so real and so honest, even when the imperfections are coming through. I think that's really important. I love your piece of advice. That saying makes a lot of sense. You got to start to be great. Katie: It will come with time. Again, I think we are inundated with these, like there's so many real estate TV shows right now, and these people are really good on camera. Is it that relatable? Is that relatable to the clients that you're looking after or seeking? Shaun: Exactly. It's an ever-changing game. There's so much evolution happening in this space, and I want to encourage everybody to make sure you go follow Katie. Tell us all your socials, Katie, before we wrap this up. Katie: YOWCitySold, the Ottawa airport code, Y-O-W, is my real estate page, and then YOWCityStyle is more my lifestyle, living in Ottawa. I recently did a trip to Prince Edward Island, which was really fun.  Shaun: I saw that on your social media. It looked awesome. Katie: I ate a lot of seafood. Both channels are there, and sometimes you'll see the same content on both pages, if it relates to both. That's where you can find me. Shaun: That's great. Listen, Katie Hession, follow her on all of her socials. Thank you so much for joining us on REAL TIME. I hope it was enjoyable for you as it was for me. Katie: It was an absolute honour. Thank you so much for having me. Shaun: Thanks. There you have it, guys. Leaning into social media is a great way to connect with potential clients and grow our personal brands, but also our professional brands. I feel like, after my chat with Katie, it's obvious there's a connection between all of them, whether you have your own individual brand, you have a social brand that's focused on lifestyle, but then that professional brand, you're still utilizing the same skills, you're utilizing the same philosophy. From what I'm taking, from what Katie's talking about, authenticity seems to be the number one most important thing. I took a lot from that, from her, and I'm very thankful for Katie Hession for joining us. Again, you can follow Katie Hession on YOWCityStyle and also now, YOWCitySold. Please follow her. If you liked this episode, make sure you like or subscribe to wherever you listen to your favourite podcasts. Of course, REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and production brought to you by Alphabet® Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. Thanks so much for joining us today on REAL TIME. We'll see you again. Peace.

Did you know that nearly 90% of Canadians under 30 want to own a home? Or that 61% of Canadians believe the homes being built today don’t meet the needs of Canadian households? While homeownership remains an important milestone, what it looks like and how Canadians think about it is changing. David Coletto, CEO and founder of Abacus Data, joins this episode of REAL TIME to discuss recent findings in research conducted with the Canadian Real Estate Association, focusing on how Canadians view homeownership, and how “good data drives good decisions” when it comes to fair housing policy in Canada. Transcript

Being able to identify upcoming trends is an important skill in any business. It allows you to plan, strategize, and position yourself at the front of the pack. Sébastien Fauteux, Creative Director at Urban Barn, has spent nearly 30 years anticipating and capitalizing on design trends inside Canadians’ homes—and now he’s here to share those insights with Canadian REALTORS®. On this episode of the REAL TIME podcast, Sébastien gives us his perspective on identifying trends, when to take risks, and some practical takeaways on how to make a lasting first impression. Transcript

For months, Canadians have had their elbows up, showing their commitment to choosing local, supporting homegrown business, and reinforcing the value of national unity. This renewed sense of economic patriotism has shaped our consumer habits and helped redefine what it means to be resilient during times of change. Arlene Dickinson, a businesswoman, investor, author, and television personality on CBC’s Dragons’ Den, is outspoken about her support of Canada during the current political climate. She joins this episode of REAL TIME to share what patriotism means to her, how it affects the economy, and how we can continue to strengthen Canada as a country and business partner. Transcript

The way we build homes hasn’t changed much in decades—and that’s an issue. Gaetan Royer, CEO of Massive Canada, joins this episode of the REAL TIME podcast to explain how new technologies, such as pre-fab modular housing, can help address  Canada’s housing crisis by improving the efficiency of home building. From how it saves builders and homebuyers money, to the benefits to the environment, communities, and jobs, host Shaun Majumder gets the low-down on everything pre-fab housing. Transcript

REALTORS® often operate with a high-performance mindset, much like professional athletes. It’s a powerful tool in business, but it can also be a slippery slope to burnout. Psychotherapist Jhanelle Peters, former mental health clinician for the Toronto Raptors, joins REAL TIME to explore the pressures of entrepreneurial careers like real estate. Listen in to learn about the gradual building of burnout and how to spot it early, the importance of reframing “work-life balance,” how integrating joy and recovery into your daily routine fuels both your career and your well-being. Transcript

