Self Defense Gun Stories

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 343 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor David Cole. What has been keeping you so busy? David- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been getting ready for match season with some dry fire and reloading. I’m also planning to attend a new instructor course soon. How about you? Rob- Just the usual, but I missed a chance to shoot at the range. We didn’t get a new message this week. I do want to thank Roger for his continued help. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. David- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. As alway, the links to our news sources are at the episode webpage. Our first story took place last week in Chicago, Illinois. Rob- First story- Are you armed in public? You’re sixty years old. You are out before dawn to get some money from an ATM in your neighborhood. You turn to a noise behind you. A man throws his bike on the ground and walks toward you. He pulls a gun from his pocket and tells you to give it up. You have your firearms owners ID card and your carry permit in your wallet. You have your firearm on your hip. You shoot at your attacker and he shoots at you. You’re wounded on your back and on your arm. You run to a local gas station and ask for help. They call 911 while you put pressure on your arm. You give a statement to the police. They take your firearm from your pocket. EMS transports you to the hospital. You are listed in stable condition. Your attacker was declared dead. You are not charged with a crime. David- I like that our defender recognized that Chicago is a dangerous place to live. I like that he got his permits and owned a firearm. Thank goodness he went armed this morning. He had his head up. He recognized a threat. He defended himself. He ran to safety and asked for help. He tried to treat his own wounds and then gave a statement to the police. Rob- I had a question about going out before dawn. Was our defender on his way to work, or did he think that fewer people were on the street so he was safer? David- We don’t know, but there are no safe times of day when you can go out unprotected. It has long been the conventional wisdom that crime occurs mostly at night, but that isn’t necessarily so. The bottom line is that none of us have a crystal ball to know in advance when we will need to be armed…so safest choice is to go armed at all times. Rob- Is there anything else you’d like your students to do if they needed cash? David-  Try to avoid open-air or stand alone ATMs. Indoor ATMs are usually available in convenience stores and markets. Also consider getting cash when you check out at the grocery store. An easy “life hack” is to just buy a pack of gum or other small item, and then use the self checkout to get your cash. That might be harder, as grocery stores have closed in big cities like Chicago, but it is a safer option if available. At any rate, try to find an indoor ATM if at all possible. If you must use an outdoor ATM, try to have a friend with you to watch your back while you conduct your transaction. Rob- This bad guy expected a shooting and found into a gunfight. How should we get our gun out when the bad guy already has a gun in his hands? David- That’s always going to be a high risk move, but if you feel you have no choice, consider ways to distract your attacker, and be prepared to move. Dropping or throwing an item can serve as a distraction for a moment, giving you an opportunity to draw your defensive firearm. One self defense instructor I trained under years ago taught a strategy he called the “survival rap.” This is really little more than using speech to engage the attacker’s brain, hopefully creating enough lag to create an opportunity to fight back or to escape. (And escape is the best option if available) But once you draw, move so that you’re not where the attacker expects you to be. Now the attacker has to track you with his eyes, and then with his firearm. That is hard to do. Another option would be a surreptitious draw, by positioning your body where the attacker cannot see you draw, though this type draw is usually done more slowly when you have more time. Carrying in a coat or jacket pocket can also provide an opportunity to have your hand on your gun without the attacker seeing it. As always, you should practice these sorts of draws and presentation first under the eyes of an instructor, and then stay sharp by continuing practice with a blue training gun, or an unloaded firearm following the rules of gun safety. Rob- When do your students learn about those defensive moves? David- This is more advanced training which occurs after the initial concealed carry class. Rob- Is there more you want to cover on this story, or should we go on? David- It’s a good start. Our second story happened in Reading, Pennsylvania. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender was very smart to get his FOID card, carry license and to carry a gun with him while walking the streets. It doesn’t matter whether he was in Chicago or Anytown USA.  All elderly people are targets because they can’t move as fast and they aren’t as stable on their feet as a younger robber. Anyone who looks and acts like “prey” is going to be “eaten”! This defender was alert. He reacted when he heard a noise and saw he was going to get robbed. He knew he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation. The defender drew his gun and fired multiple shots and he neutralized the bad guy even though he got shot himself. The defender not only stayed in the gunfight and won, he was determined enough to live that he walked a block to get help even though he was wounded. If he had just stopped where he was and sat down he may have bled out before help arrived. The defender gave a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Walking the empty streets in the dark of the early morning makes you a target. If you have to go out at that time to get cash or go to work, take your gun as well as a friend with you, take a flashlight, get your cash from a store not an ATM. Getting and using cash is very dangerous. Criminals see someone flashing a roll of cash and they pounce. Use debit cards or credit cards because they are safer and usually you can get your money back if there are fraudulent charges or they are lost.  The defender should have also had a cell phone with him. If he had a phone he could have stayed at the scene and called for help to come to him.  According to the news report, he left his gun at the scene. This left him defenseless while he was seeking help and some kid could have picked it up too.  The defender was very lucky that the robber on the bike didn’t bring another bad guy with him. Did he know how to engage multiple bad guys? Did the defender know how to draw his gun while he moved to avoid being shot? Did he know how to use distractions to give himself a few moments to draw his gun? Did he know how to shoot from a retention position since the robber was probably close enough to him in order to grab his gun? Did the defender carry his gun in a hip holster or in his pocket? Wearing a coat makes drawing your concealed gun harder and definitely slower to draw. Some good guys carry a small revolver in their coat pocket as well as a larger handgun under their coat. They walk with their hand on the gun in their pocket and they fire the small pocket gun while it’s still in the pocket. This gives them time to access their larger gun with greater capacity on their hip.  Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home? You and your roommates are at home. It is six in the evening when you’re surprised to see a stranger enter your apartment. You don’t know him. Your roommates don’t know him. You ask him to leave. He gets offended and attacks you and your roommates. You grab your gun and shoot your attacker. Now he runs from your apartment. You and your roommates call the police. You put your gun away before they arrive. Everyone stays at the scene and gives the police a statement. They find your attacker. They transport him to the hospital to treat his wounded leg. Your attacker is charged with criminal trespass and several counts of assault. You are not charged with a crime. It looks like your attacker was looking for a drug dealer and got the wrong address. David- I like that someone was armed. I like that they tried to use words before they went to guns. They attempted to defend themselves without using deadly force before eventually resorting to using their firearm. The defenders stayed at the scene and called 911 for help. The victims met the police with empty hands. They also gave a statement to the police. Rob- I know there is more you want us to do.  David- And you can guess what it is. I want you armed even when you’re at home. I want your doors and windows locked. Ideally, I want all of the adults to be armed. I also want you to have a lawyer to call before you fill out the police report. Pennsylvania has a castle doctrine law, which helps these defenders justify deadly force. You need to know if you have castle doctrine in your state, and what that means when it comes to using deadly force in self defense in your home. Rob- This defense is harder than it sounds. David- This situation is way harder than it sounds. Let me lay it out for you. A guy shows up unannounced and won’t leave. He attacks one of your roommates. A second roommate joins in to try and push the guy outside. You’re armed and you’re afraid the guy might have a weapon, or perhaps he is simply stronger and is overpowering you or your roommate. You have to be careful to position yourself so that you don’t shoot your roommate in the process, so it is a very difficult situation. Another consideration is OC, or pepper spray. This can be an option in confrontations which don’t justify deadly force, but exceed your ability to counter with empty hand skills. Rob- When do you learn not to shoot at the bad guy from 7 yards away like you’re at the shooting range hitting a paper target? David- We start that with marksmanship and the four safety rules. We reinforce it during the concealed carry class. We focus on those issues with a combat handgun class. It is also called beyond concealed carry. Rob- Where are we heading next? David- Our third story happened in Atlanta, Georgia. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender asked the intruder to leave. The defender recognized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when the intruder attacked him and his roommate. The defender had a gun that was nearby and he was able to shoot the attacking intruder. The defender stayed at the scene and did not chase the intruder. The defender called 911 and put his gun away.  The defender and the roommates gave statements to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Were the doors and windows locked? How was the intruder able to surprise the defender and his roommates? The defender asked the intruder to leave but the intruder attacked instead. Pennsylvania is a Castle Doctrine state where the occupants do not have a duty to retreat. There has to be a threat of major bodily harm, death, kidnapping or rape in order to use deadly force. Consult a lawyer or take a class on the use of deadly force.  Fortunately, the defender had a gun and it was either on his body or nearby. The defender shot the intruder but only hit him in the leg. If you are justified to shoot, you need to neutralize the bad guy, not wound him. If you don’t neutralize him he might continue his attack. Best practices is to get two hits to the upper, center chest. Could all of the occupants have and carry their own guns? Rob- First this message from Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership JPFO.org http://jpfo.org/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed in public? It is just after midnight. You’ve asked your daughter’s ex-boyfriend to leave. He continues to shout and to threaten your family outside your home. The ex-boyfriend threatens you again and draws a gun from his pocket. He shoots it into the air. You present your own firearm and shoot him until he runs. You and your family retreat inside the home and call the police. Police arrest your attacker and he is now in the local jail. You are not charged with a crime. David- I’m glad that mom was armed. I’m glad she tried to diffuse the situation by asking the daughters ex-boyfriend to leave. She recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat when the attacker drew his gun and shot it into the air. She defended her family from that threat. She stopped shooting when the defender ran. She and her family retreated to a safe place and then called the police. They met the police with empty hands and then gave the officers their statements. That is a good start.  Rob- You called it a good start. What else do you want your students to do that wasn’t mentioned in the news report? David- We win every fight we avoid. While she did well by retreating to a safe place after the shooting…why not do that before the shooting starts? Let’s file a restraining order the first time the boyfriend issues a threat. Then you can stay inside behind a locked door, and then call police and let them deal with it. I also want any adult who can be legally armed to do so. I also want you to have a lawyer to call so you have help filling out your police report. Rob- Where do gun owners learn that? It isn’t in basic marksmanship. It isn’t in their concealed carry class. David- We talk about avoiding a gunfight in our concealed carry class. We mention restraining orders. We talk about the legal use of lethal force, but we certainly can’t cover all of it in one class. This is where having a lawyer who is educated in self defense law comes in handy. Ideally, your family learned all that, and then how to defend each other in a class on team tactics. Rob- Defending a group of people in the dark or the dim isn’t easy. David- I’m concerned that your family is running away from the attacker and they might run into your line of fire. It is your responsibility to not injure innocent people as you defend your family. Rob- Where are we going for our last story? David- Our fourth story took place in Española, New Mexico. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender was armed when she was engaged in an argument with her daughter’s ex-boyfriend. She tried using verbal commands multiple times. She only fired after the ex-boyfriend pulled a gun and fired into the air. She shot the ex-boyfriend until he retreated. She and the family retreated to inside the home and called 911. She put her gun away and gave a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Instead of continuing an argument, try de-escalating the situation. Tell the ex-boyfriend to leave and come back later when everyone has cooled down. If you don’t already have a restraining order, get one. It won’t stop an attack but it establishes a legal papertrail.   If you can’t de-escalate, avoid. Walk away. Retreat to the house and call 911 from behind locked doors before the situation turns into a gunfight. Stand away from the door and any windows so you can’t be seen from the outside or harmed if he breaks down the door. Go to a defensible position behind cover/concealment.  If it’s dark outside, turn on exterior lights and turn off the interior lights. If the argument or attack continues, make the bad guy come to you. Rob- Fourth story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? You and your wife are at home in bed. It is just after four in the morning when you both hear something in your garage. Given that you’re both in your seventies, it was quite a noise to wake you up. You grab your gun and both go to see what is happening. You see an intruder in your garage. You tell him to leave. He attacks your wife and knocks her over. You shoot the attacker. You both retreat into the home and your wife calls 911. You put your gun away before police arrive. You both tell the police where you saw the attacker. EMS declares your attacker dead at the scene. Police know your attacker. He has over 11 prior arrests for burglary and drug charges. You are not charged with a crime. David- This couple decided that they needed a gun for armed defense. It sounds like both homeowners paid attention to the bump in the night. Good for them. They worked together. They shouted that they were at home and that they were armed. The armed defender shot the attacker when his wife was attacked. He stopped shooting when the attack ended. They retreated into the home, but stayed near the scene and called for help. They also told some of their story to the police. Rob- Again, now you’re shooting near your partner to stop an attack. David- Don’t take this the wrong way, but I’m glad that the homeowner fell down. That may have gotten her out of the way so the defender could shoot. Rob- Was this a lethal threat that justified using lethal force? David- Given that the defenders were in their 70s, anyone who starts throwing punches at them is bringing lethal force, and an elderly defender is unlikely to be able to physically overpower a 28-year old career burglar. The news story says their garage and their home were damaged by the break in. That sounds like they locked their doors and windows. Good for them. If you have a garage that is connected to your home, make sure that the interior door is locked as well. That is another barrier that a home invader has to overcome. I’m more worried about you being hurt than I am about the thief taking your lawn mower. Grab your gun and your flashlight. Turn on the lights and call 911. I’d be even happier if you were both armed. I’d also prefer that you not go looking if you believe someone is in your home, if you can avoid doing so. It’s better to barricade yourself in a defensible room and call police. For bonus points, have a motion activated light in your garage and at your doorway. Rob- Is there anything else you want to add? David- I want you to call your lawyer so you win both the criminal defense and the civil defense. I noticed that the civil suit laws in Louisiana where you live, Rob, just got better. Rob- Give us four years and we might catch up with Georgia. David- I hope so. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defenders paid attention when they heard a noise at night. Don’t ignore warnings. The defender grabbed his gun when he and his wife went to investigate. The defender tried using verbal commands but they failed.  The defender shot the intruder when he attacked his wife. The defender and his wife retreated back into the house and called 911. They put the gun away and gave statements to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) New Mexico has Castile Doctrine law. That means that there is no duty to retreat in the event of a home invasion. How did the intruder get into the garage? Were the doors and windows locked.  Motion-detecting lights and cameras are a very good deterrent.  Unless you and your partner are both very well trained and armed, “clearing a house” is very dangerous. You don’t know how many intruders there are, where they are and if they are armed. In this case, the defender’s unarmed wife tried to help investigate the noise and ended up getting attacked and knocked over. She could have become a hostage.  If there are no other family members elsewhere in the house, best practices says: retreat to a defensible room, lock and barricade the door, call 911, turn off the lights and take a defensive position from behind cover or concealment. If the intruder breaks through the door then shoot multiple shots. The door becomes a “fatal funnel”.  Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. David, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? David- Look for my articles at deltabravocharlie.com My latest articles cover changes in the NRA management, the Uvalde report, and gun rights under attack in Virginia…and the insanity of gun control in general. I’m also planning to attend the NRA Annual Meeting in Dallas this year, for the first time in a few years. Come find me and say hello. Rob- After you look at Dave articles and his videos, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. David- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.  

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 342 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Candy Petticord. What has been keeping you so busy? Candy Petticord Candy- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been teaching in Ohio and taking training at WOFT in Florida. How about you? Rob- Life is good. I’ve been carrying and dry practicing every other day. I was listening to some neighbors talk about firearms. People give a lot of bad advice. We received a new comment on iTunes (is 202,368) Nerdly said he likes the way we break down each self-defense situation, and he likes our guest instructors. He gave us a five star rating. Thank you, Nerdly I also want to thank Roger for his help this week. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. Someday soon, all this can be yours. Candy- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Houma, Louisiana. Rob- First story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? You are at home asleep in your bed. It is 5 in the morning and you’re woken up by the sounds of someone downstairs. You grab your gun. You go to the top of the stairs. Your intruder tries to climb the stairs and you shoot him. He runs back outside and you stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for help. You put your gun away when the police arrive. You give the police a brief statement. Police search the area. They collect descriptions and security video from your neighbors. The police identify a suspect and go to his house. An armed woman comes out of the house and is arrested by police. Police find your intruder hiding under a mattress. EMTs take him to the hospital. He is treated for a graze wound to the head. Your intruder is charged with one count of simple burglary and held on an outstanding warrant for violating parole. His girlfriend is charged with simple burglary, obstruction of justice, and possession of a firearm by a convicted felon. You are not charged with a crime. Candy-  I like that the homeowner thought about protecting himself and then bought a firearm. He kept his gun where it was quickly accessible when he needed it. He heard something at night and responded to the sound. He grabbed his gun before he went to investigate the noise. Our defender moved to a position of defensive advantage at the top of the stairs. That is brilliant. The defender shot the intruder when the intruder came up the stairs. Our defender then stopped shooting when the attacker ran away. Our defender didn’t chase the bad guy down the street. He stayed at home and called 911 for help. It sounds like our good guy stayed on the call with 911 until the police arrived, and then he met the officers with empty hands. He briefly described what happened. Rob- That sounds like a good job? Candy- It is a very good job, but there are a few small things we can do to make it into an amazing job. The good news is that they don’t cost much. Make sure your doors and windows are locked. Consider putting safety film on the side windows near your doors. Put motion activated lights near your doors. Since you sleep upstairs, add a motion detector with a chime downstairs. Use a bedside rapid access safe to store your gun at night. Have your cell phone on charge next to your small safe. For bonus points, have a light at the bottom of the stairs that you can turn on from the top of the stairs. You want to see your attacker while he can’t see you because you’re hiding in the dim. Stairs are a pain in the rear end when you’re tired, but they are a wonderful place to defend your family. It takes a squad of men to move one defender off the top of the stairs, but only if you practice. Do you hide behind the left, the bottom, or the right side of the top landing? Work with through the problem at your house and find out. You might want to shout that you’re armed and that you’ve called the police. Rob- There are a lot of little skills hiding inside what you said. You want your students to learn to live with a gun in their home. To learn how to use cover To learn to shoot in low light situations To know what to say if there is an intruder in the home. To know the laws in your state and understand the duty to retreat. Candy- Yeah, that is more than what we teach in our firearms safety class or concealed carry classes. Keep coming back, and we’ll teach you everything we know!! The duty to retreat has the caveat that you don’t have to retreat unless you can do so safely. Since you’re probably moving to a position of greater risk if you move from the top of the stairs, you are best to stay where you are. Rob- Where would I get to practice moving to cover and shooting around it? Candy-  IDPA matches are a great place to practice moving to cover and shooting around barricades. In fact, that’s one of the main purposes of the International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) matches – To teach shooters how to properly handle their firearms in defensive situations and in various environments.  Taking one of my advanced training classes is another great option and you will have the benefit of one-on-one or small group attention and instruction. Lastly, you can join us when we host a Guest Instructor at our facility. Every Guest Instructor at Northpointe Training is invited because I have personally trained with them and I consider them one of the best in their field. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender was aware and he responded to a noise on the first floor of his home. The defender had a gun and took it with him when he investigated the noise. The defender fired on the intruder when he encountered the intruder on the stairs. The defender stopped shooting when the intruder retreated and he did not chase the intruder. The defender called 911, put his gun away when police arrived and gave a statement to the police. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) This incident took place in Louisiana where Castle Doctrine is the law. The defender did not have to retreat like he would if he lived in one of the twelve states that still have “Duty to Retreat” laws.  It’s critical that gun owners know the “Use of Deadly Force” laws in the state where they live because they vary widely. Ignorance of the laws can get you a jail sentence.  Even in a Castle Doctrine state, best practices states that gathering your family to a defensive room, locking and barricading the door, turning out the interior lights and preparing to defend the door from cover or concealment is much safer than trying to “clear” your house alone.  Standing at the top of a stairway is using good tactics. Stairways, hallways and doorways are “fatal funnels” which are much easier to defend than standing in an open room.  How did the intruder get into the house? Did he break in or were the doors and windows left unlocked?  Intruders look for homes that give them easy access and where they can hide while they are breaking in. Use motion lights, trim your trees and bushes near the house and add hurricane film to any glass that can be reached on the first floor. Also apply the film to all of the glass on your doors and any windows within reach of door locks.  Add security striker plates on the door locks and use screws long enough to engage the wood studs for both the striker plates and hinges.  Make your house too much trouble so the intruders will move on.  Rob- Is there more you want to say about this story, or should we go on? Candy- Let’s proceed!! Our second story happened in Memphis, Tennessee. Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home? Your husband is having an affair. You put his possessions on the front porch for him to pick up. It is dark outside when he husband arrives. He tears down the security camera on the front porch and then uses the camera to smash a window at the back of the house. You’re armed. Your husband enters the home and attacks you. You run out the front door. Your attacker follows you. You shoot him and now he stops chasing you. Your neighbors come out and ask what is happening. You shout for them to call the police. You put your gun away and give a statement to the police when they arrive. You show the police your husband’s clothes, the broken camera, and the broken window. EMTs take your husband to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound to the knee. News reports are not clear if our defender was treated by the EMTs. She is not charged. Candy- Domestic issues are difficult because there is often a lot of history between the attacker and defender. I like that she locked the doors and windows. That left evidence of the forced entry. I like that she retreated so it was clear that the attacker brought the fight to her. I like that she defended herself and then stopped when the fight was over. Does a person have the right to break into his own home? You can argue that all the husband’s possessions were already outside the home so this was a personal attack and gaining entry to the home was not about recovering personal property. To prove that point, the husband did attack the wife once he gained entry to the home. The defender fled, so the husband clearly instigated the attack. The defender had a tool that worked at a distance. She is at a disadvantage if her attacker is close enough that he can grab her. She stopped the threat and then stopped shooting. I love that she shouted for her neighbors to call 911. Rob- What else do you want your students to do? Candy- While a restraining order will not stop an attack, it will demonstrate to the court that the husband was in the wrong when he came to the home. That can potentially save you tons of money in attorney’s fees. If you feel threatened or have been threatened, I highly recommend you make the time to file a restraining order to help establish a paper trail.  Shout that you’re armed and have called the police. Shout “Stop, or I’ll defend myself.” You want not just “eye” witnesses, but also “ear” witnesses. You also want to call 911 when you hear glass breaking at the back of your house. If you have a domestic abuser, then you should have a panic button on your phone so you don’t need to waste unlocking it and then dialing 911, especially when you are fearing for your safety or your life.  Domestic attackers often want to get close to the victim during their attack. That means you have to learn how to shoot without extending your firearm out in front of you where someone else can grab it. That is called “shooting from retention” and it is another skill you can learn through my advanced training classes. Since the situation is already documented via the restraining order, I would highly recommend having a deputy present when your husband moves out. Rob- This defender had to shoot as she was moving away from the home and being chased by her attacker. When would your students learn to shoot on the move? Candy-  This is an advanced skillset that would only be pursued after the student had exhibited a strong foundation of safely handling their firearm.  What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender’s windows and doors were locked. She also had a camera. Unfortunately, the camera was mounted so low that her husband could reach it and use it to break a window. Did the defender change the locks on the doors? The defender tried to keep the husband at a distance by using commands and also a gasoline container.?? Unfortunately, these efforts failed.  The defender tried to leave the house but she was pursued by the husband. The defender fired on the husband until he stopped attacking.  The defender shouted for the neighbors to call 911. The defender put her gun away when the police arrived and she not only gave them a statement, she showed them critical evidence of the attack.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender should have gotten a restraining order on her husband if she had time. The defender was armed and either had the gun on her body or nearby when her husband arrived to get his clothes. The defender should have asked a few friends or neighbors to stand with her if she knew that her husband was coming over for his clothes. There’s safety in numbers whether the friends are armed or not.  Did the defender know how to shoot from a retention position? Did the defender have any non-lethal options available?  Could the defender have dropped the husband’s clothes off somewhere else, like at one of his relative’s homes so she would not have encountered him? Emotions run high in these situations and the less contact the better. Could the husband and wife have met at a police station to give him the clothes?  Did the husband know that his wife had a gun? Did she warn him that she did? If the husband was the one having the affair, why did he attack his wife? Rob- Where are we going for our third story? Candy- We’re headed to Denison, Texas. Rob- First this message from the Second Amendment Foundation. Second Amendment Foundation SAF https://www.saf.org/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed in the afternoon at home? It is about 4:30 on a Monday afternoon when you hear someone knocking at your door. The news story isn’t clear if the door was unlocked and the intruder walked inside or if you opened the door to talk to them. The stranger pushes you out of the way and walks into your home. You shout for him to stop. You try and push him back outside. The stranger hits you with a hammer. You shoot your attacker. Now he stops hitting you. You step back and call 911 for help. Police and EMTs arrive. You put your gun away. EMTs transport your attacker to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. It isn’t clear if your injuries required treatment. You are not charged with a crime. Candy- Wow. Who would have thought that you’d get attacked at home in the middle of a work day afternoon. It sounds like our defender was armed. I like that. The defender tried to use words and hands before he went to firearms. I like that too. Our defender used his gun when he had to, and stopped using his firearm once the threat had ceased. Good job. He called the police and asked for help. He stayed at the scene and gave a statement to the police. Rob- The fight only lasted a few seconds. I don’t want it to even last that long if I’m getting hit with a hammer. Candy, when do you talk to your basic firearms class about carrying a firearm on their body at home? Candy- They ask about it during class. We talk about the follow-up classes they can take once they know firearms safety and have solid basic marksmanship skills. I want to point out that this is another example of close quarters armed defense. I’m surprised that the defender wasn’t injured. If you are hurt, then make sure the EMTs treat you and then go to your own doctor for a follow up evaluation as soon as possible but no later than the next day. Those documents are evidence that you were defending yourself from an attack. Rob- There is a school of instruction that says don’t talk to the police. How will the police know that the hammer is evidence of an attack and not something you were using for home repair if you stay silent? Candy- You want to briefly describe what happened and point out evidence. Leave the details for the report your lawyer submits to the police. Rob- I need a lawyer even though I was attacked in my own home? Candy- Yes you do. You need a self defense attorney on retainer, or you need self-defense insurance which will usually provide you with a self-defense attorney via a special Member’s only phone line. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender either had a gun on his body or he had it nearby when the intruder pushed his way into the home.  The defender tried to use verbal commands and he also tried to push the intruder out the door. When those actions didn’t work and the intruder started hitting the defender with a hammer, the defender shot the intruder. The shooting stopped when the intruder stopped hitting the defender with the hammer. The defender stepped back to gain some distance and then called 911. The defender put his gun away and gave a statement to the police when they arrived.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Your doors and windows should always be locked. Don’t open the door unless you know and trust the person on the other side. Don’t stand in front of the door in case the attacker shoots through the closed door. Stand aside or use a nearby window to answer your door. Make sure you can’t be seen from the outside.   A hammer is a deadly weapon. No different than a knife, club or a gun.  The Tueller Drill applies to clubs and hammers as well as knives. If you don’t know what the significance is to this drill, take a class or get an instructor to explain it to you. Remember, don’t just stand there and wait for the attacker to arrive – MOVE! If an attacker is close enough to use a contact weapon, you must know how to shoot from a retention position. That takes training and practice. You also need to know how to shoot with your non-dominant hand in case your dominant hand/arm are injured. Do you know how to do a reload with only one hand? Again, this is taught in advanced training classes. Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Candy- Our fourth story took place in Chicago, Illinois. Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at work on a Saturday? You’re working in a high end jewelry store in the middle of Chicago’s Magnificent Mile. It is just before noon and you see a customer come in and walk around the store. He stops near the exit and starts punching a jewelry display case over and over again. You have your Illinois carry permit. You’re carrying concealed at work today. You present your firearm and shoot the robber several times. He stops trying to smash the display case and falls down. You stop shooting. The robber gets up and runs outside. You stay inside the store. You ask if anyone else is hurt. One of the store employees calls 911 for help. You stay at the scene and put your gun away. You give the police a statement and show them your paperwork. You also show them the security video of the robber when he was inside the store and outside the store. You’re taken to the local police station to give a statement to detectives. Later, you found out that the robber ran up the stairs to the train tracks and fell into a train car. He was arrested and taken to the hospital for treatment of gunshot wounds to the buttocks and stomach. You are not charged with a crime. Candy-  I like that our defender was armed. I like that he called for help and stayed at the scene and spoke to police. Rob- What else do you see here? Candy- The news story doesn’t say that the thief threatened anyone. He just tried to steal property. You are in the difficult position of showing that your use of force was the safest thing to do. The jewelry store worker in this case was not a defender of life but of property. This theft took place in Chicago, not Texas. Texas is the only state I know of that allows the use of deadly force to protect property and even then only under certain circumstances. Considering how liberal the city of Chicago is, the jewelry store worker might be charged with aggravated assault or even attempted murder. The wounded thief will probably sue him in civil court. This gun owner might not have had his concealed carry permit since he wasn’t carrying the gun in public, but only carrying it on his employer’s premises. No matter where you carry, you need to know the law. We now have 28 states that have constitutional carry laws where you don’t need a permit to carry in public. You absolutely need a class to learn what you should and should not do with a firearm in the situations you’re likely to face. Particularly at work where you’re more likely to face a non-lethal threat, please carry a non-lethal defensive tool, such as pepper spray, with you. The FBI states that it is five times more likely that you will need a non-lethal tool than a gun.  Rob- Do I have a duty to retreat when someone is stealing from me? Candy- In most states you do. In some states the value of the property is important in that you might be allowed to use force including lethal force if the crime is a felony. That varies from state to state.  Rob- What do you tell your students? Candy- I tell my students that if it’s not worth my jumping into a tank full of hungry sharks to retrieve an item, it is not worth me drawing my firearm or perhaps even getting involved. As always, we have to ask if there was an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to an innocent party. If the answer is no, then it isn’t a gun problem. Could it have been a gun problem as the large man hit a woman who walked through the store’s main door which was right next to the robber, Yes it could have, but that is speculation rather than something we observe. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) This is a prime example of what a concealed license carrier should NOT do.  The jewelry store worker in this case was not a defender of life but of property. This theft took place in Chicago, not Texas. Texas is the only state that allows the use of deadly force to protect property and even then only under a very specific set of circumstances.  The jewelry store worker had a concealed carry license from Illinois which requires a 16-hour training course. Nowhere in the summary story nor in the news report did the thief threaten anyone. He just tried to steal property.  Considering how liberal the city of Chicago is, the jewelry store worker might be charged with aggravated assault or even attempted murder. And since he voluntarily violated the law, many of the legal defense insurance companies probably won’t cover his legal expenses. Even if the police or DA decide not to charge the jewelry worker, the thief that he shot absolutely will sue him in civil court and most likely win.   This type of situation is why concealed gun carriers should always have a non-lethal weapon available. The FBI states that it is five times more likely that you will need a non-lethal weapon than a gun.   What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Learn the difference between theft and robbery.  Theft is a crime against property, whereas robbery is a crime against a person. This bad guy was a thief not a robber.  You can only use deadly force to save innocent lives, not property. Learn the laws concerning the “Use of Deadly Force” for the states where you live and any state you travel to. “The Law of Self-Defense” by lawyer  Andrew Branka is an excellent book on that subject.  Carry pepper spray or a baton as well as a gun and/or knife. Concealed carriers are not the police. It’s not your job to protect property. In many states, a concealed carrier can legally present their gun and point it as a threat to prevent a thief from engaging in a property theft. Pointing a gun is a “use of force”. But pointing your gun and shooting at a thief trying to steal a car is a “use of deadly force” which is not allowed.   Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Candy, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Candy-  Look for me at the Akron-Canton, Stark & Summit, & Cleveland-Parma Chapters of A Girl and a Gun. My training company, Northpointe Training, is located in the fabulous Parma Armory Shooting Center located in Parma, Ohio. Rob- After you look at Candy’s articles and her schedule, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. Candy- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_   Apple categories- news commentary, self-improvement http://traffic.libsyn.com/dgustories/sdgs342.mp3

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 341 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Amanda Suffecool. I know you’ve been traveling a lot. Amanda Suffecool Amanda- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been in Florida at the Ambassadors’ Academy.  And then Kevin & Sarah Sona’s 2A Freedom Fest  How about you? Rob- I was overseas for a week. When I got back, I dry practiced and went to the range. I noticed my inconsistent shooting from lack of practice. We received a new rating and review on iTunes (367,201) Buzz loves the way we tell the stories and then explain what we might do in their place. Nathan gave us a thank you and said the stories were eye-opening. He wants us to keep up the good work. Dwayne sent in one of the stories we used. Thank you Dwayne, Buzz, and Nathan. I also want to thank Roger for his help again this week. We’re still looking for listeners who volunteer to write or edit this podcast. Someday soon, all this can be yours. Amanda- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm several thousand times a day. We’ll look at a few recent examples. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Fresno, California. Rob- First story-Are you armed at home?  It is just after 10 on a weekday morning. You are at home with your two small children. Your wife calls your cell phone. She says a neighbor saw three strangers run onto your property. The neighbor called her thinking she was at home. You check your ring doorbell and see three men who ran into your garage. News stories aren’t clear if you called the police or if your wife did. You grab your shotgun. You open your garage door and shout get out, get out, get out. One of the intruders dives for the ground. The other freezes. The third one runs away. Police arrive a minute later. You lower your shotgun when the police arrive. The robber who is standing up runs out the garage door. The robber on the floor is arrested by police. You give the police a statement. They tell you that the three robbers were driving a stolen Mercedes and being chased by police after an armed robbery. The police were searching for them after they abandoned the Mercedes nearby. The police found the robber who was standing in your garage. They arrest him. The robber who ran when you entered your garage was found next door. He wouldn’t come out so they sent a dog in to get him. You are not charged with a crime. You are glad your small children aren’t hurt. Your neighbor calls to see how you’re doing. Tag- No Shots Fired Amanda- This family and their neighbors worked together to protect their children. They met their neighbors and had a good relationship with them. They installed a few security cameras. When a neighbor saw something unusual, they called the mom and the mom got the needed information to her husband who was at home. The news report isn’t explicit, but I assume the robbers were in the garage because the garage door to the house was locked.  I also like that the homeowner had a firearm and was comfortable using it. All in all – the family had a well rounded and solid plan for defending their home and more importantly, their loved ones.  I like that the homeowner used verbal commands. He told the robbers what he wanted them to do. Shouting get out, get out, is pretty clear. Unfortunately, it didn’t work. Our good guy didn’t chase or shoot at the robbers who ran away. The defender called 911 and asked for help. He also put his firearm away when the police arrived. Rob- What else do you see in this story? Amanda- It is possible that there was a reason to go into the garage, but usually I want my students to stay away from an attacker. Distance is your friend. There is no urgency to go looking for an intruder.   Stay put and let the police look for them.  I like that the homeowner said go away, but having a shotgun pointed at you sent a stronger message than his words. One of the robbers did what he thought was best, in an effort to not get shot.  Another took his chances that running was better than staying put.   It did not work out for any one of them. Let’s say you have small children at home. You see strangers in your garage. Your doors are locked. The first rule of defense is don’t get shot. That means you go and grab your gun. You get into a defensible position and then you get the police on the way. Remember that the goal is to keep your kids safe rather than protecting the lawn mower and the case of beer that is in the garage. Rob- When do you tell your students about that? Amanda- We’re always answering questions. The class called self-defense in the home is where they form a home defense plan. One of the benefits of a class is we can learn from other people’s choices. You can see what other people did and decide if that fits your family in your home. Just the act of thinking about it ahead of time adds to your defensive layers.  Rob- A long gun is effective, but what if the homeowner was at one end of the home away from his gun and the robbers broke into the middle of this home? Amanda- That is exactly why most of us choose to have a concealed handgun with us. Pants on, gun on.  Then you don’t have to wonder if you can get to it in time. A handgun may not be the best defensive firearm, but it is a good compromise for most of us. Rob- Is there more you want to cover about this story, or should we go on? Amanda- Before we move on, I want you to know that holding someone at gunpoint is hard. We teach people how to do it, and there are ways to do it wrong that put you at risk. I compare it to having caught a tiger.  You can’t trust it, even for a second.  Many times it’s better for the homeowner if the bad guy runs away. Now let’s go to Las Cruces, New Mexico. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender had a camera and a gun. He realized that he and his children were in a potentially immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation.  The defender checked his Ring camera and grabbed his gun. Either the defender or his wife called 911. The defender tried verbal commands.  The defender did not pursue nor shoot the bad guys that ran away.  The defender lowered his gun when the police arrived.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Self-defense is about problem-solving. These situations happen very quickly and they can have deadly results. Having a plan, using situational awareness, tactics, distance, cover, concealment and various weapons are all tools that we use to solve a problem.  THE PROBLEM: The defender was at home with (2) small children when he was notified that he had (3) trespassers in his garage. Were they armed? Were they dangerous? What was their intent? THE DEFENDER’S SOLUTION: He confirmed that the bad guys were there using the Ring camera, 911 was called and he grabbed his shotgun. So far so good. But when he opened the garage door to engage the bad guys, he had no idea where they were, whether they were armed or not and how desperate they were. There was nothing in the garage that justified his walking into a gunfight. This defender not only put himself in danger but he also put his (2) small children in jeopardy. If he was shot, who would protect the kids? BEST PRACTICES SOLUTION: The #1 rule of self-defense is DON’T GET SHOT! Don’t put yourself or others into a position where people get shot or injured unless you are saving a life. After 911 was called, he should have gathered the children into a defensible room, locked and barricaded the door then prepared to defend from cover or concealment. Use the door as a “fatal funnel”.  ADDITIONAL TRAINING: Holding a bad guy at gunpoint is very dangerous. Knowing how to do it is a critical skill that requires knowledge and training. If you don’t have the training, don’t do it. Also, do you have the training and the equipment to treat a gunshot wound? Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public? You’re standing next to your car in a business parking lot. It is about 5 in the afternoon when You see a policeman approach a homeless man who is standing in front of a business. The homeless man stabs the police officer. The officer yells and falls. You reach into your car and grab your gun. You shout for the attacker to stop. The attacker advances toward you and you shoot him. He falls. News reports aren’t clear what you did with your gun. You run up to the officer and use his radio to call for help. Police and EMTs arrive quickly. You step back but remain at the scene. EMTs transport the officer. You give the police a statement about what you saw and what you did. The attacker is declared dead at the scene. Later, you find out that the officer died in the hospital. His attacker had a criminal history including domestic violence, kidnapping, failure to appear in court, and repeated drug use. Police get security video from the businesses nearby. You are not charged with a crime. Amanda- Yikes. You see a policeman being attacked and what should you do. If you haven’t thought about it ahead of time then you’re going to stand there with your mouth hanging open as the policeman is stabbed again and again. Our defender decided that he needed to have a firearm with him as he drove. That helps too. Again, the defender tried verbal commands. In this case they worked, sort of. The defender used his firearm when he faced an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable attack. He used the policeman’s radio to get help and he stayed at the scene. Rob- What else do you want your students to do? Amanda- I want you to have your firearm with you all the time. This citizen was lucky that he was near his car and not near the crazy man with a knife. Depending on luck is a bad plan. I can’t tell if using verbal commands in this case was a good idea or a bad idea. I don’t think we know enough to decide. Rob- What are the arguments on each side? Amanda- There is a family member you love being attacked. You already have the legal justification to shoot and you don’t have to wait and issue verbal commands while your loved one is stabbed three more times. Rob- And what is the other argument? Amanda- Maybe shouting for the bad guy to stop was all it took for the murderer to look at you and move away from the officer. Your words prevented the officer from being stabbed again. Maybe the murderer was kneeling next to the officer and you thought that was a hard shot. With the bad guy standing and moving away from the officer you have a clearer shot with less risk of accidentally injuring an innocent party. Rob- What else do you see? Amanda- I want you to have basic trauma care training and materials. If your spouse is stabbed I want you to know how to keep them alive until EMTs arrive. Now that I’ve given out homework for the week, our third story happened in Fullerton, California. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender had a gun near him and he responded when he saw a police officer getting attacked. The defender tried using verbal commands but they failed. The defender shot the attacker while he was being rushed. Perhaps he knew about the Tueller Drill since the bad guy was stopped before he was able to complete his attack on the defender.  The defender stayed on the scene, radioed for help and gave a statement. