Song Exploder

My guest today is my friend Samin Nosrat, the author of the bestselling, award-winning cookbook Salt Fat Acid Heat, and the host and executive producer of the hit Netflix show that's based on it. Her second cookbook comes out this fall, and it's called Good Things: Recipes and Rituals to Share With People You Love.  Back in March 2020, Samin and I started a podcast together called Home Cooking, where we answered people's anxious questions about cooking in the time of the pandemic and lockdown. And we're bringing that podcast back later this year.  Samin is one of my closest friends. We've been there for each other for all of the most important moments of our lives over the years that we've known each other. But with a total lack of consideration to our friendship, it turns out Samin’s had important moments in her life from before we met. But we're going to make up for lost time, and she's going to talk to me about one of them today. For more, visit songexploder.net/keychange. You can listen to "Untouchable Face" by Ani DiFranco here. 

Jake Lenderman plays and records under the name MJ Lenderman. He put out his first album in 2019. In addition to his solo work, he’s been a member of the band Wednesday, and he’s also featured on the Waxahatchee hit song “Right Back to It." In September 2024, the fourth MJ Lenderman album came out. It’s called Manning Fireworks. The New Yorker named it the best album of the year, and Stereogum, Rolling Stone and Pitchfork all put it in their top ten. For this episode, I talked to Jake about one of the songs from that album, called “You Don’t Know the Shape I’m In.” The song itself took shape in a few different ways. Coming up, you’ll hear the way the song started as a demo, and then how that got fleshed out, and then how it got rebuilt, and then how Jake completely reimagined the whole thing. For more info, visit songexploder.net/mj-lenderman.

My guest today is James Acaster, a comedian, author, musician, and interviewer. He's filmed comedy specials for HBO and Netflix, which are hilarious and high concept. His musical project, Temps, has released an album and an EP. He’s written multiple books, including one about how the year 2016 was the greatest year for music. James also co-hosts the food podcast Off Menu, with comedian Ed Gamble. And I've listened to more hours of Off Menu than any other podcast. James and Ed don't know it, but they're my best friends. And I have lured James out of the parasocial relationship that we have in my head and into this conversation with me, to talk about a song that had a profound effect on his life. For more, visit songexploder.net/keychange.  You can listen to "Hey Ya!" by OutKast here.

Lucy Dacus has a new album coming out on March 28th, called Forever Is A Feeling. So, in the week before it comes out, I thought it could be nice to revisit her Song Exploder episode from 2021. It’s about the beautiful and brutally heartbreaking song "Thumbs," which I love. And since recording that episode, Lucy's won three Grammy awards as part of her band Boygenius, including Album of the Year. But back in 2021, I had a really nice afternoon talking to Lucy. She was the first guest to come over and record with me at my studio, in person, after COVID hit. So I have a lot of fond memories about this one, and I hope you’ll enjoy listening or re-listening to it with me. Lucy Dacus is a singer and songwriter from Richmond, Virginia. She put out her first album in 2016, and in 2018 she formed the band Boygenius with Julien Baker and Phoebe Bridgers. In June 2021, she released her third album, Home Video, which includes this song, "Thumbs." The first time I heard it, I knew I wanted to ask Lucy about how and why she made it. After some COVID testing, we spoke in person here in Los Angeles. And she told me the story of how "Thumbs" took months and months to get right.  For more, visit songexploder.net/lucy-dacus.

The TV show Severance debuted on Apple TV+ in February 2022. It was created by writer Dan Erickson, and developed into a series by director and executive producer Ben Stiller. He directed the pilot and most of the episodes. After the first season came out, Severance was nominated for 14 Emmys, including Outstanding Drama Series, and it won two Emmys: for Main Title Design and for Musical Composition. I love this show, and the main title sequence is incredible. I was so excited to get to talk to the composer, Theodore Shapiro, about how he made the main title theme music. In this episode, you’ll hear how that theme first came into existence in a totally different form, and then, how Teddy re-imagined it to become the final version.  For more, visit songexploder.net/severance.

Key Change is a conversation series within Song Exploder, where I talk to fascinating people about the music that's transformed them.  My guest today is Hanif Abdurraqib, a poet, cultural critic, and New York Times bestselling author of books like They Can't Kill us Until They Kill Us, Go Ahead in the Rain: Notes to A Tribe Called Quest, and A Little Devil in America, which won the Andrew Carnegie medal for nonfiction. I've been a guest on Hanif's podcast, Object of Sound, and I just love reading and hearing his thoughts about music. When I first started toying with the idea for this Key Change series, I was specifically excited about the idea that it could give me the chance to have Hanif on as a guest. For more, visit songexploder.net/keychange.  You can listen to "Lost in the Supermarket" by The Clash here. 