The beautiful thing about real estate is there are many avenues to success and even more  ways to approach it. Bringing over skills from other industries can be a major benefit for people making a career transition into becoming a REALTOR®. Just ask Ryan Elliott and Katharina Lenz, two REALTORS® who have experienced the professional and personal benefits of making the switch from previous careers into real estate. They share the motivation behind their move, the skills they were able to transfer into their new careers, and why the decision is one they’re proud of today. Transcript Shaun Majumder: You didn't realize how much blood, sweat, and tears you had to put into it. Ryan Elliott: I had no idea. Katharina Lenz: I've been always interested in homes, how homes are built. Ryan: Put your hard hat on, Ronnie. Shaun: Hard hat, Ronnie. I told you. Shaun: Everyone's path to becoming a REALTOR® is unique. It's different. There is no one way to becoming a REALTOR®, but for those who choose to become a REALTOR®, they bring with them so many different skill sets, so many different experiences. To make that transition from the old life to the new life is amazing to see. Today, we're so excited to talk to two REALTORS® who left their old life behind and are now thriving in what they do as productive REALTORS®. They're here to tell us their story. I'm so excited to have on the show Ryan Elliott and Katharina Lenz. Welcome to REAL TIME. You found your calling, guys. You are now REALTORS® and have been for a little bit, but you've not always been REALTORS®, and here we are. This is so exciting to talk about. You guys have not been REALTORS® your whole lives, then you jumped into this career a little bit later. As a lot of us do, we find new paths and new journeys. I'm really curious about why you guys chose becoming a REALTOR® as your next path in life. Also, tell me a bit about who you are, where you come from, and what it was that drew you to wanting to become a REALTOR®. Let's start with Katharina. Sorry if I put on the accent because- Katharina: Oh, that's perfect. Shaun: -I just love the name. Katharina. Katharina: That's perfect. Shaun: I love it. Katharina: My name is Katharina. Originally from Colombia, but been in Canada for 10 years. Moved to New Brunswick four years ago and decided to pursue the real estate career. I've always worked in homes. Also, I was a cabinetmaker and I was an interior designer before. It's a three-year apprenticeship in Germany, which I did before coming to Canada. Shaun: Where did you come to in Canada? Katharina: I started out in Calgary, but then moved to Victoria, BC. That's where I studied interior design and worked for a little while there. Until COVID hit, and then the house prices, of course, so I decided to move over to the Atlantic, just across Canada, drive for two weeks. Shaun: Wait, you said you drive for two weeks? Katharina: Yes. I have a bulldog. Shaun: How long ago was this? Katharina: Four years ago. It was during the pandemic. It was a fun drive. Shaun: Yes, I bet. I've been there. I did that myself. Then you came to New Brunswick, of all places. Amazing province. Tell me about that transition. Katharina: When I arrived here, I decided to pursue the real estate career. Obviously, it was pandemic, so it was a very hard transition, but I felt like I wanted to help families settle. For me, coming here alone, trying to get into the system, find any connections, it was really hard, so I wanted to be that person for the families here. They could have that one point where they could find support and help to settle down. Shaun: That's interesting. You had your own experience to draw from. Was it an easy transition for you to get settled in New Brunswick? Katharina: It was mostly, I think, hard because of the pandemic, so it was hard to actually go out and socialize. Once everything started opening up, it was a little bit more easier to actually connect with people. You could see the urge of people wanting to connect in person, wanting to meet up, wanting to talk, and finally come back to a normal life. Shaun: What was it about real estate specifically that drew you to wanting to become a REALTOR®? Katharina: I wanted to go into real estate when I was in BC. Since I decided to move, it didn't make sense to pursue it there because in every province, it's different. I've been always interested in homes, how homes are built, how families actually make a house a home. That's what drew me to start real estate. Shaun: Did you find a lot of like-minded people when you got to New Brunswick? Katharina: Actually, a few. Yes. My REALTOR®, which I used when I bought my property here, I started out with her. I joined her team. That helped me a little bit to start with the connections and actually start getting settled here. Shaun: That's such a great Canadian story, too. It sounds like a Tim Hortons commercial, I’m not gonna lie to you. Girl leaves Colombia, goes to Germany, little woodworker, gets her skillset, goes to Victoria, starts becoming an interior designer, pandemic hits. Give me a double-double, and then she ends up in New Brunswick and becomes a REALTOR®. That's amazing. It sounds exactly like a perfect commercial. Now, Ryan Elliott, on the other hand, he was already out here. Ryan, I'm going to use the accent of your people to say your name. Ryan. Ryan. He's from Newfoundland. Ryan: Exactly that. I've had family members, they just call me Ryan. I'm originally from the Northern Peninsula of the province, actually, in Bear Cove, if you know where that is. Shaun: I do. Ryan: Then moved to Mount Pearl. I always say that's where I made my mistakes. Grew up in Mount Pearl, and now I live in St. John's. Prior to that, I worked occupational health and safety. Shaun: What does one do in occupational health and safety? I hear those terms all the time, but I never quite understood what an occupational health and safety worker does. Tell us about that. Ryan: With that role, you are responsible for, I guess, managing a work site for safety, health parameters, environment as well. Just the overall management for the workers to make sure that they get home safe at the end of the day. I did that for 10 years. Shaun: Would you be kind of like, "Steve, glasses. Steve, I told you about the glasses." Ryan: It was exactly like that. Exactly like that. Shaun: Oh, Steve, too. Ryan: Put your hard hat on, Ronnie. Shaun: Hard hat, Ronnie. I told you. Oh, very good. You were in a bit of an authoritative kind of place, but what were the skills that you had to do during that time? Were you in an office? Were you on the site a lot, dealing with people? How was that? Ryan: From, I guess, to the end of that career, I started out in a work site. First was offshore. From there, I went to Western Canada, worked in the oil sands, and that was all site work. A little bit of office administration as well. Then from there, I came back to the province, worked with our utility company here. Again, that was, I guess, an equal share between site and office. You play that management role, so you're always dealing with people, you're always communicating, and also, how to have those hard conversations is really important. Shaun: Like, "Steve, put on your helmet." You did 10 years of that. Katharina, you did multiple things, and then the pandemic hit. It sounds like the pandemic was somewhat of a motivator for change. I mean, it was for millions of people across the planet. Did that have something to do with this new realization that maybe becoming a REALTOR® is something that you would like to pursue? What were the things that triggered? What was the draw to becoming a REALTOR®, Ryan? Ryan: For me, for the position that I was in at the time, it was 8:00 to 4:00. My daughter was two years old, and she was going to bed at 6:00. I was like, I got nothing else to do. I'm a little bored with my time. I went and picked up, at the time, two flips. One was a new build, one was an older home. When they were just about complete, I called my agent at the time and said, "Hey, I got these two projects. They're almost complete and ready for sale." He came back and said, "Well, I'm in Florida. I'm no longer an agent there." I could do this myself. I went and got my license, and right out of the gate in 2020, I did have two new listings. That helped. Shaun: Did you have any inkling before of wanting to become a REALTOR®? Ryan: It was always something on my mind. Again, where I worked away was something that I really couldn't do and fulfill. I think a lot of that comes back to ignorance at the time, because you look at it and you think, "Okay. Well, you're just showing houses, your phone's going to ring," but that's not the case at all. Now that I'm in this and I'm looking at all the hats that I have to wear, it's like, "Oh, wow. You can't have this job." Shaun: No. I want to come back to expectations in a little bit, but I'm really fascinated, honestly, about what it was that drew you to it, and then why four years later or five years later, you guys are now thriving, you're still doing it. Katharina, you had mentioned something that was really interesting. I assume that in Victoria, you were obviously very social, and you were drawing people together, and you were throwing big parties. I assume you were very social back in Victoria, so that when you came to New Brunswick, you just wanted to continue that. Is that safe to say? Katharina: No, I wasn't at all. I was an introvert. Shaun: Really? Katharina: Yes. I didn't have a lot of friends. I just went to work and then went back home, and that was it for me. Shaun: That's in Victoria? Katharina: Yes. Shaun: That doesn't sound like somebody who would be like, "I need to get out and be a REALTOR® and sell, sell, sell and buy, buy, buy." Katharina: No, nothing at all. That was one of the hardest parts, I guess, to get out of my shell and try to explore that part. That helped me a lot here with that feeling of actually wanting to help families and that urge of how I felt during the pandemic, being here alone, not having my family. Wanting to help those families build something for them, that helped me to actually get out and start pursuing that. Shaun: Katharina, I find that so interesting, this idea of bringing families together, making sure that they feel-- are you referring to new Canadians? Are you talking about people who already live there? Both? Where specifically did you feel you brought value in your community? What town is it you're in, by the way? Katharina: I'm in Moncton. Moncton, New Brunswick. Shaun: Moncton. Love Moncton. Katharina: Here, basically, my main clientele is Latin people because I can connect with them mostly because of the language, obviously. I come from Colombia. I know how the process is. There's no REALTORS® there. You could just basically knock on the door and be like, "I want to buy the house." "Okay. Here it is," kind of thing. For them to learn the process here-- Shaun: Wait. I want to hear that story again. Buying a house there, what's the transaction like? Katharina: You don't have any REALTORS®. Shaun: What happens? Katharina: If you hear from a neighbor that someone is selling, you basically go and knock on the door, go and look at the house. If you like it, you make the bank transaction, get the papers, and that's it. Shaun: Then you just do it that way, right? Katharina: Yes. Shaun: That's incredible. Wow. So highly regulated. Katharina: Yes. Totally. Shaun: Do you find you're almost that matriarchal, like, "I'll take care of you." Katharina: Yes. It feels like I'm the connector basically for everyone. Almost every Latino here, they know me. They know that I do community events, just to get the families together to help settle them and everything. I'm that connector when people arrive. Obviously, they start trusting me, and they go through the purchase or sale of their home. Shaun: Do you feel like, because of now becoming a REALTOR®, you have opened up more? Tell me about that. Katharina: Oh, my goodness. Yes. I'm a social butterfly now. I'm barely home. Shaun: Are you happy? Katharina: Yes, I am. Yes. Shaun: I love it. I love it. Now, Ryan, what would you say was the aha moment that finally said, "I've got to take the leap." Was it just that exchange that you had where you were like, "Hey, you know what? I could probably do this myself. I come from a world where I had to manage a lot. My brain works that way." What were the aha moments that said, "Oh, yes, let's do this." Ryan: For me, a lot of it comes down to the connection that I have with people and the dynamics that we have in our day. No day is ever the same, no client is the same. I really enjoy that piece. Shaun: It's certainly not boring. Ryan: No, not at all. I'm high energy, so I'm like, "Go, go, go." I thrive on that piece. I got two kids now, so you don't have a flexible schedule. You're able to work with your schedule. My wife helps a lot and she's able to back me so that if I have a viewing in the weekend, then I might have a Tuesday afternoon that I'll take with the kids. Shaun: What would you say, Katharina, your career as a REALTOR® offers you that your previous careers do not? Katharina: Like Ryan said, the flexibility to actually have your own schedule and pursue other things at the same time. That's the biggest problem. Shaun: Are you still involved in using your other skill sets in terms of whether it be cabinet making or interior design? Katharina: Cabinet making, I do mostly as a hobby now, but I still work on some design jobs back from Victoria. I do all the drawings and everything from here. I'm starting to get settled with that here as well. A lot of my clients are coming back to me now, knowing that I have that background to help them with their homes. Shaun: How sweet. That's a beautiful pipeline you've got right there where you're like, "Hey, let me sell you this home." Then they buy it. Then you're like, "Hey, this room could use some work." Katharina: Yes, one-stop shop. Shaun: That's amazing. Oh, my gosh. I love it. Ryan, what about that? In terms of the skills that you had that you were using back then, what do you say is the highest volume of things that you find yourself utilizing those skills, going from that old job into this new career? Ryan: One big piece that I take from that would be the communication, the organization. One thing that was really important in the safety field was standard operating procedures. We would use that for-- if a worker had to work on a piece of equipment, then we would have an outlined itemized checklist on how to do that safely. Now, with real estate, and I've really enjoyed building a team the last year, we're able to take any document now and create a standard operating procedure for any new agents or administrative staff to onboard a new client, whether it's a buyer, or a seller, or how we want to market our properties. It really helps with the streamlining and organization. Not just listing a property, but more so launching it, and really giving that client experience. Shaun: Wow. You hit the ground running, really. That was just an automatic plug and play, almost for the organizational piece, the operations. That's stuff that my brain just does not do, so kudos to you for having that skillset. Did you have to learn that? From the previous to now, which one is more exciting for you? Ryan: I really like this piece. It's something that I didn't really know or strive to do when I got into business, but I like building a team and having good people around you, and creating a good environment. When I got into business, no, I didn't know what I was doing. It was COVID, and nobody could talk to anybody at that time. We didn't know how to handle it. Shaun: You both started. Did you guys realize, you guys started when everything in the world-- It was the apocalypse. You started during the apocalypse. You said, "Oh, I need a change." That must have made you extra resilient to be able to jump into something like that at that time. Do you feel it helped or slowed you down a little bit? Katharina: I think for myself, it slowed me down a little bit, because I just moved here. I didn't know anyone. To start out to get all the connections and networking and everything was really hard because of COVID. I think it slowed me down a little bit. Shaun: How about you, Ryan? In terms of the COVID piece, did that slow you down, did that accelerate, did that give you opportunity? Ryan: I think it helped me greatly, because at the time, I was still 50-50 with my old job, and now becoming a REALTOR®, and working from home, and having a little bit of flexibility allowed me to plug the hours for calling friends and saying, "Hey, I'm a real estate agent now." Calling my aunt and uncle and saying, "I don't know if any of your friends are looking to sell, but I'm a real estate agent now." I think without that work-from-home time, or without that flexibility, I don't really feel I would have been able to hit the ground running. Shaun: That makes sense. Same thing with being a parent. Ryan: Very much. Shaun: In a big way, right? Being forced to be home and being forced to be there, which is a great thing, but I'm sure that some people who have jobs and lives that take them away from the home, that's always something that you may look back on and go, "Oh, I wish I had that time back." Thanks to COVID, as a dad myself, I feel like that was really beneficial. Looking back now, what was your expectation going in, and how have they either come up short or they've exceeded your expectations? How does it look now versus what you thought it was going to be? What were some surprises? Katharina: Surprises? Oh, my goodness. Probably, the biggest is social media, because being an introvert, I wasn't on any social media. I wasn't on it. I didn't want to know