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) According to www.handgunlaw.us, New Mexico law allows loaded handguns concealed in your car without a permit. This defender had his gun in his car instead of on his person. “Pants On, Gun On” is always best if you can. What would have happened if the defender was 25 feet from his car when he saw the attack? Would he have had time to get to his gun?  Learn about the Tueller Drill and how to use that information in a real fight. Remember, if someone is running at you, you can either step aside or start running away from the attacker in order to get more time to react. DON’T JUST STAND THERE- MOVE! Did the defender know how to stop the police officer from bleeding out? Did he have a tourniquet or chest seal? Take a class and keep a trauma kit in your home and your car.  Rob- First this message from Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership DRGO https://drgo.us/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work? You work as a security guard. Today, you’re standing in a strip mall jewelry store. It is about about noon on a weekday when you see three men get out of a car that pulled up outside the store. The car doesn’t park. The three men who got out are all wearing masks and they are carrying pistols in their hands. They start to walk toward the jewelry store. You present your firearm and shoot at the robbers. They run back to their car, shooting at you as they run. The news stories aren’t clear if you called 911 or if someone in the store called them. Neither you, nor store employees, the store customers, or any bystanders outside the store are injured. You give a statement to the police when they arrive. There is extensive news coverage of the event, but that doesn’t include the store security video. The owner says that jewelry stores are robbed because the jewelry is so easy to sell for cash. You were supposed to meet with the store owner today and talk about extending your employment and asking for more money. They seemed to like you before the attack. They certainly like you now. You are not charged with a crime. Amanda- We have to stop and explain. A security guard is not a police officer. He does not have arrest powers. He doesn’t have a squad of guys who come running when he calls on the radio. He is a civilian with some training and a cheap blue uniform. The guard saw a robbery unfolding. Good for him that he was doing his job rather than playing with his phone. He reacted which tells me he had a plan. We don’t know if he was inside or if he was already standing outside the store. We know he was outside the store when he started shooting at the bad guys. He didn’t chase them after arriving at the shooting location. He stayed at the scene and gave a statement to the police. Rob- What else can we learn here? Amanda- Ideally, the security guard is wearing clothes that you’d see on a customer or on an employee in the store. We want the staff and the guard to train together. The staff knows to drop to the floor when the guard yells “threat” or whatever their training word is. We want a panic alarm that calls 911 with one touch. We want to hit our intended target with our first shots. Let me repeat.  We want to hit our target the very first time. That takes training and practice. We also want to look at the store so the security guard has some cover when he defends the customers and staff. I want every business owner to have a plan. You move the customers to safety. You check on them and then tell 911 what you need. I want your store employees to be armed as well. There are lots or reasons why a single armed guard is a weak plan. Some stores who want high security use a revolving door so they can’t be rushed by a gang all at once. Rob- Are there security consultants that can help convenience stores, jewelry stores, and marijuana dispensaries? Amanda- There are consultants, and there are business groups who share what they’ve learned in the area.  Depending on your business and your budget, there is help out there for you and your business Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Amanda- Our fourth story took place in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The security guard was armed and alert. He noticed the (3) attackers with masks and guns.  The defender recognised an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation and reacted. The defender stayed at the scene and provided a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Ideally, the security guard should not have been in a uniform. That just puts a target on his back. Working in the showroom in plain clothes or being concealed behind a wall is much more effective. Was the guard wearing a bullet-proof vest? The guard fired multiple shots at (3) bad guys and didn’t hit any of them. Every bullet he fired has to hit someone or something.  Did the guard fire on the bad guys while they were still spread apart outside of the store or did he wait until each one of them came through the door and use it as a “fatal funnel”? Tactics are more important than firepower.  Did the guard use any cover or concealment?  Did the guard have the equipment and the training to stop the bleeding from a gunshot wound to himself or others? Once the shooting was over, did the guard move everyone to the back of the store, out of sight and lock the doors? Sometimes the bad guys come back and they bring their friends.  Did the store have a plan in the event of a robbery? Did everyone know where to go and what to do? Was the plan rehearsed? If the first plan doesn’t work, what’s plan B? What would the store personnel do if the guard was shot? What would have happened if the robbery took place during the guard’s lunch break? Does he stay in the store or go elsewhere? Who covers for him? What if he calls out sick? If the store had a revolving door or a second door in a narrow breezeway, that would restrict the traffic flow to only one customer at a time. That makes it easier to defend.   Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public? You are waiting at an auto repair shop. Your 12 year old son is with you. You hear gunfire from the back of the repair shop. Your son grabs his head and falls down. You hear screams from inside. You see a man with a  gun shooting at people inside the shop. You have your Pennsylvania concealed carry permit. You’re armed today. You present your firearm and shoot at the attacker. Now he runs. You reholster your handgun and check on your son. News reports aren’t clear if you called 911, but a lot of customers did. You and your son stay at the scene. You identify yourself to the police. EMTs take one of the mechanics to the hospital. Your son is treated for a graze wound at the scene and released. The officers say that the mechanic was the intended target and your son was struck by a stray shot. You are not charged with a crime. Amanda- This is the opposite extreme of a security guard at a jewelry store. He somewhat expects and is prepared for bad things to maybe happen.  You’re going to have your car worked on and you take your son with you. You expect nothing.  Unfortunately, a criminal decides to shoot the place up while you’re there and you have to defend your son and other innocent parties. Wow. I’m glad our defender was licensed, trained, and armed. Well done. AND the big thing is here,  does he take action to stop the shooting or render first aid to his child?   He recognized it was time to shoot and he did. Hard as it is, you have to stop the threat first, THEN render first aid.  He stopped the killer and then took care of his son. He stayed calm, working with EMT’s and  gave a statement to the police. Rob- What else can we learn from this story? Amanda- If you can, I’d like you to participate in some defensive pistol classes, then move on to competitions USPA, or IPSIC. You see people move and shoot over and over. That is the antidote to training at an indoor shooting range where you’re forbidden to draw or move your feet. If you cant do that, at least when you dry practice I want you to move to cover as you draw. As I said before, I want you to have medical training and a medical kit.  What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Anyone. Anywhere. Anytime. The defender had his License to Carry a Firearm and he had a gun on him while going about his normal day. The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation. He drew his gun and fired on the attacker. The defender stopped shooting when the attacker ran and he did not chase after him.  The defender stayed at the scene, holstered his gun, checked on his son and gave a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The Fight, Flight or Freeze response kicked in but the defender did not freeze. He drew his gun and returned fire. Most untrained people freeze when the adrenaline rush hits. Stress inoculation training and pre-visualization help you respond instead of freezing. This training adds to your “Library of Responses”. Again, the first rule of self-defense is “DON’T GET SHOT”! Hopefully, the defender grabbed his son and pulled him behind cover or concealment. Staying in the open can get you killed. Move first, then draw and return fire.  Head wounds can be very bloody. Did the defender know how to apply pressure to the wound with gauze or a clean cloth? Since the defender didn’t hit the bad guy, this was a psychological stop not a physical one. The attacker met with resistance so he decided to run off. Let him go. Protect the wounded and make sure the bad guy doesn’t return. Lock the doors. Don’t reholster your gun until the police arrive but be sure to greet them with empty hands- no gun, no phone.  Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Amanda, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Amanda- My eye on the target radio show is syndicated coast to coast on Sunday nights from 5 to 7 eastern time. The show is also on video at OpsLens. I instruct on the weekends in Northeastern Ohio. I’m part of the DCProject – Women for Gun rights  that you can find at WomenForGunRights.org Rob- After you listen to Amanda podcasts and watch her TV show, then please leave her a message on our podcast episode webpage. Amanda- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 340 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Tony Simon. What has been keeping you so busy? Tony- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been at shot show and then conducting Diversity Shoots here in New Jersey. I have five more planned already this year. How about you? Rob- We did not receive a comment on iTunes this week. Oh Facebook, Ray asked if we’d make an hour long podcast that came out once a month. I’m not sure if he wanted a best of show, or a deep dive into one or two stories. What do you think? Dwayne sent in a news story where a 70 year old man used a muzzle loading rifle to fight off three intruders. Unfortunately, his son might have deliberately given the robbers access to the home. The link is in our show notes. I also want to thank Roger for his help again this week. Tony- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Bartlesville, Oklahoma.  Rob- First story- Are you armed at home in the morning? It is early morning and you’re already at work on your laptop. You hear someone banging on the front door of your apartment. You hear them shout for you to open the door. You are not expecting visitors. You grab your gun and shout for the stranger to go away. You grab your phone and call 911. The stranger keeps hitting your door. They break the door hinges out of the door and doorframe. They tear the security chain off the wall. The door flies across the room. Your intruder enters your home and you shoot him one time. He stops. News reports aren’t clear if your attacker fell inside your home or if he ran outside. You ask the police dispatcher for help. You put your gun away when officers arrive. EMTs transport your attacker to the hospital. You give the police a statement. You don’t know the intruder. You are not charged with a crime. Later you find out that your 23-year-old intruder had been scammed and thought he was meeting someone for sex. Tony-  You are the fastest responder to your emergency. The defender was prepared to defend herself with deadly force if necessary.  I’m relieved that she owned a gun. I like that her doors were locked during the day. I love it that she didn’t open the door for a stranger. It sounds like she was armed at home or at least had her firearm nearby. She got her gun and called the police as the problem developed. She stayed on the call with the dispatcher, but she put the phone down and stopped talking when it was time to defend herself. She stopped shooting when the attack stopped. She made herself available for the police when they arrived. All that sounds like a plan to me. Good job. Rob- When did this become a gun problem? Tony- When a stranger displays enough force and violence to break down your front door, then you face a lethal threat or serious bodily harm. That threat is immediate and it is unavoidable. That justifies both the lethal use of force and the moral use of force to stop the threat. Rob- There is a time to talk and there is a time to shoot. When do you help your students build that line in their decision making? Tony-  Your immediate need is to make yourself safe. De-escalation is good but recognize when it isn’t working or when it’s employment is useless. I use this podcast as teachable moments for students and when I discuss armed civilian self defense.  The attacker kicking her door in wasn’t stopped by her telling him that she was armed or that she called police. Once the door was kicked open it was time for the immediate application of force.  This is a good example of that decision making since home invasions are common. Rob- What else do you see in this story that wasn’t mentioned by the police or the reporters?  Tony- I’m glad she wasn’t next to the door when it was shoved into the house. Also, we can use a doorway to make defense easier. The bad guy is going to come through the door. That means we can aim our gun at the floor immediately inside the door ahead of time. We can pay attention to the door. We want to be far away from the door, preferably in another room looking at the door from behind something to conceal our location. I’m imagining being behind a couch or a doorframe. That makes it easier to aim because we don’t have to track the attacker with our eyes and our gun.  Rob- Our attacker shot one time. What do you recommend? Tony- Shoot multiple times then assess if the threat stops. Firing and hitting an attacker with one round, especially with a handgun, may not stop the threat immediately. They may not have suffered a “fight stopping” hit that immobilizes them. They may not know they are even hit. They could still attack you even though you have shot them. Don’t make a habit of shooting a particular number of times when you train. Practice firing a string of accurate shots. If you have an instructor training with you, they should tell you that the threat is down, and then you access the target and if the target is down or stops attacking  you stop shooting. Some ranges have turning targets. Rob- Is there more you want to say about this story, or should we go on? Tony- Our second story happened in Jackson, Mississippi. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender had a plan: Her doors were locked. She had a gun. She did not open the door. She shouted through the closed door for the intruder to leave. She called 911 immediately.  Once the door broke, she was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation. She fired only after the door was breached and she stopped shooting when the intruder stopped. She stayed on the line with 911 and gave a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Good thing she wasn’t in front of the door when the intruder broke it down. Never stand in front of a door because you will be hit by the falling door if the hinges and the lock give out. Also you don’t want to be in the line of fire if the attacker starts shooting through a closed door. Stand to the side at a distance. Doors are “fatal funnels”. You can cover a door from a defensive position behind cover or concealment away from the door. The intruder can’t move out of the way once the door breaks. Your gun is a distance tool. Use that to your advantage. “Distance and cover are your best friends.” The defender only fired one shot. In this particular case that was enough to stop the intrusion. How many shots should you fire? Zero, a full magazine or anything in-between. Fire as many shots as it takes to stop the threat. The threat isn’t over until the bad guy retreats (without shooting back at you), he surrenders or he’s down and not moving. As long as the bad guy is still moving, he can continue his attack. And always remember “Don’t turn your back on anything but a corpse.” Also make sure to scan the area and make sure the bad guy didn’t bring friends with him.  The 10 Self-Defense Commands (by Roger Temple): Scan the hands. Shoot upper chest. Move to cover. Find the rest. Carry a gun, phone, ammo and light. Know the law so you do it right. When the threat’s over the shooting stops.  Call 011. Don’t talk to cops. Most important of all- Have a Plan! Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at work? You are a contractor doing a job for the city water department. You and your co-workers are on site when a car drives up. A man gets out of the car and starts yelling. He draws a gun and starts shooting at you. You and your co-worker shoot back. Your attacker drives away. You stay at the scene and call 911 for help. You put your guns away when the police arrive. You and your partner give statements to the police. Your attacker crashes his car nearby. EMS takes him to the hospital for treatment of three gunshot wounds. He will be charged with aggravated assault when he is released. One of the news reports said the attacker knew one of the contractors. You are not charged with a crime. Tony- I have spent time in Jackson MS. Depending where in Jackson, it can be a dangerous place. I’m glad these men were gun owners and that they were armed at work. We can’t tell if they were marking pavement on the street or if they were in someone’s yard and chest deep in a construction hole.  They recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat when someone drove up and shot at them. They defended themselves. They stopped shooting when the attacker drove away. They called for help and gave a statement to the police. Rob- Some states allow government contractors to carry. Some states encourage EMTs and firemen to carry. How do we find out what is legal and expected? Tony- Start with your lawyer. Second best is to ask your boss and your local firearms instructor. If this is a union job, then they are involved too. You have to know the law if your routinely travel onto government property. You also need to understand that regardless of the law you are responsible for your safety and security. Rob- What else would you like your students to think about at work. Tony- We don’t all work in an office wearing office clothes. We might have on a work shirt and boots. We might carry a tool bag with us. That brings its own issues with concealed carry, and those issues change more with the seasons than if you’re working in an airconditioned office. I want you to carry on your body because you might be dead by the time you run back to your truck to grab your gun that is hidden under the seat in a rapid access gun safe. Rob- What else do you see here? Tony- The story doesn’t mention it, but I want you to shout if you can. We want ear witnesses who heard you shout ‘stop’ before you shot back. Shouting stop doesn’t mean you have to stop moving. You can shout as you present your gun and move toward cover. Afterward, I want you to be sure and shout for others to call 911. That means all the ear witnesses are listed at the 911 response center. Shouting, moving, and presenting under some stress are all parts of advanced training. As ordinary as it sounds, this defense was hard work. Rob- Where are we going next? Tony- Our third story happened in Chicago, Illinois. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Anyone! Anywhere! Anytime!: These contractors were armed as they did their normal jobs. The attacker always has the advantage of knowing when, where and how the attack will take place. These defenders were prepared.  Firearm Availability: It sounds like they had their guns on them when they were attacked. If your gun is out of reach, it’s useless. You could be dead by the time you go to your truck to get your gun. Reaction time is critical.  Accuracy Under Stress: The two contractors hit the attacker three times while under attack. That takes training and practice. Fortunately, the defenders moved and the attacker was not a good shot.  The defenders stayed on the scene, called 911. Met the police with empty hands and gave brief statements.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Carrying At Work. Is it legal to carry a gun at work? That depends on your state and whether you work for a private company or the government. Every state has a list of places where you can/can not carry a concealed gun. A good place to start is www.handgunlaw.us. In some states, a “no guns allowed” sign carries the weight of law and you can be prosecuted if your gun is discovered. In other states, a “no guns allowed” sign merely means that you have to leave the property if your gun is discovered and you are asked to leave. If you refuse to leave you can be charged with criminal trespassing. If you work for a private company and they have a “no guns” policy, you can be terminated for carrying on the job or sometimes in the company’s parking lot. If you work for the government (especially federal), you may be prosecuted.  It also makes a difference if you are the owner of a business or just a worker (Castle Doctrine usually covers your home, your car and your business.) Check with a lawyer, take some classes or some pre-paid self-defense insurance plans let you call and ask them. KNOW THE LAWS FOR EVERYWHERE YOU WANT TO CARRY. You also have to know the magazine capacity restrictions and the type of ammo allowed. Even whether you can carry a back-up gun or not. Every state is different.  Rob- First this message from Faster Colorado. https://fastercolorado.org/   Rob- Third story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? You’re at home and asleep in your bed. You’re startled awake by a crashing sound. You hear someone in your apartment. You grab your gun and go investigate what is happening. You see someone in your apartment and they rush at you. You shoot them before they reach you. You step back and turn on the lights. You grab your phone and call 911 for help. You stay at the scene. You stay on the call with the police dispatcher. You put your gun away when the police are nearby. Police arrest your intruder. EMTs take him to the hospital with a gunshot wound to the leg. You give the police a statement. You show them your identification and your concealed carry permit. Since you knew the intruder, this is being called a domestic incident. You are not charged with a crime. Tony- Some crimes are random, but a lot of them involve someone who knows us. It might have been a friend of a friend of a roommate, but they somehow think that you have something they want. I’m glad our defender went through the trouble of legally getting a gun and a carry permit in Chicago. You don’t need a carry permit to be armed at home, but it helps. Suppose you are armed at home, but you want to go to the laundry room, or the trash chute, or the mailbox, and that way you can leave the gun on you rather than having to take it off all the time as you do chores. Again, our defender recognized that an intruder in the middle of the night is a threat. This is different than our first story since the defender didn’t recognize a problem until the intruder was already inside his home. They defended themselves and then asked for help. Rob- How do we store a firearm so we can get it in a hurry, but it is also secure when it isn’t in a holster on our body? Tony-  Concealment furniture is a great option that allows you quick access to your firearm while it’s hidden in plain sight. NJ Concealment Furniture was making handmade furniture and the owner started producing furniture with hidden secured compartments to hold your firearms. To open the compartments you would have to know where the secret release was located or use various  access control methods that they in install in his shop. He’s no longer making furniture but that’s how I learned about keeping firearms close but out of sight. There are other companies that produce this type of furniture .  Rob- Lots of people think they are safe in an upstairs apartment. The building is solid concrete. There is a security gate outside. Do they need a motion detector in their home? Tony- I think they do. They need it for the same reason they have a carbon monoxide detector in their home, for the same reason they have a smoke detector in their home. They might have a problem in their home and not know it until it’s too late. Rob- How much do those cost? Tony-  From 20 to 100 dollars. Do you want the detector to text your phone when you’re not at home? Rob- Do you see anything else? Tony- Consider putting your flashlight in your bedside gun safe. You have to identify your attacker. Identity is a big consideration in a home invasion. On the street, the flashlight might encourage the attacker to go after someone else. I’d normally ask you to retreat to your bedroom, but this guy just kicked in your front door, so he is going to easily kick through a bedroom door. That said, shooting him when he crosses your bedroom doorway is an easier shot and it is easier to defend legally. Those legal issues are real, particularly in Chicago. Also, where do you keep your cell phone at night? Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Tony- Our fourth story took place in Upper Darby, Pennsylvania. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender had a plan. He took the time, the effort and the money to get a carry license in Chicago- that’s not easy nor cheap. The defender recognized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when the intruder broke in and rushed him. It doesn’t matter whether the defender knew the intruder or not. The defender was still under attack.  The defender stopped shooting when the threat stopped. He called 911 and gave a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Flashlights: Either a handheld or weapon-mounted flashlight should be part of everyone’s home defense system. Your gun, an extra magazine or ammo, a flashlight and your cell phone are the essential items for your “go bag”. Using a flashlight to identify your intruder and assist in aiming your gun is critical. Don’t shoot at shapes, shadows and sounds. Know what your target is and what’s beyond it.  Best Practice for a Home Invasion: If you hear a strange noise- don’t investigate! Trying to clear a house by yourself is very dangerous. Call 911 and stay on the line with them. Retreat to a defensible room. Turn the lights off in that room. Put some furniture in front of the locked door. Take a defensive position off to the side of the door. Get behind some cover or concealment and cover the door with your gun/flashlight with your finger OFF the trigger. Do not shoot until the door is breached.  Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you drive? You are sitting in your car. It is after midnight and a white car drives by. That car knocks  the side mirror off your car. You drive after them to get a license plate number. The white car stops and a man gets out of the back seat. He has a gun in his hand and walks toward you yelling for you to get out of your car. You are being carjacked. You have your concealed carry permit in your wallet. You have your personal handgun in a holster on your hip. The news isn’t clear if you get out of the car or remain inside. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker. He shoots back and runs to the white car. They drive away. It isn’t clear when you put your gun away and if you called 911. A police officer nearby hears the shots. He asks you what happened. You tell him about the car, the mirror, and the carjacking. The officer puts out a description of the white car and the robbers. You show the officer your identification and your carry permit. Police follow the white car and catch two of the three robbers. One of the robbers is taken to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound. The white car was stolen yesterday. You are not charged with a crime. Tony- I like that our defender had a gun because that might have saved his life. I like that he shot when he saw the lethal, immediate and unavoidable threat. I particularly like that he hit a moving target in dim light.  Rob- What would you like your students to do in this case?  Tony- Don’t cause a twenty-thousand dollar legal problem to solve a 200-dollar auto parts problem. Don’t chase strange cars after midnight. Call the cops. For the price of the mirror, you could buy a video camera for your car. I know it is tempting to sit in the car as it warms up, but you’re not safe there. Dress warm enough that you can get started even when the car is cold. I don’t know what to do about a frozen windshield.  I don’t have a perfect solution, but I want you to keep your head up and look around. If you can, make the 911 call. That puts you in the police register as someone who was a victim. That and your carry permit change the way the officers react to you. Rob- What you said is more than what we learn in a concealed carry class. When would you cover getting out of your car and then shooting on the move in low light? Tony- I don’t teach low light classes but I hosted low light classes taught by qualified instructors. It is very important to get training in facing deadly threats during the hours of darkness. That’s when a significant percentage of attacks occur.  Rob- Definitely more than beginning firearms safety. Tony- Usually after concealed carry and holster presentation. Those advanced classes are there if you look for them. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Fortunately, the defender was armed and had a carry permit.  However, he did not have a plan and he used poor judgment. . What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Don’t Look Like Sheep: Sitting alone in a car at night, in the dark is an invitation to criminals to take your car, your wallet and maybe even your life. If you have to sit in a parked car for whatever reason, go to a place that has lights, cameras and witnesses. Keep your head up, on a swivel and be aware of your surroundings. If you don’t, you look like “sheep” to the “wolves” they won’t eat you. Learn to look at yourself and your actions through the eyes of a criminal. Are you easy prey or are you too much trouble? Emotional Control: Strong emotions cloud your judgment. Chasing someone who hits your car and takes off is only asking for trouble. If you chase someone, you may become the aggressor in a self-defense case. The defender should have stayed in his car where he was hit and called 911 with a description of the other car and passengers. Insurance covers hit and run accidents. Let the police do their job. Carrying a gun does not make you invincible.  The Soft Skills: The end of the news article states that the district attorney is still deciding whether to charge the driver whose car was hit. The only time you are allowed to use deadly force is if trouble comes looking for you. De-escalate, evade, escape, avoid and only when all of those fail are you permitted to defend yourself.  Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Tony, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Tony- Find me at Diversityshoot.com I’m also on Instagram and facebook at Simon Says Train, and at The 2nd is For Everyone podcast. Rob- After you look at Tony articles and his schedule, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. Tony- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.  

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 339 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Robyn Sandoval. What have you been doing since we talked? Robyn at the Range Robyn- Hi, Rob.  I just returned from SHOT Show. I had 2 range days, 2 podcasts, and 30 meetings in just five days, but it was great to get some facetime with A Girl & A Gun sponsors and friends. Now I’m back in the office planning events for 2024. How about you? Rob- I’m good and I’ve been doing some dry practice at home and with students in their homes. We received a comment on the podcast webpage. Dave said he has been listening for years. He points out that Minnesota citizens need a permit simply to purchase a handgun. He also notes that a carry permit isn’t required to defend yourself at home or at work. He still recommends getting one because the carry class helps gun owners learn their state laws. In addition to Dave, I also want to thank Roger for his help this week. Robyn- You can go to the iTunes store and subscribe to our podcast and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Edgewater, Illinois. Rob- First story- Are you armed in public? You are walking down the street before dawn on a weekday. Two cars stop in the street in front of you. Men get out of the cars and one man walks toward you. He is armed. He demands your possessions. You move to cover and present your firearm. Your attacker shoots at you and you shoot at him. He runs to the car and your attackers drive away. You stay at the scene and call 911 for help. You stay on the line with the dispatcher. You put your gun away as the police arrive. You give them a brief statement and then show them your ID. You also show them your Illinois concealed carry card. Police find blood on the street. Later, you find out that robbers using similar vehicles robbed two other victims on the street that morning. You are not charged with a crime. Robyn- Good for our defender for paying attention, and being prepared by already having a concealed carry card and a firearm. This means that he wasn’t just equipped with the tools, he had taken some training classes and really put some consideration into his personal safety. Plus, he was carrying on the street that morning when he was attacked. I love that our good guy had his head out of his earphones and was paying attention to what was happening around him. He saw his attack unfold. He presented his gun and moved. He defended himself and stopped shooting when the bad guys took off. He called for help. He met the police with empty hands. He gave a statement to the officers. Rob- Besides not being in Chicago, or not being there alone in the dark, what else would you like your students to do to be safer in a similar situation? Robyn- Maybe our defender could have done more to avoid being selected that morning. How was his walking gate or pace and his posture? Could he have had a flashlight in his support hand? Having one tool could have been a tell to the attackers that he also had other tools on board. He could also use the light to temporarily blind or distract the attacker, and to gain more information so that he can articulate his defensive actions and mindset. Also, I would like him to consider his preparedness and efficiency. Was he wearing gloves? Did he dry practice with the gloves on? Be sure that you practice how you live… make sure your finger fits into the trigger guard, or maybe choose to wear thin gloves when you carry. Rob- What classes usually come after you get your carry permit? Robyn-  Take a class where we use movement and cover as we shoot. Take a class where you get to shoot from new positions, like crouching, kneeling, sitting, or lying down. I also want you to take a class where you shoot in low light conditions. There were probably street lights, but it can be hard to see your sights, especially when you’re target focused Rob- Are there pre paid insurance plans that you like? Robyn-  Yes, given that this is Chicago, have a lawyer to call. There are a number of great options in the market these days. The Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network, US Law Shield, USCCA, Right to Bear. Do your research and select one (or more) that meet your needs. Rob-  Before we move on, I noticed that there are a couple of stories each week where licensed concealed carriers defend themselves in Chicago. Where is our next story? Robyn- Our second story happened in Houston, Texas What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) This defender had a plan. He wasn’t lucky, he was prepared for a possible attack. He had a gun, a permit and some training.  When he recognized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation his training kicked in. He moved (hopefully to cover) as he pulled his gun and defended himself against multiple attackers.  He stayed at the scene, called the police and met them with empty hands. He survived this attack because he was trained and equipped. Good job. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Carrying and using a flashlight properly can be just as important as carrying and using a gun. Sometimes it can be a deterrent and it can always help to identity your target.  Rob- Second Story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? It is just after midnight on a weekday. You’re expecting one of your family members to arrive home. You hear them arrive, and then you hear shouts outside. You look outside and see three men robbing your family member. You grab your gun and go outside. You shoot at your attackers. They shoot back as they run. Two of them drive away while the third one falls down. You check on your family and then call 911 for help. You put your gun away when the police arrive. They use a police dog to find your wounded attacker. You and your family give the police brief statements. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital. Your attacker is charged with aggravated robbery. You are not charged with a crime. Robyn- This is similar to the first story, but it happened late at night, at home, and there were more armed attackers. I love that a family member was looking out for someone arriving home. They saw a problem and then reacted to it. They had a firearm nearby so that they could help effectively. They also had a firearm that gave them enough rounds to be able to address multiple armed assailants. The good guys stopped shooting when the bad guys drove away. Rob- What else would you want us to do? Robyn- They story says that the victim was attacked as he was getting out of his car. The pictures of the home show a strong fence as if the home had livestock in the yard. That often means there is a gate, so make sure  you close the gate immediately so that strangers cannot approach our house. This makes me wonder if he was followed or if he could have made some different decisions. If he was going followed, could he have kept driving and not gone home? If a car was parked in front of the house with attackers planning an ambush, could he have kept driving and called the police? Maybe he called home or a neighbor and asked for more information. Another good option would be to add motion lights that light up the driveway and the side of the house when we arrive home. Let’s light up the porch as we get out of our car. And be mindful of HOW we get out of the car. Know areas of hard cover using your vehicle, how to bail out and get to cover, or when to stay in the vehicle, drive, or shoot from inside. We cover all of these techniques in our A Girl & A Gun DRIFT Academy course. And suppose you or your family member was wounded. Do you have first aid or trauma supplies and do you know how to use them?  All of that is way too much to figure out at midnight, so you and your family need a safety plan. Although these two stories were similar, think about how different their safety plans would be.  And, if nothing else, all responsible adults should have their permits, and be armed and trained. Did I say that?   Rob- You did now. Where are we going for our third news story?  Robyn- We’re headed to Salem, Indiana. Rob- First this message from the Crime Prevention Research Center. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender was situationally aware and responded when the family was in danger. The defender had a gun and it was nearby. A gun in a safe is useless when you need it for self-defense.  The defender stopped shooting when the attackers left. The defender checked on her family, called 911 and gave the police a statement. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Lights and cameras! Turn on lights. Add motion-activated lights and video cameras.  Transitional spaces- going from your car to a building puts you in a vulnerable position- be aware.  Use cover and concealment to your advantage.  Get the training and equipment to stop the bleeding from a gunshot wound to yourself and/or others. Cprc https://crimeresearch.org/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home? You let a friend sleep on your couch because he had problems with his girlfriend. Now your friend starts an argument in your home. He attacks your two female roommates. He attacks you and shatters a glass cabinet. You get your gun. The next time he attacks you, you shoot him. Now he stops so you stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for help. Your roommates apply first aid. Police and EMTs arrive. You put your gun away. You and your roommates meet the officers with empty hands. All of you give statements to the police about what happened. EMTs declare your attacker dead at the scene. Police also interview your neighbors to find out what they heard. You’re taken to the police station as detectives go over the reports. Your attacker was convicted of domestic violence. Your attacker had to leave his home after again attacking a domestic partner. You are released and not charged with a crime. The news reports don’t mention if you and your roommates needed medical attention. Robyn- With friends like this, who needs enemies? So I like that our defender had a gun to defend himself and his roommates. He stopped the repeated assaults in his home. He called for help and the roommates applied first aid. There were lots of witnesses and they each gave a statement to the officers. Rob- What else do you see in this story? Robyn- Don’t bring a person with a history of violence into your home. It isn’t safe for you or the other people you live with. Reading the story, we can’t tell if the attacker had a history of psychological problems or addiction, but what might have happened if the defender was not home when the attacker assaulted the roommates. If you know people like this in your life, make sure that your a safety plan addresses who we invite home. Think about how intoxicated or emotional someone can be before they are not allowed inside. Do you call the police? Do you put them up at a hotel? Do you lock the doors and don’t respond? Think through your options, what is realistic for your life, and how you can manage those relationships in a way that doesn’t put you or your roommates in danger. I said it before that I’d like all responsible adults to be armed so they can defend themselves and innocent people. This means that if you have irresponsible people or strangers in your home, then you need to have a secure place to store your firearm when it isn’t in a holster on your body. Rob- Was this a gun problem? Robyn- This is a lethal force problem that is primarily a disparity of force issue. A young adult man was beating up the women who lived in the home. As an adult male, you might stop him by going hand to hand, but maybe not if he is much larger or more skilled than you, and probably not if you are female. You have to be able to determine if you are faced with a lethal, immediate, and unavoidable threat, and you have to be able to articulate that what you did was the safest option. Rob- Should we treat an injured attacker? Robyn- Your heart may say yes, your lawyer might say maybe, and your firearms instructor says absolutely not. Your safety is your priority. The police won’t let the EMTs near the attacker until he is disarmed and handcuffed. Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Robyn- Our fourth story took place in Dothan, Alabama.  What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender was trying to help his so-called friend but that person turned out to be an attacker. The defender recognized that he and his roomates were in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation. The defender grabbed his gun and shot the attacker until the attack stopped. The defender called 911 and put his gun away when the police arrived.  The defender and the roomates all gave the police statements.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The roommates trying to stop the attacker’s bleeding wound put all of them in danger. Don’t approach an attacker until they are restrained and someone is covering them.  Did the defender know that his “friend” was convicted of domestic abuse? Be careful who you invite into your home.  Hopefully, the defender had his gun on his body or in a quick-access safe. If you own a gun, it must be under your control at all times.  Did the defender have another gun available? Most likely, his gun would be confiscated by the police as evidence for quite some time. The defender may need another gun in case of retaliation from the attacker’s friends or family.  “Two is one and one is none.” Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public? It is Saturday and you’re walking down the street. A man walks up beside you and asks you for help with his phone. Then he draws a gun and demands your purse. He grabs your purse and pulls on it. You present your firearm and shoot  at your attacker. He drops your purse and runs. You call 911 and ask for the police. You put your gun away when the police arrive. You give the officers a brief statement and point out witnesses. Other people called 911 when they heard shots. Police find your attacker nearby. They also find his gun. He was using a bb-gun to rob people. Your attacker is charged with first degree robbery and held on a 60-thousand dollar cash bail. You are not charged with a crime. Robyn- These situations happen in just an instant. She was looking down the barrel of a gun and kept her mind focused. The robber grabbed her purse, so that makes me think the armed defender had her firearm on her body so she could still reach it. She identified an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat so she was justified to use lethal force in her defense. The defender stopped shooting when the attacker was not a threat any longer. Rob- Is there anything else you’d like your students to do? Robyn- Practice your MUC and de-escalation skills. MUC is M-U-C, which is an acronym that stands for Managing Unknown Contacts. Craig Douglas from ShivWorks coined these techniques and Chuck Haggard from Agil Tactical also teaches this at our A Girl & A Gun National Conference. Have situational awareness and use your words as someone approaches you. This can help with the victim de-selection process and at best, the bad guy will just move on to the next person. At worst, it articulates your mindset and actions, and it creates good witnesses. Speak clearly, “No. I can’t help you.” and if he doesn’t leave, increase your intensity and volume. “Get away now!” Anyone who comes closer after you say that isn’t asking for help. They are a threat who is trying to get closer to you. That is when you prepare to defend yourself and potentially draw your gun and move to cover if necessary.  As you’re moving down the street, keep your head up so you see threats as they are approaching. That way you can escape before they are so close that they could grab you or your purse. Practice presenting your pistol from concealment while we’re wearing your work clothes, winter coat, winter gloves, and purse. Practice this at home without ammunition in the gun and no ammunition in the room at all.  It will take you about 15 minutes a night over several evenings for you to become consistent. Then, you can go to the range and practice live fire.  I’d like you to practice presentation where you bring the gun all the way up and use the sights. Bring the sights into your line of sights; don’t peek over the pistol. You want good, high center hits, not in the belly. You may also practice shooting from retention, but take a close-quarter class so you learn the proper technique. Our defender made one shot and missed her attacker. Then she stopped shooting. Shoot until the attacker is no longer a threat. Rob- When do your students learn to defend themselves from someone who is so close that the attacker can grab them or their gun? What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender had a gun with her and it was not in her purse. If the gun was in the purse, the defender would not have been able to get to it in time since the attacker yanked the purse off the defender’s shoulder. The defender fired one shot but missed. Fortunately, the attacker decided to run off rather than stay and fight. The called 911, gave police a brief statement and pointed out witnesses.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Situational Awareness: How big is your sphere of influence? The more you pay attention, the better armed and trained you are the larger your sphere becomes and the better your chances are of surviving an attack. Distance gives you time to react. It’s OK to be rude in public. The answer to every unsolicited question on the streets is “NO!” and walk away quickly. Criminals use innocent questions in order to get within your sphere of influence and to get you to lower your guard. That’s part of their “victim interview process”. You want to fail that interview. Do something unexpected so as to break their OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) loop. On the body carry: Carrying a gun and/or pepper spray on your body is the best way to insure that your self-defense tool(s) are readily available and under your control.  The defender probably missed because she didn’t know how to shoot from a retention position. Knowing how to shoot from a retention position and also how to shoot while moving to cover are more important than knowing how to get tight groups at a square range. You can practice these techniques using a “dry” gun, a laser gun or an airsoft gun. The attacker used a BB gun instead of a real gun but legally that doesn’t matter. A defender must assume that an imitation gun is real or even a “finger gun” in a pocket is real and act accordingly.  Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Robyn, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Robyn- Look for me at A Girl and a Gun dot org, and at and A Girl & A Gun on all of the social media pages. We have chapters all across the country. Rob- After you find a chapter of a girl and a gun near you, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. Robyn- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 338 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Andee Reardon. What has been keeping you so busy? Andee Reardon Andee- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been busy trying to catch up on work. Over the weekend I taught two women’s classes, basic pistol and the USCCA’s Women’s concealed carry and then Monday night we had Ladies’ night on the range at my local indoor shooting range where we get together. This weekend I’ll be teaching outdoors in the Maine elements so I’m praying for decent weather. I was in Boston last week and sadly had to leave my gun at home. I’m really glad to have it back. How about you? Rob- I was sick for most of December, then I was traveling overseas again. I carried when I got back in the US. It’s funny that I was waiting for the rain to stop so I could go for a run, and you were waiting for the snow to stop so you could go to the gym. I want to thank Roger for his help with the stories this week. I’d like you to help new listeners find us by going to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts. Tell new gun owners why you listen. Andee- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Katy, Texas. Rob- First story- Are you armed at home? You are at home in the middle of the morning on Sunday. You hear someone banging on your apartment door. One of your male roommates opens the door. A man and a woman force their way inside and attack your male roommate. Your roommate fights back. You grab your gun and shoot your two attackers. You stop shooting when they stop hitting your roommate. The woman falls down. The news reports aren’t clear if you called 911 or if your roommates did. Your neighbors also called 911 to report shots fired. You put your gun away before the police arrive. EMTs declare your female attacker dead at the scene. The male attacker is taken to the hospital for treatment of life threatening gunshot wounds. You and your roommates give statements to the police. There is another male and two children in the home. They are uninjured. You are not charged with a crime. Andee-  I like that one of the defenders owned a gun. She had it within reach when she needed it. She recognized that the several people who were beating her roommate posed an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat. She shot them until the threat stopped, then she stopped shooting. Someone called 911. The defender met the police with empty hands, and all of the roommates stayed at the scene and gave statements to the police. Rob- The good news is that there were witnesses. The bad news is that witnesses say things that can get us into trouble. What else do you want your students to do in a situation like this? Andee- I want all of you to form a plan. That includes children so they know not to open the door and let strangers into your home and they know where to hide for safety. You have the right to open the door, but it is almost always a bad plan. The bad guys outside are not a lethal threat until you open the door. Having a stationary weapon (doesn’t need to be a firearm) by the door so you have access to something if you’re fighting off someone coming through the door. If they’re trying to push their way through, some pepper spray or a hit from a blunt object might back them up enough to get the door shut and locked. But, I’d rather you not open it in the first place. You should be able to see on the other side of the door, by means of a peep hole, window or camera system. Preferably, a way to see out but keep others from seeing in. Having a safety plan in place with several people in the home means someone can call 911 even while the bad guys are outside beating on the door. Make that someone’s job so they know that they are the person who calls 911 and gets the police on the way. Being armed is part of the plan. An armed defender can yell that they are armed and that the police are on their way. Part of that safety plan is knowing what to say to police. All members of the household should be informed what they should and shouldn’t say while being questioned. Including, “I do not give permission to search my home, vehicle or person”. In this kind of situation, I want everyone to retreat away from the front door to another room (your safe room) while the defender is standing behind cover or concealment, yet where she can see the front doorway. Since there were children in the apartment, the defender’s gun should have either been on her body in a holster, or in a quick-access safe.  