Sasami is a singer, songwriter and producer who grew up in Los Angeles. But now she’s based in Northern California, and as you’ll hear in this episode, that’s significant. Sasami went to school for classical French horn. She was in the band Cherry Glazerr, and she’s had a lot of collaborations with other artists on their projects and her own. Collaboration is at the heart of the song that I talked to her about for this episode. It’s called “In Love With A Memory,” and it features Clairo on vocals, and it was co-produced with Grammy-winning producer Rostam. The song is on Sasami’s third album, Blood on the Silver Screen, which is out March 2025. Coming up, you’ll hear the original voice memos that she recorded for this song back in the fall of 2022. You’ll also hear the demo she made in Garageband after that, and then how she and Rostam turned that demo into the final version, a duet with Clairo. For more info, visit songexploder.net/sasami.

Kevin Barnes started of Montreal in 1996 in Athens, Georgia. The Sunlandic Twins came out in 2005; it was their seventh album. And I remember when that album came out, how it felt like they were suddenly everywhere. And the breakout song from that breakout album was “Wraith Pinned to the Mist and Other Games.” And so, for this episode, I spoke to Kevin Barnes about how that song came together, and what it meant to them then, and what it means to them now.  For more info, visit songexploder.net/of-montreal.

Key Change is a new conversation series within Song Exploder, where I talk to fascinating people about the music that's transformed them. My first guest is Sophie Thatcher, an actor and musician whose credits include starring in the TV show Yellowjackets, the film Heretic, and the new movie Companion. I met Sophie through Companion, because I composed the score to the film, and she contributes vocals to a few of the tracks I wrote. For this episode, we discussed how "Waltz #1" by Elliott Smith shaped Sophie's tastes and work.  For more, visit songexploder.net/keychange.  You can listen to "Waltz #1" by Elliott Smith here. 

Yola is a singer/songwriter and actress. She released her solo debut album in 2019, which was nominated for 4 Grammys, including Best New Artist and Best Americana Album, and Rolling Stone named it one of the best country albums of the year. But the thing is, Yola’s music career wasn’t new, and her background wasn’t in country music. She’s from Bristol in the UK, and starting back in the early 2000s, she was a vocalist recording tracks for DJs and electronic music producers. In January 2025, Yola put out an EP called My Way. And as you’ll hear her explain in this episode, a lot of her new music is motivated by wanting to assert her identity beyond the Americana and country music boundaries. In addition to her music, she’s also acting – she played Sister Rosetta Tharpe in the 2022 film Elvis, and she starred on Broadway in the musical Hadestown. For this episode, I talked to Yola about her song “Symphony,” along with co-writer and co-producer Sean Douglas. Yola and Sean trace the journey of the song “Symphony,” and, along with it, Yola traces her own journey, too. For more info, visit songexploder.net/yola.

Adrianne Lenker is a singer and songwriter. She’s the lead singer of the critically acclaimed and beloved band Big Thief, and her work as a solo artist is also critically acclaimed and beloved. Her most recent solo album, Bright Future, was named one of the best albums of 2024 by the New Yorker, Stereogum, and more, and it was nominated for a Grammy for Best Folk Album. It was co-produced by Adrianne and longtime collaborator Phil Weinrobe. And I talked to the two of them about the making of one of my favorite songs from it, “Sadness As a Gift.” For more, visit songexploder.net/adrianne-lenker.

Gracie Abrams is a singer and songwriter from Los Angeles. She started putting out music in 2020, and in June 2024, she put out her second album, The Secret of Us. She was nominated for a Grammy for Best New Artist, and this year she’s up for another Grammy, for Best Duo Performance, for her collaboration with Taylor Swift. But for this episode, I talked to Gracie about her song “I Love You, I’m Sorry.” It was produced by Aaron Dessner, at Long Pond Studio in upstate New York, and it was co-written with Audrey Hobert. Coming up, you’ll hear the isolated tracks from the studio recording, but you’ll also get to hear a lot of the voice memos that Gracie recorded during the writing process. I think it’s so nice to have these raw moments documented because, as you’ll hear, they give you an insight not just into the song, but into the relationship that Gracie and her co-writer Audrey have as friends. For more, visit songexploder.net/gracie-abrams. 

Katie Crutchfield is a singer and songwriter from Birmingham, Alabama. She’s been making music under the name Waxahatchee since 2010. Her fifth album, Saint Cloud, came out this past March. Pitchfork named it Best New Music, and The Guardian called it the best album of the year so far. In this episode, Katie breaks down how she made the song “Fire." This episode was originally published July 29, 2020. For more, visit songexploder.net/waxahatchee.