anything about it, but now, I actually had to put out myself in front of the camera and do all of this. That was the biggest for me. Shaun: Was it a challenge? Katharina: Oh, my goodness, yes. My mentor at that time, it took her over a year telling me every day, "Kat. You'll have to get in front of the camera. You'll have to get in front of the camera." Shaun: I think Ryan and I both would look at you and say, "Oh, there's no indication that it was challenging for you. You're amazing on camera, and it's great." I love that red. Katharina: Thank you. Shaun: Powerful. Very powerful. Going back to that a little bit, you obviously personally didn't have a lot of social media, so when you were told that it's probably in your best interest to generate business by increasing your social media presence, was it more about personal social media or was it just strictly about the business then, and that was what propelled you to having more presence online? Katharina: It was mostly business, but I wanted to be myself. I wanted to be natural. I didn't want to be a fake person. People assume when they see a REALTOR®, "Oh, you're like selling sunset. Just opening doors and that's it. Looking pretty and having a nice car, and that's it." I wanted to be myself, so I actually show a lot of personal stuff on my social media, and that's what people like about me. Shaun: That's great. That's great. Were you advised to do that, or was that just your own personal choice? You felt it was important, a part of your value system? Katharina: I think it would be best to show how you actually are, because if you show yourself different on social media and then the person you're actually working with after in person, they realize you're not that person that you are on social media, then it goes sideways. Shaun: Yes. That's right, because there's a lot of people watching this now, perhaps who are thinking, "Maybe I want to jump into real estate. Maybe I want to become a REALTOR®." That's a good tip. That's a hot tip from Katharina right there. Be yourself. Katharina: Yes. Shaun: Right? Katharina: Always. Shaun: Ryan, I guess for you, what was the biggest surprise in terms of your expectation before, what it was going to be like, and then what the reality of it all actually was? Ryan: Yes, absolutely. From the outside, I looked at it and said, "Okay, well, all these agents around town, their phone is just going to ring and they're just sitting around waiting, doing what they want, and business is going to come." Couldn't be more wrong. As soon as I got into this and I started recognizing the time and the hats that you have to wear and the social media piece, and now you got to go to YouTube and make an 18-minute-long video about how to move to Paradise. That's the sort of stuff that you don't think about when you're looking at just selling houses, but it all plays a part in being that local authority that comes back to the personal brand, that people watch and say, "Well, I want to work with Shaun. I want to work with Katharina. I want to work with Ryan." That's something that I was ignorant to. Shaun: Right. You didn't realize how much blood, sweat, and tears you had to put into it. Ryan: Had no idea. No idea. Shaun: Wow. Just for people watching, Ryan wasn't being silly or cheeky when he said move to Paradise. Expect there's an actual town. I don't think people realize there's a place called Paradise in Newfoundland. You weren't just being like, "Newfoundland is the best place to live. It's basically paradise." No, there's a town called Paradise, and it's terrible, by the way. It's not. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. It's a great little place. It's beautiful. That's amazing. Your expectation, you had to catch up. You had to be like, "Oh, snap. This is a lot more." Specifically, you said the social media piece was something, the time you had to spend with regards to what else on the ground, boots on the ground. What were the other skills that you didn't realize you had to activate? Ryan: Transaction management is one that plays a part within the whole organizational skills. Communication is a big piece, but it's that lead generation. You're constantly thinking of social posts. You're constantly thinking of daily mailers. You're constantly thinking of ways to give back to the community. When I got into this, actually, I got a real estate coach. One thing that helped me greatly was I was able to remove that trial-and-error piece. Luckily, I did get paired with a fantastic coach from the Tom Ferry coaching system, and his name was Doug Hannan. He had family here, so he knew the market here. He knew where Newfoundland was, for one, which Shaun, you can relate. If you tell people you're from Newfoundland, they're like, "Where's that, though?" Shaun: "Oh, I've been to Halifax. I know Newfoundland. I've been to Halifax." Oh. Ryan: I've been to Halifax. I found that that helped me greatly with kind of hit the ground running and just knowing what to do and how to play and put all these puzzle pieces together. Shaun: Did Doug-- was the name Doug? Ryan: Doug, yes. Shaun: Was he a REALTOR® in Newfoundland as well? Ryan: He had family in Newfoundland. He was in Toronto, actually. He's from Toronto, but he was a REALTOR® there. He ran a brokerage. He is a 30-year season vet. His administrator was from Bell Island, and he used to travel here regularly, so that helped a lot when he was coaching and guiding me. Shaun: That's interesting because having somebody to coach you who knows Newfoundland real estate, that's a blessing, knows the geography, knows the place. Katharina, in terms of having an expectation of what Moncton was like, specifically talk about that market because going from Victoria, the West to the East is so drastically different. How long did it take you to get a real sense of what Moncton specifically was like? You service Moncton proper? Katharina: Yes, right in the Moncton area. Shaun: What was that like, because Ryan knew what his hometown was like, but you had to come into a brand-new market. Katharina: Yes. It was really hard, and it's still hard to connect here with the locals. I hear that from all of the families that I serve as well, that it's really hard to connect with all the families because it's such a small town still. They're really tied together. They know everyone. I live a little bit outside of Moncton, half an hour out in Salisbury. I started door-knocking there. I just wanted to give it a try, and everyone would say, "Well, yes, my kid went with this REALTOR® to school, so we know her," and that was like every second door. They knew this REALTOR®, so I'm like, "Yes, I don't have any chance." It was really hard. Shaun: If you're in Moncton, she's the go-to. If you're in Paradise-- Katharina: It's Ryan. Shaun: Ryan doesn't live there, but St. John's, go to Ryan. I love this because so many people have been through so many transitions. People aren't necessarily wake up and they say, "This is exactly what I'm going to do and this is the career that I'm going to have." That challenge of transitioning from an old career, and probably, you did very well, right, Ryan? You're working out West, you're a Newfoundlander working in Fort Mac. I mean, come on, buddy, that is good money out there, and it's just handed to you. You're working obviously, but then you come home, now you've got to do it yourself. Has it unlocked the entrepreneurial spirit in you? Ryan: Very much. I went to school for four years, and then I went West. I went through that phase of being away from my family to make the big dollar. Then, when I got into this, and you said it, it unlocks that entrepreneurial spirit. It creates that business fire where you look at the opportunities and you say, "Okay. Well, these connections that I'm having daily, what else can I do with this?" Whether that's looking into maybe investing into a development as a subdivision or just going down the road of building houses. Definitely, every day, it's always something new, where you're like, "Okay. Well, through real estate, what else can I build on?" There are so many opportunities there. Shaun: It's not just about buying and selling. It sounds like, especially Katharina, what you've done, you've tapped into community, which I think is really powerful, too. Tell me about your involvement in the community now. Outside of MLS listings and buying and selling, how have you now immersed yourself in the community? You're adding not only just your expertise now as a REALTOR®, but you're also helping grow and cultivate connections in a community. Tell me a bit about that. What are your skill sets outside of real estate- Katharina: Oh, goodness. Shaun: -that you now bring. Katharina: I volunteer for some of the newcomer associations here. I host community events for my Latin people. I have a Colombian dance group, which we participate in events. Shaun: What's that music specific- Katharina: Cumbia. Shaun: -to Colombia? Cumbia. Oh, my gosh. Ryan, do you know Cumbia? Ryan: No. Shaun: It's like a Newfoundland jig with a lot more hips. Look up Cumbia. It's the best. Wait, you said host community events. What would that be? What does that look like? Katharina: I do everything, to be honest. I do Latin parties. I throw community events for families, where the kids can go and do something. I collaborate with a lot of associations as well that do Zumba classes, kids painting stuff, a lot of different things for the community, so that they can actually settle and find their connections. Shaun: Oh, yes. Now, again, I do want to touch on that one more time. If you have any specific stories of-- Tell me a bit about a family that you helped, who came from wherever in Latin America. Is there a Canadian story there where they've come from away, they're there now in New Brunswick, they don't know exactly what the next steps are. Is there anybody specifically that you recall really watching how much of an influence you had? Not to take about you, but you're not just helping people locally buy houses. You also have that layer of helping people transition from wherever they come from into Canada, and then find a place to live in Moncton. Katharina: Let's see. There was one family, a couple, two kids, helped them buy the house. They just starting settle-- Shaun: Where were they from? Katharina: Colombia. Shaun: They came specifically from Colombia? Katharina: Yes. I helped them settle and everything. Her and her daughter were really into dance. They're now in my Colombian dance group. Her daughter become basically almost like my little sister. That's really close to me. I saw how they evolved from being here alone to what they've grown to. They started their own business now and everything. Shaun: Oh, tell me more about that. What was the business? Katharina: They're doing decoration for events. Shaun: Oh, cool. Party design. Katharina: Yes. The balloon stuff, the arches, the weddings, all of that. I can refer them to a lot of events that I host as well. We help each other. Shaun: That's great. You helped them find a home? Katharina: Yes. Shaun: They found a house and they moved in. How long ago was this? Katharina: That was almost a year ago. Shaun: Awesome. How are they doing? Katharina: They're awesome. They love it. Shaun: They're happy. They love it. Katharina: Yes. Her mom is visiting here now. They're happy, enjoying it. Shaun: That's awesome. What about you, Ryan? Specifically, what was your first actual sell or buy? What was your first kind of you're like, "I did it. I can actually do this." Ryan: I think I had one there a couple of years ago where it was a first-time buyer. She was older. It was a little bit later in life for her. The market here has been very busy. It's been very active, so it's very tough to get somebody under contract, and it takes a lot of offers, really. When we-- Shaun: Now, when you say it was busy, it's active, explain what that looks like in St. John's. Are you talking St. John's specifically? Ryan: Yes. St. John's proper right now for this exact story, for all of the area, really. Right now, we have lower inventory than we've ever had, and we likely have more demand than we've ever had. When you're writing on a offer on a house, it's going to take either a very strong offer to persuade the seller, or it's going to take a few offers before you find the right one where you're comfortable enough to offer what it's going to take to get that property. This one, this particular client, we probably wrote about 10 offers, and we had to get really creative when we finally got her under contract. When it happened, it was still such a feel-good moment because I lost my-- I'm not going to say much of this, but I lost my mother a couple of years ago. Then, just the connection I had with this woman, you could tell that she was such a good mom. That was awesome. Shaun: That's amazing. Oh, my gosh. That's such an interesting thing. We usually think of people who are, "I'm going to buy a house." A young couple, a young professional, first house, but this is somebody who is a mom. Had how many kids? Ryan: She had two kids. She was almost 70 when she bought her first house. Shaun: Amazing. What a feeling. Ryan: Yes, it was absolutely incredible. Shaun: Wow. Ryan: Just to get that across the finish line. Shaun: Obviously, young family comes from Colombia, they get integrated into Moncton, have a business. The other end of the spectrum with this lady, a mom, who you had a special connection with, and buys her first house later in life. Was it her dream to own a house? Ryan: It was. She wanted to do this before it was too late- Shaun: Wow. Ryan: -so that she had something to leave her kids. Shaun: Oh, that is gorgeous. It's very satisfying. It's very gratifying. What you guys do is more than just buy and sell, it sounds like. I think that's important for people who are watching, who are thinking about it, or if there's REALTORS® who are watching, that they can obviously attest to this very thing. Those are great stories, guys. I love that so much. Here we are. We're at the end of our chat, but before we go, I'd like each of you to tell me where you see yourself, what you'd like to see yourself doing in five years from now. What is your future as a person who helps people find homes and an agent in Newfoundland, where do you guys see yourselves? What would be the ultimate dream for you both? Katharina? Katharina: For me, I'd love to grow my team to be able to serve my community a little bit better. Getting better in French as well. I started French classes now, so I'm trying to grow my community and not only serve Latin people. Shaun: Le formidable. Katharina: Oui, oui. That's all I have for now, but yes, that's mostly it. I want to grow my team, that I can serve my community better for sure. Shaun: How's that going? How do you go about building that team? Is it because you need more people from Latin America to become REALTORS®, to become home finders? Katharina: Yes. I have a few either past clients or friends that are interested in getting into real estate now, some are getting into it. I have a few agents that want to change brokerage right now, so I'm getting them into-- Which are not Canadian either. It's getting a multicultural team together to help all the newcomers settle. Shaun: Oh, sweet. Love it. Love it. What about you, Ryan? Ryan: Yes. Very much similar. Definitely continue to build out, grow a team so that we can help service more, but I also want to get more involved with the community, specifically within the sporting world. Sponsor more teams, sponsor more events. Shaun: Oh, I see. Ryan: Sponsor more gear. If it's needed for hockey or baseball, anything like that. Shaun: You have a personal passion for local recreation and sport. Ryan: Big time. I grew up playing hockey here in Mount Pearl. I got a 4-year-old son now that's starting to get into it. I'm just thriving on that, and I'd like to be able to do more. Shaun: Oh, that's awesome. Support your community. Ryan: Big time. Shaun: Great. Guys, this has been amazing to hear your stories as REALTORS®. This is REAL TIME. We talk to REALTORS®. It's the podcast for REALTORS®, but I feel like hearing your story is so insightful because we think, "Oh, how do people become REALTORS®? What's that like? What's their before life? What's their new life?" Thank you so much for sharing your stories. It's been insightful for me as well. If you're ever in Halifax and you want to have a ball hockey game, Ryan, once you come and sponsor it. Then afterwards, we'll go and eat delicious Latin food at the Kinsmen Club after. Shaun: I'm just spitballing here, guys. I'm just spitballing, bringing it all together. Ryan: Yes, that's a good idea. Katharina: Yes, I'm in. Shaun: Who's in? Katharina: I'm in. Ryan: I'm in. Katharina: You got me on food. Shaun: Yes. Yum, yum, yum. Ryan, look up Cumbia. You're going to see- Ryan: Cumbia. Shaun: -buddy. The best music ever. Thank you, both. Thank you, both. Good luck with everything, and we'll see you again. I'm sure. Katharina: Thank you so much. Ryan: Thank you. Shaun: Bye, guys. What a great chat. I love that. Thanks to Ryan and Katharina for telling us their stories. It was so amazing to see. Bringing their life skills, bringing everything that they love about their communities, and now forging a path of their own. It's changing not only their own lives, but the people around them. What a great chat. Guys, thank you so much for joining me today. If you like this episode, make sure you get out there, find your favorite podcast platform. Give us a like, give us a review, share with everybody you know. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. Production courtesy of Alphabet Creative. Thanks so much, guys. We'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