Rob- That is a lot to get right. When do your students learn about defending their home? Andee-  We talk about it a little bit in the beginners class since the majority of students are there for self defense reasons. But you have to crawl before you walk, get the basics down first. As students progress and take more advanced classes, we cover things like building your own personal safety plan, how to use effective cover and concealment, etc. Rob- Is there more you want to cover about this story, or should we go on? Andee- Our second story happened in Peoria, Illinois. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender owned a gun which was within quick reach when she needed it. The defender recognized that her roommate was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation because he was being attacked by two other people. The defender shot both attackers until they stopped hitting her roommate. The defender stopped shooting when the threat was over, stayed at the scene and called 911. The defender put her gun away when police arrived and gave them a statement. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Someone banging on your door is not a lethal threat until you either open the door which gives them access or until the door breaks and allows the attackers to enter. DON’T OPEN THE DOOR. There were a number of people in the apartment when the attackers started banging on the door. Any one of them could have called 911 while the defender who had a gun could have yelled through the door to the attackers that 911 had been called, that she was armed and that they should leave. The defender should have directed that everyone in the apartment retreat away from the door to another room while she took a defensive position behind cover or concealment in sight of the door in case the attackers broke the door down.  If the attacker were to break down the door then the defender should have fired on them while they were lined up in the “fatal funnel”.   Since there were children in the apartment, the defender’s gun should have either been on her body or in a quick-access safe.  Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public? You’re helping your friend buy a car. He sees a vehicle he likes on Facebook Marketplace. You go with him to look at the car after work. When you get to the location, you see two men waiting for you. They say the car is around the corner. There, you see three more men, and they have guns in their hands. You’re being robbed. You have a concealed carry license and you’re armed. Your attackers start shooting and you shoot back. Everyone runs. You and your friend are not wounded and you stay nearby. You call 911 and ask for help. Police and EMTs arrive and you put your gun away. The officers find one of your attackers nearby. He is wounded. EMTs try to save his life but then pronounce him dead at the scene. You and your friend give statements to the police. You show them  your Identification and your carry permit. Your friend shows them the Facebook advertisement. You are not charged with a crime, but the police suggest using the police parking lot to make exchanges. Andee- I like that the buyer brought a friend, there’s safety in numbers. Unfortunately, the bad guys had more numbers and often do. Sellers can be robbed of their property. Buyers can be robbed of their money. They made a plan since they were going to meet strangers in a strange place. The armed friend had his carry permit, owned a gun, and carried concealed. Good for both of them. I do wonder if they thought something felt off when they were told the vehicle was around the corner… that would seem suspicious to me. When in doubt, trust your gut. The defender recognized that they were being robbed, and that they faced a lethal threat even before the bad guys started shooting. He shot back and the good guys ran away. The victims called for help and gave statements to the police. Rob- There is a lot of information that isn’t covered in the news. Andee- Plan to meet where there are lights, cameras and witnesses. Ideally, meeting at a police station parking lot during the day might be the best plan. Don’t go alone. Ask a friend or two to go with you and if one or more of you are armed that would be great. Listen to your gut. Put some distance between you and your partner so you form two separate targets. Keep something like a car between you and the strangers. Do not bring cash. Ask one of your friends to record a picture or video of the people you’re meeting and their car’s license plate. Ideally, I want both of you to be armed.  Rob- This is beyond marksmanship. We want to move, present our firearm without pointing it at our partner, and then shoot multiple moving targets. We want to have done that enough times that it is a habit rather than a deliberate, step by step thought. How do I learn to do that? Andee- You can learn that through practice at home with an unloaded firearm and taking more advanced classes that teach shooting on the move. Rob- Where are we headed next?  Andee- Our third story happened in Grafton, Virginia. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender went with his friend when he was meeting with a stranger(s) to look at a car. The defender brought his carry license and his gun with him.  The defender and friend were in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when they were surrounded by armed robbers. The defender exchanged fire with the attackers and ran. Fortunately, he managed to shoot one of them without getting himself or his friend shot. Hopefully, the defender knew how to move and engage multiple targets. The defender stayed at the scene and gave police a statement.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Meeting a stranger to buy or sell items can be very dangerous so the proper precautions need to be taken. Arrange to meet where there are lights, cameras and witnesses. Ideally, meeting at a police station parking lot during the day might be your best bet. Don’t go alone. Ask a friend or two to go with you and if one or more of you are armed that would be great.  Don’t stand together so you make yourselves more difficult targets. Keep some objects, like a car, between you and the stranger.  DON’T BRING CASH! Ask one of your friends to record a video of the people you’re meeting and their car’s license plate. This story took place in Peoria, Illinois. That state does not recognize any other state’s carry permit and they don’t have out-of-state concealed carry licenses. They also have a FOID card requirement which is a “Firearm Owners Identification” card which means it’s illegal for an out-of-stater to even possess a firearm in that state. According to the news report, the defender in this story was from out of state so he was not carrying legally. He may or may not be charged with possession and carrying a concealed weapon which in some states is a felony. KNOW THE LAWS WHERE YOU LIVE AND WHERE YOU TRAVEL.  Rob- First this message from the FASTER saves lives. FASTER saves lives https://fastersaveslives.org/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work? You’re behind the counter at a gas station/ convenience store. It is about 9 AM and the morning rush is over. Another customer walks in and pushes his way behind the counter. He says this is a robbery. You let him have the money. Now the robber pushes you toward the back bathroom. You’re armed. You present your concealed firearm and shoot your attacker twice. Your first shot hits him in the leg and your second shot hits him in the abdomen. He stops pushing you and you stop shooting. You step away and call 911 for help. You talk to the dispatcher and ask for police and Emergency Medical Services. You stay on the line, but have to put your phone down when you put your gun away. You give a statement to the police when they arrive. EMS takes your attacker to the hospital for treatment. You have to close the store for the rest of the day as the police collect evidence at the scene. When your attacker is released from the hospital, he is held without bond in the county jail. He is charged with robbery, abduction by force, possession of stolen property, and also charged with grand larceny from an earlier incident. You are not charged with a crime. Andee- Our defender recognized that he was all alone in a store that is frequently targeted by robbers. He planned ahead by purchasing and carrying a gun on his body at work. The defender let the robber take the money out of the register. He used “Tactical Patience” and waited his turn before acting. The defender held his fire until the robber tried to force him into the back bathroom. Robbers move us to a new location because they don’t want to be seen. That is our signal that the fight is on. Never allow yourself to be forced to a new location, the chances of survival drop down as soon as you do. The news report said that the police were unable to find a weapon at the scene. Even if the robber did not have a weapon and only pretended to hold a gun in his pocket, the act of forced relocation is kidnapping which usually allows for the use of deadly force. The defender stopped shooting after getting two hits on the bad guy, and the robber stopped pushing him to the back of the store. Our defender stepped away from the robber. Distance and cover are your friends. The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and stayed on the line, put the gun away and gave a statement to the police.  Rob- What else do you see in this story? Andee- This is called close quarters defense where the bad guy is close enough to grab us or grab our gun. It also explains why the bad guy was shot in the leg and the stomach. We have to push the bad guy away so we have room to reach our gun, but that also means our support hand can get between our gun and the bad guy. That takes practice so we don’t shoot ourselves. I give classes in close quarters defense, and that usually comes a few classes after your concealed carry permit. Once the robber was on the floor and no longer a threat, the defender should have moved all the customers away from the windows and locked the doors so the robber’s friends couldn’t get into the store. I want you to know how to stop the bleeding if your or a customer were injured. Your business needs a first aid kit. And in that kit should be a tourniquet.  There are generally two types of criminals. The Resource Predators want your stuff like money, cars, jewelry, or credit cards. They want to grab your stuff and run. Process Predators enjoy inflicting pain and humiliation. They want to make you vulnerable and hurt you. The problem is that you can’t tell which is which. Finally, there should have been security video in the store. Employees need to know how to save and transfer those video files to the police and to your lawyer. If you’re going to carry a gun at work then you need a lawyer to call so he fills out your police report for you. Rob- Do you talk about that in your use of force classes? Andee-  Yes, it’s very important. Buying and training with a gun is only part of concealed carry. The other part is knowing how to keep yourself safe morally, financially and legally. Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Andee- Our fourth story took place Near Austin, Texas. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender worked at a very dangerous job. He planned ahead by purchasing and carrying a gun on his body at work. If the gun was placed under the counter the defender may not have been able to get to it in time or the robber may have taken the gun first.  The defender let the robber take the money out of the register. He used “Tactical Patience” and waited his turn before acting. The defender held his fire until the robber tried to force him into the back bathroom. The news report said that the police were unable to find a weapon at the scene. Even if the robber did not have a weapon and only pretended to hold a gun in his pocket, the act of forced relocation is probably kidnapping which usually allows for the use of deadly force. The defender stopped shooting after two hits and the robber stopped pushing him to the back. The defender stepped away from the robber. Distance and cover are your friends. The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and stayed on the line, put the gun away and gave a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender complied with the robber until the robber tried to force him into the back room. The odds of surviving a forced relocation are very low. The only reason a criminal relocates you is so he can do something to you that he can’t do where you are. THIS SHOULD BE YOUR LINE IN THE SAND! Once the robber was on the floor and no longer a threat, the defender should have moved all customers away from the windows and locked the doors so the robber’s friends couldn’t get in.  Did the defender know how to stop the bleeding if a customer or himself had been injured or shot? Did the store have a first aid kit? Did the defender know how to hold the robber at gunpoint without putting himself in further danger? Did the store have security cameras? Sometimes they can act as a deterrent as well as record the incident.  Criminals come in two types: Resource Predators and Process Predators. The Resource Predators want your stuff like money, cars, jewelry. Process Predators enjoy inflicting pain and humiliation. The problem is that you can’t tell which is which from just looking at them. Sometimes it’s too late when you finally figure it out.  Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at home? You’re in your front yard pulling weeds in the middle of the morning. A stray pitbull runs up to you. You don’t know the dog and he doesn’t have any tags. You retreat to your garage and the dog follows you. You try to shoo the dog out of your garage with a broom, but that doesn’t work. You grab a hatchet, and use the blunt side of the hatchet to frighten the dog. He moves toward you and you retreat into your home through the garage door. The stray pitbull pushes past you to enter your home. He bites your dog and then drags your dog to your bedroom. You grab your gun from the nightstand and shoot the pitbull twice at the base of his skull. Now he lets go of your dog. You call 911 and your veterinarian. After the police arrive, you take your dog to the vet’s office. He was at the office for three days before you got him back. Andee- I like that the defender climbed the ladder of force. She tried to push the attacking dog away twice. Each time the defender increased the amount of force she used until she had to use lethal force. Most states allow the use of deadly force against a dog that is attacking other animals or humans. Again, we have to know the laws in our state. The defender was able to shoot the attacking dog twice without hitting her own dog, and that can be hard to do. It is another version of close quarters contact where you might have to grab your attacker so you move with them as you shoot. The defender called 911 so the police could find the pitbull’s owner. Rob- We generally want to call 911 any time we had to touch our gun in anger. It is better to call and find out they are not interested than to have someone else call. What else do you see? Andee- Our defender didn’t have her gun when she was out in public. That is a problem if her dog was attacked or if she was attacked in her front yard. Carry on your body so your defensive tools are with you when you need them.  Maybe she should have been carrying pepper spray too. It’s a great tool and since it’s non-lethal, you don’t have to wait until last minute to have it ready. As trivial as this sounds, I want you to call your lawyer even if the attacker is a dog. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender tried to push the attacking dog away twice without success. Each time the defender increased the amount of force she used until she had to use lethal force. Most states allow the use of deadly force against a dog that is attacking other animals or humans. The defender was able to shoot the attacking dog twice without hitting her own dog. The defender called 911 so the police could find the attacking dog’s owner. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) On the body carrying is the quickest way to access your firearm. Anyone, anywhere and anytime you can be attacked by four-legged, two-legged or even no-legged (snakes) predators. The defender was very fortunate that the dog did not attack her in her yard since she wasn’t carrying her gun with her. The outcome may have been quite different.  A gun is not always the legal or the most appropriate self-defense tool. According to the FBI, you are five times more likely to need a non-lethal weapon as opposed to a firearm. KNOW THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE LAWS.  Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Andee, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Andee- Look for me at East Coast School of Safety and on my facebook and Instagram pages with the same name. Rob- After you look at Andee articles and classes, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. Andee- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_   Apple categories- news commentary, self-improvement    

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 337 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor David Cole. What has been keeping you so busy? David- Hi, Rob. I’ve been doing a little hunting (not enough), testing out my new chronograph of the range, and a bit of dry fire practice. How about you? Rob- I’ve been dry practicing. I also want to thank Roger for his help this week. We received some messages from people who will write for us, so that was my Christmas present. David- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Denver, Colorado. Rob- First story- Are you armed in public? You and your girlfriend are taking your kids to the museum. It is the middle of the weekday afternoon when you park your car and start to unload your kids. You see two young men run toward you. They are armed and have guns in their hands. One of them hits you in the back of the head. You’re armed as well. You present your firearm and shoot at your attackers. They run. They also shoot at you as they run across the parking lot. You stop shooting and check on your family. No one is wounded. You call 911 and ask for help. You stay at the scene. You and your girlfriend give statements to the police. You describe your attackers, their clothing, and their get-away car. Police arrest your attacker when he is dropped off at the hospital. Unfortunately, the officers don’t stop the car that drops him off. Your attacker is charged with four counts of attempted first-degree murder, two counts of felony menacing, and attempted aggravated robbery. David-  I’m glad that our defender recognized that we all face risks when we’re out in public. It sounds like he put together a plan that included carrying a firearm when he was out with his family. He recognized a threat. He defended himself. He stopped shooting when the bad guys stopped shooting. He checked on his family. They stayed at the scene and called for help. They couple met the police officers with empty hands. They both gave statements to the police. Rob- That is a lot to get right. What else do you see that wasn’t mentioned in the news reports? David- A plan begins with your family. What can they contribute? Have you walked through the plan with them and taken their ideas? Have you sought out first aid training? How about firearms safety training? Do all the adults have their carry permits? Have they trained together? Have they taken an armed defense class together, and a legal use of lethal force class together? I bring up those issues because going to the store and buying a gun is the easy part. You can buy a gun in a half hour. Becoming skilled in its use as a tool of armed defense takes some effort. I want the couple to pay attention so they have an opportunity to avoid an attack. I’m glad that the robbers missed, but I want the defender to be better at hitting his target and stopping the threat. This was probably a busy area given the location and time of day, so the risk of hitting innocent bystanders would be high. All shots hit something! Rule 4 applies in gunfights as well as the range. The parking lot is a transition area where you’re changing your activities. Work as a team so that one of you is looking around as the other is getting a child ready for the museum. Once your partner is ready, then they become the lookout as you work on your side of the car. If you see a threat and shout stop, then the kids have to know to get down and your partner has to know to draw their gun and get behind cover. Most criminals will turn and run rather than walk into a gunfight. Rob- I noticed that both bad guys were armed and had their guns out. David- I saw that too. While it is essential to carry at least one spare magazine or speed loader, having an armed partner who knows how to work with you can be a great force multiplier. Rob- I noticed that the bad guys were shooting at the family as the bad guys ran away. That means the defender might shoot the bad guy in the back as he runs. David- That could happen. The important point is that you know the law and can articulate why innocent people were at an immediate risk and that shooting the fleeing robber was the safest thing to do. Both of you need that knowledge so that you are both acting consistently and within the law. More to the point, you want a lawyer available to advise you before you give a formal statement to the police. Rob- Is there more you want to cover in this story, or should we go on? David- It’s a good start. Our second story happened in Reeds Spring, Missouri. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender wanted to protect his family so he chose to carry a gun when he took his family to a museum. In some states, carrying a gun in a museum or even in the parking lot of a museum is a crime since that area is considered a “sensitive place.” Know the laws in your area. If you can’t carry your gun with you, should you take your family there? Do a risk assessment.  The defender held his fire until he was struck. Perhaps he should have fired sooner like when he first saw the two men running at him with guns in their hands. Watch the hands- they’re what kills. Know the laws about the Use of Deadly Force. You don’t have to wait to be shot or stabbed in order to defend yourself or others. The defender shot at the fleeing bad guys who were shooting at him as they fled. As long as the fleeing bad guys were presenting a threat he is allowed to keep shooting. When the threat stops, the shooting stops. The defender stayed at the scene, checked on his family and gave descriptions and a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The attackers got close enough to the defender in order to hit him in the head. Could the defender have drawn his gun as he moved to cover? Did the defender know how to shoot from a retention position? Did the defender know to move away from his family while he engaged in a gunfight? The bad guys are going to shoot at the guy with the gun and if the unarmed family members are near the defender they may get shot.  How many rounds of ammo did the defender have? The news article stated that the attackers had extended magazines which are illegal in Colorado. They were ready and willing to get into a gunfight. Was the defender sufficiently prepared? Colorado limits the ammo capacity to 15 rounds per magazine but it doesn’t limit carrying additional mags or a back-up gun. Attackers are like wolves- they come in packs.   Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home?   You and your family are at home on a Saturday evening. It is about 10:30 when you hear someone outside. Your wife calls 911 and asks for help. You go out on your front porch to see if someone needs help. A stranger crawls through the woods and shouts at you. You tell him that help is on the way and to stay away. The stranger rushes you and grabs you. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker. He lets go of you so you stop shooting. You and your wife give statements to the police when they arrive. The 911 recording includes your shouts for the attacker to stop and move away. A toxicology report shows that the attacker was on methamphetamine at the time of the attack. Several of his prior criminal convictions involve drug use. You are not charged with a crime. David- I like that the couple worked as a team. They paid attention to an unusual situation and got law enforcement on the way immediately. The male homeowner grabbed a gun for self defense. He stayed on his porch rather than go exploring in the woods in the middle of the night. The defender also gave clear verbal commands as he tried to de-escalate the situation. The defender stopped the attacker from taking his gun. He stopped shooting when the attacker moved away. The defenders stayed at the scene. The defender put his gun away and met the officers with empty hands. They also gave preliminary statements to the officers. Rob- Why was it so important that the defender said something before he was attacked? David- Verbal commands can accomplish several things. They can potentially de-escalate a situation or discourage an attacker. They keep us breathing during a stressful event. And they can contribute to our self defense justification by creating witnesses and evidence which aid our case. We have a 911 recording where the defender says he has help on the way and to not come any closer. Your lawyer is going to point out that If the attacker had taken that advice, then the situation would never have escalated to a violent encounter. Rob- What do you see as best practice for us if we hear something outside at night? David- You want a plan so you and your family know what to do and are not making life and death decisions when you’re half asleep. Plan to have the doors and windows locked. I honestly would have preferred that the family had stayed inside the house and called the police. Turn on the outside lights. Plan for both of you to be armed. Make the bad guys break their way into your house. You might be out the cost of a door, but you’re going to save tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills, not to mention possibly avoid having to take a life. You also want a lawyer to call so they get your defense started. Rob- I need a lawyer even though a druggie attacked me?   David- Yes you do. We’ve all seen cases of self defense where, even if there’s no criminal charges, the family pursues a civil case against the defender. His ex wife might now see you as a way to pay her bills for the next ten years. Rob- Where are we going for our next story? David- Our third story happened in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender and his wife recognized a potentially dangerous situation.  The defender grabbed his gun while his wife called 911. The defender shouted to the stranger that help was on their way while the phone was recording the 911 call.  The defender stopped shooting as soon as the threat was over. The defender gave a brief statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) It was 10:30 at night. Did the defender turn on any exterior flood lights or use a flashlight? Many times just the use of bright lights  can stop an attack. Why did the defender leave the relative safety of his home? Distance and cover are your best friends. Don’t give strangers the opportunity to attack.  Did the defender know how to shoot from a retention position? Always make the attacker come to you. This is both tactically and legally sound.  Call 911 as soon as you can and leave the phone line open so they can record what’s going on. The 911 dispatcher is not a cop and you don’t have to do what the dispatcher says. Their job is to gain information and relay it to the responders for THEIR SAFETY, not yours. The 911 dispatchers aren’t on the scene. You are your own first responder until professional help arrives. That means that you have to know how to put out a fire, stop a wound from bleeding and defend yourself from attackers. The more you learn, the better your chances of survival. Being attacked is a traumatic event and in this case the attacker died from his wounds. The defender is not only going to need a good lawyer but probably also a good therapist. The aftermath of a shooting event can last for years.  Rob- First this message from  JPFO.org JPFO http://jpfo.org/ Rob- Third story- Are You Armed at Home?   You are home alone on a Monday night. You hear your ex-boyfriend at the back door of the apartment. Fortunately, your doors and windows are locked. You arm yourself and shout for him to go away. He kicks down your back door and then your front door as he is looking for you. You stay inside the apartment and shoot him when he comes inside. You stop shooting when he runs. You stay inside and wait. After a minute, you call 911 and ask for the police. You put your gun away and give a statement to the officers when they arrive. Police arrest your attacker at the hospital. He is treated for a gunshot wound to the abdomen. He is also arrested for an outstanding warrant. You are not charged with a crime. David- I like that our defender chose to own a firearm for self-defense. She recognized that her ex boyfriend put her at an increased risk of violent attack. I love that she locked her doors and windows. That forced her boyfriend to break into her home. I looked at the area on Google Street View, and it is full of small homes and duplexes, so it probably created a number of ear witnesses who heard him break down your doors. I like that she stayed inside her home. She shot her attacker rather than let him get close to her, and she stayed inside as her attacker ran away. She called for help. She put her gun away when the police arrived, and she gave the police a statement. Rob- Are there other things you want your students to do if they have a domestic abuse situation? David- Let’s add some motion lights on our front and back door. Let’s add some security cameras and an alarm system. Let’s also get a restraining order so it is clear that your ex was supposed to stay away from you. The process will vary from state to state, but in Pennsylvania it appears to be as simple as going to the county courthouse, completing a petition, and possibly speaking to a judge. If you can afford an attorney to advise you, that makes it even easier, and most police officers can also advise you on how the process works. Rob- What should a defender do if an ex breaks down her door? David- In most cases, the best practice would be to seek another location in your home where you can barricade yourself while waiting for police. I’d like a defender to have all the lights in the house on if possible, and to issue verbal commands. Let them know you’re armed and that police are on the way. If you have 911 on the line, everything is recorded and this will be evidence that you did everything possible to avoid confrontation. If that confrontation comes, try to be positioned behind as much cover as possible and shoot to stop the threat. Rob- In the earlier story you said it was an advantage that we shouted for the bad guy to go away. Wouldn’t it be better to stay quiet and try to avoid being found? David- That’s a valid point, and it may be. You can certainly make that case, and I wouldn’t say you are wrong. I tend to lean towards being clear and vocal, but the situation may call for silence and hiding. I think it is very much a judgment call by the defender, considering the layout of their home and the nature of the attack. I’d just consider how likely it is that hiding will enable us to avoid the attack altogether. For example, if the house is small, it may be unrealistic to expect to be able to hide for long. A larger or more complex floor plan might make hiding a better option. But if attack is likely unavoidable, barricading with verbal commands may be better. Rob- Where are we going for our last story? David- Our fourth story took place in Akron, Ohio. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender recognized that her ex-boyfriend was “hunting” her after he broke down her front and back doors. She armed herself and shouted for him to leave. Then she hid. The defender shot the ex-boyfriend before she let him get close to her.  The defender stopped shooting when the attacker ran away.  The defender called 911 and gave a statement to the police. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender had prepared for her ex-boyfriend’s attack.  The defender had purchased a gun and locked the doors and windows. The defender should have obtained a restraining order as well. It won’t stop an attack but it lays the legal foundation for a self-defense claim.  The defender should have called 911 as soon as the first door was broken down. The sooner you call for help the sooner it arrives. Also, the 911 call records what’s going on. This provides evidence of your self-defense claim. The defender wisely hid and made the ex-boyfriend come to her. The defender shot the attacker before he was able to get close enough to take her gun from her.  Rob- Fourth story- Are You Armed at Work? You’re working behind the counter at a fastfood restaurant. It is late Monday night when another pair of customers comes inside. One of the customers draws a gun and demands the money from the cash register. It isn’t clear from the news story which employee handed over the money. After he received the cash, the robber started shooting. You’re armed. You present your handgun and shoot back. Your attackers run. You stop shooting when they are gone. You stay inside the store. It isn’t clear who checks on the other employees and who calls 911. You put your gun away when the police arrive. You and the other employees give statements to the officers. You also show them your identification. Police identify the two robbers when they arrive at the hospital. One is treated for a gunshot wound to the upper body. Both are arrested for armed robbery. David- Note that the bad guys started shooting after they got the money. I’m glad the defender was armed at work. He recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to innocent victims. He waited his turn and then used his legally carried firearm to stop the threats. He did not chase the bad guys down the street but stayed inside the store. He also put his firearm away before the police arrived. Rob- The news story doesn’t explain what happened. What should we do? David- You and your co-workers need a safety plan. You want everyone who is not at the cash register to get to a secure position at the back of the store. You want a panic button so the police know you’re being robbed. You want to be behind cover and to protect your colleagues from the attacker. If possible, you don’t want to draw your firearm while the bad guys can see you. You want to put several shots on each attacker, starting with the closest and immediate threat first. Rob- That is only the beginning of the story. David- Check on your co-workers and customers. Get them to safety. Turn off the lights in the front of the store and lock the doors. See if anyone needs to be treated for cuts from flying glass. Ask all of them to call 911 so the police have a record of who was in the store. All of that goes a lot smoother if you practice it with your co-workers ahead of time. Rob- When would your students learn about a safety plan at work? David- Beyond concealed carry.  Rob- Cover and concealment. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender recognized that working in a fast food place can be dangerous. Any place with a cash register is a potential target. The defender had a gun with him at work when the attackers opened fire after they got the money. He was able to shoot back and probably saved lives. The defender “waited his turn” and fired back at the attackers. The defender stopped shooting after the attackers ran off. The defender did not pursue the attackers. The defender gave a statement to the police. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The more employees that are armed, the safer it is for all of them- especially if they have a plan. Every employee needs to know what to do if someone attempts a robbery: move to cover, call 911, turn off the lights, lock the doors, check to see if anyone is bleeding.  Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. David, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? David- Look for my articles at deltabravocharlie.com My latest article is about changes in the NRA management, and another article about a chronograph that works every time. Rob- After you look at Dave articles and his videos, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. David- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 336 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Heather Reeves. What has been keeping you so busy since we talked? Heather Reeves Heather- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been enjoying the last few weeks of crazy holiday madness with family and friends, and learning new software to help edit my podcast, Everyday Carry Chicks. How about you? Rob- I’ve been shooting my new firearm that I got back from ATEi in Michigan. I’ve been listening to your podcast. While you were busy recording your podcast, our show received new ratings and comments on iTunes. Chester said this was an amazing resource, and he likes that it is free. Another listener said he learns how fast these events can happen and we help him develop plans for self-defense.  I also want to thank Roger for his help again this week. Dwayne sent in a story. Thank you, Dwayne. We also had some people ask about writing for the podcast, so that was my Christmass present. Heather- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on the episode webpage. Our first story took place last week in Greenfield, Indiana. Rob- First story- Are you armed as you drive? It is very clear that this story was taken from a police report. We know the incident happened in a car, but we know neither whose car it was nor who was  driving. We know you were in a car with your ex-boyfriend. You have a restraining order out against him. That means it is a crime for him to deliberately come within several hundred feet of you. It is about 1 in the morning. Your ex-boyfriend hits you. You tell him to stop. You present a firearm and shoot him when he doesn’t. Now he stops and runs away. You drive to a nearby business and ask for help. It isn’t clear if you had to drive in another car or if you were originally driving your own car. You call the police and stay at the business until they arrive. You give the officers a statement. The officers find your attacker and arrest him. They apply emergency first aid until Emergency Medical Technicians arrive. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound to his arm. He is arrested upon release from the hospital and is now in jail without bond. He was recently arrested for a parole violation. You are not charged with a crime. Rob- Heather, what did our defender do correctly? Heather-  Abusers try to make their victims think that abuse is normal. Our defender thought that she faced an unusual risk from her ex. She got a restraining order. She bought a firearm and learned how to use it. Last year Indiana became a constitutional carry state, so she neither needed a carry permit nor did she have to wait for one. She recognized that it was an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat when an adult man was punching her as she sat in her car. She defended herself until the threat ran away. She drove to a safe location and asked for help. She talked to the police. She took them back to the scene and showed them what happened to her. Rob- This story leaves us with several questions. Who was driving and why or how did the defender let her attacker into her car. Heather- We don’t know if the attacker kidnapped her. You want your firearm on your body so it is there when you need it. If you’re in a car, you don’t wait until you see a car crash about to happen to put your seatbelt on. Your gun should be treated the same way. If you want to be able to use it, you must have it on you. If you ever take out a restraining order and have to meet your abuser, then we want you to do so with lots of witnesses you brought with you. Preferably big armed men who also have pepper spray in their pocket. Rob- Is there more you want to cover on this story, or should we go on? Heather- Let’s go to Chicago, Illinois for our second story. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender realized that her ex-boyfriend was a possible danger to her and she wisely took out a restraining order on him. The defender also had a gun near her in the car when the ex-boyfriend assaulted her. She realized that she was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation and she shot the ex-boyfriend in order to stop the beating. After the ex-boyfriend ran off, the defender drove away to gain some distance / safety, called 911 when she stopped and gave the police a statement.   What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Did the defender originally let the ex-boyfriend in her car willingly or was she kidnapped? If she let the “ex” in her car willingly, she used very poor judgment and she put herself into a very dangerous position tactically. It’s not unusual for battered women to keep going back to their abusers even after they are repeatedly beaten and emotionally abused. The abusive boyfriends become masters of manipulation and they temporarily convince the women that they are sorry and that they won’t hit them again. The abusers can be very charming until the tensions and anxiety build up and they finally lash out again. It’s a vicious cycle.  If the ex-boyfriend had kidnapped her, the police would have charged him with that. The restraining order probably was not violated if the woman allowed the ex-boyfriend to get near her.  The defender should have brought a friend or two with her when she and the ex-boyfriend met. Or they should have met in a very public place and driven there separately. The defender should have had a non-lethal option with her as well as a gun.  Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public? It is late on a Saturday afternoon. You are approached by four teenagers as you walk down the street. They are armed and tell you to hand everything over. Your wallet has an Illinois Firearms Owners ID card inside. You have a gun on your hip. You present your firearm and shoot the armed attacker who is closest to you. The three other attackers run. You call 911 and stay at the scene. You put your gun away before the police arrive. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital where he is pronounced dead from a gunshot wound to the chest. You show the police your identification and your carry permit. You are 68 years old. Your attacker was 19. You are not charged with a crime. Heather-  The 68 year old defender realized that he was a potential target of violent crime, especially in his neighborhood. He took the time, the money and he made the effort to get his carry license. That’s neither cheap nor easy in Chicago. The defender presented his gun and fired it when he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation where he was being robbed by four, armed teenagers. The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and then gave a statement to the police. Rob- Are there other things that weren’t mentioned in the news story? Heather- There are a lot of things that weren’t mentioned in the story. In general, we want to avoid drawing our gun when another person already has their gun pointed at us, so we don’t know what the older man did to avoid getting shot. We can wait for a distraction, create a distraction, or move as we draw. Ideally, we’d move to cover. Rob- It seems this defender only shot once. Heather- You want to shoot the closest attacker and then start on the next closest attacker. You can keep shooting until they are out of range or until you can retreat to cover. Then again, we don’t know what was behind the bad guys, so maybe our defender was saving lives by not shooting. Rob- Does that mean I might have to shoot an unarmed attacker who has his back to me? Heather- It might. The three of them could turn around and kill you, so you need to stay observant of the situation until they are so far away that you could stop them one at a time.  Rob- When do you tell your students about those sort of legal details in armed defense? Heather- We start covering legal with our Concealed Handgun class, and never really stop. When it comes down to it, there is a legal component to every class we teach, because with each course, students get a bit more detail and are ready to hit the different high and low points of what the legalities of using force to defend your life are. You also want a pre-paid legal plan so your lawyer covers the important points in your police statement. Your lawyer can decide if he wants to make a statement to the press. You don’t. Rob-  Where are we going for our next story? Heather- We are headed to Fort Worth, Texas. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The 68 year old defender realized that he was a potential target, especially where he lived. He took the time, the money and he made the effort to get his carry license. That’s neither cheap nor easy in Chicago.  The defender presented his gun and fired it when he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation where he was being robbed by four, armed teenagers. The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and gave a statement to the police. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The story isn’t clear how the defender was able to draw and fire his gun before four, armed teenagers did. Did he use “tactical patience” or distractions? Did he fire from a retention position since he was probably very close to his robbers? The defender only shot one of the armed teenagers. He’s very lucky that the other three, armed teenagers decided to flee rather than stay and shoot at him. Did the defender know how to engage multiple attackers? The news report for this incident was extremely biased. It called the armed, teenage attacker a “victim” and the 68 year old defendant “the shooter”. Unfortunately in many parts of this country, the media tries self-defense cases online and in the papers long before they ever see a courtroom.  Rob- First this message from the Second Amendment Foundation. Second Amendment Foundation https://www.saf.org/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home? And here https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12897077/Texas-woman-shot-dead-teenager-break-fort-worth.html It is just after noon when you hear someone try to open one of the windows in your house. You and your four daughters are at home. You grab your gun. You think there are several people outside your home and you shout for them to leave. You call 911 and ask for the police. The police arrive and you give them a statement. The officers take photographs and then leave. A half hour later, you hear someone force the window open in your four year old daughter’s bedroom. The intruder starts to enter your home and you shoot him. Again you call 911 for help. Police find a man outside. He has a bullet wound to the chest. EMTs pronounce him dead at the scene. Again, you give the police a statement. You are not charged with a crime, but you get an eviction notice from the property management company that manages the apartments. They say to call the corporate office. The corporate office says to contact the local managers. You have to find a new place for you and your family to live. Heather- Our defender’s apartment was broken into a few months earlier when the family wasn’t at home. The defender recognized a threat and bought a firearm to defend her family. During the first attempted break-in that day, the defender successfully used verbal commands to stop multiple home intruders. Great job. During the second attempted break-in that day, the defender shot the teenager who was forcing the window open. The armed mom again called 911 and again gave a statement to the police. Well done.  Rob- What else would you like us to do? Heather- Texas is a Constitutional Carry state, so the defender didn’t need a Texas License to Carry. I want her to get one anyway because it shows the police that you have a clean criminal record. It identifies you as one of the good guys who carry a gun. Texas is also a Castle Doctrine state so the defender is not required to retreat inside her home. Some states do not have Castle Doctrine so you have to know the laws in your state. Some states require that an intruder must be completely inside the four walls of the home in order to justify the use of deadly force. Take a class on the Use of Deadly Force in your state. Also, our defender should consult a lawyer concerning keeping a gun in a subsidized rental property. There have been a number of lawsuits concerning this. You don’t give up your rights, particularly in Texas, if you get a rent subsidy. Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Heather- Our fourth story took place in Houston, Texas. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender had multiple home break-ins and she decided to buy a gun. During the first attempted break-in that day, the defender successfully used verbal commands to stop multiple home intruders. During the second attempted break-in that day, the defender shot the teenager forcing the window open. The defender called 911 and gave a statement to the police both times. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Texas is a Castle Doctrine state. The defender is not required to retreat in states that have Castle Doctrine. Some states do not have Castle Doctrine. Some states require that an intruder must be inside the four walls of the home in order to use deadly force. Some states do not require this. KNOW THE LAWS IN YOUR STATE. Take a class on the Use of Deadly Force or consult a lawyer.  The defender should consult a lawyer concerning keeping a gun in a subsidized rental property. There have been a number of lawsuits concerning this.  The defender gave an interview with local media- not a good idea. Did she consult her lawyer first? Probably not. Giving detailed statements and interviews to the media and even to the police is the job of a self-defense lawyer.  Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at home? You hear someone knocking on your door. It is almost 8 in the morning on a Saturday. You are not expecting visitors. You go to the door armed. You hear a woman calling for you to open the door. You open the door and the strange woman attacks you. You step back and defend yourself. Finally, you present your firearm and shoot your attacker. Now she stops hitting you and you stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for help. You put your gun away when the police arrive. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. You are not charged with a crime. Heather- I like that the defender owned a firearm and had it nearby when they were at home. Ideally, it was on his body in a holster. I like that the defender’s windows and doors were locked. I like that he had the gun with him when he answered the door. He forced the criminal to climb the ladder of deterrence. Our defender tried to push her back outside. He tried to hit her after she hit him. Finally, he had to use his firearm to stop the attack. The defender stopped shooting when the attacker stopped hitting him. He called 911, stayed at the scene, and gave the police a statement.  Rob- What else do you see here? Heather- Most deliberate criminals are intoxicated when they commit a burglary or robbery. We don’t know if this attacker was a criminal or if she was drunk or drugged from the night before. We know we don’t want to open the door. You can talk through a closed door without standing directly in front of the door. Criminals have been known to shoot through closed doors so we want to stand to the side with a phone in our hand and the gun in the holster. I also want you to have an outside security camera or a doorbell camera. Bonus points if you have one that has a speaker in it for two way communication with the person at the door. If someone claims to need help, then offer to call the police, call for a tow truck, call a friend, but don’t open the door and hand them your phone. Be prepared to defend yourself if an attacker kicks down your door. Carry your gun at home and learn how to shoot from a retention position. Reinforce the lock and hinges of your entrance door with longer screws that go into the wood framing, not just into the door jamb. Again for bonus points, Install hurricane film on all glass windows within reach of the door lock. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Fortunately, the defender was armed when they answered the door. The defender was able to fight off the attacker and eventually shoot the attacker. The defender stopped shooting when the attacker stopped hitting them. The defender called 911 and gave the police a statement.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) DON’T OPEN THE DOOR!! Never open the door to anyone you don’t know or trust. Answer a call at your door from a window or talk through a closed door without standing directly in front of the door. Criminals have been known to shoot through closed doors so stand to the side.  The defender was inconsistent- they were cautious enough to have a gun with them when they answered the call but they opened the door anyway! Install a security camera or a doorbell camera. If someone claims to need help, offer to call the police, towtruck, friend, etc. for them. Don’t open the door and hand them your phone.  Be prepared to defend yourself if an attacker kicks down your door. Carry your gun at home and learn how to shoot from a retention position.  Reinforce the lock and hinges of your entrance door with longer screws that go into the wood framing, not just the door jamb. Install hurricane film on all glass windows within reach of the door lock.  Keep your windows/doors locked and carry your handgun with you at home. If your gun is not within arm’s length it’s useless. A small handgun in your pocket is worth more than a dozen rifles upstairs in a closet.  Exit- Rob- Heather, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Heather- Look at my gun store website, Wolverinedefenseacademy.com. I list more classes at agirlandagun.org under the Portage, Michigan chapter. Rob- After you look at Heather classes, then please leave her a message on the episode webpage. Heather- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  Happy New Year, and we’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.  