Le Tigre originally formed in 1998. They released their self-titled debut album in October 1999. Spin Magazine called it one of the best albums of the past 30 years, and Pitchfork called it one of the best albums of the 90s. I listened to that album a lot when it came out, and 25 years later, I still hear songs from it everywhere, on TV and in movies, and just out in the world – especially the song “Deceptacon.” For this episode, I talked to Kathleen Hanna and Johanna Fateman from Le Tigre about how they wrote it, and how they put the track together. For more, visit songexploder.net/le-tigre. 

In 1968, singer and songwriter Graham Nash joined David Crosby and Stephen Stills to form the supergroup Crosby, Stills & Nash. All of them had already been in successful bands: Graham Nash had been in The Hollies; David Crosby was in The Byrds; and Stephen Stills was in Buffalo Springfield. The next year, Neil Young joined them, to make Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young. The four of them released Deja Vu in 1970, and that album was a huge success. It sold over 8 million copies. It includes the song “Our House,” and for this episode, I spoke to Graham Nash about the making of that song, and the relationship that led to the song. For more, visit songexploder.net/crosby-stills-nash-and-young.

Pharrell Williams is—well, let me just say, he’s a big reason why Song Exploder exists. He’s a singer, songwriter and producer, and in the 90s, when I first heard the work that he was doing with the Neptunes, which was his production duo with Chad Hugo, it blew my mind. It made me want to know where those sounds came from and where those ideas came from. Pharrell has won 13 Grammys. He’s been nominated for two Oscars. He’s produced iconic songs for Kendrick Lamar, Britney Spears, Clipse, Gwen Stefani, and so many others. And on his own, he’s made songs like “Happy,” the giant hit for Despicable Me that was the best-selling song of 2014. And now, there’s a movie about his life called Piece by Piece. But it’s an animated Lego film. For this episode, I talked to Pharrell about the title song from Piece By Piece. So, coming up, you'll hear how Pharrell built that song, including a first draft that never saw the light of day. You’ll hear how he built “Piece by Piece” by programming it, on his own, with MIDI instruments, and then adding and replacing those parts with other musicians, including the high school marching band that he used to play in.  For more, visit songexploder.net/pharrell.

For the last couple weeks, I’ve been getting ready for a trip I’m going to make to Connecticut, to moderate a conversation between Jon Batiste and his wife, the author Suleika Jaouad. So I’ve been deep in my prep and research, and I thought about the first time I ever spoke to Jon Batiste, which was for a Song Exploder episode that came out back in March 2021. A lot has happened for Jon since then. At the time, his album We Are was brand new. The next year, he ended up getting 11 Grammy nominations, and winning 5 of them, including Album of the Year. Jon and Suleika were also the subjects of the award-winning documentary American Symphony. I really enjoyed our conversation, and I wanted to revisit it. So here it is: Jon Batiste is a pianist, songwriter, and composer from New Orleans. He’s been nominated for multiple Grammys, and just won the Golden Globe and got an Oscar nomination for the soundtrack to the Pixar film Soul, which he composed along with Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross. Jon is also a recipient of the American Jazz Museum’s Lifetime Achievement Award, and on weeknights, you can see him as the bandleader on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. In March 2021, he put out his new album, We Are. But the title track from it actually came out much earlier, in June 2020. In this episode, Jon talks about how he drew from his roots, both at a personal level and at a cultural level, and wove all of it into the song. For more, visit songexploder.net/jon-batiste.

Troye Sivan is a singer and songwriter from Australia. He’s been nominated for a Golden Globe, two Grammys, and he’s won four of Australia’s ARIA awards. His song “My My My!” was a #1 hit on the Billboard Dance Chart, and his third album, Something to Give Each Other, was one of Billboard’s picks for the best albums of 2023. Troye’s also an actor; he was in the HBO series The Idol, which figures into the story that he tells about this song. Troye came to the studio and we talked about how he made one of his big hits, the song “One of Your Girls.” For that song, he worked with two of his longtime collaborators: his frequent songwriting partner, Leland, and producer Oscar Görres.  For more, visit songexploder.net/troye-sivan.

Beabadoobee is an award-winning singer and songwriter from England who’s been releasing music since 2017. Her third album is called This Is How Tomorrow Moves. It came out in August 2024 and went to #1 on the UK charts. She made the album with her bandmate Jacob Bugden and with producer Rick Rubin at his studio, Shangri-La, in Malibu. And for this episode, I talked to Bea about a song from that album called “Coming Home.” For more, visit songexploder.net/beabadoobee. 

Remi Wolf is a singer and songwriter originally from Palo Alto, California. She’s been releasing music since 2019. She performed at Coachella in 2023, and has toured with Olivia Rodrigo, Lorde, and Paramore. Her second album, Big Ideas, came out in July 2024. I talked to Remi about how she and her collaborators wrote and produced the song “Soup.” How they used 80s gear to make 80s sounds, and how a fun anthem quickly turned into something pretty vulnerable. For more, visit songexploder.net/remi-wolf.