Real estate is an inherently human-forward business. The value of personal connections and community will never go away. But the introduction of artificial intelligence (AI) gives REALTORS® tools to grow their business and save time in some areas so they can invest in others.  Sean Provencher, a REALTOR®, founder of Endgame Coaching, and supporter of incorporating AI into everyday business, joins this episode of the REAL TIME podcast to share his experience on how AI has helped his business thrive, strategies he uses, and how REALTORS® can embrace this emerging technology in a responsible way.  Transcript

Don’t expect Krista Gionet to micromanage. That’s not going to happen. The CEO of the Windsor-Essex County Association of REALTORS®, and this year's recipient of CREA’s Association Executive Network (AEN) Award of Excellence, prides herself on putting people in positions to succeed.  Join host Shaun Majumder in conversation with Krista, where she shares what makes a good leader, the role of associations in their respective communities, and why she’s adamant about being a voice for REALTORS®.  The 2025 AEN Award of Excellence is sponsored by REAL TIME. Transcript

Home inspections might be optional, but the peace of mind they can bring by saving both buyers and sellers from unexpected expenses and headaches down the line makes them worth doing. As REALTORS®, you know there are times when inspections might slow the process or seem less-than-necessary at first glance, so, it’s important to know what red flags to look for and be able to advise your clients about bringing in an inspector.  On the latest episode of the REAL TIME podcast, certified home inspector Victoria Ballantine joins host Shaun Majumder to reinforce the value of a home inspection not only when you’re buying or selling, but even before you list a home. Why? Well, you’ll have to listen to find out.  Transcript