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 335 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse. We are joined this week by firearms instructor Robyn Sandoval, and she has been busy. Robyn at the Range Robyn- Hi, Rob.  I just got back from an instructor development class with Brian Hill of The Complete Combatant, and I’m leaving tomorrow to take a low-light class with Chris Cerino at Range Ready Studios near your neck of the woods. Not only do I love learning, but I appreciate showing my students that even instructors and professionals in the firearms industry have to carve out time for our own training. How about you? Rob- I’ve been dry practicing. I’m still waiting to get my gun back from the shop. They say they have a new barrel on the way. I’m working on the FBI handgun qualification test. We didn’t receive any new ratings or comments on iTunes or Facebook. I do want to thank Roger for his help this week. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. I’m retiring soon, so this can be yours. Robyn- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, citizens defend themselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. In this episode, we’ll look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. Listeners can find links back to the original news articles on the podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Shady Cove, Oregon. Rob- First story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? You are at home in bed. It is 2 in the morning when you hear someone break into your home. You arm yourself. Your attacker moves toward you and you shoot them. You stop shooting when they stop advancing. You step back and call 911. You put your gun away when police arrive. The police call for a life-flight helicopter. EMTs declare your attacker dead at the scene. You give a statement to the police. You show them how the intruder broke into your home. You identify your attacker and tell the police that you have a protective order against them. You are not charged with a crime. Robyn- Unfortunately this is a common scenario because that protective order is just a piece of paper. So let’s look at what else our defender did to protect herself. First, she recognized a problem and sought legal help. Getting the order of protection or restraining order was a good step because that gave her legal protection that the attacker would be breaking the law by contacting her or if he was even near her, for example, within 500 feet. But most importantly, she had a firearm and learned how to store it, access it, and use it if needed. On the day of the attack, she had locked her doors. She reacted to the sound of a breakin. She armed herself. She defended herself when the attacker moved toward her. She stopped shooting when the attack stopped. She stayed at the scene and called for help. She put her gun away when the police arrived, and she gave them a brief statement. Rob- Are there other things that weren’t mentioned in the news report that you’d like us to do if we have a stalker? Robyn-  There may have been other options that could have given her more time to wake up and respond. Maybe a doorbell cam, motion alarm, or barking dog could have given her a warning. Alarms are affordable and you can put a motion detector on your outside doors even if you are a renter. You could also even put a motion detector inside your home, as well as motion activated lights.  It’s also good for her to have a community of support. Hopefully she told her neighbors, friends, employer, pastor, and others that she had a stalker and had taken out a restraining order against him.  Of course, always keep your gun accessible to you and on-body in a holster whenever possible. Keep your doors and windows locked. When you’re in an interior room with a locking door, go ahead and lock it as well. Have the volume on your phone turned up so that you will hear it or be awakened by it when your security app discovers motion.  Most importantly, have a plan. Be able to arm yourself and move to a secure position in the room. Turn on the lights. Call 911. Shout that you are armed, and that you’ve called the police. Stop any attacker that comes through your bedroom door. Because you’re at an increased risk, it is doubly important that you have a self-defense legal insurance plan. In this situation, it’s not just about surviving an attack in that moment; it’s surviving the legal process afterwards and ensuring that your future is safe as well. So, make your legal plan part of your emergency action plan. Know what facts that you want to point out to officers. For example, that you shouted for the attacker to stop (so that your neighbors might be able to corroborate that they heard shouts before they heard shots, or that the alarm system may have recorded your shouts, or they may also be on the 911 call). Point out concise facts: this is the broken door where the attacker forced entry, this is the person against whom I have a restraining order, etc. Rob- Why are those statements so important? Robyn- The police are trying to figure out if there was a crime, and if so, then to collect evidence for a prosecution. You want to identify yourself, and give evidence that you are the defender rather than the attacker. The more obvious it is that you are the defender, then the more evidence the police will find to support your case. That said, once you point out the evidence, then you remain silent until your attorney is with you. Rob- There is a lot that we can learn here even if we don’t have a stalker. When do your students learn about defense in the home and about talking to the police? Robyn-  When someone begins contemplating a gun for home defense, whether it’s when they’re purchasing a new firearm or just making an emergency action plan, these are important factors that have to be considered from the beginning. Safe storage, accessibility, cover and concealment inside the home, deterring factors or barriers outside of the home, security features, lights, mirrors to view around corners… all of these things can be considered as part of the plan. As for talking to the police, most of the time it’s important to learn what NOT to say as much as what to say. In that critical incident, a defender is going to be stirred with a lot of adrenaline and emotion. Training to stay mindful and focused throughout the entire process is critical. Rob- We’ve said a lot. Are you ready to move on? Robyn- Our second story was in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender: Locked her doors Got a restraining order.  Bought a gun and learned how to use it. Brought her gun when she investigated a noise. Shot her attacker when she recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat. Stopped shooting when the attack stopped. Did not chase the attacker. Called 911, put her gun away so she met the police with empty hands. She showed the broken door to the police and gave a statement.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Best practices says that if a person is alone and they think they are in danger, they should retreat to a defensible room, lock and barricade the doors, turn on the lights, call 911 and prepare to defend from cover or concealment. Going out to investigate means you are walking into an unknown situation with an unknown number of attackers. You don’t know where they are and if they are armed (usually they are.) Clearing a house by yourself is very dangerous and tactically unsound.  The defender had a restraining order on this person. She should have told all of her friends and neighbors about it as a safeguard.  Motion-detection cameras with sound cost less than $100. They are good for interiors as well as exteriors. Some even connect to your smart phone. Don’t forget to reinforce the home’s perimeter, doors and windows. Longer screws, larger striker plates and hurricane film on glass are cheap insurance policies that pay off bigtime. Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home on Thanksgiving? You are at home in the evening. The news story doesn’t say if you have holiday guests with you, but your neighbors in the apartment complex are coming and going. It is about 7:30 when you hear a crashing sound. You grab your gun and go to investigate. You see an armed stranger standing in your apartment. You’re being robbed. He moves toward you. You shoot him until he stops advancing. You stop shooting. You back up and call 911 for help. You open the apartment complex access door so the police can get inside. You put your gun away and set down the phone to talk to the officers. They police officers disarm your attacker. EMTs declare your attacker dead at the scene from gunshot wounds to the head. You give the police a statement. You show them your shattered front door. The officers check the video security files in the apartment complex. They assume your attacker snuck in behind another resident or behind a guest who was visiting for Thanksgiving. The police take your firearm as evidence. You are not charged with a crime. Robyn- Like our earlier story, our defender knew that she had a greater risk of a home invasion, so she was prepared. Philadelphia crime rates are very high, so she bought a gun and had it with her in her home, even on Thanksgiving. She locked her doors so she knew who was in her home. She responded to a strange sound rather than excusing the sound as a noise from the party next door. She defended herself. She identified an armed, unavoidable threat, and she took action. Then stayed at the scene so the robber’s accomplice couldn’t change the evidence like grabbing the robber’s gun and running away with it. She got help on the way and she talked briefly with the officers when they arrived. Rob- The story says that the defender shot the attacker in the head. Talk about that. Robyn- Best practice is to aim for the largest target so we’re most likely to get the hits we need. On a human threat, that would be placing your sights at the heart/lungs area. However, your gun is going to be in your line of sight, which means you’re going to aim at what you’re looking at. In force-on-force scenarios, students often put rounds into the attacker’s hands because they are focused on the gun or other weapon. If the attacker had his gun in front of his face, then the defender may have shot towards the attacker’s gun and made impact into the head. That might have been where her eyes went in a moment of stress. There are times, however, when aiming at a smaller target like the head might be a better option than the torso. It’s good to take training classes to learn different scenarios and how to manage them. Rob- What would you tell your students to do as they clean up after Thanksgiving? Robyn-  Get used to wearing your firearm in a holster on your body, and keep it on you while you’re going about your day… even as you do Thanksgiving dishes or put up your holiday decorations. The holidays bring out a lot of emotion in people, and can be difficult for some, leading to drinking in excess or substance abuse. This can lead to increased crime, so be prepared. Encourage your adult family members to also carry and be trained. Concealed carry should be a nonissue at your home, so that your guests know that you are armed, and that they can feel comfortable coming to your house while they are armed. Make sure you know the laws of your area so that you are in compliance as you move in and out of your home. If you need a carry permit to walk your guests out to their car, get one so that your lifestyle isn’t interrupted and you don’t have to take off your gun to do it. As we’ve said, have an emergency action plan. Know where you can find cover, or retreat to a back room and lock the door. We don’t know the precise details of this attack. Maybe she was shooting from her kitchen and it was safer to use the kitchen doorway as concealment than to retreat to the bedroom. Move out of sight (concealment), and behind something bulletproof (cover), so you are hard to shoot. Criminals can often get through security doors. Rob- How many of your students have a spare gun to use the next day? Robyn- If you use your firearm in an incident, it’s going to be seized into evidence by the police. Have another firearm to use for your concealed carry. Don’t become complacent and think that lightning can’t strike you twice. Always be ready to protect yourself and those you love. Rob- Where are we headed next? Robyn- Our third story happened in Granada Hills, California. Rob- First this message from Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership DRGO https://drgo.us/ What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender: Bought a gun and learned how to use it. Hopefully he had a plan. Brought his gun when he investigated a noise. Shot the intruder when he recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat. Shot the intruder in the head. Was that intentional or by accident? Best practices says we aim for upper center chest unless the bad guy is wearing body armor. Then we shoot for the head.  Stopped shooting when the attack stopped. Did not chase the attacker. Called 911, put his gun away so he met the police with empty hands. He showed the broken door to the police and gave a statement.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) “Anyone. Anywhere. Anytime!” Criminals don’t take Thanksgiving off.  Best practices says that if a person is alone and they think they are in danger, they should retreat to a defensible room, lock and barricade the doors, turn on the lights, call 911 and prepare to defend from cover or concealment. Going out to investigate means you are walking into an unknown situation with an unknown number of attackers. You don’t know where they are and if they are armed (usually they are.) Clearing a house by yourself is very dangerous and tactically unsound.  Motion-detection cameras with sound cost less than $100. They are good for interiors as well as exteriors. Some even connect to your smart phone. Don’t forget to reinforce the home’s perimeter, doors and windows. Longer screws, larger striker plates and hurricane film on glass are cheap insurance policies that pay off bigtime.   The police took the defender’s gun as evidence. This is a common practice. If there’s a trial, the defender may not see his gun again for months or even years. You need a back-up gun since the bad guy or his friends may come to visit you long before your gun is returned. And remember, many states require waiting periods or re-application of FOID cards before purchasing another gun. “Two is one and one is none.” Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home? (Youtube video) You’re at home. It is about 8pm and your security alarm says there was movement outside. You check the app on your phone and see three young men walking in your backyard. They are wearing hoodies, masks and gloves. You see them try to open your doors and windows. You try to call 911, but you can’t dial as you watch the intruders. You grab your gun. You see the intruders outside your back door. You move toward the door and shout at them. Then you open the door. Your attackers run when they hear the door open. You go outside and chase the robbers out of your yard. You go back inside and call 911. You are transferred to a non-emergency number. The police pick up the line after 45 minutes. You ask to file a report. Police never come to your address to retrieve the video or take a report. You look online and see a half dozen similar attacks to yours in the last month. The news calls them the Dinner Time Robberies. Tag- No Shots Fired Robyn- It’s good that our defender had the alarms, the app on his phone, and his firearm. I like our defender had a plan and a gun in his gun safe. I love that he had a security system and his doors and windows were locked. It was excellent that he paid attention when he heard the alarm. I’m glad he tried to call 911 for help. He shouted for the intruders to leave. Rob- What else do you see here? Robyn- I would first like for him to not open the door. Keep a barrier between you and an attacker at all times. However, there are several teachable moments here.  There are always things that you discover when you walk through your plan. Do you have your phone with you? It takes you time to open your app on your phone. What if you discover a problem and your gun safe is at the other end of the house? It takes time to open your gun safe. Do you have your gun on your hip? Can you watch your security system and does the security system have a panic button that calls 911 for you? What options do you have for connecting with 911 without losing visibility through your app? Troubleshoot your plan so you don’t discover these things when there are three robbers at your back door. Rob- What else could we do to stay safe in our home?  Robyn- I loved that the defender had over a dozen cameras outside. Let’s also turn on the outside lights. Let’s grab our gun and shout that we’ve called the police. Stay away from the windows where the bad guys can see you and shoot at you. And again, don’t open the door! If they break in, then you are positioned to defend yourself. But don’t approach them, don’t chase them, don’t run across the street in your underwear with a gun in your hand. That is what aggressors do. Don’t act like a bad guy; be a responsible defender.  Rob- What else do you see here? Robyn- After you are safe, then call your lawyer. Do not provide extra information to the police. Do not contact the media. Leave that to your legal team to address. Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Robyn- Our fourth story took place in Shelby, North Carolina. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender: Had a plan. He had a security system with multiple cameras/lights. Paid attention when his security app notified him of movement. Took his gun out of his safe and was prepared to use it. Tried to call 911 but his security app locked him out. Even an old, unused cell phone can be used to call 911 so keep one charged at all times where you think you may need it.  Shouted at the intruders to leave. Left a message with his police department about the incident. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) According to the news report, the defender opened his door and pursued the intruders with his gun. BAD IDEA! If he had used his gun, he would have been seen as the aggressor. And he also put himself in grave danger. He had no way of knowing how many other bad guys there were, where they were or if they were armed. He could have walked into an ambush.  The defender gave a video interview to the TV station. This is very dangerous. Did he check with his lawyer first? The news video included showing the defender leaving his house and running after the intruders while he was holding a gun. In many jurisdictions, this could be considered assault with a deadly weapon by the defender! He could be criminally charged for this. The defender had multiple cameras but he didn’t use them correctly. He followed the bad guys around his house where they could have shot him through a window or door. If you can see them, they can also see you. He should have retreated to a defensible room, barricaded the door, turned on the lights, called 911 and covered the door from concealment or cover. If the intruders broke through his room’s door he would be able to defend himself from only one bad guy at a time as they came through the “fatal funnel” door. One defender can stop many intruders with this tactic.  The defender had a gun but he had to unlock a safe in order to get at it when he needed it. POGO- Pant On, Gun On.  Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public? You’re walking down the street. The sunset was about an hour ago so it is fairly dark. You see one man walk up to a man who is standing on the sidewalk. The first man pulls a gun from his pocket and shoots the man who was standing there. The victim puts up his arms and is shot in the face and in the shoulder as he turns. You have your North Carolina concealed carry permit. You are armed. You shoot the attacker until he drops his firearm. You stop shooting when the attack stops. You call 911 and ask for help. You stay at the scene. You reholster your firearm before the officers arrive. You give a brief statement to the officers. You show them your identification and your carry permit. EMTs take both of the wounded men to the hospital for treatment. The attacker was shot five times. Later, the police reported that your attacker was the aggressor. Warrants have been issued for felony assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill, inflicting serious injury, possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, and assault by pointing a gun. Robyn- It’s good that the defender had her carry permit and she had her carry gun on even though she was simply walking down the street. She paid attention to the people around her as she walked. She recognized that the first man represented an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to the person who didn’t start the fight. She shot her attacker and it sounds like all of her shots were hits. That tells us that she trained and practiced fairly often. She recognized when to stop shooting. She called for help and had empty hands when the officers arrived. Because she had her carry permit, the arriving officers knew that she had a clean criminal record. That made it much easier for the police to figure out who the bad guys were and who the good guys were. Rob- We often tell people to use verbal commands. Is that appropriate in this case? Robyn- What is moral to do, what is legal to do, and what are you willing to do? Maybe you’re willing to let a victim be shot to death until you’ve tried verbal commands. Maybe you identified the legal requirements to use lethal force and shoot your attacker from across the street. Maybe verbal commands would have put you at greater risk. Everything happens in context. You are not required to say anything as long as there is a lethal threat against an innocent victim. Rob- We don’t get to practice recognizing those situations very often. How can your students know what to do in public? Robyn- You’re body can’t go where your mind hasn’t been before. You need to study armed defense. You need to imagine what you might see and consider what you might do. You can do that alone, with a training partner, or in a class. You practice now so you won’t freeze or panic. It is better to practice when we have time. Rob- What else do you see? Robyn- Defense of a third party is always risky. You don’t know the full story. You don’t know what the victim will say to the police. You don’t even know if there are more parties out of your view. The news doesn’t say if the defender moved to cover. That should be part of your training, to be able to move to safety and put barriers between you and any additional threat. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender: Had a carry permit and a gun with him when he was walking on the street after dark. Paid attention when he heard two men arguing.  Recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat. Shot the attacker five times (good accuracy) after he saw the attacker shoot the victim. Stopped shooting after the attacker dropped his gun.  Stayed at the scene, called 911, holstered his gun and gave a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Did the defender have a flashlight with him? Did he know how to use it properly? Always carry a gun, ammo, phone and a flashlight. Carrying a knife is also a good idea.  This is a third party defense which can be very risky. The defender shot the attacker assuming that he was a bad guy. He gambled his life, health, wealth and freedom on his ability to come to the correct conclusion without complete information.  What if the attacker had been a plain-clothes cop making an arrest and the victim had made a furtive movement? Luckily for the defender, that wasn’t the case here.  Did the defender move to cover or concealment before shooting? The number one rule of self-defense is not to get shot. If you interrupt a criminal during the commission of a crime, they will probably shoot at you as well. Prepare for it.  Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Robyn, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Robyn- Look for me at A Girl and a Gun dot org, and at and A Girl & A Gun on all of the social media pages. We have chapters all across the country. Robyn- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 334 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Andee Reardon. A lot of things have happened in Maine since we’ve talked. Tell us about it. Andee Reardon Andee- Hey Rob! It’s been a while. I’ve been super busy with life and meeting the demand for training here in Maine after the active shooter situation in Lewiston. There’s a lot of people waking up to the fact that they are their own first responder and they want to be prepared to protect themselves. I had the honor to work with one of the women who survived the attack to teach her a handgun lesson and help her find the right firearm for her. She said she never wants to feel helpless again. How about you? Rob- I try and work out every day. I know you do too. Being fit lets us pay attention when we’re tired. How do we fit a gun to a new gun owner? Is it like a shoe salesman? Is it like an optometrist, the gun on your left, or the gun on your right? I’ve been dry practicing and I’m still waiting to get my gun from ATEI in Michigan. We didn’t have any new ratings or comments on iTunes. Again, I want to thank Roger for his help this week. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. All this can be yours. Andee- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent news stories to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Chicago, Illinois. Rob- First story- Are you armed at work? You are working in a liquor store. It is late on a weekday night and you’re about to close the store. Two men come inside. One of them draws a gun and demands the money in the cash register. You back away. One of the robbers hits you in the head with a bottle. You present your firearm and shoot at your attackers until they run. You stay inside and call 911 for help. EMTs take you to the hospital in serious condition. Later, you give a statement to the police. It isn’t clear if you have security video. 8 liquor stores were robbed on the  northside in the last month. Most stores are closing earlier. You are not charged with a crime. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) The defender knew that he had a dangerous job. He probably also knew that other stores in his area had been robbed so he decided to have a gun at work. The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation.  The defender stayed in the fight even after he was injured. He presented his gun and shot at the attackers.  The defender stopped shooting when the attackers turned and ran out of the store. The defender did not chase the attackers. He called 911 for help. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) The defender went through the process of getting a FOID card, buying a gun and learned how to use it. Maybe he had a license to carry as well. Hopefully, the defender had a plan since his job put him in danger on a daily basis. Did he visualize numerous possible scenarios in his mind in order to build his “Library of Responses”? That’s a critical step in inoculating himself to the effects of adrenaline and stopping the brain from freezing in a crisis. Creating a defensive plan in the middle of an attack is next to impossible.  Could the defender have used “Tactical Patience” or distractions to keep from getting into a hand-to-hand confrontation? Could he have thrown the money on the floor or knocked a bottle off the counter as a distraction? Did the defender move as he drew his gun? The first rule of self-defense is not to get shot. Did the defender know close quarters techniques including retention shooting? Did the defender carry his gun on him or was the gun staged under the cash register? Why not both? Carry a small, highly concealable micro semi-automatic or revolver and also have a larger, double-stack pistol or short-barrel shotgun under the counter or in the back room. Multiple guns gives you many options. “Two is one, and one is none.” Once the robbers left, the clerk should have: locked all doors, moved any customers to safety and turned off all the interior lights so the returning attackers or their friends wouldn’t have easy targets. The threat is not over until the cops arrive. Make sure your hands are empty and visible when the police arrive. Holding a  gun or a cell phone can get you shot.  Andee- The defender probably saw the news and knew that other stores in his area had been robbed. Before the attack, he got his firearms owners ID card so he could go buy a gun. The night that he was attacked, he recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when the robbers presented a firearm and then hit him in the head with a bottle. If you doubt how serious that can be, then fill an empty wine bottle with water and go hit the side of a 2×4 with the side of the bottle. Look at the bruise on the wood and then figure out what that will do to your skull and to your brain. The defender stayed in the fight even after he was hit in the head. I teach my students, when it comes to life or death, quitting means game over. You fight and stay in it until you are safe. He presented his gun and shot at his attackers. He then stopped shooting when the attackers turned and ran out of the store. (This is a very important piece if you want to be seen as the good guy in the eyes of the law. You MUST stop shooting the moment the threat has ceased.) Rather than chase the bad guys, he stayed inside and called 911 for help. (You’re not superman or a police officer, it’s not your job to catch the bad guy.) Rob- Are there other things you want us to do that were not mentioned in the news reports? Andee- It is hard to get your carry permit in Chicago. It’s worth the trouble. I want him to have his carry permit so he can carry all the time, even when he carries trash out to the dumpster late at night. I want you to have a plan. It is like having a cheat sheet of options. Part of having a plan is also establishing limits that say what you’ll do and when you’ll do it. When will I yell stop when two customers come in looking like robbers? When will I present my gun and where will I move? What will I say? You have to walk through that plan often enough that your reactions are a habit rather than a thought. Situational training doesn’t have to always take place at the range. Walking through a scenario in your head creates neural pathways in your brain, allowing you to react quicker if you’re presented with a similar scenario in real life. Rob- Isn’t walking through your place of work the best simulator we could ask for? Andee- I can be, particularly if you have a co-worker who works through the scenario with you. Another thing I think of reading this story is “be careful about letting people into your danger zone” One of the attackers was close enough to hit the defender with a bottle. We should be very careful as to who we let in our bubble. I often show my students in class how fast someone can get to you from 25 feet away, about the same time it takes someone skilled to draw their firearm. Situational awareness should be warning us whenever someone is within that distance. We should be prepared to “move off the line” if the threat makes a charge. Could the defender have dropped the money tray and a bottle on the floor and backed away? That gives him a moment as the armed attackers are distracted. If you have to present your firearm, then I want you to move as you do. Don’t just stand in the open. Find cover. I want you to have close quarters practice so you can shoot without moving your firearm to full extension. That is accurate enough at short distances, and you don’t hand your gun to your attackers. You should practice hand-to-hand self defense techniques that will give you space to safely draw without your attacker taking your gun from you. I also want you to practice shooting from different positions. Learn to shoot while you’re crouched behind your sales counter. Can you make your counter bulletproof by covering the outside face with brick or stone? We also have to talk about the elephant in the room. Was the defender armed, or was the gun under the counter? I want you armed so you are protected. If you want to put a larger firearm under the counter that is fine too. You can also cache some non-lethal options like pepper spray are a great addition to your self defense tool box. Once the robbers left, the clerk still had some work to do. I want you to lock all doors. Move the customers to the back of the store and turn off all the interior lights so the returning attackers or their friends don’t have easy targets. Make sure your hands are completely empty when you unlock the door to let the police inside. And then make sure you and your witnesses know what to say, and what not to say. Rob- That is a lot to remember. Andee- It is, but you don’t learn it all at once. You are learning reactions rather than thoughts, and once the bad guys leave then you have a moment to think about what to do next. Even then, you’re choosing from a menu you’ve already rehearsed. Rob- We’re at home, at work, at school or out in public. It seems that we need a separate plan for each one. Andee- Yes and no. Most of the parts are the same or similar. What might change is our decision points. We’re more alarmed to a stranger walking into our home than we are to a stranger walking into a retail store. Rob- We’ve said a lot. Are you ready to go on? Andee- Our second story happened in Los Angeles, California. Rob- Second Story- Are you armed as you arrive home? You just drove home and closed the gate behind you. It is 7:30 in the evening and you walk up to your front door. Two men run up behind you. One of them pokes you in the back with his gun. You are carrying a soft drink cup in your hand. You throw your soft drink into the robber’s face and you step aside. You draw your firearm and shoot at your attackers. They run. The narrow walkway leading to your front door gives you no place to hide. You don’t chase your attackers down the street. You go inside and ask your wife to call 911. You also check on your daughter. Both of them are unhurt. You put your gun away. You give a statement to the police. You show them your carry permit and the home security video of the attack. They see your attackers jump over your front wall after you parked your car. You are not charged with a crime. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) The defender had a license to carry and he had his gun on him when he was attacked.  When he realized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation he used throwing his drink at the attackers as a distraction. He also stepped aside. These actions broke the attacker’s OODA loop and gave the defender time to draw his gun. The defender did not chase the attackers. He went inside and had his wife call 911 while he checked on his family.  The defender showed the police his home security video. Whenever possible, give the police a copy of your video and not the original. Video evidence gets damaged and misplaced so you need the original as a back-up. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) According to the news report, the defender was using earbuds when he was attacked. This reduced his situational awareness to only what he could see in front of him and gave the attackers the opportunity to put a gun to his back without being detected.  When did the defender pull the trigger? Before or after the attackers turned and ran off? Did the attackers shoot back at the defender as they were running away? These are critical questions that need to be answered in order to determine if the defender’s shooting at the attackers was legally justified.  Did the defender consult a lawyer before talking to the police? He should have. According to the news report, the defender made multiple statements to the media. This can determine whether you go to trial or not. Best practices says that you only give detailed statements to the police or the media through your lawyer. Whatever you say to the police or the media can be used against you.  Andee- It isn’t directly mentioned in the story, but it implies that the defender’s front door was locked. That kept the attackers from simply pushing their way inside. The defender had a license to carry and he had his gun on him when he was attacked. I don’t like that he was distracted by earbuds, criminals are looking for targets who are unaware and earbuds put a big red target on your head. Don’t do that. Also, don’t go to condition white (unaware) as soon as you get home, you’re not home safe until you’re inside and safe. The defender recognized an attack and threw his drink at the attackers as a distraction. He also stepped aside. Those actions broke the attacker’s plans and gave the defender time and space to draw his gun and shoot. The defender did not chase the attackers. He went inside and had his wife call 911. He checked on his family and holstered his gun.  The defender showed the police his home security video. Whenever possible, give the police a copy of your video and not the original. Video evidence gets damaged and misplaced so you need the original as a back-up for your lawyer.  Rob- What else would you like us to do? Andee-  The defender was startled and waited to shoot. We have several drills where we turn, present, and shoot. Like I said before, we need new habits. The defender talked to the news reporters and I want you not to do that. Talk to your lawyer and let your lawyer decide if he wants to talk to reporters.  This defender has a long legal road ahead of him, we wish him the best and are happy he survived. Rob- Where are we headed next? Andee- Our third story happened in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Rob- First this message from FASTER Colorado. https://fastercolorado.org/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work? https://www.inquirer.com/crime/philadelphia-pizza-shop-shooting-robbery-20231105.html You work for your dad at a small pizza restaurant. It is Saturday night and it is dark outside. The evening rush has slowed down but there is still a lot to do. Two men come in and you get ready to take their order. Most people want their order To-Go. These two are wearing hoodies and masks. They are also wearing rubber surgical gloves. One of them draws a gun from his pants and shoots into the ceiling. The armed man moves behind the counter and pushes you out of the way to get to the cash register. You have no place to run. You draw your legally concealed firearm and shoot your attacker until he drops his gun. Now the attacker falls down. The other attacker runs from the store and you don’t shoot him. The news story doesn’t explain how you get out from behind the counter, but you stay at the scene and call 911. You put your gun away. You give a statement to the police. You identify other witnesses. They agree that the robber shot first. Your attacker died at the scene with several shots to the upper chest and head. Police are looking for security video from other stores in the area. You are not charged, but the police take both your gun and the attacker’s gun as evidence. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) Pizza shops get robbed a lot. Fortunately, the defender was armed when he was robbed. POGO (Pants On… Gun On.) It sounds like the defender got out of the robber’s way and waited until the robber’s attention was on the money before drawing his gun. Then he shot the robber in the upper chest and the head. The goal is to neutralize the threat.  The defender was trapped behind the counter and could not move out of the way so he shot the robber until he dropped his gun and also collapsed. Sometimes this only takes one shot. Other times it might take many shots. You shoot until the threat is over.  The defender did not shoot at the other robber who was running away.  The defender did not pursue the second robber. The defender stayed at the scene, called 911, put his gun away, gave a statement to the police and pointed out witnesses.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) Most pizza shops and stores have more than one employee working at any one time. They should all be armed and have a plan. Two defenders working as a team are six times more effective than a single one. The defender had his gun on him, not under the counter. Carrying your gun means it’s always available when you need it. If you store your gun under the counter, maybe you can get to it and maybe you can’t. The defender did not try to use verbal commands. There is a time and a place for verbal commands but this situation wasn’t one of them. Once the bad guy’s gun is in his hand, the defender has to shoot first and move if possible.  The defender should have moved any customers to safety, locked all doors and moved away from lights and windows in case the other robber returned or if they had friends outside.  Hopefully, the defender has a back-up gun because he may not see his gun for months or even years. When the police take a gun for evidence in a trial, it doesn’t get returned until the trial is over. The criminal attackers will be out on bail long before the defender’s gun is returned so the defender may be defenseless. “Two is one and one is none.” Andee- Shops that are open to the public late at night are at increased risk of robbery. This defender recognized the risks of running a family shop in Philadelphia and decided to go armed. He had his firearm on his person when the attackers entered the store. We haven’t seen the video, but the defender could have been waiting his turn. The robber already had a gun in his hands. He shot into the ceiling so that everyone knew he was armed. The defender was trapped behind the counter by the robbers. It sounds like he waited until the robber was looking at the cash register. That is when he drew his gun and started firing. It is good that he didn’t try verbal commands. Our defender kept firing until the threat was gone. That could be one shot or the entire magazine. The defender did not shoot the other attacker who was running away.  The defender stayed at the shop and called 911 for help. Rob-Are there other things you want your small business owners to do? Andee- I’d like all of your employees to be armed. I’d like you to have a video system that shows your attackers and your defense. Like the previous story, I want you to move your customers to safety, lock all your doors and move everyone away from lights and windows. I also hope you have another gun you can bring to work tomorrow.  Rob- I have a problem with some new gun owners. How do you convince gun owners that run a business that their gun isn’t magic? Andee-  I try to convey how important training is. Like driving a stick shift, it’s going to take a while to operate it smoothly, in different environments and in different scenarios. Guns are the same. It’s an acquired and perishable skill. You must practice and train to keep it up. I don’t know it all and I love being a student when I get the chance. I think everyone should take a training course every so often, regardless of your skill. You can always learn something new. Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Andee- Our fourth story took place in Houston, Texas. Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public? You are part of the security team at church. A member of the church called the police and also called the church saying that someone had threatened the pastor that day. Another church member told you the suspect was outside in the parking lot. You grab a rifle and go outside to investigate. You see the suspect. You shout for him to stop. He runs at you with something in his hand. You shoot him twice until he stops. You stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for help. You put your gun down when officers arrive. Officers find a vape in the attacker’s hand, but no weapon. You give a statement to the officers. So do the other members of the security team. The officers collect statements from the attacker’s family and acquaintances that confirm the threats against the pastor and the church. Your attacker was the son of a church member. He was arrested yesterday for stabbing a sword through a trailer. Police found psychotropic drugs in the attacker’s truck. You are not charged with a crime. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) The defender was part of a church security team that worked well together to point out a possible threat. The defender encountered the suspect and tried using verbal commands but they failed. The suspect charged the defender who shot the suspect twice. The defender stopped shooting when the threat was over. He called 911. He put his gun down and gave a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) Did the defender carry non-lethal weapons? Could he have stopped the attacker with pepper spray or by hitting him with the rifle butt? Was the suspect charging at the defender an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat? Could the defender articulate his reasons for using deadly force? Was disparity of force involved? Any threats the suspect made to others prior to the time he was shot do not justify use of deadly force by the defender. Did the defender misinterpret the vape device in the suspect’s hand as a weapon? Maybe the defender could have taken cover behind a car and waited to find out if the suspect had a weapon or not. Did the vape device look like a gun or a knife? How far away was the suspect when the defender shot him? Did the defender know about the Tueller drill? Could the defender have brought other members of the security team with him when he went to investigate?   Andee- Way before that Sunday, the church thought that they might have a problem someday and they put a team in place. The security team had a way to collect information from the public and the police. The defender tried to use verbal commands when he saw the suspect. I don’t know if any other church members were outside, but I would have preferred everyone to lock themselves in the church and call the police. That may not have been feasible. The defender did not let the suspect get within hand-to hand range. He stopped shooting when the threat stopped advancing. The defender called 911 for help and put his gun down when the police arrived. He also gave a brief statement to the police.  Rob- What else do you see here? Andee- If you have self-defense insurance, ask them if you are covered if you’re part of a church security team. If you don’t have it, time to consider it. You have to explain why you had to close the distance to the suspect in the parking lot. You have to explain why he was an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to innocent people. Not what you feared might happen later, but the threats you saw in that moment. That is a tough call and you absolutely must walk through those situations before they happen or you will freeze. There is no doubt that the attacker meant ill will and was disturbed. Was he a lethal threat to any particular individual before you pulled the trigger? This could be the difference between going home and going to jail. Rob- You phrased it differently, but those are the same requirements that I need to show if I use a firearm at home. Andee- They are, but you know the people you expect to see in your home. Shopkeepers and church staff expect to see strangers every day, often strangers with problems. They have to show even more restraint. It’s very important that your church security team knows more than just how to use a firearm… they should be training in emergency 1st aid and how to deescalate situations with verbal judo. They should also have a lockdown plan in place so if something is happening outside, they can stay safe until police arrive. What a lot of people don’t know is, a majority of church shootings are not hate crimes or religion driven, they are domestic crimes. Family members attack other family members, ex husbands mad at a church that helped his ex wife leave, stuff like that. Churches should have a safety ministry for these people who are in danger and a safety plan should their stalker show up at church. Many women are afraid to tell their pastor what’s going on at home, so having  a safety and security ministry trained to help them and being open about these issues will not only be a great asset to the community, but it helps keep the other members of the church safe too. Something I learned training with Col Grossman, a lot of church shootings happen in the parking lot. Security teams who only prepare for emergencies indoors are only half prepared. Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Andee Reardon, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Andee- Look for me at East Coast School of Safety and on my facebook and Instagram pages with the same name. Rob- After you look at Andee articles, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. Andee- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse. Happy Thanksgiving, and we’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 333 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Amanda Suffecool. What has been keeping you so busy? Amanda- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been extremely busy with election stuff.   You know that GUN people need to be represented in the political world as part of the protection of 2A.   So I am on my local board of elections, in addition to all the 2A stuff.  Have we chatted since 65 of my closest friends converged upon DC to represent Women for Gun Rights? It was amazing. How about you? Rob- My new gun has been at ATEI for three weeks, and they still don’t have the parts for it. If you’re scuba diving in another country, were you overseas or under-seas? No matter how you describe it, I had a good week and you made it better when we received a new rating and comment on iTunes. Jacoby says we help him with mental preparation and with building a solid home defense plan.  Dwayne commented on our earlier episode. He liked Candy Petticord’s comment that you never know what skills or weapons the opponent has. If your attacker gets that close with a knife at the very least you will be cut or stabbed. Amanda- We’ll talk about knives a bit more in this episode. Thank you Jacoby and Dwayne. We also want to thank Roger for his help this week. We had over 10-thousand downloads last month, and I noticed that a fair number of  you are going back and listening to older episodes. How can we make it easier to find the material you want to review? Rob- We’re still looking for listeners who want to join our staff and write or edit this podcast. Someday, all this can be yours. Amanda- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Morgan Park, Illinois. Rob- First story- Are you armed at home? The news doesn’t say how the man got into your home, but you are now yelling for him to leave. You’ve met him before, but now it is almost 1 in the morning and the man grabs a knife and threatens you. You retreat and grab your gun. Your knife-wielding attacker advances toward you again. You shoot him several times until he drops his knife and stops advancing. You step back and call 911. You stay at the scene and continue to talk with the police dispatcher. You put your gun away when the officers arrive. You give the officers a brief statement about what happened. EMS transports your attacker to the hospital. You are questioned and released. Police take your firearm as evidence. You are not charged. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) The defender had purchased a gun, had it available and probably had a plan for a home invasion. Did she have her FOID card? She did not freeze when she was confronted with a man she knew but had not invited into her home at 1:00 in the morning. Many people have a delayed reaction when attacked by someone they know. They get hit with the “I can’t believe that this is happening” moment.  She tried verbal commands to get him to leave but that failed. He presented a knife and he kept advancing on her. When the attacker advanced with the knife she recognized that she was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation. The intruder had a knife (Ability), he was close enough to her in order to use it (Opportunity) and he had threatened her with words or with his actions (Jeopardy). Did the defender have training in the Tuller Drill? How close was the attacker? Did the defender know how to shoot from a retention position? According to the news report, the defender fired four shots at the intruder and all of them struck him in the torso. Did she have training or was she lucky? She stopped shooting when he dropped the knife and he stopped advancing. The defender gained some distance from the attacker and called 911. She kept the phone line open to the 911 dispatcher and did not have her gun in her hands when the police arrived.  She gave a statement to the police. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) Neither the news report nor the story reveal how the intruder got into the defender’s home. Hopefully the doors and windows were locked. If they were, then how did the attacker get in without making any noise? Did the attacker have a key? Was the attacker an old boyfriend? If you change boyfriends/girlfriends it’s a good idea to also change the door locks. The news report and the story don’t say where the defender retreated to in order to grab her gun. Apparently she was not home carrying.  If she moved to another room to get the gun, did she have the time to turn around, lock the door, grab her gun, move to cover/concealment and prepare to defend herself from inside of the room rather than go back out and confront the attacker? Tactically your odds of surviving are much greater with retreat and defend. Distance and cover are your friends.   The defender stayed on the phone with the 911 dispatcher when she called. It’s good that she left the line open but did she remember that everything she said was being recorded and it could be used against her if she went to court? Don’t tell the 911 dispatcher or the police the details of what happened. Let your lawyer do that for you.  The 911 dispatcher’s job is to gain as much information about the situation as they can for the safety of the arriving police and EMS personnel- not you! The 911 dispatcher is not on the scene with you and they are not the police. You do not have to do what they say and sometimes the dispatchers give defenders bad advice. You are your own first responder and you have to handle the situation until the cavalry arrives. That’s why you need training.  The defender gave a statement to the police and answered their questions when she was held in custody. Did she consult her lawyer first or have her lawyer present during the interrogations? During these times the police are not your friends. Their job is to arrest you, not exonerate you and everything you say only helps their case- not yours.  After a self-defense shooting, the police will often confiscate your gun(s) as evidence and you may not see them again for months or even years if your case goes to court. Do you have a back-up gun to use in the meantime? Most likely, the criminal(s) that attacked you will get out on bail long before you get your gun back or they may have friends who will want to pay you a visit. You can probably purchase another gun while you wait but some states have long waiting periods and additional paperwork like getting another FOID card in order to buy another gun. You may find yourself defenseless when you need a gun the most. There is an old saying in the self-defense community: “Two is one and one is none.” Amanda-  I like that the defender recognized that bad things can happen to good people so she found a way to defend herself. That isn’t easy in Illinois. She applied for an Illinois Firearms Owners Identification Card. She purchased a firearm. She learned how to store it and how to use it. Every single step of that chain was necessary so she didn’t get stabbed to death at 1 in the morning. The defender didn’t freeze when she saw someone in her home who didn’t belong there. She recognized that the attacker with a knife was a lethal, immediate, and unavoidable threat. She upped her defense game, step by step. She said I’m here and I see you. She told the intruder to leave. She said I’m armed. Only then did she shoot her attacker and stopped shooting only when he moved away, but she did stop shooting when he did move away. Both of those are important. She shot four times and she hit her attacker with four shots in the chest. You all hear that in class – largest part of the target, center of mass.  That is good shooting and it is what I want my students to do. She created some space between herself and the attacker so she was safe. She stayed at the scene and called 911. She stayed on the call until the police arrived. She put her gun down and had empty hands when the police arrived. Empty hand includes not having a cell phone in your hand when the cops see you. Show the officers – who are coming in hot – that you are not the threat.   They have a split second to determine who is the bad guy.    She gave a brief statement to the police about what happened to her. Rob- Tell me a little bit more about talking to the dispatcher and then having to do what the arriving officers tell you to do. Amanda- We try to be polite. We make it a habit. That habit doesn’t work in every situation. We’re in a conversation with the dispatcher on the phone and the police are arriving at our apartment. Put the gun and cell phone down and step away from them. Part of us wants to say goodbye to the dispatcher. To thank them. To wish them well.  Ask if we can meet for tea, then to check our phone messages because those familiar activities let us feel like things are normal even though the situation is absolutely abnormal. This is the time to focus and do exactly what the police tell you to do. You might be handcuffed. You’ll be asked all kinds of questions. Give a very brief statement about what happened. Point out evidence, then say you’ll give a full statement after you’ve spoken with your lawyer. Now stop talking.   Let me repeat.   STOP talking.   Rob- Are there other things you’d like your students to do? Amanda- I want your doors and windows locked, secure your house. That way it is clearly evident that this was a forcible and unwanted entry into your home, IF the locks did not work to deter them in the first place. If you hear a breakin, then I want you to grab your gun, your light, and your phone.   Secure yourself somewhere in your house, and  the door should be locked. Get behind your bed or other furniture and call 911. Your job is to not get beaten, stabbed, or shot, so let the drunk idiot re-arrange your flowers but don’t go exploring for intruders by yourself in the middle of the night if you can avoid it. I also want you to have a lawyer to call. Just like a firearm, you need your lawyer before the bad guy breaks into your home. Rob- Where are we heading for our next story? Amanda- Let’s go to Saint Louis, Missouri. Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public? The news reports aren’t clear if this was a robbery or a carjacking. You are in or near your car. It is almost midnight, and two young men wearing ski masks run towards you. One of them breaks your car window to get inside. You tell them to get back, but one of the attackers charges you. You shoot him and he stops. The other attacker runs away. You stay at the scene and call 911. You put your gun away when the police are nearby. You give them a statement and a description of your attackers. Police find your attacker a few blocks away. They also find the firearm he stashed. EMS declares one of your attackers dead at the scene. Your other attacker is charged with armed criminal action, attempted stealing of a vehicle and tampering with evidence in a felony prosecution. He is held on a 1-million dollar cash bond. He is 18 years old. You are not charged with a crime. Amada- I like that our defender was armed when he got out of his car. He recognized that two masked teenagers running toward him was a potential threat. He used verbal commands. He shot his closest attacker when the armed attackers didn’t stop, and he saw that thing had turned serious. He stopped shooting when the bad guys ran away. Our defender stayed at the scene and called for help. He reholstered his gun and told the police what happened. Sorry about the car window. Rob- When should we stop shooting? Amanda- We stop shooting when we recognize that the threat has ended. Situations such as – A criminal ignored my shouts to stop and moved so he could grab me unless I defended myself.  He remains a threat until he is incapable of harming me or until his actions show he changed his intent. This is an adult description. You might shoot him in the side as he turns, but you don’t want to shoot him when he is already lying on the ground and has dropped his gun. It takes you some time to recognize that the attack is over and the law understands that. It is called the reactionary period. Rob- The defender shot an unarmed man. Why was this a lethal threat? Amanda- Two criminals approached you and ignored your verbal command to stop. That showed intent. There are two of them and you are a single defender so they have  a disparity of force against you. In addition, one of them is armed. That means that both of them are a threat to you. There is a lot going on, you are fairly safe assuming the other is armed also.  And remember they can run you down faster than you can back up. I’m glad you asked because those are the sort of legal points that your lawyer will highlight in your written statement. The fact that you put your gun away and retreated to a local business might show that you were not looking for a fight, but were in fact only looking for safety. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) The defender was armed when he was walking to his car in the parking lot in the dark. The defender was situationally aware and he noticed the two thieves trying to steal his car.  The defender tried using verbal commands but these failed. The defender shot the masked attacker when he was charged. The defender stopped shooting when the threat stopped. He stayed at the scene, called 911 and put his gun away so he had empty hands when the police arrived. The defender gave a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) It’s not clear from the news report if this was a carjacking or a car owner engaging two thieves in the process of stealing his car. Carjacking is the criminal taking of a car from the owner by force. That means that the car owner’s life was threatened. But if the car’s owner engaged the two thieves while they were in the process of stealing his car, then that would be considered a property crime. You can’t use deadly force against a criminal for stealing property- unless it happens in Texas and only under certain circumstances. Was the car’s owner protecting his life or his car? Know the laws for use of deadly force.  At least one of the thieves was armed which means that there was a good chance that there might have been a gunfight with bullets going both directions. Could the car’s owner have retreated and called 911 instead of trying to stop the theft? No car is worth losing your life or going to prison over.  Rob- Where are we going next? Amanda- Our third story happened in Atlanta, Georgia. Rob- First this message from the Crime Prevention Research Center Cprc https://crimeresearch.org/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work? You are a building contractor working on a home repair. You start back to your truck to return some tools. You see someone breaking into your truck. You shout for them to stop. The thief shoots at you. You’re armed. You shoot back. You duck back inside the home and call 911 for help. Police arrive at the scene and disarm your attacker. EMTs treat your attacker and transport him to the hospital. Police arrest him and determine that he is a juvenile. You give a statement to the police. You point out the evidence. You wonder who is responsible for repairing the bullet holes in the home. You are not charged. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) The defender was armed while he was on the job doing home repairs. POGO- pants on, gun on. If your gun isn’t on you when you need it, are you going to have the time to go and get it? What if the defender’s gun was locked inside the truck the thief was trying to steal? The defender saw the thief breaking into his truck and he tried using verbal commands which failed. They don’t always work but it costs nothing to try using them and it shows the courts that you tried non-lethal means to resolve the issue first. Under most circumstances, using a gun should be your last resort, not your first.  The thief shot at the defender creating an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation so the defender pulled his gun and fired back in self-defense. The defender moved to cover/concealment and called 911 for help. The defender pointed out the evidence to the police and gave them a statement.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) Did the defender move to cover/concealment before he tried verbal commands? Don’t engage a criminal during the commission of a crime unless you are doing so from a safe position. Criminals aren’t concerned about indiscriminately shooting at anyone who interrupts them. They just want to get away. Be prepared for a violent response.  Who’s responsible for the bullet holes in the house? The criminal is held legally liable for every bullet that leaves his gun- just the same as we are. Repairs to the house might be covered by the home owner’s insurance but more than likely the repair costs would be added to the criminal’s plea bargain or the terms of his prison sentence. If the bullet holes were caused by the defender, he would have to pay for the repairs out of his own pocket since self-defense legal plans only cover lawyer fees and court costs. Amanda- I work on home repair all the time. This contractor recognized that he is considered an easy target for criminals. He has tools and he might have cash to pay for materials or to pay subcontractors. He went armed.   He may or may not know the general disposition of the neighborhood he is working in. Our defender tried verbal commands. He recognized that being shot at was a lethal threat and he decided to shoot back and stop the threat. He stopped shooting when he could. He retreated to cover and called for help. He told the police what happened. Good job. Rob- Is there more you’d like us to do? Amanda- Your truck is your office. Lock it and alarm it. Ask the police about the sort of crimes in the area.  Also, you want to point out the evidence that you were attacked. There are bullet holes in the front of the house. There are shell casings on the ground next to your attacker. The neighbors should have heard your shouts and the attacker’s shots. I wonder if the defender can sue the attacker’s family to repair the home and his truck. That is another reason you need a lawyer.   And shall I ask in a tongue in cheek sort of way,  He was a juvenile, How did he get a gun.   Guns for juveniles are illegal.   Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Amanda- Our fourth story took place in Wake Forest Crossing, North Carolina. Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public? You’re walking across the grocery store parking lot on a Sunday night. It is after dark when you hear some people arguing. It looks like a man is arguing with a couple. You slow down to see what is happening. The man shouts louder and you see him present a firearm and shoot at the couple. They back away. The armed attacker chases them. You have your North Carolina concealed carry permit and you’re armed tonight. You present your firearm and shoot at the attacker. He stops shooting and runs away. You see him get into a car and drive away. You reholster you firearm and call 911. You move toward the couple and ask if they’re injured.  You give a statement to the police when they arrive. The attacker crashed his car nearby. Police arrest the attacker and take him to jail. He is banged up from his car crash, but neither the couple nor their attacker were wounded. The attacker is charged with two counts of assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill, discharging a firearm in the city limits, driving while impaired, driving without a drivers license, failure to wear a seatbelt, and failure to maintain lane control. Police later called the attack “domestic violence.” The news story doesn’t mention what happened to your groceries. You are not charged. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) The defender was armed when he went grocery shopping. POGO- pant on, gun on.  The defender paid attention when he saw and heard the three people arguing in the parking lot.  The defender did not fire on the attacker until the attacker started shooting at the couple. The defender holstered his gun and called 911 when the attacker stopped shooting and ran to his car.  The defender checked on the couple and gave a statement to the police. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.) Did the defender have a legal or a moral obligation to help the couple who was being shot at? NO! The defender decided to defend the third party (the couple) against the shooter without complete information. The defender risked his life, health, wealth and his freedom without knowing who was who and what was happening. What if the shooter was a cop making an arrest? It was a big gamble.  Did the defender move to cover/concealment before engaging the shooter?  The defender interrupted the shooter’s OODA loop and got him to stop shooting and run away. Did the defender have the equipment and the training to treat any gun shot wounds? If you carry a gun, you need a trauma kit with you and the knowledge of how to use it on yourself and others.  Where did the defender’s bullets go since they did not hit the shooter? Remember, every bullet you fire has to stop somewhere. Amanda- Every firearms instructor has heard the statement that I’ll just carry my gun when I’m going someplace dangerous. First, don’t go there if  you know it is dangerous. Second, you won’t know it is dangerous until you’re already there. This defender put his gun on when he dressed in the morning. He recognized a lethal threat directed at innocent parties. He tried  to stop the attack. He stopped shooting when the attack was over. He checked on the victims and called 911. He stayed at the scene and gave the police a brief statement. Rob-  What else do you see here? Amanda-  It is a tough call to defend strangers because we don’t know the complete situation. A parking lot might give you cover or at least concealment. Your first job is to not get shot. If you yell for the attacker to stop then the ear witnesses will help identify you to the police as a defender rather than as an attacker. I worry that every shot you fire is going to stop someplace. If you miss the bad guy, then were did your bullet go? One last comment, this was a psychological stop. Being shot at was enough to make the bad guy change his plans and run away. The story said its a “domestic violence”,  and i am invested here.  I want to know more details of why someone you know is shooting at you in the dark.  Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Amanda, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Amanda- My eye on the target radio show is syndicated coast to coast on Sunday nights from 5 to 7 eastern time. The show is also on video at OpsLens. I instruct on the weekends in Northeastern Ohio. I’m part of the DCProject – Women for Gun rights  that you can find at WomenForGunRights.org Rob- After you listen to Amanda podcasts and watch her TV show, then please leave her a message on our podcast episode webpage. Amanda- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.  

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 332 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Candy Petticord. What has been keeping you so busy? Candy Petticord Candy- Hi, Rob.  I’ve just returned from joining Women For Gun Rights in Washington D.C. It was an awesome opportunity to meet with and talk to our legislators and share our concerns about attacks on the 2nd Amendment and our 2A rights.  How about you? Rob- I’m waiting for my new gun to come back from the shop. I’ve been dry practicing with my old Glock, and dry practicing the FBI qualification test.  Candy – I just completed that qual with my kids for AG&AG. It’s a tough course of fire but very awesome to complete from time to time as it tests so many basic firearm skills.  Rob- Dwayne sent in a story. Robin suggested a new female co-host we could use. Thank you, Dwayne and Robin. I also want to thank Roger and Mel for their help this week. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. Someday, all this can be yours. Candy- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Kokomo, Indiana. Rob- First story- Do you have a firearm nearby when you’re asleep in bed? You’ve barely gone to sleep when you hear a strange sound. Someone is in your home. You grab your gun and go investigate. You see someone near the front door. You shout for him to get out. The man charges you and you push him back. You try to push him back outside your home. You hit each other a few times. Finally, you step back and shoot your attacker. Now he stops attacking you. You stop shooting and retreat. Your attacker falls down. You call 911 and ask for help. You stay on the call with the police dispatchers. You put your gun down before the police arrive. You call to the officers when they knock on your door. They see your attacker on the floor and render aid. Emergency medical services take your attacker to the hospital. You are treated at the scene for cuts, scrapes, and bruises. You give the police a statement about what happened. News reports don’t say how your attacker entered your home. Your attacker died in the hospital a few hours later. You are not charged with a crime. Candy- At some point our defender decided that bad things happen to good people and he bought a firearm. They kept their firearm in a condition so it could be used immediately and they kept it in a position where they could reach it quickly in the middle of the night. The homeowner heard something that didn’t sound right. We’re not told how long it took for the defender to decide, “Hmmm, there is a guy wandering around inside my home rearranging my furniture in the middle of the night – Yeah, that ain’t right” before he decided to do something but the key is – He got up and did something.  Our defender grabbed his firearm and went to investigate. He gave a verbal warning, probably something along the lines of, “Hey, get out of my house.” When that didn’t work, he tried going hand to hand to push the intruder outside. When that didn’t work, he used his firearm. The defender stopped shooting when the attacker backed away, called for help, and stayed on the line with the police dispatcher. Our homeowner had empty hands when he met the police. He told them what happened, and he was treated by Emergency Medical Personnel for his injuries. Rob- That sounds like a lot to do when you were asleep only a few seconds ago. Is there more you’d tell your students to do that wasn’t covered in the news story? Candy- I would love it if our listeners would understand that the days of Mayberry are gone, probably forever, and so our doors and windows MUST BE LOCKED, especially at night and/or when we are not home, so hopefully the bad guy will decide that breaking into their home would be too much trouble, walk away, and look for an open door at someone else’s home. With your home properly secured, if the bad guy gets impatient, he then needs to make a lot of noise breaking down your door, which will wake you and buy you time to decide your next move.  If you’re living alone like this defender, male or female, I would ask you to grab your gun and your flashlight, lock your bedroom door, take a place of concealment behind your bed or a dresser, and call 911. Let the guys who get paid to deal with the crazy, middle-of-the-night furniture rearranger deal with him so you don’t have to. Rob- Was it a good idea to go hand to hand with an intruder? Candy- That depends. If a small person walks into your open carport, then you, Rob, can shout at them and push them out – maybe. There are times where I think it can be a fatal mistake to underestimate the “little guy” and, with that being said, I am not going to go hand to hand with anyone if I can help it, particularly if they have broken into my home. I don’t care what size you are, if you break into my bedroom or my children’s bedroom, you are going to get shot. Rob- When do you talk to your students about how to protect their family in their home? Candy- This is discussed after basic handgun safety. Most people who come to my classes are there out of a desire to protect themselves and their loved ones, so the discussion of home security occurs pretty early. Rob- We have millions of new gun owners in the last month. A lot of those guns are sitting in the box they came in on the top shelf of the bedroom closet. How should these new gun owners store a firearm in their home? Candy- Take a class on firearm safety. Buy a small bedside safe. They cost about $100. Take a marksmanship class so you learn how to shoot accurately. Now, take your gun and your family to the range twice a month so you and your family make friends with your gun. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not change these notes.) The defender got out of bed to investigate a strange noise rather than ignoring it and going back to sleep. He took his gun with him. The defender tried using verbal commands to get the intruder to leave but that failed. The defender recognized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when the intruder charged him.  He was able to break free from the intruder, stepped back and shot him until the threat stopped. The defender called 911, put his gun away when the police arrived and then gave a statement.  The defender also got EMS to check him out and document his injuries.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not change these notes.) Since the defender appeared to be alone in the home, best practices says that he should have stayed in his bedroom, barricaded the door, called 911 and prepared to defend himself if the intruder broke in. That’s better than walking into an unknown number of intruders and not knowing where they are and if they are armed. A survey of convicted home invaders found that most of them bring a friend with them and almost all of them (98%) bring weapons. The defender allowed the intruder to get so close to him that they ended up getting into hand-to-hand combat. Could the defender have engaged the intruder from a distance or from behind cover/concealment? Did the defender have any close quarter fighting skills and did he know how to shoot from a retention position? Did the defender have a flashlight with him? A bright flashlight or a weapon-mounted light can be critical in identifying whether an intruder is a threat or not. It can also act as a deterrent. Shining a light on an intruder while the defender stays in the dark is a big tactical advantage too.   Rob- Is there more you want to cover on this story, or should we go on? Candy- Let’s move on. Our second story happened in Bellefontaine Neighbors, Missouri. Rob- Second Story- Are you armed as you drive? You and your wife just arrived back home. You are still sitting in the back seat of the car. Your wife says she forgot something and will only be a minute. She left the driver’s-side door open. You look up and see a teenager jump into the car and start it. You present your firearm from your concealed holster and shoot your carjacker. He runs back to the car that dropped him in front of your house. Your attackers shoot at your car and you’re injured. News reports don’t say if you or your wife called 911 and asked for help. Police arrest your attacker. He has a gunshot wound to his arm. He is a juvenile. You are taken to the hospital for treatment of your wounds. They are described as non-life threatening and you are in stable condition. The police say that your attackers followed your car home after you dropped your kids off at school. You are not charged with a crime. Candy- Our good guy recognized that he could be at risk even though he lives in a nice part of town so he purchased a firearm and had it on his person. That day when someone jumped into his car to carjack him, he reacted immediately, which tells me our good guy probably has some training under his belt or, at the very least, a lot of dry-practice time, which is great!! He shot his attempted carjacker and stopped shooting when the criminal was no longer a threat. According to the news reports, he didn’t chase the bad guy down the street – Great job!! He called for help and gave a report to the police. Some stories say he was wounded and taken to the hospital. Rob- What else would you like us to do in a similar situation? Candy- The bad guys showed up at a nice school, cased the parking lot, and went “car shopping” as unsuspecting parents dropped off their children. In this environment you want to make sure you are not a potential victim – Keep your head out of your phone. Close and lock your car doors. If you need to defend yourself with your firearm, try to move to a position of cover so you don’t get shot while defending yourself. Better yet, both parents should be armed so that if you should happen to be “selected” you can evacuate the car, if possible, and defend each other from places of cover. Have a plan that includes your daily routine. That might include practicing to draw your rubber gun or your empty gun when you’re sitting in your car in your garage. DO NOT PRACTICE WITH A LOADED FIREARM!! When practicing vehicle defense, it is strongly advised that you attend a training covering this topic so you are not practicing incorrect and/or dangerous skills. Once you have gone through this training, have a training partner watch you in your car so they can see if you accidentally point your gun at (muzzle) people or things you don’t want to shoot. For example, if you were in the back seat and a bad guy jumps into the driver’s seat, can you defend yourself without pointing your gun at the other passengers who are in the car with you? YouTube is great but nothing replaces hands-on training with a qualified instructor. This provides you with the proper techniques to make your practice efficient, effective, and correct. Does your family know how to stop the bleeding on a wounded limb? Again, here is a great opportunity to take training from a qualified instructor and then practice what you have learned with your trained practice buddy. Even better, have your family attend a medical class and then have family medical practice evenings with your medical kit practicing the skills you’ve learned. Remember, medical knowledge is like anything else – If you don’t use it (practice), you’ll lose it. Rob- When do you tell your students about defense in a car, and about medical care? Candy- I consider these to be intermediate topics, so they are discussed in my intermediate courses. New shooters have enough on their minds without trying to be both John Wick and Marcus Welby at the same time. However, my basic pistol students are taught the importance of always having a tourniquet with them and why their next class should be a “Stop The Bleed” class or an equivalent.  What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not change these notes.) The defender immediately responded to being carjacked/kidnapped when the thief jumped into his car and started it. The teenage thief probably didn’t even realize that the husband was in the back seat. The defender was able to draw his gun while seated in the car and shot the thief in the arm. Either the defender or his wife called 911 and they gave statements to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not change these notes.) Best practices says that your car doors should always be closed, locked and have the windows up- whether you are in the car or not. The open driver’s door was a great temptation to the thief and his friends. The wife needs to learn how to be more situationally aware. She should have realized that they were being followed from the school. She could have verified that they were being followed by driving around the block making multiple turns and confirming that the thief’s car made the same turns that they did. Once she verified that they were indeed being followed, the husband should have called 911 while the wife drove to the police station.  Carjackers ALWAYS travel in teams. Once the defender shot the thief who was able to run away, the defender should have bailed out of his car and moved to cover behind one of the wheels or the engine compartment. Neither the car’s body nor the car’s glass would have stopped bullets and he was a “sitting duck” staying inside of the stationary car. That’s why he got shot.  Did the defender’s wife know how to continue the gunfight after her husband was shot? Could the wife have also been armed?  Did either of them know how to stop the bleeding from the gunshot until help arrived? Rob- Where are we headed for our next story? Candy- Our third story happened in Auburn, Washington. Rob- First this message from the Buckeye Firearms Foundation. Buckeye Firearms Foundation https://fastersaveslives.org/ Rob- Third story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? You and your wife are at home. You’re both asleep in bed at 2 in the morning. You’re woken up by someone banging on your front door. It sounds like several people, and they shout that they are the Seattle Police. That is strange because the police usually don’t try to kick down your front door. You grab your gun and your phone. You check your security cameras and see three men in hoodies, ski masks, gloves, and with guns in their hands. None of that looks like the police to you. You move so you can see the front door. The robbers take turns kicking your door, and finally, the door fails. You shoot at them in the doorway. The robbers turn and run. They shoot at your house and the house next door as they run away. It isn’t clear if you or your wife call 911 and ask for help. You put your gun away before the police arrive. You both give statements to the police and show the police your security video. The police are angry that the robbers pretended to be cops. You and your wife are not hurt, but you have to call an emergency locksmith to repair your front door. You are not charged with a crime. Candy- I like it when the defender has his doors and windows locked so the bad guys sound like a herd of horses on a dance floor. I love it that the defender had a video security system that told him, naw, you ain’t the police. The homeowner defended himself and his wife and didn’t get shot. Win, win!!  The news story is somewhat ambiguous if the robbers broke down his door before he started shooting. We’re sure he stayed inside, and called for help. He put his gun away so his hands were empty when the police arrived. Rob- That was a good performance. What should your students do for extra credit? Candy- Oooh. How about both of you being armed?? Have a plan so you know what to do even though you’re half-awake ditzy in the middle of the night. Practice your plan with your family so you respond as a team. Who will check the security video? Who will grab their gun and flashlight and lock the bedroom door? Who will call 911? Where will everyone be in the bedroom while this is happening If the two of you had rehearsed that plan, it would take a dozen bad guys to get to you and your family. That is a lot of insurance for only a small investment of time and attention on your part. Rob- When do your students get to move to cover and shoot at bad guys as they become visible through a doorway? Candy- We’ve run video simulations at some training schools, but the closest thing that most of my students can access are International Defensive Pistol Association or IDPA competitions. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not change these notes.) The defender’s doors were locked and he had security cameras with good lighting.  The defender wisely suspected that the people with masks who were trying to break down his door at 2:00 in the morning were not the Seattle police. Especially since his house was 17 miles from Seattle and out of their jurisdiction.  He checked his security cameras and decided not to open the door. He also brought his gun and his phone with him when he investigated. The defender did not wait until the intruders broke down his door before he started shooting at them through the closed door. Even though the defender could see the intruders on the other side of the door on the security cameras, shooting through a door where you don’t have direct line of sight may be considered reckless endangerment.  Even though Washington has Castile Doctrine and does not require the defender to retreat if attacked in his home, he may have had to wait until the intruders actually come inside before shooting. This depends on which state you live in. Know the use of deadly force laws for your own state because they vary.  Either the defender or his wife called 911 and put the gun away before the police arrived. Be careful not to reholster your gun or put it down too soon. Sometimes the bad guys return before the police get there.  The defender and his wife gave statements to the police. The defender showed the security camera video to the police. Remember to give the police a copy of the files. Digital files get lost or damaged so keep the original files as a back-up. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not change these notes.) From the news report and the story, it sounds like the defender and his wife were the only ones in the house at the time of the attack. Check the notes for the first story above. Could they have stayed in a defensible room, barricaded the door, called 911 and prepared to ambush the intruders? Did the defender move to cover before or after he shot at the intruders who shot back as they ran away? The first goal of self-defense is not to get shot.  Could the wife also have been armed? Two people working as a team are six times more effective than a single defender.  The defender fired several rounds at the intruders but the story doesn’t say if any of them were hit. Hopefully, the defender just missed and was not firing warning shots which are illegal in all but one state. Did he have any ammo left if the intruders had decided to return? Rob- That stands for International Defensive Pistol Association. Where are we going for our last story? Candy- Our fourth story took place in Hollywood Hills, California. Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at home? It has been dark for a few hours. The news reports aren’t clear if you saw something in your backyard or if you heard something first. Now you clearly see a stranger in your backyard. You call 911 to report the intruder. You arm yourself. Around a half hour later, you notice the same man trying to enter one of the doors at the back of your home. You yell for him to leave. The man quickly reaches for something in his pocket or inside his belt. You think he has a gun and you shoot. He steps away. You call 911 and ask for help again. You stay on the line with the dispatcher. You remind them that you are the same woman who called before. You put your gun away when the officers arrive. You show them to the back door. Officers call EMS for help. They take your attacker to the hospital in critical condition. You give a statement to the officers. They take you to the police station for questioning. You are released without being charged. Candy- I love it that this homeowner decided that the world isn’t safe even though she lives in a very well-to-do neighborhood. She bought a gun for self-defense. Here is another victory for locked doors. She armed herself and called the police when she first noticed the problem – An excellent response!! She tried verbal commands. She reacted when she saw a furtive movement. That means the intruder didn’t move with clear intentions, like moving slowly with his hands open. Rob- What would you want your students to do? Candy- Turn on the outside lights and call 911. It is ok to look outside, but please do so from behind cover and away from the doors and windows so you’re a hard target to shoot. Did our defender have a security plan so she knew what to do, or was she depending on luck and instinct?? I’m leaning towards her at least having considered this possibility because she called 911 twice and had the wherewithal to inform 911 that she had called before with the same problem, possibly escalating herself in the police response queue. Walk through your security plan with everyone in your home. Best yet, have all of them armed, trained, and taking an active role in that defense plan. Rob- When do they learn those details about armed defense, home defense, and staying inside the law? Candy- These topics are alluded to and are lightly touched upon during my Basic Pistol classes, but they are greatly expounded upon during my CCW, intermediate, and advanced classes.  What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not change these notes.) The defender noticed a stranger in her yard. She kept an eye out for him after she called 911 for help. She also armed herself in case. The defender attempted to use verbal commands when the stranger tried to force open her back door. The verbal commands failed.  The defender only fired after the stranger made a “furtive movement” which she thought would produce a weapon.  The defender called 911 again for help and reminded them that she had called them just ½ hour before.  The defender put her gun away before the police arrived and she gave a statement.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not change these notes.) The defender was both attentive and armed. She called 911 to report the problem but kept an eye on the stranger’s movements. Did she turn on exterior lights? Did she have motion-activated lights? Go back to the first story again. She probably would have been better off if she had retreated and barricaded while she waited for the police.  Self-defense students need to learn the meaning of: “totality of the circumstances”, “AOJ”, “immediate, lethal and unavoidable situations”  and “furtive movements” before using deadly force. They also need to study the use of deadly force laws for their particular state because they vary. Even if you do everything right, Andrew Branka says you have a 10% chance of getting convicted, especially in Los Angeles.  This defender would benefit from some self-defense classes where she would learn to develop a plan for just such an occasion.  Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Candy, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Candy-  Look for me at the Akron & Northcoast Ohio Chapters of A Girl and a Gun. I also teach at Northpointe Training, (and here> Northpointe Training) in Parma, Ohio. Rob- After you look at Candy articles, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. Candy- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 331 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Ben Branam. What has been keeping you so busy? Ben- Hi, Rob. We got together and recorded an episode of my podcast. I’ve also been teaching firearms classes for a church security team. How about you? Rob- I’ve been exercising my new gun. I sent it out to get an aftermarket barrel and trigger. We didn’t have any new comments this week, but I appreciate that someone shared our episode page on their website. I also want to thank Roger for his help this week. We’re still looking for someone who wants to write or edit this podcast. Someday, all this can be yours. Ben- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. Today we’ll look at a few examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in  Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Rob- First story- Are you armed at home? You’re at your girlfriend’s home on a Wednesday morning. You hear a crashing sound at the door. Your girlfriend and her three year old child run to see what is happening. So do you. You find a stranger with a sledgehammer in his hands. He drops the hammer and takes a gun out of his pants. He shoots at you, your girlfriend, and at her child. You run to your bedroom and grab your gun. You run back and shoot your attacker several times until he drops his gun. The police report isn’t clear what happened next. We don’t know if the attacker ran or if the victims ran. You and your girlfriend check on her child and then call 911. The attacker was your girlfriend’s ex-boyfriend. You put your gun away before the police arrive. You and your girlfriend make a statement to the police. The three of you are banged up, but not wounded. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital with non life threatening injuries. Your attacker is arrested and jailed for three counts of attempted murder, home invasion, and possession of a firearm by a convicted felon. Your girlfriend filed a protective order against her ex, but the order hadn’t been served yet. You are not charged with a crime. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) The defender followed his girlfriend and her 3-year old to check out the noise. He didn’t let them go by themselves. He realized that they were all in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation and that he needed his gun. Fortunately for all of them, his gun was nearby. The defender shot the intruder several times but stopped when the threat ended when the intruder dropped his gun.  The defender checked on the child and his girlfriend. Then he called 911. The defender put his gun away when police arrived and he gave a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) The girlfriend had concerns about her ex-boyfriend which is why she took out a restraining order on him but did she tell her new boyfriend? Did she tell her co-workers, her relatives, her neighbors, etc? The restraining order doesn’t stop an attack but it can provide a legal paper trail and it can act as a warning to the ex. POGO- Pants On Gun On!  The defender should have been carrying his gun on his body. When stuff hits the fan, there is no time to run to another room and get your defensive tool. Get a comfortable holster and carry at home. It would have been a good idea for the girlfriend to have obtained a gun and some training as well. What would have happened to her and her child if her new boyfriend wasn’t home or had gotten shot when her ex broke in? Did she know where the gun was? Did she know how to use it?  Was the handgun in a quick access safe? If the gun was a rifle or shotgun, was the trigger covered by a quick release lock? There was a three-year old child in the home. Leaving a loaded gun out or in a drawer is not an option. Neither is leaving an unloaded gun in the drawer and the ammo in the closet. Both cases can lead to disaster.  Did either the defender or the girlfriend have trauma equipment or training? We are much more likely to need medical equipment than we are to need a gun. Both are important.  The defender and his girlfriend needed a plan. They should have worked out: who would do what, who would take care of the child and where they would go in advance. When the unexpected happens and the adrenaline kicks in, the brain freezes. Creating a plan builds a “library of responses” so your brain doesn’t have to start from scratch. Having a plan and rehearsing it with everyone saves precious seconds that can save lives. Ben-  Always glad to see our good guys are okay in this one.  Scarry thing, someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night (the breakin was at 9AM) and starts shooting at you and your kid.   What they did right:  Retreated Had the gun ready to go And then took the fight to the bad guy Rob- The bad guy made three shots and missed. The good guy shot at least twice and both shots hit. That sounds like they were depending on luck? Ben-  More people then you think miss at close ranges.  It’s been a challenge for decades. More realistic training is upping averages, but law enforcement hit ratio use to be 1 in 6.  So our defender did well and our attacker was average.  Rob-  What about where his gun was stored. Ben-  One major thing we can learn here, the best place for your gun is on you Rob-  What about a plan?  Ben-  I would also like to have not everyone go to see what happened.  Since they where all their they all where in danger. Rob- Don’t go exploring who is there if you’re not prepared to deal with the answer.  Is there more you’d like your students to do that wasn’t mentioned in this news story? Rob- Is there more you want to say about this story, or should we move on? Ben- Our second story happened in Tucson, Arizona. Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public?   You are talking to your friend. You’re both leaning on your cars in the apartment parking lot. It is late at night and two strangers approach you. You both see them. You notice that they have their faces covered. When they get close to you they have guns in their hands. You and your friend are both armed. You shoot your attackers. They run and you stop shooting. You both call 911 and remain at the scene. You give a statement to the police. EMS declares your attackers dead at the scene. News reports say that your attackers were armed, but don’t mention if the police recovered the attacker’s firearms. Neither you nor your friend are charged with a crime. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) Both defenders were carrying when they were attacked. They both recognized that they were in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation and acted accordingly. They both used their situational awareness and noticed the face masks and guns as the robbers approached. They both pulled their guns and shot the attackers until the threat was over. Neither one of the defenders chased after the fleeing attackers. They both called 911, stayed at the scene and gave statements to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) Arizona is one of 27 states that has permitless carry laws. As long as the defenders were over 21 and didn’t have a criminal record these defenders could legally be armed when they were attacked. Transitional Spaces: Parking lots are transitional spaces where we are out in the open and vulnerable from 360 degrees. It was also at night. How much light was there in the parking lot? This wasn’t the best place to stand around to talk, especially late at night. Tactically, they made themselves easy targets. They would have been better off going inside to talk. Did they have enough time to move behind a car or put another car between themselves and the attackers? Did either of the defenders have a flashlight with them? Flashlights can not only help identify a threat but they can also be used to distract or even temporarily blind an attacker.  Did both of them know how to engage multiple targets? Did they both shoot both attackers or did each one of them only shoot one attacker? What if both of the defenders had only shot the same attacker and neither of them shot the second one who was also armed? Two defenders can be much more effective but only if each one knows what the other one is going to do. What if one of the defenders moved in front of the other defender’s line of fire? Did the defenders know how to prioritize which attacker to shoot first if there are multiple attackers? Who’s closer? Who’s got the rifle or shotgun? Who’s the bigger threat? Who’s in the open and who’s closer to cover? Do you shoot every attacker once or do you double-tap each one? Get the training and find out. Ben- Nice to see both of our good guys armed and worked together to defeat two bad guys.  Rob- What do you teach in your class for something like this? Ben- With two armed people, you split.  One goes one way, and one goes the other.  