The demand for greener homes and communities is growing in Canada, but there are still a lot of questions about how we can embrace sustainability in real estate at the personal, professional, and industrial levels.  Mark Holland, principal at Westplan Consulting Group and a professor at Vancouver Island University, shares insights on how REALTORS® can become leaders in real estate’s green future, the impacts of climate change within our communities, sustainable home building practices, and sustainable innovations on the horizon.  Want to learn more? CREA’S Canadian Certified Green Representative (CCGR) certification is now available for REALTORS®. Transcript

The brand you build as a REALTOR® is what sets you apart, it’s also helpful to demonstrate your value to both clients and peers. So how do you build a brand that exudes authenticity?  On this episode of the REAL TIME podcast, three members of the REALTOR® community, Greg Hamre, Tony Joe, and Angie Vazquez, share how their unique brand lays a solid foundation for their professional reputation.  Transcript

Capitalizing on your niche can be the key to moving your business forward—just ask April Brown and Sarah Sklash, founders of The June Motel in Prince Edward County. What started as a side hustle between best friends has now turned into a Netflix sensation and multi-property endeavor.  On this episode of the REAL TIME podcast, April and Sarah share how honing in on their unique offering is what really made The June Motel into what it is today. Plus, hear their take on why focusing on a niche audience can actually make things easier when it comes to marketing your business.  Transcript Shaun Majumder: You feel that leaning into that niche market has really paid off? April Brown: We were sold out that first summer. We were featured in Vogue. It was a wild ride that first year. Sarah Sklash: It's bad when you need a sign, which meant people were gutting fish in it. Shaun: There's a real magic that comes with honing in on what makes you stand out. Not many people know that better than April Brown and Sarah Sklash, the two best friends behind the iconic June Motels, and Netflix's renovation show Motel Makeover. April and Sarah joined me today to talk about their journey to finding June, who may or may not be a real person, and how embracing uniqueness really helped them find their niche and help to create the successful business they have today. Wow. April, Sarah, this is so exciting. Thank you so much for joining me today. How are you doing? April: Good. Sarah: Yes. Shaun: Love it. Sarah: Happy to be here. Shaun: I love it. Listen, this story is so inspirational, it's amazing. I want to start at the beginning. I can only assume that obviously you two went to some mountain town in Switzerland and trained to be world-class hoteliers before you started on this journey. Is that correct? Is that a fact-based assumption? April: Honestly could not be further from the truth.  Shaun: Let's start at the very beginning. How did The June Motel come to be? April: Sarah and I, we've been friends for 20 years now, maybe a little bit more than 20 years. It was 2016 and we were both working separate 9:00 to 5:00 jobs in Toronto. I was working for a PRM marketing agency, Sarah was working for the Ontario government, and we both really dreamed of doing something different with our lives and our career. We were looking for something that would bring a bit more meaning and purpose to our lives at that point. We got together one day. It was the beginning of the year. We cracked open a bottle of wine. We're like, "This is the year we're going to make some changes." We probably brainstormed 50 different side hustles, honestly. They weren't even like, "We're going to quit our job and become a motelier." At this point, we were like, "We're just looking for a weekend thing." There's this little area outside of Toronto that's called Prince Edward County. It's an up-and-coming, or at the moment, at the time in 2016, it was an up-and-coming region with wineries and breweries, cool restaurants. We had been going out there with our girlfriends, drinking wine, seeing it evolve, seeing the opportunity, and we were like, "Oh, wouldn't it be cool to do something out there?" Actually, one of the ideas that we had come up with in that brainstorm was this idea of hosting a weekend wine camp for adults. Shaun: Camp. Oh, I like that idea. You guys would be the head counselors. Sarah: Of course. April: Of course. Drinking all the wine. Shaun: Right. April: We were just looking for a place to host it. Sarah knew that there was this motel that was for sale outside of Picton, and said, "Oh, maybe we would take over for the weekend, and make it cute, and host everybody there." We start thinking through this idea. It was honestly minutes into this brainstorm that we looked at each other and we were both like, "We should just buy that motel." Shaun: Wow. When that light bulb goes off, I assume at that point, you're probably two or three bottles deep? April: At least a bottle. Let's assume at least a bottle. Shaun: Just to get to say, "We should buy that instead of just going and hosting a girl's weekend," that's a huge leap. That's epic, but why not? That sounds exactly in line with your personalities and what you were feeling at that time. That's a huge leap. April: It was a massive leap. I want to say we had that conversation in January, and a couple of months later, we're literally putting an offer in on this motel. Couple of months after that, we are quitting our jobs, packing our bags, moving to this town of 4,000 people, and actually living at the motel. Shaun: Wow. Do you remember what the name of the motel was before it became The June Motel? April: Yes. It was called the Sportsmen Motel and it was a popular stay for fishermen and hunters. To paint the picture, it was musty blue carpets, those old floral quilts on the bed, and the only art in the room is this laminated sign that says no gutting fish in room. Shaun: I think that's a quality rule. I think you should not gut fish. Shaun: I live by that in my house. April: Me too. Sarah: It's bad when you need a sign, which meant people were gutting fish in it. Shaun: Yes. Right. "Frank, I've told you, every season we've talked about this. You've ruined the table every year now, please. You know what, Helen? Let's get a sign. Let's paint a sign, put it in each room." Wow. April: Exactly. Shaun: How much of it did you just look at online and fall in love with at first? How much of it was going there to see it? At what point did you say, "This has got to be the property that we have to purchase?" April: I think we went there with some conviction that this was going to be it. I think we joke when we look back on it now we saw past a lot of things. The floors were sloped, the place was extremely run down, but we had such a strong vision at that point that we showed up and we were like, "This could be amazing. This is it. We need to do this." I think it was that vision and that conviction that we had for the idea that I think just propelled us to see past the sloped floors and the imperfections of this place, and see past what it was and see what it could be. Shaun: Take me through the idea because if you're sitting there, you obviously have gone through a big list of side hustles, and then you honed in on this idea. Was this an inspired idea from that conversation and you just worked it out as you were having these brainstorming sessions, or was it something that was always in your back pocket and you thought, "Wouldn't it be cool if we could find something to do?" What was the idea, per se, Sarah? What were you guys honing in on? Sarah: I think we knew Prince Edward County was a place that we knew people were going to want to be. I had purchased a cottage out there, I think, two years before we started looking at this place. There was more and more talk of Prince Edward County, and yet there weren't that many places to stay. The Drake Devonshire was opening up around the same time, but they were only 10 rooms. The other options were dingy roadside motels or old-school B&Bs. We saw that there was this motel and we thought, "It can be a blank slate. It can be whatever we really want it to be." Really put ourselves in our own shoes and the shoes of our friends and said, "If we were going out to wine country for the weekend, what is it that we would want to have?" Kept going back to that as we thought, "How do we take this dingy roadside motel and make it into a it destination for people to travel to?" Shaun: Now all of a sudden, as you're going through this process, you have to think, what is that it in the it destination? It sounds like you were using your own wants and desires to be the guiding force, correct? Sarah: Yes. We like to call ourselves moteliers. We weren't the first moteliers, but I think we were the first in Canada. We were looking people were doing this in Miami and Texas. We were finding some good inspiration out there. We knew others had been able to take these dingy roadside motels and turn them into something cool. I think the other thing was back to April and I having no experience in hospitality before this, it really gave us fresh eyes as we looked at the entire experience and so went step by step. One example of that is hotel check-in processes. Everywhere you go, some are starting to get better, but overall, they suck. They're slow. They're boring. They're often impersonal and they take a weird amount of time. This is back in 2016 and we're like, "You know what would make this better?" The very first thing that we did was do is like, "Hey, are you checking in? Would you like a glass of welcome rosé?" Right away, that makes the checking process significantly more fun and sticks out, and gives us a chance to really warmly welcome guests to The June. That was just one example, but we kept going piece after piece of this experience and what we could do to make it not just a place to stay, but be an experience and a home base for people when they're traveling in wine country. Shaun: That is that feeling when you show up anywhere and they say, "Here's your welcome drink." I'm like, "Can I charge this to my room?" "No, no. This is on us." That's so nice. Sarah: It's so nice. Shaun: That was something that obviously you would wanted in your own experience wherever you guys went. When you pictured the girls going away, Prince Edward County, just for a weekend, how much of those ideas played into and then certainly clashed a little, probably, with the motel when you went there, and you're like, "Oh, can we even make that dream a reality?"? April, how much of that was a challenge to bring together in the ideas process? April: I think, again, like Sarah said, we really saw that motel as a blank slate. There was nothing we were really attached to. We could wallpaper with funky palm wallpaper. We could put the neon signs up. We had this strong vision and we had this blank slate that we could apply it to, but it was pretty hilarious. I think we had such a strong vision, but we had engaged so many family and friends in helping us to create The June and the first motel in Prince Edward County. It was like we were home stretch, we're a couple of months away from opening, and we had that last big decision to make, which is, what color do you paint the doors? We had a really strong vision for a perfect shade of millennial pink, almost like it was a little sun faded like it had always been there. Again, we drew such inspiration from places like Miami and California and we knew what we were trying to create. When we asked all of our family and friends what color or what shade of pink they liked best, every single one of them was absolutely horrified that we were going to paint those doors pink. Somebody even said, "You don't expect the fishermen to come if the doors are pink. No fishermen are going to stay at a motel with pink doors." It was in that moment that we realized they don't really understand what we're creating here. They're supportive, they're showing up, but they don't really understand our vision. It's our job to stay true to that and stick to it, and so we painted those doors pink. Honestly, it was one of the most iconic elements of The June . Shaun: Oh, that's so awesome. You had, like salmon, going upstream, heading towards the old Sportsman's Lodge to be gutted in a room. You guys were going upstream and you had lots of resistance out of the gates. Let's just take a step back for a second because government worker, publicist, a big idea. This can't be cheap. You guys are starting out-- obviously. it's 2016 markets. Is it cool to ask, we're talking to REALTORS® here, what was the price point of this building to get started and how did you manage to pull that off? Sarah: 2016, Prince Edward County, times were different, and I think motels too. We were, again, on the early side, so not everyone was seeing these places the way we were. Our friends were out there buying houses in Toronto in the $1 million range. That's the same thing that we were looking at motels in Prince Edward County. We also joke, if our budget had been higher, we probably would have looked at historic inns or waterfront resorts, but motels were in the price range where we could figure out how to pull the financing together. Getting into the numbers a little bit there, so we bought just right around a million. We got great advice from our lawyer to try and get them the sellers to do a vendor take-back mortgage. Banks were a little iffy on this boutique motelier or motel idea. Instead of getting a traditional bank loan, we were able to have the vendors have about a 50% mortgage on the property, which was great. Budget's tight, this is our first time doing it. We had a renovation budget of $250,000, which that's to renovate 16 rooms, a lobby, the exterior, landscaping, indoor-outdoor lobby bar. To this day, $250,000, crazy what we managed to do with that, but it did mean April and I were rolling up our sleeves and inviting friends and family out on weekends saying, "Come to wine country and bring stuff to wallpaper and lay flooring." Shaun: Right. Was that discouraging at first, or were you guys like, "We are leaning into this."