You just have to move laterally so you don’t circle around and create a cross fire, or in other words, the two good guys end up with the bad guys in the middle and have the chance to shoot through the bad guys and hit the other good guys. Rob- That also means that at least one of the bad guys has his back to one of the defenders. That is a plus, but it means we have to be able to shoot an attacker in the back. Most of us don’t train for that. In fact, we train not to shoot someone in the back. How should we train? Ben- Last little point, it’s okay to challenge people early.  Talk to them, say Hi, what’s up?  And tell them to stop when they get close. Rob- Where are we going for our next story? Ben- Our third story happened in Manhattan Beach, California. Rob- First this message from Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership JPFO.org http://jpfo.org/   Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work? You work at a jewelry store. You’re serving a female customer when you notice a group of men enter your store. Five men wearing masks, hoodies, and gloves start smashing your display cases with hammers. You step away from your customer. You shoot at your attackers. They run from the store and dive into a car waiting outside. You need a second to put your gun away. You check on your customer and she isn’t injured. Your employees are shaken but not wounded. You call 911 and ask for help. The store is a mess. You give a statement to the police. It takes you hours to determine that the thieves got some of your jewelry. You give a statement to the police along with in-store and storefront video. The police make one arrest. There was a similar robbery a few years ago at a nearby jewelry store. That is why you’re armed now. You are not charged with a crime.  What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) The defender knew that the jewelry store was a prime target for robbery and he was armed. Hopefully he had his carry permit or he was allowed to carry by law as an owner or employee while in the store. The defender moved away from the customer before engaging the robbers.  The defender did not chase the robbers when they left the store. The defender checked on the customers and employees. The defender put his gun away, called 911 and gave a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) Was the defender facing an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat of major bodily harm or death to himself or other innocent parties? According to the news report and the summary story, this was a “smash and grab” robbery and the people were not threatened. If the video shows that the people were in danger, that’s a different story. We can only use deadly force to defend lives, not property. If the robbers only used the hammers to smash the glass cases then that was a property crime and shooting them would not be justified. If they threatened the people with the hammers then you have a deadly force threat and shooting them is justified. The elements of ability, opportunity and jeopardy come into play. Having the hammers gave the robbers the ability to cause significant injury or death. If the robbers were close enough to strike with the hammers or even to throw the hammers then opportunity is satisfied. The final element, jeopardy is present if the robbers threatened the people in the store by words or actions. If you have all three elements then defending yourself with deadly force is justified. Texas is the only state where use of deadly force to protect property is legal but only under a few conditions. Know the laws for your state. The store should have had a system to limit how many people can enter the store at one time. Many high risk locations have cameras and locks with remote switches to let customers in only one at a time.  Could the defender have pulled the customer into the back room and prepared to ambush the intruders if they came after them? Did the defender and the other employees have a plan in the event of a robbery? Did they have a code word that would put that plan into action? The defender should have locked the doors when the robbers left to prevent them from returning. The defender should have given the police copies of the video footage and not the original files. Video files get lost or damaged and you need to keep the originals as a back-up. Chain of custody must also be considered. Check with your lawyer.   The defender should get some more firearm training. The news report doesn’t say if any of the five robbers were shot and the defender’s bullets had to go somewhere. Did he just “spray and pray”? If you’re going to use a gun for self-defense you need to be able to hit what you’re aiming at when you are under stress. You have to become unconsciously competent.  Did the defender have a self-defense legal plan and lawyer? First you have to survive the physical fight and then you have to survive the legal fight.  Ben-  Our defender was armed.  Our defender changed his angle by stepping away from his customer.   Rob-  What do you mean by angle? Ben-  It’s the hardest thing to teach on a range.  Movement changes everything.  A step left or right can give you clean fields of fire so you keep innocent bystanders from getting hurt. Movement can also put bad guys in line so they have to shoot through their friends to get to you, and it can get other things between you and the bad guy or make those things go away.  Rob- Do you teach movement?  Ben-  Movement is life.  Shoot, Move, Communicate is a mantra in special units for a reason.  If you can out maneuver your attacker then you can easily out do them and win.  Just like in this example and the one before this. Rob- I think this is a tougher problem than it appears. It is clear that the attackers outnumbered the victim. The attackers’ hammers were a deadly blunt instrument that could kill the victim of other bystanders. How does the victim articulate that his life was in danger when he gives a report to the police? Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Ben- Our fourth story took place in Bismarck, North Dakota. Forth Story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? You are at home in bed. It is 3AM when you hear someone moving furniture around in your home. You shout for your wife to call 911. You see a naked stranger in your kid’s empty room. You grab your gun and tell the intruder to stop. You hold the intruder at gunpoint. You put your gun away as the police arrive. Police arrest your intruder. The intruder entered your home through an unlocked back door. He says he was looking for his clothes. Police can’t tell if he is high or drunk. Neither you nor your wife have seen the man before this morning.  You and your wife give a statement to the police. Your intruder is charged with felony burglary, misdemeanor criminal mischief and disorderly conduct. He is held on a $5,000 cash bond. You’re not charged. Tag- no shots fired. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) The defender didn’t ignore the noise and just go back to sleep. He went to investigate. The defender yelled for his wife to call 911 while he obtained his gun and confronted the intruder. The defender recognized that he was not in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat so he did not shoot the intruder. The defender used verbal commands and held the intruder at gunpoint until the police arrived.  The defender put his gun away when police arrived. Both the defender and his wife made statements to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) The defender should have taken his gun and a flashlight with him when he investigated the noise. You can’t assume that you will have the time to go find/load your defensive weapon when the unexpected happens.  The defender held the intruder at gunpoint until the police arrived. Did he know how to do that properly? Did he keep his distance and put cover or concealment between himself and the intruder? Did he know how to minimize the intruder’s ability to attack or run? Did he know how to hold his gun at low ready and not shoot the intruder by accident? Did he know when to shoot and when not to shoot if the intruder moved?  Where were the defender’s wife and children while he was holding the intruder. Would they all have been safer if the defender had just let the intruder leave? The defender and his family need to have a plan in case of a home invasion including making sure the home’s perimeter is reinforced and secure.  Ben-  Our defenders worked together to take care of this situation.  This is one of those scary ones too.  For whatever reason, this couple’s kid wasn’t home on this night.  Sometimes dumb luck is in your favor, but don’t count on it. I really liked that our defender didn’t shoot this guy when he didn’t have to.  Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. Rob-  Don’t some TV shows and hero movies teach to shoot all the bad guys and that’s a good thing?  Ben-  Every TV show and movie do, and we think that is a good idea, but it’s not.  First, we are the good guys and we don’t go around shooting people because we can, legally or not.  We don’t do it because it’s the right thing to do. But more importantly, take it from someone who has beenthere and done that, if you shoot and kill someone, it will change you forever.  It’s something you have ot live with.  Your family, friends, and coworkers will see you and treat you differently.  It’s a horrible burden to live with that takes years to get right again.  You don’t deserve that. So I really liked this one.  These are the best outcomes for self defense gun uses.  No one is hurt, the bad guy goes to jail.  You can’t ask for a better outcome. Exit-   Rob- That wraps up this episode. Ben Branam, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Ben- I teach armed self-defense and church security. I live in San Antonio, and most of my classes are in central Texas. Sign up for my classes at Modern Self Protection.com, and subscribe to my podcast called Modern Self-Protection. Rob- After you look at Ben articles and his videos, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. Ben- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- Like Ben’s podcast, this show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 330 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Tony Simon. What have you been doing since we talked? Tony- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been working on diversity shoots. I have them every two weeks here in New Jersey. How about you? Rob- We received new ratings and comments on iTunes. Jason has been listening for about six months. He was surprised at how often ordinary citizens use a firearm for self defense. He likes that we talk about some of the best practices that aren’t included in the news. Steve Abella left us a message on Facebook about a bad example of armed defense. A man and a woman were being carjacked. The robber had her gun out. The robber looked away and the male defender used that opportunity to present his gun. He told the robber to drop her gun. She didn’t. Instead, she shot the male victim. The victim shot back, but he later died of his gunshot wounds, while the robber survived hers. There is a time to talk and a time to shoot. The link to the story is on the episode webpage. https://www.msn.com/…/woman-who-posed-as…/ar-AA1hI4Td… Roger Temple gave us his talking points again this week. Thank you to Roger, to Steve, and to Jason. Tony- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Midwest City, Oklahoma. Rob- First story- Are you armed at home? You’re at home on a weekday morning. You hear a crashing sound from the middle of your house. You move toward the sound and see a man standing in the middle of your home. You shout for him to leave. He moves toward you. You run to get your gun. You turn back to your attacker when he lunges for you. You shoot him in the chest and he stops advancing. You stop shooting. You back up and shout for your girlfriend to call 911. You put your gun away as the police arrive. EMS takes your attacker to the hospital. You and your girlfriend give statements to the police. Your attacker is your girlfriend’s ex-husband. You never met him before. Your attacker is charged with first-degree burglary and with stalking. You are not charged with a crime. Tony- I like that the defender owned a firearm for self-defense. I love that his doors and windows were locked. That forced the intruder to make noise as he broke into the home. It also forced the intruder to leave evidence of the breakin. The defenders reacted to the breakin and the male homeowner went to see what was happening. He grabbed his gun. He gave a verbal warning. He shot the intruder as the intruder advanced, and then stopped shooting when the intruder turned away. The defenders didn’t chase the bad guy as he ran. They stayed inside their home. There was a team effort so the female homeowner called 911 and asked for help. The male homeowner put his gun away and had empty hands when the police arrived. They identified themselves to the police. We want to say something like.. We’re the homeowner and we called you. We had to defend ourselves. The bad guy ran away. We’ll give you a complete statement after we talk to our lawyer, but here is the broken door that is evidence of the breakin. I defended us with a firearm. The firearm is inside the house. That is when you be quiet. Maybe you call your lawyer while your girlfriend was on the phone with 911? Rob- Are there other things we should do that aren’t mentioned in the news story? Tony- If the man and woman were the only ones home, when they investigate I want both of them armed. Every loud noise isn’t a criminal breaking into your home. It could be anything, from a car accident, to a tree falling or many random things in between.  The intruder was the woman’s ex-husband. He was harassing her and stalking her. I want her to take out a restraining order. When you have a crazy and violent ex, then you tell your friends about him, your neighbors and you certainly tell your boyfriend about him. This is one of the reasons to hand self defense insurance. The chances were high that he was going to show up at her home, and he did. Rob- When do your students learn about armed defense in the home? Tony- Strange that you ask, but we have a class that is called Home Defense- Handgun.  Rob- Do you have a class called what to do with your crazy ex? Tony- No, we take that one on a case by case basis, but from what we’re reading in the news, maybe we should start a group class. We talk about the legal use of lethal force in each class, but particularly in our concealed carry classes, and in our continuing education classes. You keep training after you have your carry permit. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) The defender responded to the crashing sound in the house. The defender tried using verbal commands and told the intruder to leave but that failed. Then the defender retreated and grabbed his gun. The defender shot the intruder with one shot to the chest when the intruder lunged at him.  The defender stopped shooting when the intruder stopped advancing. The defender stepped back from the intruder while the girlfriend called 911. The gun was put away and both the defender and his girlfriend gave the police statements. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) Since the defender and his girlfriend were the only occupants of the house, best practices says that they should have retreated to a defensible room, barricaded the door, called 911 and prepared to ambush the intruder if he came in after them.  The defender should have at least taken his gun with him when he decided to investigate the loud crash because he was possibly walking into a very dangerous situation with a number of unknown variables. He didn’t know how many intruders there were, where they were and if they were armed.  Did the girlfriend have a restraining order on her ex-husband? Did she tell her new boyfriend that her ex-husband was violent? Did she tell the neighbors to be on the look out for him? If the defender and the girlfriend were both armed and trained, they would have made a much more effective defensive team.  Tony- The defender needed to be armed(pants on/gun on). The ex husband had called/ texted his ex-wife over 170 times. The police needed to be called and a restraining order made against this person, the neighbors needed to know also. It’s very, very important to warn the neighbors that a threat is near and tell them who to look out for in case he shows up while you’re not home. Tell them to call the police immediately.  Rob- What else do you see in this story?  Tony- The defender fired one shot and his attacker ran off. I want you to train in good marksmanship fundamentals so you hit the target quickly and accurately. Also, learn to evaluate your results through your sights by keeping the gun pointed at the bad guy. You may have to fire at your attacker again due to you missing or the threat not immediately changing their behavior.  Rob- How do I learn that? Tony- Taking firearms classes that are self defense oriented helps you learn skills like controlled, aimed multiple shots on target.  Rob- Is there more you want to say about this story, or should we go on? Tony- Lets go to our second story in Chicago, Illinois. Rob- Second Story- Are you armed as you drive? Accidents happen. You drive a tow truck to untangle the mess that drivers make out of afternoon traffic. The good news is that the cars and a large city bus are already on the side of the highway. No one was injured during the accidents. You park your truck and start talking to the drivers to see if they need a tow. You look up when you hear gunshots. You see one of the passengers cry out and fall down. You duck behind an SUV and hear bullets hit the car. You have your Illinois firearms owners identification card. You have your concealed carry permit. You’re armed today. You shoot back at the passenger in the white dodge SUV who is shooting at bystanders. The attacker drives away. You stop shooting. With an accident this size, police are already on their way. It isn’t clear if you or another passenger called 911 to ask for EMTs. You reholster you firearm. You identify yourself to the officers and show them your paperwork. They ask you to stay at the scene. Now you wish you had a full video system on your truck. The wounded bystander worked for the Chicago Transit Authority and was sorting out the damaged vehicles when you arrived. He is taken to the hospital for treatment of a non-life threatening leg wound. The next day, you saw that two other tow truck drivers were shot, and one was killed. You’re not charged with a crime. Tony- The defender knew that he had a dangerous job in a dangerous city. He had taken the time, the money and the effort to get his concealed carry license in Chicago which is neither easy nor cheap. The defender ducked behind an SUV for cover when bullets started flying. Our first job is to not get shot. The defender decided to shoot back. The defender stopped shooting when the shooter’s car left the scene. The defender didn’t chase the bad guys down the road. He stayed at the scene, holstered his gun and talked to the police. Rob- What else do you see in this story? Tony- It isn’t clear if the defender was protecting other people or protecting himself until the bad guys drove away. I want you to call 911 even if the police are already on their way. Situations change, and now we need EMTs and ambulances on the scene. Particularly if you’re around people and equipment, take a stop the bleed class and have a medical kit. I’d like you to be able to treat the CTA supervisor who was wounded. Also, call your lawyer and don’t talk to the news. Rob- Remind me why I need a lawyer? Tony- Oh, Rob, there are teams of lawyers who will descend on the passengers and ask if they were hurt in the bus crash. They will file lots of lawsuits that blame CTA for all kinds of injuries, pain, and suffering. They will claim that your armed defense traumatized the passengers. You want to have lawyers to sue them right back. This is considered a financial opportunity for many people. I’m sure there will be more people claiming to be on that bus than there were seats on the bus. I’ve heard of it happening before, the police actually charged the people that made false reports. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) The defender knew that he had a dangerous job in a dangerous city. He had taken the time, the money and the effort to get his concealed carry license in Chicago which is neither easy nor cheap. The defender ducked behind an SUV for cover when bullets started flying. The defender stopped shooting when the shooter’s car left the scene. The defender stayed at the scene, holstered his gun and talked to the police. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) It sounds like the defender used a great deal of restraint and didn’t just spray the area with a lot of unaimed bullets. He only fired two shots when he saw the shooter take aim at him before he fired his own gun. It would be a good idea for the defender to take a “Stop the Bleed” class and carry a first aid trauma kit with him since he probably works a lot of traffic accidents with injuries. According to the news website, the defender made a statement to the news reporter off camera without a lawyer. Best practices say you should only discuss a critical incident with your lawyer and let him or her make any comments to the news media and any detailed statements to the police. “Lawyer up and shut up!”  Tony-  I tell students to allow your lawyers to make most of your statements to the police and all of your statements to the press.  Also it is important for all people, armed defenders or not, to take a trauma care medical class. Some kind of Stop the Bleed class or first aid class. Watching a person pass away in your presence because you have no skills to help them is avoidable. Get training.  Rob- Where are we going for our third story?  Tony- Our next story happened in Arlington, Texas. Rob- First this message from the second amendment foundation. Second Amendment Foundation https://www.saf.org/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work? The surge is done for the day and you get a chance to breathe. You’re lining up the work for tomorrow. It is Thursday evening and you work in the service department of a car dealership. You hear a crashing sound from the front of the building and you wonder if someone drove a car into the showroom. You hear people scream. You get up to see if you can help. You see a man with a rifle standing in the showroom. He is pointing the rifle at customers and employees. You shoot at him. He shoots back and retreats to the parking lot. You stop shooting. Police arrive a few minutes later. Again, the attacker points a gun at the police and is shot. EMS takes the attacker to the hospital. You put your gun away. You give a statement to the police. The attacker was a former employee. The only person wounded was the attacker. You’re not charged. Tony- I’m glad that our defender was armed. He responded when he heard unexpected noises like the gunshots that shattered the front windows and people screaming and running. He got his gun because this could be a gun problem. He recognized an immediate and lethal threat to innocent people. He shot at the attacker until the attacker ran back into the parking lot. He didn’t chase the bad guy. He put his gun away when the police arrived. He identified himself and gave a brief statement to the police. Rob- Is there more that you’d like us to do if we hear shots at work or in public? Tony- There is. Please get your permit, take a defensive firearms class and learn your state’s deadly force laws, so you understand when you can and can’t use your gun. Even if you live in a Constitutional Carry state. Have legal insurance so you have a lawyer to help you fill out the police report. You have to explain that you took the safest actions you could. It was safer to shoot at the bad guy than to leave running through the dealership him pointing his gun at innocent customers and employees. Since you don’t do that for a living, then you want your lawyer to help you. Until the police arrive, you want to have your gun in your holster with your hand on the gun and be behind cover. You don’t want to be standing and visible to the public with a gun in your hand because the police might shoot you. Dealerships have a lot of windows, you never know if the police will see a “man with a gun” through one of those windows and that “man” is you.  By becoming the defender, you probably shouldn’t be running around checking on people. Let other people do that. You’re going to watch and make sure the bad guy doesn’t come back. Don’t stand up and become a target until you’re sure the threat is gone.  In a perfect world, you know who is armed at work, and who has medical training. Does your business have a medical kit. Also, I’d like you to carry your firearm on your body. It isn’t safe if you leave it in your desk drawer. Your holster is also a place to put your firearm after you’re done using it. In a public place like a dealer showroom, you don’t want to put your gun down on the ground and then walk away from it. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) Texas is a permitless carry state and the defender was carrying his gun at work that day. The defender responded when he heard the loud crash and people screaming The defender saw the suspect pointing a rifle at the customers and employees and he fired at the suspect. The defender stopped shooting when the suspect retreated to the parking lot.  The defender doesn’t put his gun away until after the police fired and stopped the suspect.  The defender gave a statement to the police. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) The defender provided some resistance to the suspect’s plan. The defender provided cover fire and kept the suspect away from the customers and the employees until the police arrived. How much ammo did he have? Once the police arrived the defender backed off and let them do their job. It would have been better if there were more than one defender to keep the suspect at bay or even to stop the suspect sooner. Every commercial company/store should have the equipment and a few trained people to provide trauma first aid.  Is having a gun at work in Texas a violation of law or just a violation of company policy? Is the defender’s employer going to thank him for helping to save many lives or are they going to fire him for having a gun at work?  Tony-  The defender had his firearm at work with him. He heard screaming and went to investigate, prepared with an armed response if necessary. He immediately fired upon the armed attacker. He didn’t chase the attacker out of the dealership. He waited on the police and answered their questions.  Tony-  I would talk to my students about setting up a first aid trauma kit at work and talk to their management about hosting voluntary classes. I would also discuss marksmanship fundamentals, dry firing, taking defensive shooting classes and shooting in competition. Our defender succeeded in driving the attacker out of the building. Missing the attacker left him as a threat to others in the building. Hitting the bad guy and incapacitating them removes them as a threat. Hits end gunfights significantly faster than missing. The better and more confident we are in our skills the better we are at stopping threats immediately.  Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Tony- Our fourth story took place in Haymarket, Virginia. Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public? Church services are in progress. You’re part of the security team standing watch in the back hallway. You see a man walk into the church through the back entryway wearing a black trench coat and sunglasses. That doesn’t make sense given the weather outside. You contact the security center and ask for backup. They see the suspect on video. You approach the suspect and start talking to him. You welcome him to the church. The security center says the intruder fits a profile of a known threat. Your partner arrives, and you keep talking to the suspect. He doesn’t take off his glasses inside or meet your eyes or shake your hand. You ask him how you can help him, if he is interested in hearing a particular service or attending a particular ministry. He acts as if he doesn’t know about your church and the regular church services. You tell him about the church as you stall for time. A police officer working at the church verifies that a known suspect’s car is in the parking lot. Your partner moves behind the suspect. The police officer enters the building and arrests the suspect. The suspect made online threats against the church that morning. Someone called the police to report the threats. The suspect is charged with making threats of bodily harm and carrying dangerous weapons to a place of religious worship. You file a report and go back to work. Tag- No Shots Fired Tony-  Wow. This is an unusual story because the defender was more than an ordinary citizen and he was not sworn law enforcement who can make an arrest in public. This story tells us a lot. Things do not come together like that by luck. It is amazing that the church put together a security team, educated the team members, and then rehearsed what to do in different scenarios. It sounds like they rehearsed both with each other, and with local law enforcement. It is wonderful that a neighbor saw something on social media and said that the threats against the church don’t seem right. It was more than complaining that the sermon was too long or too short. She called the police. The police contacted the church and the police investigated the attacker’s home. The church staff worked together as a team and that saved lives. Someone verified that the report was from the police, and then took the report from the police and put the information to work. They shared it with the off-duty officer who was patrolling the church. It was shared with the person monitoring the video monitors. We don’t know if the suspect description was given to all the staff. I like that the staff member at the back door was paying attention at what could be a boring post. Not many people come in the back door, but he recognized how unusual it was for someone to enter the church wearing a black trenchcoat and dark glasses at that time of year and in that weather. He paid attention to the body language. The defender asked for help, and engaged the suspect to get more information. The off-duty police officer took the situation seriously and responded quickly. Together, they disarmed an armed attacker without having to fire a shot. Maybe they didn’t have to present their firearm. They also acted in a way that preserves evidence for the attacker’s prosecution. Very well done. Rob- Lots of churches have some sort of security team. How do they operate? Tony- Like the rest of the church, a governing board appoints a head of security and that person sets up the team. They often work closely with the person who manages facilities and the operating staff. The person who watches video monitors might be on the facilities staff. The greeters who meet every person outside the church doors are often on the welcoming committee. All of them can also be a member of the security team. Someone has to schedule that team so that staff or parishioners are protected whenever they are on the property. That is a lot of work. There are dedicated organizations that focus on church security. The faith based security network is one of them, but there are also regional groups. Grant Cunningham wrote Praying Safe. Contact Ben Branam at Modern Self-Protection. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) It sounds like the defender and the other members of the church security team were skilled in situational awareness. They were already suspicious of the suspect before they got the warning from the police.  The team communicated well and they obviously had a plan when they got the warning about a possible attack.  Two security members and one police officer approached the suspect, calmly delayed him and then arrested him without incident. Kudos to the person who saw the online posts and informed the police. And kudos to the multiple police departments for working together so well.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THESE NOTES.) Unfortunately, churches, mosques and synagogues are frequent targets for active shooters just like our schools. The mentally ill people who attack these institutions are all looking for the same thing- they want to be famous. The higher the body count, the more notoriety, the better they like it. They are even willing to die for it.  If you want to help keep your family and friends safe in these situations, get the training and join a security team so you can work together for the best results. Two armed carriers are seven times more effective than a single carrier working alone.   One of the guest instructors for this podcast, Ben Branam, specializes in teaching church security. He can help you and your church set up a security team. Make sure that you check the laws in your jurisdiction.  Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Tony, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Tony- Find me at Diversityshoot.com  I’m also on Instagram and facebook at Simon Says Train, and at The 2nd is For Everyone podcast. Rob- After you look at Tony articles, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. Tony- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 329 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor David Cole. What has been keeping you so busy? David- Hi, Rob. I took a training course near you in Robert, Louisiana. Chris Cerino was one of the instructors, and I know you’ve trained with him. How about you? Rob- I’ve been traveling for the last few weeks. I went to a second amendment fundraising event in San Diego, and then to the Gun Rights Policy Conference in Phoenix. Thank you to everyone who attended. I came back with a cold so we missed a podcast. In the meantime, we received three new comments and several new ratings on iTunes(361,197) Custer likes the short format for the news and that we include both comments and recommendations of best practice. Jacob says we help with his mental preparations, and in making a home defense plan. Another listener called our podcast an important part of self-defense education. We add to his “library of responses” so he won’t freeze. He pointed out that we now have over 100 hours of content. He called the podcast both informative and entertaining. David- Thank you for the comments. It is nice to know that someone is listening, and to know what you like and dislike. We also want to say thank you to Roger and Michael who helped us again this week. Rob- Please help us connect with new listeners. Go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. David- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Las Vegas, Nevada. Rob- First story- Are you armed at home? You’re at home with your 70 year old dad. It is about 9 in the morning when you both hear a crashing sound at the back door. You grab your gun. You see two men wearing masks, gloves, and dark clothing. They are slamming themselves against your back door. You fire through the door and the two men run away. You stop shooting. Your dad calls the police. You both stay inside. You put your gun away when the police are nearby. You let the officers into your house and show them the back door. You describe your attackers. EMS declares one of your attackers dead in your backyard. Police get reports of a wounded man in a car nearby. The car matches the security videos taken from the neighborhood. The man is dressed like your attackers and he has a wounded leg. He is taken to the hospital for treatment and is in police custody. You are not charged with a crime. Police report that there were similar break ins in the same neighborhood that morning. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT MAKE CHANGES TO THESE NOTES.) Fortunately, the defender’s doors were locked so the intruders had to make noise while breaking down the door. This gave the defender a warning and a small amount of time to act. The defender realized that he and his dad may be in a dangerous situation and he grabbed his gun as a precaution.  The defender verified that the intruders were trying to force their way in through the door so he fired on them until the bad guys ran away. He then stopped shooting and did not chase the bad guys. The defender’s dad called 911.  The defender put his gun away when the police arrived. The defender showed the police the broken door as evidence and gave the police a description of the intruders. His descriptions helped the police find the intruders. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT MAKE CHANGES TO THESE NOTES.) Could the father and son have retreated to a defensible room, barricaded the door and prepared to ambush the intruders if they came looking for them? The defender had a gun close at hand and he did not hesitate to grab it in case he needed it when he went to investigate the noise. Hopefully, the defender sought concealment or cover before engaging the intruders. The first goal of self-defense is not to get shot.  Nevada is a “Castle Doctrine” state but how that law applies varies state by state. You have to learn the laws for your own state or consult a lawyer. In some states, the “Castle Doctrine” only applies to the homeowner which was the 70 year old, not the son in this case. Also, some states require that an intruder has to penetrate one of the four exterior walls of the home in order for a shooting to be justified. In this case, the defender shot the intruders through the door while they were still outside. This area is called “curtilage”. Curtilage includes the area immediately surrounding a dwelling, and it counts as part of the home for many legal purposes but only in some states.   The attack took place at 9:00 in the morning. Bad guys don’t make appointments. They attack anyone, anywhere and at any time. Hopefully, the 70 year old dad will keep a firearm very close at hand in case his son isn’t home when intruders arrive.   David- The defenders decided that the world wasn’t a safe place so he bought a firearm for self-defense. They had their doors and windows locked. That forced the robbers to make noise and take extra time to break into their home. Our defender either had his gun on his person, or nearby, so he could use it immediately even on a weekday morning. If we’re going to go investigate a strange noise in our home then we need to be able to respond to what we find. The defender recognized that two masked men breaking into his home was an immediate threat to him and his elderly father. He stopped the attack and then stopped shooting. I note that his shots hit both attackers. The homeowners stayed at the scene and didn’t chase the bad guys across the yard and over the fences. The defenders were working together so dad called 911 for help and got the police on their way. They made sure their hands were empty when the police arrived. They both gave a brief statement to the officers and told them what happened. Rob- Are there other important details that weren’t mentioned in the news report? David- I’d like all the adults in the home to be armed. We also need a plan and to walk through that plan a number of times. We want habits in place so we know what to do when we’re surprised. Distance is to our advantage, so we don’t have to be in the same room as the attackers. We can be in the next room and behind concealment as we watch the back door. Shooting through the door is very risky. It is best practice to wait until they break in before you defend yourself, both for reasons of positive target ID and better marksmanship. Rule 4 applies all the time…be sure of your target and what lies it beyond it. These defenders have to explain why two men who were outside the house posed an immediate and lethal threat. We want to have a lawyer to call because he knows how to present the critical points of our case. He will do an infinitely better job than you will. Rob- When do your students learn about the legal limits in our use of lethal force? David- That is talked about in our concealed carry classes, and in more advanced classes. Rob- Is there more you want to cover in this story, or should we go on? David- We covered the important points. We’re staying out west and going to Mesa, Arizona. Rob- Second Story- Are you armed as you return home? It is Tuesday night when you arrive back home. You live with two women. As you arrive home you’re attacked by four strangers who are inside your home. You present your firearm and shoot at them until they run away. You find your roommates tied up in the bathroom. They have been pepper sprayed and beaten for over an hour while the intruders ransacked your home. You call the police and ask for help. The three of you give statements to the police. Police find the two women who attacked you at the hospital. They are seeking treatment for gunshot wounds. You recognize one of the men who attacked you. He was inside your home a few hours ago asking for work. He made sure the back door was unlocked and that you’d left home before he and his three accomplices broke into your apartment. Your roommates will recover. Your attackers are charged with kidnapping, aggravated robbery, and burglary. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT MAKE CHANGES TO THESE NOTES) The defender was attacked by four intruders as soon as he arrived home. He didn’t freeze. He recognized that he was in immediate, lethal and unavoidable danger. He drew his gun and fired, hitting two of the assailants. The defender stopped shooting when the attackers turned and ran. He did not pursue them. The defender checked on his roommates and then called 911 for help. The victims and the defender all gave statements to the police. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT MAKE CHANGES TO THESE NOTES) The victims thought that their sliding glass door was locked but one of the attackers had unlocked it when he was in the apartment previously. A sliding door safety bar can be purchased for about $15 and easily installed. This type of safety bar not only stops the door from being forced open, it also provides a visual verification that the sliding patio door is secure even at a distance.  The female victims may have saved themselves if they too were armed and trained in self-defense. Each person needs to be their own First Responder.  The defender was facing four intruders. Did he have sufficient ammunition to stop all four of them if they had decided to continue their attack or if they had been armed? Even trained police officers usually only get hits about 30% of the time and it usually takes two good, upper-chest hits to stop an attacker no matter which pistol caliber is used. Did the defender have a 5 or 6 shot revolver or a single-stack semi-automatic? Would that have been enough?  This was a case of “psychological stop” not a “physical stop”. The defender fired one shot and the four intruders decided to turn and run. That’s not always the case. We have to train to fire multiple shots and hit multiple attackers while we are moving to cover/concealment so we don’t get shot. What kind of ammunition did the defender use? The one shot that the defender fired went through the first female intruder then continued on and wounded the second female intruder. Usually, jacketed hollow point bullets used for self-defense don’t do that. Maybe he was using full metal jacket training ammo (FMJ). New Jersey is the only state that forbids the use of jacketed hollow point ammo (JHP). Another consideration when buying self-defense ammo is that you want to buy ”low muzzle flash” ammo. Using the “regular, bright muzzle flash” ammo can temporarily blind you if you fire in dim light conditions. Speer Gold Dot ammo has low muzzle flash.     David- The defender recognized that being attacked by four people was an immediate, unavoidable and lethal threat. Being outnumbered was a clear disparity of force that justified the use of lethal force in self-defense. He shot his attackers until they ran away. He did not chase them down the street, but found his roommates and then called for police and medical help. The defender made sure his hands were empty when the officers arrived. The victims stayed at the scene and gave brief statements to the police. It doesn’t say if they needed medical help, but I’d guess that the women did. I also bet they offered to testify against their attackers. Rob- What is best practice to keep us safe in our homes? David- Please be very careful of who you allow access to your home. Don’t let strangers wander unsupervised through your home. Put a bar in the track of the sliding glass door.  I want all of the adults armed at home so all of you can defend yourself. Practice at the range so you can engage multiple targets quickly. It isn’t unusual to be able to put two shots into each of three targets in under four seconds. When we go to the range, we often take our time and shoot a single target. That is fine for marksmanship training, but that isn’t enough for armed defense. There are more advanced classes on armed defense that you take after you have your carry permit. Rob- What are those advanced classes called? David- They might be beyond concealed carry, firearms presentation and self-defense, or combat handgun. Rob- What else did you notice in this story? David- We’ve touched on this before. A small 5 shot revolver is an expert’s gun. When we look at police shootings, they only hit with one out of five of their shots. It is a one attacker gun in a two attacker world. In this case there were four attackers. Even if they only have fists, then you face a very serious threat. I know you can shoot them, but can you stop them with five shots? Then you have to go hand-to-hand with that many attackers because you’re out of ammunition. If you have a revolver then I hope that all of you are armed. Rob- And we know the attackers had pepper spray because they used it on the two women they tied up. David- Right. The attackers had a plan. We need to have a defensive plan too so we don’t freeze while we sort out what to do. Rob- Where are we going for our next story?  David- Our third story happened in Fall City, Washington. Rob- First this message from Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership DRGO DRGO https://drgo.us/ Rob- Third story- Do you have a firearm nearby in the middle of the night? It is four in the morning on Monday. You are sleeping in the back room of your gun shop. You are woken up by a horrible crashing sound and the entire building shakes. You roll out of bed and grab your gun. You turn on the lights and shout that you’re armed. You see several men run away from the front of your store. You call the police and tell them what happened. You give a statement to the police when they arrive. Robbers drove a stolen car through the front door of your store. You have someone at the store every night. You have to replace your front door and put stone and steel columns in front of your store. There are about 28 gun stores robbed each year in Washington State. Tag- No Shots Fired David- I’ve worked in a gun shop and everyone goes armed during the day. The reason the criminals had to use a car to crash through the front door was because the door was secure. Good for the defenders. The security bars were in place and it would take too long to break in by hand. All that physical security did what it was supposed to do. It bought the defender time. Our defender had a plan and he’d rehearsed it so that he could respond in the middle of the night. He rolled out of bed. He grabbed his gun. He moved to a defensible position and gave a verbal warning. That solved the immediate problem. Let’s add bollards outside the store. Let’s add motion detectors and automatic lights all around the store and at the front of the store. Let’s add video cameras and alarms that tell the police there has been a break in. Maybe it is time to replace the front windows with solid walls. I prefer precast concrete to cinder block. Since we’re trying to keep people safe, let’s have the store employees armed before they arrive at work and also armed as they leave. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT MAKE CHANGES TO THESE NOTES) The gun shop owner realized that his guns were a highly prized target for theft. He had a security plan. He responded immediately when the thieves drove through the shop’s door. He grabbed his gun, turned on the lights and gave verbal warnings which worked in this case. He gave a statement to the police.  His plan to provide stone and steel columns at the front door is a good start.   What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT MAKE CHANGES TO THESE NOTES) While many of us in the gun community and even in the retail sales community applaud the gun shop owner’s efforts, this security method is quite risky in a number of ways. First of all, whoever sleeps in the closed store could very easily be out-gunned and killed. If an employee gets killed while trying to stop a robbery by himself, his heirs would probably sue the shop owner. Gun thieves are very determined and usually ruthless. There have been cases where thieves have used bulldozers and cranes with wrecking balls to break into gun shops and jewelry stores. Also, legally, there have been cases of district attorneys filing criminal charges of voluntary manslaughter and criminal negligence against store owners who sleep in their stores because they killed a thief who was “enticed” to steal. Check with your lawyer before using this type of security method.  Adding bollards (stone and steel columns) to the front of the store is a good start but he also needs to add them all the way around the building depending on what the exterior walls are made of.  Reinforcing the walls/windows is good but he also needs to keep the thieves from cutting into the roof, entering via the ventilation system or tunneling under the walls too. Many gun shops and jewelry stores move the merchandise to a metal vault instead of trying to make the entire building theft proof.     Rob- Where are we going for our last story? David- Our fourth story took place in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at work? People are lined up across the counter, out the door, and around the corner. Customers stand under a shade tent outside as they wait to order cheesesteak sandwiches. Jimmy’s Cheesesteaks is open from noon until midnight. You stand outside wearing an armored plate carrier and with an AR rifle slung across your chest. You are a licensed security guard. You walk back and forth along the line so that the customers aren’t robbed. You talk to the customers and they talk to you. The work has been easy so far. Across Philadelphia, dozens of customers were robbed this year, but not here. Several dozen stores were looted this week, but not at Jimmy’s. The gas station on the corner has an armed guard too. The work is mostly outdoors. The shifts will get harder this winter when the weather changes, but at least the food is good. David- We have to get a little philosophical to talk about this. The politicians in Philadelphia worked hard to eliminate a culture of armed defense. That said, you can get a carry permit in Philadelphia, and you should. Unfortunately, crime and violence are out of control with frequent carjackings, robberies, and open looting of stores. People don’t feel safe on the streets, particularly at night. I say that so we understand the environment where this store owner made this decision to provide openly armored and armed guards. Most customers will feel safer with the uniformed guards protecting them. Some customers will feel threatened. Those customers may not visit the store as often. Even though the armed guards cost money, the owners think they will make more money by defending their customers than if they let their customers be robbed. The gas station on the corner faced the same problem and they reached the same conclusion. This is the same sort of balancing decision we all make when we decide to protect ourselves. Should we carry or should we not? Should we carry openly or concealed? With your carry permit, you can open carry in Philadelphia, so you don’t need to be a security guard. Rob- You’ve been paid to carry a gun openly in public. Talk to me about the liability of using a gun as a security guard. David- Each of us is responsible for every action we take. If I see a pair of criminals robbing a customer, then I have the choice of defending her or not. I’m allowed to use lethal force as long as she has the right to use lethal force. An interesting fact is that the law holds the surviving criminal responsible for murder if I kill his partner. (What does the law say about you injuring a bystander or the murderers injuring a bystander?) Rob- I noticed that the store owners were conducting an experiment. They are open a few days a week where there are no armed guards. We’ll find out if they get more customers then, or on the day the customers are protected. David- They can tell if the protection was worth the costs. It is true that a private guard and a private security company will often have more liability insurance, but a security guard is treated the same way as a civilian in the eyes of the law. We will be asked to explain how our actions were the safest thing we could do. The decisions are not that complicated; I shot the robber who had a gun pointed at a customer because I thought it was safer than waiting for her or others to be shot. Here is what I studied that made me reach that conclusion, and this is where I was trained so that I could safely take those actions. Perfect solutions are not part of the equations. There are better solutions and worse ones. I want you to be armed rather than to depend on an armed security guard. And did you think of this; just like the police, that security guard has no obligation to protect you and your family. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T. PLEASE DO NOT MAKE CHANGES TO THESE NOTES) Like many other situations, the best approach to analyze this is to make a list of pros and cons. Ben Franklin, who was from Philadelphia, was famous for his lists:  PROS: Many customers feel safer seeing an armed guard that they believe will protect them from being robbed. Will the armed guards actually do that or are they just for show? The steak shop sells more steak sandwiches because their customers are not afraid of standing in line with money.   CONS: Some customers are going to be turned away when they see armed security. Some people are so adverse to seeing AR-15s that they will refuse to buy anything from that shop. The steak shop has to charge more than the usual price for each sandwich in order to cover the costs of having armed security. The armed security is only going to be present from Thursday to Sunday. No security from Monday to Wednesday? What legal liabilities is the steak shop going to incur if one of the armed guards misses his target and hits an innocent by-stander? If the lines to buy sandwiches are around the block, how many armed security guards are needed? Are the armed guards going to be there if it rains? If it snows?  CONCLUSION: As long as a person is over 21, lives in Pennsylvania and doesn’t have a criminal record, they can obtain their License to Carry a Firearm from Pennsylvania for $20. The license is good for 5 years and does not require any training (although it is highly recommended.) Getting the license to carry, obtaining a gun and getting some training provides each person with 24/7/365 armed security wherever they go- not just at this steak shop. If you want to “FEEL SAFE” go ahead and outsource your personal security to someone else. If you truly want to “BE SAFE”, get the tools and the training to do it yourself.   Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. David Cole, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? David- Look for my articles at deltabravocharlie.com My latest article is about training at Range Ready in Robert, Louisiana. Rob- After you look at Dave articles and his videos, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. David- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_  