? Could you see how satisfying that was going to be, or was it just like, "Oh my God, why am I doing this ourselves?" Other people get crews. How much of it was satisfying, how much of it was terrifying, or all of the above? Sarah: Again, we didn't maybe make this clear, but April and I ran the Sportsman Motel for a season. Shaun: Oh, as the Sportsman Motel? Sarah: As the Sportsman Motel. Shaun: Hey. Sarah: We were checking in the fishermen. Oh, yes. Sarah: This was living our Schitt's Creek era. Shaun: Oh, wow. Sarah: Yes, but midway through that season, we knew that's not what the envision was. Midway through the summer, we tore out one of the rooms and DIYed the renovation to one room and we called it the prototype room, which was an amazing exercise and something we still do to this day, was see the transformation, get a sense what's working, what's not. Right off the bat, got that little bit of inspiration. We still say that year of renovating was so fun. We were superhuman. I don't know how we did it, and to this day have never been able to do it quite at that level of involvement again. We really created that place. Every aspect of it, April and I touched and designed and installed. It was pretty amazing. April: I think we also only remember the positive highlights. That's what sticks with you, but there were some dark days of it's the middle of winter and you're going back into that room to lay some more flooring,- April: -you're covered in glue everywhere. It was a lot. Shaun: You are still friends. April: Yes. Shaun: That to me sounds like a miracle unto itself. What were, if you don't mind sharing, some of the creative differences that you were able to find alignment on? Tell me a bit about that process because that had to have been a challenge as well. Sarah: Let's fast forward maybe for that because it's been almost eight years, I think, since we did that. We've opened in Beaver Valley. I'm sure we'll hopefully chat about that a bit. Shaun: Oh, for sure. Sarah: April and I think it's good. I think it's great to have a business partner that you challenge one another, that you don't always see eye to eye on everything. April and I, it tends to be the little things that we will strongly disagree with one another on. Our latest project, it was what side of the bed the garbage cans were going to go on. Was it going to be the first thing when you walk in the room, are you going to see the garbage cans? Are you going to hide it on the other side of the bed? Shaun: Take me through that process. Shaun: How does one decide? Did you test it out? Did you flip a coin? How did that work out? Sarah: The way that April and I tend to make these decisions is we'll go back and forth a whole bunch of times each of us making our point and arguing on why it's one or the other. In the end, there's always one of us that cares a little bit more about this decision than the other. In this case, April seemed to care more, although I've brought it up 100 times since, so maybe I do care. I think it's we both have a lot of trust in one another. We were willing to compromise every now and then on something, but I think The June is as great as it is because we're always bringing our own perspectives to it. Shaun: Yes. I think that sounds like what comes from that design challenge is nothing but good because you guys are testing it, pressing it, and making sure. Then once it comes out the other side, it's going to be better for everybody. Let me ask, which side did it end up on? Sarah: It's hidden. You walk in the door and you may never know that there's a garbage can there. April: Also, not an eyesore. Shaun: Right. Sarah: Shouldn't have gone for the really expensive garbage can, should we have? Shaun: I love that. June Motel. How did this name come about? How is June? What is June? Is it the month? I can assume it's a summer vibe, June Motel. Tell me about how the name came to be. April: We get asked this question so much that I honestly wish there was some great-grandma June that I could tell you about. Not the case. June is a made-up fictional character. Shaun: Character? April: Character. We loved the name June because it was a retro-feminine name, but it also had that start-of-summer feel. When we came up with the name, we really developed a whole personality around who June is. She lives for summer, she loves a girl's getaway, she's a little bit old school, she's bold and free-spirited, and she's always chilling with a bottle of rosé for days like today because she believes in living the good life. She's become a bit of our North Star. Every time we have a difficult business decision to make, a design decision to make, or we're even just thinking about where's that next property, we always stop, we ask ourselves, what would June do? I think because we have gotten to know her so well over the years, she really does keep us on track and keep us focused and doing what we do. Shaun: Wow. This is such a beautiful picture, I can see. Here's a question. Who would play June in the made-for-TV movie about this fictional character? Who would you want to see play June in the movie about the birth of this amazing idea? April: That's such a tough question because I think she's got a lot of different elements to her personality. It's tough to come up with one person. This is maybe more back when we created June in the beginning. She had a much more hippie, free-spirited vibe to her. I think she's evolved from there. Somebody I always pictured was Kate Hudson in Almost Famous. I think that visual has certainly stuck with us. She's fun, she's free-spirited, she's into wellness and yoga, and all of those things. She's grown up with us. Shaun: Right, and she's your North Star. April: Yes. Shaun: Talk more about this North Star idea. Having that particular vision and a personified vision, how has that characterization of this brand helped in other ideas that you might have as you move forward? April: I'll give you an example. First of all, we created The June in Prince Edward County. We went through this whole process of who June is. Then when we found that second property in Sauble Beach, we knew we didn't want to create exactly what we had created in Prince Edward County, but who is June in Sauble Beach? I think that whole exercise of who June is and really knowing her and thinking now about a new destination really helped us to evolve her a little bit. It was now like, "June has this cool beach house. What does that look like? What's the design aesthetic? How do we stay true to who June is but evolve her in a new location, in a new experience, and identity there?" Shaun: Sauble is a different vibe than the Prince Edward County vibe? April: Yes. We like to say that there's very similar characteristics. June is very feminine. She's bold. She's free-spirited. She loves patterns and wallpaper and those things, but how it shows up is a little bit different at each property. In Prince Edward County, it's the palm print wallpaper. In Sauble Beach, it's this sun-faded wave wallpaper. Shaun: That's in this style and design. One thing it sounds like you guys have done a really great job at doing is finding a niche target audience. Talk to me a bit about that. Talk to me a bit about staying true to that niche market. Who is your niche market? April: It started as girls' getaways. It started as Sarah and I saying, "Hey, we're going to Prince Edward County with our girlfriends. What would we want?" We really leaned into that girls' getaway message, all of our photography with pictures of girls on wine trips at the motel. It also evolved from there. I think for us in the early days, it being all about us, designing this experience around us and what our girlfriends would want gave us such a clear picture of who that audience was. We could really visualize it. I think step one is just gaining that clarity. It informs so much. It's like, what are the visuals that you see on social media? For us, it was a lifestyle photo shoot with a bunch of girls sipping wine in our lobby bar. Really bringing that story and that niche audience to life so that when she's scrolling Instagram, she sees that photo. She can see herself in that environment and she connects instantly with that. It's also all the copy, all the messaging, your newsletters. I think when you're speaking to a smaller, more niche audience, it's much easier to develop copy and messaging that is speaking directly at that person or to that person rather than having to be vague and be for everybody. Beaver Valley is very couples-focused, but what we've realized, we've been at this for nine years, is the girls that were coming to The June in Prince Edward County were celebrating their bachelorette parties. They went and they got married and they have a husband now. Maybe they have kids five years later, and so really being able to grow the brand with her and focus on her as the buyer. She is the one that's making the travel decision. She's deciding to stay at The June, whether it's with her girlfriends, her partner, or her whole family. Shaun: Right. There was no fear of exclusion there, I guess. It was more just staying true to your vision. Right, Sarah? Sarah: Yes. I think we like to say that we are for anyone, but we're not for everyone. The audience that actually comes to stay at The June can look all very different and we are going to welcome them as warmly as we can and make sure that they have the best time. I think there's times where we've leaned into understanding who our core target is and what their needs are. One example of that is we're really tech-forward. It's text message concierge and sometimes we're texting you your room code. It is that tech-savvy experience. As a business, we need to make some of those decisions and really lean in in some cases. I think it's okay to really lean into a niche. One of the things we also know is women make-- it's somewhere between 70% and 90% of travel decisions out there on behalf of whoever they happen to be traveling with. Again, creating this brand that really speaks primarily to her has really resonated and brought all sorts of people to The June. Shaun: You feel that leaning into that niche market has really paid off? April: I would accredit that to certainly a ton of our traction in those first couple of years. I think people saw us on Instagram, they saw the pink doors, they saw the photos that these girls were taking with the neon sign behind us and all of that. That started to create that word of mouth and brand recognition and really helped us sell rooms. Shaun: Yes, that's amazing. Especially when you find success, when you guys start growing, expanding, ready to take over the world, it's good to hear that The June Motel and what you choose specifically was wired inside of you is to say, "No, you know what? We're going to stay true to our own voice to be an original voice and not some broad, generalized version of that. Have you ever had an Atom boys hockey tournament come through town and stay at The June Motel? I would imagine there needs to be room for these fellas too. Sarah: Not yet. I think last year I was saying eight-year-old boys come and they love The June so much. They have a great time. We've got campfire s'mores, we've got lawn games. It's a paradise. Parents are having a great time too and motels are really well set up. Again, we've leaned into one target market, but it does still mean the people who enjoy the experience is really still pretty broad and we're going to make the most of every person's stay. Shaun: It sounds like you're definitely hitting the market that I would need to have now. I used to be very, "I want to find these cool, young couples, me and my wife," and now with kids is like, "I need to have a bit of that vibe where I feel like I'm still that young party guy. At the same time, the kids have got to be able to go and do something fun as well." It sounds like you're hitting- April: All the way. Shaun: -all of that as well. Do you feel that there's some-- I wouldn't say resistance, but there is some expectation amongst investors? Do you have investors now? Are there other people that you have to please, that you have to make sure that they're happy with what's going on? How much are you still able to be like, "No, this is what we're doing one hundo. You can't shake us." Sarah: One of the things we've been able to do and chosen to do is to grow without taking on investors outside of a small group of family that supported us along the way who really believe in what we're doing. As we continue to look to grow, we are looking for investors that understand what it is we're doing and believe in it. It's also proven it's successful as well.  Shaun: Yes. Boss. That's all I will say is boss. I love it. It's inspiring. It's amazing and probably really challenging in the world we live in now to stay true to that voice. Kudos to you guys for doing that. It's amazing. Talk to me about the future of June. You guys went from starting in Prince Edward County. Take me through the journey from starting there, then to Sauble. Now you have some future endeavors happening, and there was a Netflix show in there as well. Shaun: Talk to me a bit about that. April: There was. We opened The June Prince Edward County in 2017. I would say it was about a month or six weeks after opening that we really saw immediate traction. We were sold out that first summer. We were featured in Vogue. It was a wild ride that first year. We knew that there was such an opportunity. We needed more rooms for the demand that we had. Then on the flip side, we also loved the process of finding that diamond in a rough motel, re-imagining the entire experience of staying there. That was really what lit us up. I think we realized that when the renovation was done and it was just day-to-day operations, we were like, "Now what? We got to go buy another one." We spent about a year and a half looking at destinations across Ontario and Quebec. We eventually came across this really charming little motel in the town of Sauble Beach. We knew the proximity to Bruce Peninsula, that there was a ton of opportunity in this whole region and that so many people were going there. There was no boutique motel accommodation and we could really fill that gap. As we were actually going through the process of buying this place, a friend of a friend, a friend of actually our graphic designer, was looking to create a show about a motel renovation. She takes us out for a drink. She's like, "I have this great idea. You guys need to go buy another motel so that we can make a TV show." We're like, "We're actually already buying another motel in Sauble Beach." It was just these two projects really coming together at the same time. We went ahead, we purchased the motel. It was about six months later that we found out that Netflix wanted to make the show. Everything started. A couple of months after that, we were filming, we were renovating, and this is right before COVID hits. Shaun: Oh, wow. April: It's a whole disaster. Shaun: A disaster you mean when COVID hit? April: Yes. Shaun: I assume this is all in the show. April: It's all in the show. We had a completely demoed motel. Everything was taken apart. We were really just getting into the renovation at that point, and so there was no going back. Everything was gutted. Nothing was put back together. Construction had to come to a halt. Filming had to come to a halt. We're just sitting on this motel for months seeing our bank accounts drain, giving back deposits at our other motel in Prince Edward County because we had a full calendar of bookings that we couldn't open, we couldn't operate. It was extremely scary time for us, but it has a happy ending. Construction resumed, filming resumed. Materials were impossible to get and we managed it all. The show is like a race to the finish line. I think it's five days before we're opening and we're still building the pool deck. It's not a lie. It was reality. It was a lot of tears. Shaun: Nothing was invented. No producer was like,- April: No. Shaun: -"You know what would be a good conflict here?" It's, no, this was all as raw and reality TV as possible. Sarah: Yes. I think early days, they were trying to find the conflict. We're getting along, things are going well, and then the pandemic, just TV gold. Shaun: Yes. Right. We'll go back to what that hotel was when you bought it. What was it? Was that also a Sportsman's Motel? How did you land on that particular property? April: It was partly the destination and we knew that there was opportunity in the destination. It was also the property itself, it was bigger. It was 24 rooms. It had a pool and a restaurant that had never operated in 10 years. It had this separate building that would eventually become the lobby bar. It was a step up in what we were looking for and it had a lot of mid-century motel charm. We saw the potential in it and we were excited to have a pool finally at the motel. Shaun: How's that business doing now? April: Great. Sauble Beach is killing it. It's super seasonal, so we open from May to October every year. We are mostly sold out there, every day of the week, all summer long. It's a really crazy intense period at that motel. Shaun: Describe Sauble Beach before June Sauble and describe it after. By bringing that vibe into that strip, it wasn't always that. That vibe you said did not exist there, correct? April: No, not from a hotel perspective. When we went there the first time, we did meet a few other people that were doing really cool things, which is always a really good sign, I think, when you're going into a new market. There was the wellness refinery and they were creating healthy smoothie bowls and avocado toast. It was a very cool, trendy little café, restaurant. Then there was also a double-decker taco bus that was also super cool. Both female, young entrepreneurs doing just interesting things there. We, I think, saw those as a really positive sign that there was opportunity and that this place was evolving, and that our guests would have other things in this area that would be exciting and fit what they were looking for. Shaun: Did you guys ever go to Sauble Beach when you guys were younger? April: No. Sarah: Neither of us. The first time we went was to see this property. Shaun: Oh, wow. Anybody who knows Ontario, whether you're in high school or college or cottage country people, but Sauble is so unique. Wasaga Beach was so unique. They all had their own little Midland, that area in Ontario. They all had their own little thing. Wasaga had its own vibe. Wasaga, it feels very bro. I think it still is pretty bro. Sauble didn't have that energy. April: Sauble's much more family-friendly, a little bit quieter. There's really no nightlife, to be honest. Everything is very chill after sunset. It's such a special place. We're three minutes to the beach. Everybody walks down to the beach to see sunset every night. It's really stunning. It's 11 kilometers of gorgeous sandy beach. Shaun: Yes, it's beautiful. Tell me then now about your next property. Sarah: Sure. After Sauble Beach, April and I just got the itch again to find a property. I think we're fast-forwarding, so this is 2021 that we're really in our first season in Sauble Beach. Things have changed by then. Everything's gotten a lot more expensive, and so we've really had to be a bit more patient to find the right property, the right price. What we're looking for wasn't really coming up, but then there was this one place. I've got the REALTOR® app. I have my saved searches. There was this one that I looked at, had put aside because it was only eight rooms. One day I was going back through what I had liked and saved, and there's this eight-room lodge in Beaver Valley, which is 20 minutes outside of Collingwood. It was right on Beaver River. It was a minute away from Heart's Tavern, which was one of Canada's best new restaurants, I think, in 2022. It felt like a place that was worthwhile checking out. When we visited, we found it very, very charming. Shaun: Only eight rooms. Sarah: Only eight rooms. Shaun: Right, which is different from your 24 leap. You went from 16, 24, and now you're entertaining an 8-room. Sarah: Yes. It meant we had to really think about, is this the right fit? There's a couple of reasons why we liked this idea of a smaller property. One was that we kept having groups that wanted to have exclusive access to the motel. With 16 rooms or 24 rooms, we were just a little bit too big to be able to accommodate that. With these eight rooms, a bachelorette could come in, they could take over the whole property, a corporate retreat, a wedding. We had been getting a lot of requests. I think that was something that, after the pandemic, was really desirable for people to just find these spaces to come together. It's also a place where it's really like you're in nature, which I think was also something that people were craving. With Beaver Valley, so this was-- what year is it now? This would have been, I think, 2023 that we purchased it. I had to get creative. We've gone contactless there. Airbnb, a lot of people got pretty comfortable with being texted a code, and so we're like, "We don't need someone to just wait around all day to welcome guests. We can just find this interesting balance between an Airbnb and one of our motels. If you want to come for just a night and get just one room, we can accommodate that. If you want to take over the whole property, then we can also do that." It's been a really interesting exercise. We opened about a year ago now and we're really excited. I didn't mention it's close to Collingwood. In Ontario, that's some of the best skiing that we have, and so we're pretty close to that. We finally have our first year-round property, which is exciting. Sarah: Oh, that's awesome. April: A really special place. Professionally, it was also a really great experience for April and I as we've grown. The first motel fully designed by us, fully renovated by us. This one, we've grown over the years and got the chance to work with Ashley Montgomery designs as an interior designer, worked with a great general contractor and his team. April, I, still end up doing a little bit of heavy lifting all the time, but it was a really great way to see how we can grow and work with great people. Shaun: That's amazing. Going from a couple of friends sitting around drinking some wine to now being incredibly successful business people, do you take time and reflect on that very often, or are you just in the tornado all the time? April: I feel like these podcast interviews, and we do some speaking gigs, it's always fun to think about our story and our journey. I feel like those are moments where we actually got a chance to reflect on those early days and relive some of those memories. Other than that, we're always thinking, "What's next? What's next?" Shaun: That's awesome. That's so good. Is there something next? What is next? Is that next a part of The June? Is it all June? Is the brand June for every property? April: Yes. It's The June Motel. We shorten it, so it's like The June Prince Edward County, The June Sauble Beach, The June Beaver Valley. We think that we've created something really special there. There's a lot of brand awareness that we've built. We have the Netflix show. It feels right to continue to leverage the name and the brand that we've built. It's something we're excited about. They will continue to be June Motels for as long as we think that has potential. Shaun: I do love the personification once again. You've got the young, sassy, we're going to have a girl's weekend. Then June ends up marrying, having kids, goes to the Sauble. She obviously has a terrible breakup with her husband and then wants to just be alone. "I don't want to talk to anybody. I want a contact list. I want to hide out in Beaver Valley and go skidooing, become a survivalist." Wherever June ends up, I would like to see what's next.  By the way, just for the record to all the REALTORS® watching, they did not hire me to do any of their publicity because I am terrible, but I like having fun with this character. I love June. In terms of what's next, will it just present itself, do you think, when you see it you know it, or do you have a vision plan now, it's like, "We are ready to take over the world. June is ready to take over the world."? Sarah: I think somewhere in the middle. We know we want to keep growing. We are always looking out for that next property. We're two people that want some work-life balance as well. I think our new plan is goal is to keep growing, but we want to wait. Finding the right property is so important for us. You just can't rush. There's not always the right place at the right time, and price and cost of everything. We're ready, but we're really just waiting for everything to align perfectly for that next one. Shaun: Your story is so relatable to a lot of REALTORS® out there, obviously, whether the REALTORS® are dealing with individual families looking for their first single-family home or an idea around a business idea. What advice would you have for REALTORS® about finding that niche market? April: I think it's similar to what we've been talking about. It's hone in on what makes you different and lean into that. Not trying to be for everybody, but what is it that you bring to the table that's special, that's different, and own that. Shaun: Sarah? Sarah: I think what April said. I think that personification, sometimes even stepping away from who you are, but I think that exercise has worked really well for us. Maybe it's this alter ego character that can help you really think about who your business is representing. Shaun: Awesome. Where can everybody find all of your assets? Not just the hotels, but in terms of socials and all of that. Tell us about that because I want to right now go follow all of them myself. April: They're all under one social. It's @TheJuneMotel on Instagram and it's thejunemotel.com. Sarah: Come book your stay. Come visit. April: Yes. Shaun: Oh, yes. I want to hit all of them too. I'll pay for my wife. I'll let her go to Prince Edward County. We've been in Prince Edward County. I've done standup in Prince Edward County. I love it so much. There's a surf scene in Prince Edward County too. Sarah: Yes. Shaun: I didn't even know that. It's incredible. Man, it's such a unique area. Then, of course, Sauble Beach as well, it's just so cool. I want to be gifting trips and going myself to all these amazing places. Thank you, guys. This has been so inspirational and exciting. It's so good to hear original stories, original ideas by two amazing boss ladies. It's awesome. I have two daughters and I'm going to share your story with them as soon as I can. They're three and five, so they may- Sarah: Thank you so much. Shaun: -not quite get the whole wine thing. but they'll get it. Mommy's aligned. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us on REAL TIME. This has been a great chat. April: Thank you for having us. This was awesome. Shaun: Awesome, guys. June Motels. The thing that makes you special, that's the thing that people will connect with. Once you find that quality, that offering, that experience, that's going to help you build a community that really, really resonates. Now, you may not get your own Netflix show out of it, but it'll always connect you with the right people, and that's never a bad thing. If you like today's episode, make sure you head on over to your favorite podcast platform, like and subscribe, rate us and review. We really do appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and production courtesy of Alphabet® Creative. Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Shaun Majumder. We'll see you next time on REAL TIME. Sarah: Right before this, I stuck a ball in the fringe because it's Friday. Shaun: Love it. That cost you nothing, so that's good. Sarah: Yes.