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 328 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Heather Reeves. What have you been doing since we talked? Heather Reeves Heather- Hi, Rob. I’ve been working on a new project, a podcast called Every Day Carry Chicks. My friend and fellow instructor Cass Crago is my co-host and we talk about issues we have encountered in the world of shooting. How about you? Rob- I’m trying to write more articles on my SlowFacts Blog. A few of them were reposted at the Truth About Guns. I went to the fall fundraiser for San Diego County Gun Owners. Tomorrow I’ll go to the Gun Rights Policy Conference in Phoenix. I’ve been carrying every day when I’m at home, and I’ve been dry practicing the FBI handgun qualification. I’m ready to shoot it at the range. Dwayne recommended a news story for us to use. Robin said she likes the show and listens to us as she eats dinner. Heather- We also received new ratings and a new comment on iTunes (is 358 and 195) J Friedmann called us one of his favorite podcasts. He thinks of the podcast as dry-fire practice for the mind. He also shares us with his clients and friends who own guns. Rob- Thank you, Dwayne, Robin, and JF. I’d also like to Thank Roger and Michael for their help with this episode. Heather- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and let new gun owners know why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Nashville, Tennessee. Rob- First story- Are you armed at home? You’re at home on a Tuesday night. Your ex-boyfriend enters your home and you tell him to leave. You have a restraining order out against him. He has been arrested and prosecuted once already for violating the judge’s order. He grabs you by the throat and chokes you.  You fight your way free. He says he is going to kill you. You grab a gun from your purse and again tell him to leave. He walks toward you and you shoot him once in the head. He stops advancing and you stop shooting. You call 911. Police and EMTs take your attacker to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. Officers make a note of your injuries. Detectives refer you to the Domestic Violence Unit. You are not charged with a crime. Rob- What did our defender do to save her life? Heather- Oh wow! what a scary situation our defender is put in. I am glad she thought ahead and purchased a firearm to defend herself.  It looks like she took excellent steps to deal with the situation. Not only does she give firm verbal commands to her attacker to leave her alone, she also is able to fight her way to her gun that she thankfully had in her purse. After the attacker again ignored verbal commands and our defender was in immediate, lethal and unavoidable danger of her life she shot her attacker once in the head and stopped when the threat was over. Once our defender was safe, she went and called 911. Well done!  She also had a restraining order. Rob- Heather, you’ve had students who had stalkers. That isn’t as simple as telling them to get a gun, is it?. Heather-  There are many hurdles these individuals face. They can often face skepticism from those around them and potentially law enforcement, which can make it more difficult to take the threat seriously. In addition, a gun comes with a learning curve for a person who needs it right now. Obtaining a restraining order is a great step, but ultimately it is only a piece of paper. I highly recommend individuals in a stalking situation get a security system, and really lock down on their social media. Report everything you think may be connected to this to the police. Rob- Are there other things that were left out of the story? Heather- I want her doors locked. Our defender managed to fight herself away for her attacker. Maybe she had some form of unarmed self defense training. You may find yourself in situations where you may not have your gun to keep you safe. This is where learning close-quarter self defense with empty hands can be invaluable to keep you protected. I also noticed that her firearm was in her purse instead of on her person. It took our defender time to get to her firearm so be aware that you need extra time if you decide to purse carry. If your firearm is carried on your body it is always available to you if you need it. It also greatly reduces the chance of it being taken away from you if your purse gets taken. Rob- There are always trade offs and compromises, but we want to do them deliberately. What else do you see? Heather- That is enough for now. Our second story happened in Memphis, Tennessee. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender realized that her ex-boyfriend could be a threat to her. She wisely obtained/enforced a restraining order AND had a gun nearby for protection.  She tried using verbal commands twice but without effect. The defender recognized that her life was in immediate, lethal and unavoidable danger from the ex-boyfriend’s words and actions.  She fired a shot when he advanced on her and that stopped the attack. Shooting an attacker’s head is a difficult shot to make but it is usually very effective in neutralizing a threat. Was the head shot intentional? The defender stopped shooting, called 911, put her gun away and gave a statement to the police.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Carrying her gun in a purse could have cost the defender her life if she hadn’t gotten free to get at it. Your gun is always at hand if you carry on-body. That also greatly reduces the chance that unauthorized hands can get a hold of it.  The defender stayed in the fight and she was able to break free from her ex-boyfriend. Did she have close-quarters, unarmed, self-defense training or was she just lucky? Anyone who carries a gun should also get some unarmed self-defense training. How many times and how many places are we disarmed by short-sighted “no-guns allowed” laws? The gun we carry should only be one of many tools we have in our self-defense arsenal.  Did the defender know how to shoot from a retention position? From the story it sounds like she and her ex-boyfriend were probably very close to each other when she fired at him. The closer an attacker is to the defender, the greater the chances are that the attacker can take the defender’s gun away from them. A large portion of self-defense gun uses occur within 6 feet so shooting from a retention position becomes a critical skill. Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at work? You and your sister are closing your restaurant for the night. You’re about to lock the front door when a stranger pushes his way inside. He is naked except for his tennis shoes. He says he wants a glass of water. You and your sister back away from him. He rushes you and hits you in the chest. You draw your gun from your purse. Your attacker picks up a chair and moves toward your sister to hit her. You shoot him until he stops. Your sister calls the police. When the police arrive, you put your gun away and open the door for them. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital. Both of you give a statement to the police. You are detained while you talk to detectives. Your attacker died in the hospital. You are released and not charged. Rob- What did our defender do to save her life? Heather-  A nude guy is probably not what you want to see when closing the store. That is gross! It sounds like our defender recognised how dangerous it is to work in a store at night and she was wise enough to buy a firearm to protect both her and her sister. It sounds like our defender did a good job. After the attacker pushed his way into the store. Both sisters backed away from the attacker. Our defender recognized that she was in fear for her life and her sister’s life, so she pulled her firearm from her purse and shot the attacker until the threat was stopped. Rob- Are there other things that were left out of the story? Heather- I want both of you to be armed. Don’t talk to the news media or social media about your defense. Have a lawyer and call them. Have the gun on your body and not across the room with your purse on the shelf under the cash register. Rob- Remind me why this was a lethal threat that justified the use of a lethal tool like a firearm. Heather- The man was larger and stronger than either of the victims. He was acting in a strange and threatening manner. He ignored verbal commands. He picked up a chair and threatened to hit someone with it. That was a lethal threat that justified the immediate use of lethal force. Rob- Anything else? Heather- It might have been an option to run to the back of the store and leave out the back door or lock yourself into the storage room. You have to study your situation. Rob- Where are we headed next? Heather- Our third story happened in Fayette County, Georgia. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender realized that she had a dangerous job and that she needed to carry a gun. Both the defender and her sister backed off when the attacker pushed his way into the store. They even told the attacker to leave. The defender recognized that she and her sister were under an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat when the attacker picked up a chair and tried to injure them with it.  The defender shot the attacker twice and stopped shooting when the attacker stopped advancing.  The defender’s sister called the police for help. The defender and her sister stayed at the scene, put the gun away when the police arrived and both of them gave statements to the police.   What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Just like in our last story, the defender’s gun was in her purse instead of on her body. On-body carry is always a tactical advantage.   Since the intruder was not armed, could the defender and her sister have retreated to a defensible room and barricaded the door? Could the defender have stopped the unarmed intruder with pepper spray before he picked up the chair? The news report says that the defender’s sister “live-streamed” after the shooting and the website also has multiple quotes from the defender. Making detailed statements or postings on social media can be detrimental to the defender’s case in both criminal and civil courts. Whatever you say can and will be used against you. Nothing you say can help you. Only talk to a lawyer and let them craft any statements to law enforcement or the media.  Rob- First this message from FASTER Colorado. FASTER Colorado https://fastercolorado.org/ Rob- Third story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? You are at home asleep with your family. It is after midnight on Thursday morning when you hear a crashing sound. Your security alarm goes off. You call the police and report the intrusion. You hear someone in your basement. You open the basement door and shout for them to leave. The intruder moves toward you with a knife in his hand. You shoot him. He turns away and you stop shooting. You move to the stairs that lead to your children’s rooms. The police arrive several minutes later. You put your gun away and let the police inside. They arrest your attacker. They notice the broken basement door. Your intruder is taken to the hospital for treatment. Police identify your intruder. He got out of prison a few days ago. He is wanted for a murder that happened yesterday in Ohio where he stabbed a 77 year old woman to death. He carjacked a truck that is parked in front of your house. He is also charged with home invasion and burglary to your home. You are not charged with a crime. Heather-  I’m glad our defender was prepared and had a plan. He had alarms in his house that warned him of a threat coming into his home. He immediately called 911 and reported the break-in. He heard the intruder in his basement, took his firearm and gave verbal commands for the intruder to leave. The intruder ignored the defender and came toward him with a knife in his hand. Our defender recognised he was an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat and shot the attacker until the threat stopped. He then took a defensive position in front of his kids rooms to keep them safe from any other potential invaders. He also did the usual good things like putting his gun away and giving a brief statement. Rob- Heather, where do your students learn to defend their home? Heather- We teach a class called defense in the home. One report says that the defender was on the stairs leading up to the bedrooms. That is good, but you also want to be behind cover or concealment as you defend your family. Don’t get shot. Rob- Are there other things that were left out of the story? Heather- Walk through your plan with your family. That keeps you from making bad decisions in the middle of the night when it is hard to think. We practice a plan so it is a routine rather than a thinking test. Secure your family. Call the police, and let them deal with the crazy murderer who broke into your home. Work so that everyone is part of the plan. If there isn’t a defensible pinch point like a stairway, then get everyone into one bedroom and learn how to defend that doorway. I want all of the adults in the house armed. You know how your firearm instructor said you don’t know who is down there? It could be an armed murderer, well in this case it was. I am an extraordinarily good shot with a gun, but I won’t go exploring my basement in the middle of the night. Let the police dog and a handful of armed officers do that for you.  Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Heather- We’re going to Fort Lauderdale, Florida. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender’s home had a locked basement door and a security alarm. The noise from breaking the door and the alarm going off gave the defender a warning. The defender called 911 immediately.  The defender also had a gun and took it with him when he went to investigate the noise.  The defender tried using verbal commands but that failed. The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat when the intruder moved towards him. The defender stopped shooting when the intruder turned away. The defender did not pursue the intruder. There may have been more than one intruder so the defender stood between the stairs to his kid’s rooms and the intruder(s). The defender put his gun away when the police arrived so he did not present a threat to the police.   What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The basement door was a weak point. That door should be reinforced with longer screws and hurricane film. Since the noise came from the basement and the defender had a warning from the alarm, best practices say to collect everyone into one, defensible room, barricade the door and prepare to ambush the intruder if he comes through the door. If the intruder had been armed with a gun instead of a knife, the defender could have been shot when he opened the basement door and that would have left his family vulnerable and defenseless.  Could someone else in the family also have been armed? Did they have a plan for home invasion? Did everyone know what they were supposed to do when the alarm went off? Having a security alarm gives you a little bit of time to act. What are you going to do with that time? After he shot the intruder, the defender moved to the stairs that led to the children’s rooms. Did he stay at the bottom of the stairs where he was probably in the open or did he climb to the top of the stairs? Did he position himself behind cover or concealment? Did he use the stairway as a “fatal funnel”? Tactics are more important than firepower.  Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you leave work? You are closing and walking out of your business for the day. You hear screams and shouts from the business next door. You see two men beating one of the store employees. You walk inside the store. You present your firearm and order the man to the ground. One of them is armed. You tell him to drop the gun or you’ll shoot him. He drops the gun and gets down. The other robber runs. You let him go. The injured store employee calls 911 and asks for help. You put your gun away when the police arrive. They arrest the robber. The two robbers robbed the store and then beat the employee. He is arrested and charged with armed robbery, aggravated assault with intent to commit a felony, aggravated battery with a deadly weapon, grand theft of a firearm, and illegally carrying a concealed firearm. The employee is taken in for medical treatment. You are not charged with a crime. Tag- no shots fired. Rob- What did our defender do to save lives? Heather-  Our defender recognized someone in trouble and went to investigate. He had his firearm on his person. He saw two men beating the store employee and he gave verbal commands to them to both stop the attack and to drop their weapons. One attacker ran away and the other dropped his firearm and then went to the floor. Our defender refrained from chasing the running attacker and kept the other attacker held at gunpoint while he waited for police to arrive. When the police arrived, our defender put his firearm away so he would not pose a threat to police.  Rob- Is there more you want your students to know about a situation like this one? Heather- Let’s talk a little more about defending a third party. We’re allowed to defend someone else if that innocent person had the right of self-defense. Your kids can’t defend themselves. They have the right, so you use your capacity and step in to defend them. If you’re being beaten, you don’t have to give verbal commands before you defend yourself. Likewise, we don’t have to give verbal commands if the person we’re defending did not have to give them either. Our victim could get killed while we’re talking. Rob- What else do you tell your students about defending strangers? Heather-  There is a risk. You don’t know that the store clerk is innocent. Is this a robbery, or is this a drug deal that went wrong? You are betting your life and your family’s fortune that the clerk is the innocent party. That is a big bet and you want to be sure. Rob- Is there more you want your business owners to do that wasn’t mentioned in the news report? Heather- Don’t open or close the store alone. Have both employees armed and have a plan. One of you talks to the person outside and the other is behind cover with his hand on the gun. Just like at home, you can talk to someone through a closed door. I’m surprised that they didn’t have the robbers on camera. Make sure you buy good quality security cameras for your store. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender paid attention when he heard the screams and shouts from the business next door.  The defender was armed when he went to investigate.  The defender drew his gun and used verbal commands to stop the attack and tell the armed attacker to drop his gun. . The defender let the unarmed attacker leave without shooting him.  The defender did not pursue the running attacker. The defender held the armed attacker at gunpoint while the employee called 911.  The defender put his gun away when the police arrived so as not to present them with a threat.    What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender was under no obligation to stop the attack on the employee. Defending a third party is a choice and something that every gun carrier needs to think about and decide long before the situation occurs.  The story doesn’t say but the defender should have sought cover or concealment before telling the armed attacker to drop his gun. Engaging someone who already has a gun drawn can get you shot. The first goal of self-defense is not to get shot.  The defender giving the armed attacker a verbal warning put the defender and the victim in great jeopardy. If you are justified in using deadly force, you are not required to give a verbal warning first.  Did the defender have the proper training in order to hold the attacker at gunpoint? Did he know to keep the attacker at a distance and hold him from a position of cover or concealment? Did the defender know what to do if the attacker got up and ran away or towards him?  This incident took place in Florida. Did the defender know what the laws in that state are concerning citizen arrests and warning shots? Use of deadly force? Learn the laws for the jurisdiction where you live and also for where you travel.  Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Heather, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Heather- Look at my classes at my gun store website Wolverinedefenseacademy.com. I list more classes at agirlandagun.org under the Portage, Michigan chapter. Rob- Please leave Heather a message on the episode webpage. Heather- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 327 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Ben Branam. What has been keeping you so busy? Ben- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been busy trying to get back in shape.  It’s one of those things we let slide and isn’t as fun as some of the other things we do.  I’ve also been training with a church security team working on our medical and fire procedures. Rob- Are you part of the team, or are you training them? Ben- Both, I’m the primary firearms instructor and part of the team as just a window licker.  Rob- I’ve been dry practicing and reshaping some of my holsters. We didn’t hear from our listeners this week on iTunes. Thank you again to Roger Temple for his help this week. Ben- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in  Maine, New York. Rob- First story- Are you armed at home? You’re at home when you hear someone banging on your front door. You’re armed. You go to the door and open it. Two masked strangers try to push their way inside. You present your firearm. They turn and run. The masked strangers shoot at you as they run, so you return fire. You call 911 and ask for help. It is 10 in the evening. You put your gun away as the police arrive. You give a statement to the police. Detectives think your house was specifically targeted for a burglary. Officers find your intruders. One has a gunshot wound to the leg. He is taken to the hospital for treatment. Both are arrested and charged with attempted murder in the second degree, attempted burglary in the first degree, and criminal use of a firearm in the first degree. They had stolen firearms. You are not charged with a crime. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender was armed when he went to answer the door.  The defender did not freeze when the intruders attempted to push their way in. The defender returned fire when he was shot at and hit one of the attackers in the leg. The attackers fired at the defender while they turned and ran. The defender recognized that he was still under an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat so he returned fire. As long as he was under a threat, he has the right to fire back. The defender did not pursue the attackers. Defenders never want to be perceived as the aggressor.  The defender stayed in the house, called 911, put his gun away when the police arrived and he gave a brief statement to the police.    What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Why did the defender open the door when someone was banging on it? It doesn’t matter what time of day or night it is, best practices says don’t open the door until you know and trust who is on the other side.  You need to respond to a knock or a bang on your door so the intruders know that someone is at home but you don’t open the door and give them a chance to push their way in. Ask “who’s there” from a nearby window or from cover/ concealment near the door but not directly in front of it. The bad guys will assume that you are near the door and they might start shooting through the closed door. Typical residential doors don’t stop bullets.  If the door has glass windows or there are glass sidelights, don’t let the people outside see where you are on the inside. Don’t make yourself a target. Use the home’s exterior lights. Not only is this a possible deterrent, the light also helps you identify your attackers and get good hits if necessary. Turning on exterior lights while turning off the interior lights gives you a great, tactical advantage.  The defender was armed when he opened the door. He was probably carrying his gun on him while in the house. The sooner you can get to your gun, the better your chances of survival. Did the defender always “home carry” or did he know that he was in danger? Installing a doorbell video would have been a good idea. Also having motion-detecting floodlights would too. Anything you can do to harden the home’s perimeter reduces the odds that your home will be chosen for an invasion.  The detectives stated they thought that your house was specifically targeted for a burglary. The defender should definitely ask the detectives why they thought that was the case and make adjustments.   Did the defender have the equipment and the knowledge to treat a gunshot wound to himself? The attackers fired 8 rounds at him and fortunately they missed him. What if the defender had been shot? Would he know how to keep himself from bleeding out since he was home alone?   Rob- Anything else? Ben- That is enough for now. Our second story happened in Columbia, South Carolina. Rob- Second Story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? You are at home in bed. The news reports say that a female lives there as well, but we don’t know if it is your wife, a girlfriend, or an unrelated female. You’re both woken up by the sound of someone banging on your door. It is almost 2am and now someone is kicking your front door. The female occupant of the home picks up her phone and calls 911. You grab your gun. The intruder keeps trying to get in. Now he breaks the glass window in the door and he reaches through the broken door to turn the door knob. You shoot through the window and strike your intruder in the chest. He steps back and you stop shooting. The female occupant of the home tells the police that there were shots fired. She stays on the phone with the dispatcher. You put your gun away when the police arrive. They find your intruder dead on the front porch. Both of you give statements to the police. You later find out that the intruder was a college student who tried to get into the wrong home even though he was two miles from campus. Police asked for toxicology reports to find out what the intruder was taking. The district solicitor’s office said you would not be charged with a crime. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Both of the defenders heard the intruder trying to enter the home and they reacted. They did not ignore the possible danger.  The defenders worked as a team: the male defender grabbed his gun while the female defender immediately called 911 and kept talking to the dispatcher. When the intruder broke the glass window and reached inside to open the lock, the male defender perceived there was a threat so he fired a shot at the intruder. South Carolina has “Castile Doctrine” so they did not have to retreat. The female defender kept the 911 dispatcher on the phone and this provided an audio recording of what happened. Audio and video recordings provide critical evidence in self-defense cases. The male defender stopped shooting when the intruder stepped back. The defenders did not pursue the attacker. They stayed at the scene, put the gun away when police arrived and gave brief statements.   What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The intruder wasn’t able to kick the door down but he did break the glass window in the door and attempted to open the doorknob/lock by reaching inside. Glass is the weakest point in a home’s perimeter. Glass windows in doors, sidelights and any ground-floor glass can be inexpensively reinforced by applying an impact-resistant, hurricane film to the glass. The glass still shatters but it doesn’t fall out of the door/window. This is similar to how the windshield in a car works.  The defenders went to investigate the noise. Since there was no one else in the house that they had to defend, best practices say that they should have moved together to a defensible room, barricaded the door, turned off the lights, called 911 and prepared to ambush the intruder if he came after them.  Since the intruder did not appear to be armed, could the defenders have tried non-lethal force like verbal commands or pepper spray before using the gun? A firearm is a weapon of LAST resort. Not all threats are lethal threats. Even if the law allows the use of deadly force in a home invasion, that doesn’t mean that you have to. This sounds like a case of “awful but lawful” as Andrew Branka says.  This may have been a case of the intruder mistakenly thinking (due to impairment of drugs or alcohol) that the defender’s house was his own. Unfortunately, the defenders had no way of knowing what the intruder’s intent was at the time.  Ben- Our third story happened in Pensacola, Florida. Rob- First this message from the Crime Prevention Research Center. Cprc https://crimeresearch.org/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed in public? You get a text from your sister. She says she needs you right now and that she is in trouble. You grab your gun and drive over to her home. The door to her trailer is broken in. You go inside and her ex boyfriend is standing in the middle of her trailer. She is bruised and she says he hit her..again. You both tell him to leave. That is when the ex-boyfriend draws his gun. He points it at you. You present your firearm and shoot him until he drops his gun. News reports aren’t clear if you or your sister called 911 for help. You both stayed at the scene. You put your gun away when the police arrived. Both of you gave statements to the police. The police take your attacker’s gun and they see the door he kicked in. They see your sister’s injuries. You are not charged with a crime. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender realized that he might need his gun so he took it with him when he went to his sister’s home. According to the news website, he also brought “others” with him.  The defender noticed that the door to the trailer was broken in, saw the bruises and heard his sister say that the ex-boyfriend had hit her. The defender did not present his gun at this point since his sister was not in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to her life because the ex was not beating his sister at that moment. The defender did try telling the ex-boyfriend to leave. This failed.  The defender did shoot the ex-boyfriend twice when he pointed his gun at the defender. It’s very difficult to draw and fire your gun if the other guy’s gun is already drawn. The defender stopped shooting when the ex dropped his gun. The defender stayed at the scene, either he or his sister called 911, he put his gun away when the police arrived and they both gave statements to the police.    What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Did the sister have a restraining order against the ex-boyfriend? Did she tell all of her family and friends that they were no longer together and that he might be violent? Restraining orders don’t stop attacks but they establish an important legal papertrail. Also, in many states a domestic violence restraining order cancels the abuser’s right to own a gun.   The sister should have bought a gun and gotten the training so she could defend herself. Waiting for her brother or the police to arrive in time might have been a fatal mistake.  Could the sister have called/texted the police before texting her brother? Did she use texting to keep her ex-boyfriend from knowing that she was reaching out for help? Texting 911 is not available in all areas and even if it is available, the dispatcher gets more critical information from a call than a text. Plus the call provides an audible recording of what’s going on at the time.  Did the brother call 911 before getting his friends and going to help his sister? Maybe he was closer but was he as well-equipped to handle the situation? Did the brother try to de-escalate the situation before the ex-boyfriend drew his gun? Separating the parties can sometimes reduce the tension and allow some cooling off.  The brother brought “others” with him. Were they also armed? Did they have a plan? Did anyone have non-lethal weapons and could they have tried to use them before the ex-boyfriend drew his gun? Once the ex drew his gun, the brother had no other options.  Most trailers have small interiors with little room to move. Did the brother know how to draw and shoot while moving out of the line of fire? Did he know how to shoot from a retention position? Did any or the parties have the equipment and training to provide trauma first aid? Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Ben- Our fourth story took place in Logan County, Kentucky. Rob- Fourth story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? You’re at home in bed. It is after two in the morning when you hear a crashing sound. You get up to see what is going on. Your ex-husband broke into your apartment. You tell him to leave and he attacks you. You run back to your bedroom and grab your gun. He moves toward you again, this time you shoot him. He stops advancing so you stop shooting. You step back and call the police. You put your gun away before the police arrive. You give them a brief statement. They notice the broken door. The Coroner pronounces your attacker dead at the scene. You are not charged. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender paid attention when she heard noises when she was asleep.  The defender told her ex-husband to leave but that failed. The defender owned a gun and apparently knew how to use it.  The defender retrieved her gun and recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to her life. Disparity of force was also involved.  She shot her ex-husband when he advanced towards her. The ex-husband stopped advancing so the defender stopped shooting.  The defender retreated, called 911, put her gun away and gave a brief statement to the police.   What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Many times, breaking down a door can be prevented by replacing the original, short screws in the hinges and the lock’s striker plate with longer screws that penetrate the wood framing. This is inexpensive and effective.  Was the ex-husband violent? Did the defender have a restraining order against her ex-husband? Did she tell all of her family, friends and her neighbors to be on the lookout for him and why? The defender had a gun but she didn’t take it with her when she initially investigated the noise from the breaking door. Not a good idea. She didn’t know how many intruders there were, where they were nor if they were armed. Don’t walk into an unknown situation. A single person trying to “clear” a house by themselves is very dangerous. Too many unknown variables.  The news website says that the defender and her ex-husband struggled over the gun after she retrieved it from the bedroom and the result was that he got shot. The defender should have tried to maintain some distance from her attacker. If she couldn’t increase the distance from him she should have used a retention shooting position.   There was no one else in the home that she had to defend so she should have stayed in her bedroom, barricaded the door, called 911 and prepared to ambush the intruder(s) if they broke through the bedroom door. That would be using good tactics. If you have others in the house that you have to defend, get the proper training and be sure to take your gun, extra ammo, a flashlight and a cell phone with you. Don’t count on having the time to go back and get them if needed. Keep a fanny pack “go bag” with these items in it next to your bed. Learn how to “blip” a flashlight and how to shoot while holding one.  Use multiple nightlights throughout the house. This gives you a great tactical advantage over intruders.  Don’t shoot at shapes, shadows and sounds. Identify your target and get good hits. Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Ben, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Ben- I teach armed self-defense and church security. I live in San Antonio, and most of my classes are in central Texas. Sign up for my classes at Modern Self Protection.com, and subscribe to my weekly podcast called Modern Self-Protection. Rob- After you look at Ben articles and his class schedule, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. Ben- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 326 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Amanda Suffecool. What has been keeping you so busy? Amanda- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been fighting the 2A fight, showing up boots on the ground in Tennessee and Massachusetts.   Supporting programs like DCProject, Women for Gun Rights, and Faster Saves Lives.   And I finally got off my duff and ordered a new gun.   How about you? Rob- I’m dry practicing a couple times a week as I work on the FBI handgun qualification test. Texas-Beth left us a message. She has been catching up on the episodes, and she said one of our stories was wild. She collects ideas from our podcast and shares them with the other women in her Armed Women of America chapter. Amanda- Beth gave us a thank you, but again, you guys are doing the work of staying safe and sharing what you learn with other gun owners.   These all women shooting groups are doing more for firearms education than anything I have seen in years.  Dwayne said he likes the podcast. Roger and Michael gave us their comments on the stories. Rob- Thank you, Beth, Dwayne, Roger and Michael. We are still in a three way tie for the most listened to second amendment podcast in the US. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. If you listen to the podcast and will be at the San Diego County Gun Owners Annual Banquet, then please look for me and say hello. Amanda- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Rob- First story- Are you armed as you drive? You are filling your car with gas at 10:30 at night. You’re sitting in the driver’s seat when a stranger runs up to your car. He pulls open the door and drags you out of your seat. He grabs you in a bear hug from behind before he throws you to the ground. He demands your keys and your purse. You’re armed. You give him your handgun instead, mussle first. You shoot your attacker. He draws a gun and shoots you. You both separate and stop shooting. You run inside the gas station and ask for help. Police officers who were patrolling nearby heard your gunshots. They arrive at the scene in less than a minute. EMS treats your wounds and takes you to the hospital. They also transport your attacker. Your attacker is arrested and jailed when he leaves the hospital. You are not charged. What did our defender do to save her life. Amanda- I’m glad that our defender recognized that she needed to be armed in public. She decided to carry concealed and on body. She recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to her life and acted accordingly. It is hard to start your defense from laying on your back on the ground, but she caught up fast. She drew her gun and fired at the attacker hitting him multiple times even after being thrown to the ground. Even though she was shot in the leg, the defender was able to retreat to the inside of the store. This gave her cover, lights, cameras and witnesses. She didn’t run away from danger, she ran towards safety. Excellent Job Rob- Is there anything else you’d ask your students to do at night when they stop to fill up their car? Amanda-  Most carjackings can be prevented by simply locking the car’s doors Your car doors should always be locked whether you are in the car or not. Even when filling the car with gas.  We have all seen those low sliding bad guys creeping up to a car to steal your purse from the passenger door. Don’t let that be you.  People are very vulnerable when they are pumping gas. Make sure to put your head on a swivel and pay attention to others around you. Watch people’s hands and make a plan for what you would do if you were approached. Also be prepared for more than one attacker and be aware that many times, one attacker distracts you from the front while another one attacks you from behind. The defender was able to shoot the bad guy multiple times but he was still able to return fire and hit the defender in the leg. If possible, move to cover/concealment and keep shooting until the threat is over. That may take only one shot or the whole magazine. Police and friends of mine train for the need to shoot while laying on your back – have you ever? At some time during or after the gunfight, the defender wisely retreated to the inside of the store. Someone in the store should have secured the doors, moved the customers in the store away from the windows (which are not bulletproof) and turned off the interior lights. That makes it much harder for the bad guy and his friends to continue the attack. Have a tourniquet and training so you can stop the bleeding? I think it is important to have trauma training. We carry a gun to protect our life and the life of others. We can save a life by providing care after we stop the threat.  Many of my trauma trained folks carry two tourniquets – one for themselves and one to help others. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender was trained and armed at the time of the attack. She recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to her life and acted accordingly. She drew her handgun, fired at the attacker and got multiple hits after being thrown to the ground.  Even though she was shot in the leg, the defender was able to retreat to the inside of the store. This gave her cover, lights, cameras and witnesses. She didn’t run away from danger, she ran towards safety. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Some carjackings can be prevented by simply locking the car’s doors and/or using the seatbelt. Your car doors should always be locked whether you are in the car or not. Even when filling the car with gas.  People are very vulnerable when they are pumping gas. Put your head on a swivel and pay attention to others around you. Watch people’s hands and make a plan for what you would do if you were approached. Be prepared for more than one attacker. Be aware that many times one attacker distracts you from the front while another one attacks you from behind.  The defender was able to shoot the bad guy multiple times but he was still able to return fire and hit the defender in the leg. If possible, move to cover/concealment and keep shooting until the threat is over. That may take only one shot or the whole magazine. Also, be sure to scan for other attackers. Be prepared to deal with them if needed.  The defender was fortunate that there were other people in the store when she was shot and needed help. Did the defender or someone in the store have the training and the equipment to stop the bleeding from the gunshot to her leg? If the femoral artery is hit, a person can bleed out in about a minute without treatment. It is critical to have trauma training if you are to carry a firearm.  During the gunfight, the defender wisely retreated to the inside of the store. Someone in the store should have secured the doors, moved the customers in the store away from the windows (which are not bulletproof) and turned off the interior lights. You never know when the bad guy or his friends may choose to continue the attack.  Learning how to shoot on the ground can be invaluable for this exact situation. It will take practice and training however. Rob- Anything else? Amanda- That is enough for now. Our second story happened in Metairie, Louisiana. Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at work? You’re driving your cab. It is one in the morning and you drop off a fare and find a place to park. A stranger walks up to the driver’s side door of your car. He orders you to hand over your money. The stranger has a gun in his hands. You’re armed. The news reports aren’t clear about how you did it, but you present your firearm and shoot your attacker several times. Your attacker turns away and you stop shooting. You stay at the scene and call 911 for help. You put your gun away before the police arrive. You give the police a statement about what happened. Police identify your attacker. He matches the description of a suspect who robbed a store yesterday and two other cabs that night. Your attacker is pronounced dead at the scene. You are not charged with a crime. Amanda- The defender had a dangerous job. He carried a gun at work and probably had a plan for if they were attacked. The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to his/her life, so they drew their gun and fired multiple shots hitting the attacker. The defender stopped shooting when the attacker turned away and the threat had stopped. The defender did not pursue the attacker. The defender stayed at the scene, put the gun away so as not to present a threat to the police when they arrived, and he gave a brief statement. Rob- Are there other things that weren’t covered in the story? Amanda-  Drawing and shooting a handgun while seated in a car is not easy. It takes training and practice to do it quickly and safely. Did he have a plan in place before the attack? Having a plan ready before the incident is paramount to your survival. An occupied, parked cab is a “sitting-duck” target. Was he aware of where he parked his cab? Were there lights, cameras and witnesses nearby or did he park in a secluded, dark place without people around? Criminals view occupied cabs and rideshare vehicles as mobile ATMs.  Though this always amazes me – we are a 90% cashless society on transportation style transactions.  Did the defender know that he had to adjust his point of aim when shooting through the windshield? Were the defenders doors locked, the windows up and his seatbelt on – does that make it easier or harder to get to your gun? Wear a holster so you have your gun with you when he got out of the car in a hurry. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender had a dangerous job. He/she carried a gun at work and probably had a plan for if they were attacked. The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to his/her life.  The defender drew their gun and fired multiple shots hitting the attacker. The defender stopped shooting when the attacker turned away and the threat had stopped. The defender did not pursue the attacker. The defender stayed at the scene, called 911, put the gun away so as not to present a threat to the police when they arrived and he gave a brief statement.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Drawing and shooting a handgun while seated in a car is not easy. It takes training and practice to do it quickly and safely. Did he have a plan? An occupied, parked cab is a “sitting-duck” target. Where did he park his cab? Were there lights, cameras and witnesses nearby or did he park in a secluded, dark place without people around? Criminals view occupied cabs and rideshare vehicles as mobile ATMs.  Did the defender have the training to know how to shoot through the car’s doors, windows and windshield? Did he know that the window’s metal crank system or electric motors can stop his bullets? Did he know how the glass can deflect the bullet’s trajectory? Did he know that he had to adjust his point of aim when shooting through the windshield? Did the defender have his doors locked, the windows up and his seatbelt on? Was the engine running while the car was parked? Could he have safely driven off instead of getting into a gunfight?  Where did he keep his gun so it was accessible while seated in the car? Did he wear a holster so he had his gun with him when he got out of the car? Did he use a shoulder holster, a hip holster or a car-mounted holster? Did he have one gun on him and one in the car as well? Rob- Where are we going next? Amanda- Our third story happened in Jackson, Mississippi. Rob- First this message from the Buckeye Firearms Foundation. Buckeye Firearms Foundation https://fastersaveslives.org/ Rob- Third story-  Are you armed at home? It is about two in the morning and you’re waiting up for your family to arrive home.  You hear your husband and your son drive up to the house and park their car. You look outside and see three masked men run up to your family. The strangers are armed, and your husband and son raise their hands in the air. You grab your gun and run outside. You shoot your attackers. They run. So do your husband and your son as the attackers shoot back. The three of you run inside and call 911. Police arrive and you put your gun away. The officers find one of your attackers on the street. The three of you give a statement to the officers. EMS declares one of your attackers dead at the scene. The officers find a second attacker on the next block. The third one got away. You are not charged with a crime. Amanda-  Fortunately, the defender was watching and aware of both her husband and son as they arrived home. How many times are you in the basement, doing laundry, making coffee and miss the arrival of someone expected?  The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to her family’s lives so she grabbed her gun and quickly engaged the attackers. The defender, her husband and her son all retreated to the interior of the house and were able to call 911. She also had the wisdom to put her gun away when police arrived and they all gave brief statements. I have to note that the defender stopped three armed attackers at a distance in the dark. Well done. Rob- Is there more that we could do to protect our family? Amanda-  First, I’d like it if the husband and son were armed themselves. After being robbed, I bet they do too. I love that the defender was able to get to her gun so quickly. I noticed she immediately went outside to engage the attackers. Could she have engaged the attackers from inside of the home where she would be concealed or did she need to get closer to get a better shot? When she went outside, did she use cover or concealment to prevent herself from being shot? I want the husband and son to move to cover outside instead of running into the house during the gunfight. People instinctively equate their home with safety. Learn the difference between cover and concealment. In a gunfight, the primary goal is to keep from getting shot even if you are armed. The first goal is to not get shot. The second goal is to stop the attack. Sometimes that means we have to slow down and get good hits on the attackers even though our heart is racing. Rob- When do you talk to your students about using cover and concealment, and when would they learn to shoot accurately in low-light conditions? Amanda-  its a discussion in all of my classes.   If the bad guy can’t see you, statistics and data prove that they don’t attempt to shoot into or through cover, even though its not bulletproof.  What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Fortunately, the defender was watching and aware of both her husband and son arriving home. The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to her family’s lives. She grabbed her gun and quickly engaged the attackers. The defender, her husband and her son retreated to the safety of their house and called 911. She put her gun away when police arrived and they all gave brief statements. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender grabbed her gun and went outside to engage the attackers. Could she have engaged the attackers from inside of the home where she would be concealed? When she went outside, did she use cover or concealment to prevent herself from being shot? Did she go outside in order to get closer or a better angle?  Did the defender turn on exterior lights? Did they have motion-detecting floodlights? You have to be able to identify your target(s) and sometimes just the lights coming on stops an attack. Could the husband and son have moved to cover outside instead of running into the house during the gunfight? Was there a block/masonry set of steps or wall nearby? A tree? A pile of dirt? Could they have used their car’s wheels or engine compartment as cover instead of risking retreating to the house? Running to the house exposed them to being shot. Even when they made it to the house they weren’t safe since most exterior house walls are not bulletproof. They only provide concealment. If they had stayed at the car, they would have had some cover. People instinctively equate their home with safety- it’s not true. Learn the difference between cover and concealment.  In a gunfight, the primary goal is to keep from getting shot even if you are armed. Moving to cover/concealment is more important than shooting back. The second goal is to stop the threat whether that involves shooting or not.   The defender fired multiple shots at three attackers and only hit one of them. In a gunfight, only good hits count.  Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Amanda- Our fourth story took place in Butler, Pennsylvania. Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you arrive home? You and your girlfriend are both at home after work. You’re about to make dinner when you hear a loud bang from the basement. You both go down the basement stairs to see what is going on. You see a stranger in your basement. You shout for him to leave, but he stays put. Your girlfriend runs up stairs to grab her phone and to call 911. You go upstairs and grab your gun. You go back downstairs and tell the intruder to stay away. He does for a minute. You notice that he has a half-empty bottle of alcohol with him. He gets angry and moves toward you. You fire a warning shot next to him. That doesn’t stop him. You shoot him and he falls down. He starts to get up and you kick him, so he stays down. Police arrive and arrest your intruder. You and your girlfriend give brief statements to the police. Your intruder broke in through the basement door. Your intruder is wanted for outstanding warrants for felony burglary. He is facing additional charges of felony burglary when he is released from the hospital. You are not charged with a crime. Amanda-  I am glad when the defenders heard a noise they became aware and alert and they did not ignore it. They investigated the noise together as a team and when they found the threat, they gave firm, loud instructions to the intruder to leave. A loud commanding voice can go a long way to prevent a situation. One of the defenders retreated and started calling 911 while the other retreated and grabbed a gun. They gave commands to the intruder to stand still and show his hands. The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat when the intruder refused commands and moved towards them. He shot the intruder until the threat was over. Well done Rob- What would you do in that situation? Amanda- The first thing the defender should do is make sure they have their firearm on them and ready to go if they need it   You own a gun, you hear a bump in the night and you go to look WITHOUT your gun,  this sounds like the part of the horror movie where the audience is shouting “Don’t go down there”.  The defenders worked together as a team but they mistakenly didn’t take their equipment with them when they first encountered the intruder. Best practices says that if you don’t have to protect someone who is elsewhere in the house, you should retreat to a defensible place, barricade the door, call 911 and prepare to ambush the intruder if they come in after you. The next best thing you can do is to investigate with another person who is armed and trained. You bring your friends, your guns, a phone and a flashlight. Remember, you are possibly engaging with an unknown number of intruders. You don’t know exactly where they are and you don’t know if or how they are armed. The website article says that the defender “asked” the intruder to stay put and show him his hands. I teach my students this. You are in a life-and-death situation so you use a forceful voice to command compliance, so ASK in a very loud voice.   Many times, just presenting a firearm and showing the bad guys that you are resolute can get them to stop their threat without firing a shot. Criminals fear an armed homeowner more than they do the police. The defender fired a warning shot. This is almost never a good idea. The use of warning shots is not only unwise but also illegal in every state except Florida. Make sure you study and know your state’s laws. Pennsylvania, like many other states, has a stand your ground law. That law removes the requirement for the defender to retreat in his home before using deadly force. Approximately 12 states still have an actual “duty to retreat” laws. Again, we need to take a class or check with a lawyer to learn the law where you live. Rob- The duty to retreat may mean taking a half step backward, or it may mean moving as far as you can go safely. The difference is important. Amanda- I want to know if they could have backed up to gain some distance. Distance and cover are our best friends. The defender got close enough to the intruder to kick him so the bad guy might have been able to wrestle the gun away from the defender. One of a  gun’s biggest advantages is that it can be used from a distance and still be effective. It is an advanced skill, but you want to learn to shoot from a retention position if you are close to an attacker and you can’t gain some distance from them. The defender gave an interview to the news media- not a good idea. Lawyers make their living keeping people out of legal trouble. Anyone, including family, giving detailed interviews/statements to the police, the news media or posting on social media without a lawyer can seriously undermine the defender’s case in criminal and civil court. Anything you say/post or anyone you’ve talked to says can be used against you in court. If you are going to use a gun for self-defense, get a self-defense legal plan, talk to your lawyer before making any statements and use your right to remain silent! As U.S. Lawshield says: “Lawyer up and shut up!” What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defenders heard a noise and became aware and alert. They did not ignore it. They investigated the noise together as a team. According to the website news story, they ASKED the intruder to leave and show his hands. One of the defenders retreated and started calling 911 while the other retreated and grabbed a gun. They tried ASKING the intruder to stand still and show his hands. The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat when the intruder refused requests and moved towards them. He shot the intruder until the threat was over. The defenders stayed at the scene and gave the police a brief statement.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The basement door was locked and the intruder had to make noise in order to enter. This gave the defenders a warning. The first step in home security is always to reinforce your perimeter. This gives you time to react and the noise of breaking through the door/window gives you a critical warning.  The defenders worked together as a team but they mistakenly didn’t take their equipment with them when they first encountered the intruder. Best practices says that if you don’t have to protect someone who is elsewhere in the house, you should retreat to a defensible place, barricade the door, call 911 and prepare to ambush the intruder if they come in after you. The next best thing you can do is to investigate with another person who is armed and trained. You bring your friends, your guns, a phone and a flashlight. Remember, you are possibly engaging with an unknown number of intruders. You don’t know exactly where they are and you don’t know if or how they are armed.  The website article says that the defender “asked” the intruder to stay put and show him his hands. Right idea- wrong method! When you are in a life-and-death situation, you use a forceful voice to command compliance. Many times, just presenting a firearm and showing the bad guys that you are resolute can get them to stop their threat without firing a shot.  Criminals fear an armed homeowner more than they do the police. The defender fired a warning shot. This is almost never a good idea. The use of warning shots is not only unwise but also illegal in every state except one. Florida allows warning shots but even there the use is highly restricted.  Make sure you study and know your state’s laws. Pennsylvania, like many other states, has The Castle Doctrine. This part of the law removes the requirement for the defender to retreat from his home before using deadly force. Approximately 12 states still have “duty to retreat” laws. Take a class or check with a lawyer to learn the Use of Deadly Force laws for your jurisdiction. Even though it was legal for the defenders to re-engage the intruder with a gun, was it the best decision?  Could the defenders have used cover/concealment when engaging the intruder? Could they have backed up to gain some distance? Distance and cover are your best friends. The defender got close enough to the intruder to kick him so the bad guy might have been able to wrestle the gun away from the defender. One of a  gun’s biggest advantages is that it can be used from a distance and still be effective.  Learn to shoot from a retention position if you are close to an attacker and you can’t gain some distance from them. The defender gave an interview to the news media- not a good idea. Lawyers make their living keeping people out of legal trouble. Anyone, including family, giving detailed interviews/statements to the police, the news media or posting on social media without a lawyer can seriously undermine the defender’s case in criminal and civil court. Anything you say/post or anyone you’ve talked to says can be used against you in court. If you are going to use a gun for self-defense, get a self-defense legal plan, talk to your lawyer before making any statements and use your right to remain silent! As U.S. Lawshield says: “Lawyer up and shut up!” Exit- Rob- Amanda, that wraps up our episode. Thank you so much for helping us today. Where can we learn more about you? Amanda- My eye on the target radio show is syndicated coast to coast on Sunday nights from 5 to 7 eastern time. I instruct on the weekends in Northeastern Ohio. I’m part of the DCProject that you can find at DCProject.info, and  I’m on TV at the OpsLens channel with Eye on the Target on Sundays.  Rob- After you listen to Amanda podcasts and watch her TV show, then please leave her a message on our podcast episode webpage. Amanda- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_

Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 325 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Candy Petticord. What has been keeping you so busy? Candy- Hi, Rob.  I’ve been training a lot. We had John Farnam teach a class. How about you? Rob- We received ratings and a new comment on iTunes (194,356) Jac has been shooting for the last four years, but is still learning about armed defense. He loves the podcast, and shares it on Twitter and Facebook. Candy- Jac thanked us, but we thank him for sharing the podcast with his friends. We are still tied in third place for the most popular second amendment podcast in the US. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Rob-Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. Each week we look at a few recent examples. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Candy- Our first story took place last week in Tucson, Arizona. Rob- First story- Are you armed at home? and here. You are at home on Thursday afternoon. You hear someone banging on your door. They are trying to break in. You grab your handgun and shout for the intruder to go away and that you’re armed. The intruder tries to smash his way through one of your windows. You shoot through the window, but miss your intruder. Now your attacker reaches through the broken glass and tries to grab you. You shoot him several times until he moves away. You stop shooting. You get your phone and call 911 for help. You stay inside your home. Arriving officers find your dead attacker on your driveway. You put your gun away and give the officers a statement of what happened. Police identify your attacker. Your attacker is a registered sex offender. He was sentensed for felony sexual assault and had another prior conviction for domestic violence. You are not charged with a crime. Candy- The defender  thought that someday, bad things might happen, so they prepared themselves by buying a firearm and learning how to use it. They locked their doors and windows.  What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender paid attention when someone started banging on their door.  The defender had a gun and grabbed it in case they needed it. The defender tried using verbal commands but they failed. The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat when the attacker broke the window and then tried to grab them. She then fired several rounds until the attacker retreated. The defender did not pursue the attacker. The defender stayed in the house, called 911 and put their gun away when police arrived.  The defender gave a statement to the police. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Apparently, the defender’s door was locked and strong enough to withstand the attacker’s attempts to get in by using the door. The attacker was able to break through a window. There are hurricane impact resistant glass films that prevent the shattered glass from falling out of the frame. These films are available online and are fairly inexpensive. The articles on the other websites state that the defender fired a warning shot through the window in a failed attempt to get the attacker to leave. Best practices say that this is never a good idea. That bullet has to stop somewhere whether it’s aimed or not. Also firing warning shots reduces the amount of ammunition you have available to stop the threat. Warning shots can also cause some legal problems with a self-defense claim.  Could the defender have stepped back, taken cover and waited until the attacker entered through the window before shooting? Tactics are important. Did the defender have a self-defense plan with a lawyer to help them write their statement to the police?    Rob- Do you see anything else that wasn’t mentioned in the news reports? Candy- Guns work at a distance. We want to create distance from our attacker so we can shoot them but they can’t grab us. I understand that you are shouting at the person outside, but I want you on the other side of the room so they can’t hurt you, and maybe they can’t even see you. One of the articles says that the defender fired a warning shot. That is a very bad idea. A gun is a lethal tool. We’re only allowed to use it if we face a lethal threat. If we face a non-lethal threat, then the gun is the wrong tool. Rob- When would your students learn about when and where to use lethal force? Candy- Most get their first exposure in the legal section of their concealed carry class. There are other classes about the legal use of lethal force. We keep studying on our own. Rob- Candy, where are we going next? Candy- Our second story happened in Houston, Texas. Rob- Second Story- Are you armed as you drive? You own a check cashing business. You went to the bank to deposit checks and withdraw some cash. You park next to your business and get out of your car. Two men follow you inside your store and they hit you in the head from behind. You fall to the ground. You roll over and see two men wearing masks over their faces and wearing gloves. You present your firearm and shoot your attackers. One of your employees sees your attack and he shoots your attackers too. Your attackers run out of your store. The getaway driver drives his car from your parking lot. The news reports aren’t clear if you or one of your employees called 911 for help. You and your employees put your guns away. All of you give statements to the police. Police find your attackers dead in the parking lot. You were robbed before. It isn’t clear if you have security video inside and outside your store, but the police have the license number of the get-away car. The police think your attackers followed you from the bank. You and your employees are not charged with a crime. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender had a high-risk job. He also had a gun with him when he went to the bank and he probably had a plan. The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to his life, drew his gun and fired at both attackers. The defender’s employee also had a gun and fired on the attackers. One of the defenders called 911. Neither of the defenders pursued the attackers. Both of them put their guns away and gave statements to the police. What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The criminal practice of following and robbing people from high end stores or banks is called “jugging”.  Many banks let you make deposits to your bank accounts from your smartphone. Just photograph the front and back of the checks and send the images electronically. No visit to the bank required.  Withdrawing cash from an ATM or a bank can be risky. Getting cash from a grocery store, convenience store or a big box store is safer because there are lights, cameras and witnesses- three things that criminals hate.  The defender was carrying cash and/or deposits so his situational awareness should have been on “high alert”.  Could the defender have had a second, armed person go with him to the bank? Two armed defenders working together are four times more effective than a single defender working alone. Once the shooting was over, the defender or the employee should have cleared the store of customers or moved them to safety and then secured the doors. Bad guys are like wolves, they always travel in packs and you have to guard against any additional attacks until police arrive. You also have to be careful not to be seen or shot through glass windows. You have to be your own First Responder until the cavalry shows up.  Did the defender have the training and the equipment to handle trauma situations? Video cameras, inside and outside, don’t always stop attacks from occurring but they do help the police catch the robbers. Our third story happened in Carmichael, California. Rob- First this message from JPFO JPFO.org http://jpfo.org/ Rob- Third story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? You are in bed in your apartment. It is about 1am on Sunday morning when you hear someone beating on your front door. They are hitting the door really hard. Fortunately the door stays in place. You grab your gun and walk out of your bedroom. You see a stranger outside. He beats on your windows until he sees you. Then, he shoots at you through your window. You move and shoot back. Your attacker runs away and you call the police and ask for help. You put your gun away when the police arrive. You give a brief statement to the police. You show them your legally owned firearm. Officers find your attacker outside. He has a gunshot wound to the torso. The police call for Emergency Medical Services. The officers also find a stolen firearm with an illegal extended magazine. EMS takes your attacker to the hospital in serious but stable condition. A police spokesman said you were a hero. You faced a violent attack and defended yourself until officers could respond. All your shots hit your attacker. You found out that the attacker was looking for his girlfriend and thought she was in your apartment. You don’t know her and she never lived there as far as you know. You are not charged with a crime. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender responded to banging on the door. They took a gun with them when they investigated.  Fortunately the door withstood the attacker’s attempt to enter. The defender did not fire at the attacker while he was still outside nor did the defender shoot until fired upon. This was clearly an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to the defender’s life.  The defender moved when bullets started to fly. That made him/her a tougher target to hit. The defender shot the attacker without any stray bullets.   The defender did not pursue the attacker. The defender called 911, put their gun away when police arrived and only gave a brief statement.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) Best practices would be to call 911 from the bedroom as soon as possible. Yelling from a concealed position that you have already called the police and that you are armed can sometimes stop an attack before it starts.  If no one else is in the house, remaining in the bedroom behind cover/concealment and barricading the door is usually safer than confronting an attacker(s) in another, larger room with windows. The problem is that you don’t know how many attackers there are, where they are and whether they are armed or not. Tactics are more important than firepower.  Backlighting the attackers makes them an easier target and helps to conceal the defender.  “Blipping” a powerful flashlight in an attacker’s face can temporarily blind them and stop an attack.  Rob- When would your students learn to move as they shoot, and to shoot in low light conditions? Candy- Those are advanced tactics. Students learn about that once they have mastered the fundamentals. They need the fundamentals so they stay safe. Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Candy- Our fourth story took place in Chicago Illinois. Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at work as you drive? You are driving for a rideshare company. You pick up two customers just after midnight. Both the man and the woman get in the back seat. You start to drive when the man puts his gun to your head. You put on the brakes and get out of your car while it is still rolling. Your attacker gets out of the car and shoots at you. You shoot back. You keep shooting as he gets into your car and tries to drive away. The car stops because you have the keys in your pocket. Both of your attackers run away. It isn’t clear who called the police because your phone was in your car. So were the two cellphones of the robbers. You reholster your firearm and show the officers your Firearms Owners Identification Card and your carry permit. The officers find your attacker a block away. The female has a graze wound to her arm and the male was shot in the leg. Crime is surging in Chicago. Your attacker was out on probation for carjacking. This time he is held without bond. Politicians said that the problem isn’t the courts, but that cars are too easy to steal. You are not charged with a crime. What did our defender do correctly? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender took the time and money to get his/her concealed carry license in Illinois- that’s not easy and certainly not cheap there.  The defender carried a gun with him/her and probably had a plan since he/she worked in a dangerous job.  The defender fortunately was able to get out of the car without getting shot. He/she also took the keys with them.  The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to his/her life and he/she shot back when fired upon.  The defender refrained from firing an excessive amount of rounds and he/she managed to hit the targets. The defender reholstered his/her gun so as not to present a threat to the arriving police.  The defender stayed at the scene and gave the police a statement.  What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender wisely decided that his/her life was more important than the rideshare company’s rules against carrying a weapon. Jobs can be replaced – lives can’t.  Could the defender have installed a bulletproof glass shield between the passengers and the driver? They won’t stop all attacks and they are expensive.  Installing a visible video camera with remote digital storage might deter some attacks.  Could the defender have another armed person “ride shotgun” with him? Even if all of the rides are paid for electronically, the criminals will still carjack the drivers to get their cars. Carrying a gun increases the odds of survival but there are no guarantees. Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Candy, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Candy- Look for me at the Akron & Northcoast Ohio Chapters of A Girl and a Gun. I also teach at Northpointe Training, (and here> Northpointe Training) in Parma, Ohio. Rob- After you look at Candy’s articles, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. Candy- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_

Rob- Welcome to episode 324 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Tony Simon. How have you been, Tony? Tony- Hi, Rob. I’ve been really busy with diversity shoots. We’ve doing three of them this month. Donate at Diversityshoot.com How about you? Rob- We didn’t receive any new ratings or comments on iTunes. We’re still in a four way tie for third-place among all the second amendment podcasts in the United States. Please tell a friend about our podcast so we break that tie. Tony- If you already told your friends, then how about going to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen. Rob- Dwayne left us a message on Facebook and said he likes the show. He also gave us a story that we used. Roger Temple gave us his comments on our stories this week. Thank you, Dwayne and Roger. Please check out Roger’s bonus content on our website. Tony- We defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times each day in the US. We look at a few recent examples. As always, you can find the original news articles on our webpage. Our first story took place in Clovis, New Mexico. Rob- First Story- Are you armed at home? and here. You are a 26 year old woman. You’re at home on a Friday morning. It is about 10 am when you hear someone knock on your door. You’re not expecting anyone. You grab your gun and hear the sound of breaking wood and glass. Someone is breaking into your house. The news reports aren’t clear where you were standing, but you shoot your attacker when he is in the middle of your house. You step back and call 911. You stay at your home. You put your gun away when the police are nearby. You give a statement to the police when they arrive. Police examine your attacker and declare him dead at the scene. You identify your attacker. You have asked a judge for a restraining order against him. Your attacker had also been cited for trespassing onto your property before. The police look for security videos from the houses in the area. You are not charged with a crime. Tony- This defender made preparations that saved her life. She recognized that she was in an unusual situation. She faced an elevated threat from a particular person. She sought a restraining order. In some states those are called orders of personal protection. She also pressed charges when he came to her house when he wasn’t supposed to. That means she established the attacker’s ‘bad behavior’ in the eyes of the law. She bought a firearm and learned how to use it. She learned how to carry her firearm, and hopefully how to present it from her holster. Our defender locked her doors and windows. Let me remind everyone how important that is. The bad guy made a lot of noise when he broke down the front door. The homeowner paid attention to that noise and then reacted. Rather than being grabbed by surprise, she was able to turn toward the threat and get her gun out of her holster. When she saw the bad guy coming across her home toward her, she stopped the attacker before he could reach her. She stopped shooting when he stopped advancing. She stayed at the scene and asked for help. She put her gun away when the police arrived. She gave her statement to the police. The attacker’s body was found in the middle of the house. In order for it to have gotten there he would have had to step onto her property, break through her door, and continue to progress into her house. He had ample time to turn around and reconsider his life choices, but as we just read that was not the case.  I want to say, good on the victim for making that call to the authorities, as it’s very important that you get your story out there first.  Rob- She performed very well. Do you see something else you’d like your students to do? Tony- Oh yeah. Let’s put better screws into the strike plates and locks of your door. If you like, we can turn the door around so it opens outward. That makes it much harder to kick in from the outside. Also, I’d like you to stay in one of the rooms of your house. You can shoot from that room rather than moving into the middle of your house and getting into a gunfight. Plan to stay hidden and stay hard to hurt. Here is another thing to think about ahead of time. Can you describe why this individual was an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat after he broke into your home. You need to have an answer in order to justify the use of lethal force like using your firearm. I want our defender to have her carry permit so she is armed everywhere, and I want her to have a lawyer to call. (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender had a gun with her when she answered the knock on her door. She stopped shooting, stepped back to gain some distance and called 911 for help.  The defender stayed at the scene, put her gun away when police arrived and gave them a statement.  The defender had a restraining order on the attacker. The violation of the restraining order and the arrest for trespassing helped establish a pattern of criminal behavior for the attacker.  (Bullet points by Roger T.) Fortunately, the door to the home was locked- even during the day. The noise from breaking the door gave the defender a few precious seconds of warning. It also provided legal evidence of breaking and entering. Having a ring video camera is better.  The attacker was able to break in the front door. Reinforcing the hinges with 3” screws and adding an extended lock striker plate makes the door 5 times harder to breach. Applying hurricane impact film on any glass in or near the door stops an intruder from breaking the glass in order to reach in and unlock the door.  The intruder broke down the door but did he present an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to the defender? Could his actions or words be interpreted as a deadly threat or as a threat of major bodily harm? Even with Castle Doctrine, the attacker still has to provide a physical threat. Violation of a restraining order, trespassing and breaking and entering usually aren’t sufficient reasons to justify shooting someone. The story doesn’t say that the intruder was armed or not. Did the attacker yell “I’m going to kill you.”? Did he lunge at her? Could she articulate exactly what the intruder did at the moment to make her decide she had to shoot him? Use of deadly force depends on the totality of the circumstances. Know the use of force laws in your jurisdiction and be able to articulate your reasons for using deadly force to authorities. Could the defender have retreated to another room and barricaded the door instead of confronting her ex-boyfriend? The story doesn’t say where she was when she shot him. What were her options before she decided to shoot? A district attorney and a grand jury might ask such questions.   When did the defender know that the intruder was her “ex”- before or after she shot him? It was 10 am during the day so she probably had enough light to tell who he was since both of them were inside of the house.  Based on the information from the two website articles and the summary written here it would not be unusual for this case to be presented to a grand jury and possible trial.  Rob- Is there more we want to cover about this story? Tony- I’m good. Let’s go to Raleigh, North Carolina. Rob- Second Story- Are you armed as you drive? You’re driving down the road after work. It is about 5 in the evening when you notice a stranger honking at you. He is tailgating you. You pull over into a shopping center and park your car. Before you can call the police, a man runs up to your car door and opens it. You present your concealed firearm and shoot your attacker. He turns and runs. You stop shooting. You stay at the scene. You put down your gun and pick up your phone. You call 911 and ask for help. You talk to the police when they arrive. Police find your attacker nearby. EMS takes your attacker to the hospital. Police get several security videos from the stores nearby. They also talk to several witnesses who saw the man get out of his car and quickly run up to your car door. Police also reported that your attacker had a history of domestic violence. They reported that you had a clean criminal record. They said they don’t plan to press charges unless someone comes forward with different evidence. Your attacker died at the hospital. Tony- I like that our defender paid attention to what was happening around her as she drove down the road. That let her take in information and reach the decision that this wasn’t normal. She drove to a public location and pulled over in order to avoid the bad driver. I love that she was armed. She realized that bad things can happen to good people. Again, she recognized that a stranger running up to her car and opening the door is unusual. She defended herself. She stopped shooting when the bad guy ran away. She stayed there and called for help. She had her hands empty when the police arrived. I’m not sure how the attacker opened the door, but no matter the case we should always check our security as soon as we leave the safety of our homes. Checking our locks as we enter or leave vehicles can guarantee a safe place whenever we may need it.  Rob- Is there more that we should do that wasn’t mentioned in the news stories? Tony- Lock your car doors so the bad guy can’t open the door and grab you. I also want you to wear a holster so you have someplace to put your gun. The story doesn’t mention her having her carry permit, so I assume she did not have one. I want you to be able to re-holster your gun and retreat to a safe place. Maybe retreat into the nearest store and ask them to call 911 too. For bonus points, park in front of the store so you can drive away if the bad guy follows you. Unstrap your seatbelt before the car comes to a stop so you can immediately run into the store. You³’re betting that a faster escape is better than being buckled in if the crazy man rams your car. There are advantages to both. Do you have a voice system so your phone can call the police as you drive? (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender understood that the honking and tailgating were signs of a road rage incident and wisely drove to a shopping center where there were lights, cameras and witnesses. The defender had a gun with him/her and only shot the attacker AFTER the door was opened. This was an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat.  The defender stopped shooting when the attacker retreated and the defender did not pursue him.  The defender stayed at the scene, called 911, put down his/her gun and gave a statement to the police.  (Bullet points by Roger T.) The best place to go if you’re being followed is the closest police station. The next best place is a shopping center with big box stores. You want lights, cameras and lots of witnesses.  You want to park near the entrance but LEAVE YOURSELF AN ESCAPE ROUTE  to prevent your follower from boxing you in. Call 911 as soon as you can and give them where you plan to go, your exact location, physical descriptions of you and your attacker as well as descriptions of both cars. Make sure the dispatcher understands that you need help immediately and that you, the good guy/gal are armed.  2 Draw attention to yourself by honking your horn and turning on your hazard lights. The more witnesses you have the better your chances are that the follower won’t stop or attack.  Lock your doors and roll up your windows while keeping your car running so you can quickly pull away if you get the chance. Your car doors should be locked anytime you are in the car whether you are moving or not.  Release your seatbelt and pull your gun from the holster BEFORE you need it. Trying to draw your gun quickly from a holster on your belt while your seatbelt is buckled is almost impossible. Shoulder holsters give you better access to your gun when you are driving.  Some concealed carriers keep a small back-up gun/pocket holster in a chest pocket on their shirts when driving. Tony- Our third story happened in Salem, Indiana. Rob- First this message from the Second Amendment Foundation. Second Amendment Foundation SAF https://www.saf.org/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home? You’re working inside your home on a Monday morning. You hear a car drive up. You look outside and see a car driving across your yard. Your husband is working in the yard and the car stops near him. The driver gets out of his car and he runs up to your husband. The driver grabs your husband and pushes him to the ground. The attacker has a gun and points the gun at your husband’s head. You’re armed. The story isn’t clear if you shot from inside your house or if you moved to the front yard. You present your handgun and shoot the attacker until he drops his gun. You check on your husband. It isn’t clear which one of you called 911. Both of you remain at the scene. You put your gun away as the police arrive. EMS transports your attacker to the hospital. You and your husband give statements to the police. The attacker used to date your daughter, but that was a while ago and she doesn’t live here any longer. You’re not charged with a crime. Your attacker is declared dead at the hospital. Tony- I love it that our defender was paying attention and noticed a car drive across her yard. She was armed. She recognized a threat. She took decisive action to stop the threat. She stopped shooting when the threat stopped. One of the homeowners called 911 and got help on the way. It is important that the defender’s hands were empty when the police arrived, and both homeowners told the police what happened to them. Rob- What else do you see in this story? Tony- This was not a time to talk. This could have been a hostage shot with the bad guy positioned against your loved one. Know what you can do with your gun so you don’t hesitate. Since your loved one was being held at gunpoint, you want to shoot the attacker in the head so he stops immediately. Check on your loved one before you call 911. Also, I want all the adults in the house to be carrying concealed and to have their carry permits. That permit tells the cop that you don’t have a criminal record and that the bad guy lying there fertilizing the grass is probably the druggie. If the daughter found out that the ex-boyfriend was violent, I want her to tell her parents and her friends so they can be prepared. Again, I think you need a lawyer to help you fill out the police report. (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender heard and saw a car run up on the lawn and the driver  approached her husband. (Situational awareness). She didn’t ignore it nor did she freeze.  She recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to her husband and she reacted quickly by grabbing her gun and going to assist. The defender shot the attacker instead of trying to use verbal commands which probably would have put her husband and herself in mortal danger.  The defender kept shooting until the attacker dropped his gun. She checked on her husband and then one of them called 911 for help.  Both the defender and her husband remained at the scene and put the gun away when the police arrived.  The defender and her husband gave statements to the police.   (Bullet points by Roger T.) The husband should have been armed as well as his wife. You never know when trouble will drive up on your lawn. If your gun is out of reach you may be out of luck. What would have happened if the wife was out shopping when the attacker arrived? Don’t depend on someone else to save you. You must train and equip yourself to be your own first responder.  Fortunately, the wife was not only able to obtain a gun quickly but she was sufficiently skilled to shoot the attacker while he had a gun pointed at her husband’s head. Did she shoot from cover or concealment so the bad guy could not shoot back at her? What would have happened to her husband if she missed her target? Under the influence of adrenaline a good shooter becomes an average shooter. Did she know how to break the “tunnel vision” that occurs?  Since the attacker had his gun pointed at her husband’s head, the defender should have aimed for the attacker’s head, not his body. A head shot generally acts like a “lightswitch” that instantly stops the attacker from pulling his own trigger. That’s a small target and a tough shot under any conditions.  The defender checked her husband for any injuries. Did she have the equipment and the training to provide trauma care if needed? Hopefully, the couple had a self-defense plan with a lawyer to help them craft their statements to the police. They should have only given the cops the minimal facts at the scene and told the police that they would cooperate with the investigation after they had a chance to meet with their lawyer. According to Andrew Branka, even if you do everything right and legally correct, there’s still a 10% chance that you will be convicted if you are forced to go to criminal court. You also have to be concerned about a civil lawsuit.  Did the daughter know that her ex-boyfriend could be violent? Did she tell her parents? Did she have a restraining order on him? A restraining order is only a piece of paper that probably won’t stop an attack from occurring but it does provide a legal trail that shows a pattern of behavior. Rob- Where are we going for our last story? Tony- Our last story took place in Memphis, Tennessee. Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at work? You work in the office of a Jewish Day School. This is a preparation week when teachers, staff, and maintenance contractors get the school ready for the next term. It is just after noon when you hear several gunshots outside. You check the video cameras and see a man walking away from the front doors. The doors are locked because students are not arriving or leaving at this time. You capture the video from the cameras and call the police for help. You give the video to your security company that works with Jewish schools. You also give a copy of the video to the police. The security company identifies the attacker’s license plate and then identifies the attacker. He used to be a student at the school. Police receive the attacker’s identity and put out the alert. They find your attacker and pull over his truck in a traffic stop. The attacker gets out of his truck and shoots at the police. Police shoot back and stop the attacker. EMS takes the attacker to the hospital. He is 33 years old. No one else was injured by the attacker’s gunfire. The reports don’t describe the repair required on the front door and windows of the school. The attacker was charged with criminal attempted second-degree murder, carrying weapons on school property, reckless endangerment, possessing a firearm during the commission of a felony, and assault against a police officer. Tony- This story tells us what good preparation can do for us. The doors and windows were locked. The glass was reinforced. The contractors knew that they shouldn’t let someone inside that didn’t go through the front office and sign in. In this situation, the defenders did not go outside looking for a bad guy. I like that they had a video system. They also had a security network in place to analyze the video for them. They got that information to the police quickly. That probably means they knew who to contact at the department. In other words, they had a plan. Rob- Give us the rest of the story? Tony- I hope that the school has trained and armed school staff because there are several times a day when there are students outside the school and they need someone there to protect them. Let me correct that, they need several people to protect them, not just one. A single off duty police officer is not enough. Some attackers will stay and fight rather than drive away like this one did. Train all your staff in first aid, and have trauma kits located around the school. Since this was a preparation period, I hope that they had rehearsals with the safety team. If you know your school is going to be empty for a few days, one way to get a combined exercise with your staff and the local police is to let the police use your empty school as a training site. The police will often work together with your staff at the end of their exercise.  Rob- You’re talking about lots of places where children and families gather. That could be schools, churches, daycare centers, recreation centers, and it could be summer camps. That is a little different than what you deal with everyday. Where do you send those defenders to learn more? Tony- That depends. It could be a single defender protecting children in her home like a home daycare situation. That is a lot like defense in the home. At the other extreme, it could be a campus with a dozen armed defenders and an equal number of medical trauma care providers. That takes more team training and coordination with law enforcement and EMTs. There are school networks and church networks that share what they’ve learned about defense. (Bullet points by Roger T.) The defender heard gunfire and recognized a potentially lethal threat. He/she checked the video system and immediately notified the security company and the police. The defender did not leave the building in order to pursue the attacker. Kudos to the school for locking the doors and having security glass in them. Hardening of the perimeter is a very important initial part of a multi-layered safety plan. It’s the first line of defense.  (Bullet points by Roger T.) Having only one, uniformed resource officer, armed or unarmed is not the answer. Not only can one person not be expected to secure the inside and the outside of a large building and its parking lot(s), any uniformed officer is always the first target to be shot. Concealed defense is the best defense. Hopefully the school’s teachers/staff have received F.A.S.T.E.R. training and they have the equipment on hand to save lives. That includes the critical training and the equipment to provide trauma first aid as well as defensive tactics and the use of firearms. Fortunately, there were no students/staff present outside of the building at the time of this attack and consequently there were no injuries. Since 50% of the fatalities in active school shootings occur outside of the school, what was the defender or the school’s plan if there were staff or students present outside of the building during an attack?  The school’s safety plan needs to include how to handle a hostage situation inside and/or outside of the school building. What to do if the shooter uses hostages to gain access to the building? The school’s safety plan also needs to address how to get the staff/students to a safe location whether the shooter is inside or outside of the building.  The plan also needs to consider that the active shooter may fire at the students/staff through the glass windows from the outside.  He may also try to enter the building through the windows, the roof, side entrances or even the ventilation system.  What if the attacker uses a car/truck to ram the entrance doors? Do all of the entrance doors and side doors have bollards or concrete planters? The plan also needs to include what to do in case the attacker uses fire or some type of gas instead of a firearm.  The quicker the active shooter meets with resistance, the fewer casualties there will be. Time is the most critical factor. Waiting for the police to show up and then quickly engage the active shooter is not a good strategy. (Remember the Uvalde school shooting).  Exit-  Rob- That wraps up this episode. Tony, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you? Tony- Find me at Diversityshoot.com  I’m also on Instagram and facebook at Simon Says Train, and at The 2nd is For Everyone podcast. Rob- I hope you look at Tony podcasts and at his classes. Then, please leave Tony a message on the self defense gun stories episode webpage. Tony- We share this podcast with you for free. Please help us attract new listeners by sharing the podcast with a friend and giving us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes. We’re also available on Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio. Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us I’m Rob Morse.  We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories. ~_~_