Data tells a story, but context helps bring it to life. Earlier this month, the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA) released its resale housing market forecast for 2025 and 2026, anticipating a busy market—starting as early as this spring—as buyers move off the sidelines.  Shaun Cathcart, CREA’s Director and Senior Economist, Housing Data and Market Analysis, joins this episode of the REAL TIME podcast to unpack the housing market outlook; what’s happening in different regions of the country; and how advances in housing technologies could help address housing supply shortages. Transcript

Connections, community, and curiosity. That’s what you can expect from the REAL TIME podcast in 2025. New host, actor and comedian, Shaun Majumder is ready to explore the world of Canadian real estate, cutting through the clutter and bringing a fresh take to some hot topics—all while keeping REALTORS® at the heart of the conversation. Real experts. Real insights. All things Canadian real estate. Right here, on the REAL TIME podcast.

The REALTORS Care® moniker helps highlight the charitable efforts of REALTORS® across Canada. Since 2007, the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA) has celebrated the remarkable contributions REALTORS® all across the country have made to a variety of causes close to their hearts.. On this episode of REAL TIME, we’re joined by Cindi Loforti Lepp and Ken Hammer, two REALTORS® nominated for the Canadian REALTORS Care® Award 2024 for their own incredible community impact. This is a feel-good conversation - listen in and be prepared to be inspired! Transcript

When was the last time you talked in depth about your money? Research shows talking about finances can build financial confidence, and lead to better financial outcomes. But you need to know where to start. On this episode of the REAL TIME podcast we’re joined by Melissa Leong, best-selling author and resident money expert on the daytime talk show,The Social, to dive deeper into the connection between money and happiness, how we use emotion over logic when it comes to financial decision making, some of the most common mistakes made by self-employed individuals, and how being more financially aware can help REALTORS® in their businesses. Transcript

From a trailer park in Newfoundland to buying properties and land across Canada, to even buying and selling homes in the United States, Canadian actor and comedian Shaun Majumder has lived all over North America—in many types of homes. His life journey can be mapped through real estates, with emotional memories attached to every move. On this episode of REAL TIME, Shaun joins us from CREA PAC Days 2024 to share his first memory of home, how his different moves helped shape his journey and experiences, and how finding the right REALTOR® was more about than just who was the most knowledgeable—it was about who was the best fit. Transcript