Spiritual Life and Leadership

Jews for Jesus helps Jewish people come to know Jesus, the Jewish Messiah. What’s fascinating is how Jews for Jesus has not only remained committed to that mission of sharing the hope of the Jewish Messiah, but has also adapted as the world around it has changed. As ministry leaders, we face the tension between time-honored tradition and the need for fresh approaches—and the story of Jews for Jesus offers some compelling lessons in adaptive leadership. In this episode, Aaron Abramson, CEO of Jews for Jesus and author of Mission Design, shares how Jews for Jesus has reimagined its strategies for sharing the gospel, as well as how leaders can cultivate a posture of learning and flexibility without compromising core convictions.   THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Jews for Jesus began as a movement to share the gospel with Jewish people, focusing on presenting the message in accessible and relevant ways. Aaron Abramson clarifies that believing in Jesus as the Messiah does not require abandoning Jewish identity. The earliest followers of Jesus were Jewish, and the concept of Gentiles joining Jesus was initially controversial in the early church. Markus Watson asks Aaron Abramson to share his own journey of faith and what led him to believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Religious and cultural barriers often make it challenging for Jewish people to consider faith in Jesus. Jews for Jesus historically used bold street evangelism, including handing out creative broadsides and literature on college campuses. Aaron Abramson observes that the primary strategy for evangelism shifted as cultural contexts and modes of communication changed. The rise of digital communication made traditional street evangelism less effective for connecting with Jewish people. Aaron Abramson describes pivoting to a process of empathetic listening and learning from the communities he was trying to reach. Teams at Jews for Jesus began to adopt audience-centric communication, tailoring their approach for different Jewish communities and subgroups. Aaron Abramson explains the development of new outreach models, such as setting up coffee shops and arts ministries as relational spaces. Ministry teams use design thinking, prototyping, and iteration to refine new strategies and measure their impact. Changing methodologies and staying adaptive allow Jews for Jesus to remain effective in reaching diverse Jewish audiences. Markus Watson highlights the importance of continually learning and adapting, affirming that keeping a posture of learning leads to meaningful change. RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS: Jews for Jesus website “So Be It” Youtube channel Books mentioned:Mission Design, by Aaron Abramason Center Church, by Tim Keller Related episodes:187: Tackling Adaptive Challenges in Church Leadership, with Angie Ward 264: Building a Future-Focused Church, with Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Raymond Ch Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Explore how real transformation in spiritual leadership begins with listening deeply to your community and letting curiosity—not certainty—shape your mission. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Shannon Kiser in Ep. 280, Empowering Leaders for Creative Mission: “Fresh expressions always start with listening and being attentive to who God is putting on your heart.” THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Leaders cultivate fresh expressions of church by listening deeply to their communities. Adaptive leadership emerges when leaders prioritize curiosity about people over quick solutions. Experiments in ministry prompt learning rather than simply measuring success or failure. New missional creativity grows out of attentive relationships, not just innovative ideas. Leaders empower others by embracing humility and care before offering expertise or vision. Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

What if the best leadership isn’t about having the answers, but about asking the questions that draw out wisdom, connection, and creativity from those around us? What if the most transformational moments in ministry happen not when we speak—but when we invite others to share, reflect, and dream with us? In this episode, J.R. Briggs, author of The Art of Asking Better Questions discusses how asking great questions can open new possibilities for ministry leaders and lead to healthier, more effective leadership—for ourselves and our churches. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: JR Briggs describes how questions neurologically "hijack" our brains, engaging us much more deeply than simple information does. Questions foster both clarity and engagement, enabling deeper connection and creativity between people. JR Briggs identifies several cultural obstacles to asking questions, including conversational narcissism, a lack of curiosity, and the fear of awkwardness. Healthy questions play a crucial role in building connection and trust, especially in an age marked by loneliness. JR Briggs attributes his passion for asking questions to observing his father's genuine curiosity and care for others. The quality of your life depends on the quality of questions you ask yourself, God, and others. Deliberate practice, such as collecting good questions and “gaming” conversations, strengthens one’s ability to ask better questions. JR Briggs outlines four levels of questions: information, interaction, understanding, and transformation, each deepening relational impact. JR Briggs encourages leaders to move beyond transactional questions and pursue transformational conversations grounded in trust. Curiosity, wisdom, humility, and courage are essential virtues for asking effective questions. Markus Watson notes that leading with questions, rather than only answers, builds stronger relationships and trust as a pastor. Great leaders amplify others and cultivate deep curiosity, according to JR Briggs’s research and coaching experience. Questions create space for spiritual direction, hospitality, and genuine pastoral care within ministries. Slowing down and asking questions in tense moments, instead of having knee-jerk reactions, can lead to greater understanding and connection. Jesus used questions extensively—over 300 in the New Testament—to provoke thought, deepen engagement, and transform lives. RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS: Kairos Partnerships Books mentioned:The Art of Asking Better Questions, by J.R. Briggs Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger Related episodes:Episode 240: Leading with Wisdom from Above, with Uli Chi Episode 270: Evangelism as Consolation, with Andrew Root Episode 278: Preaching in Today’s Post-Christian World, with Mark Glanville Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Discover why leading in today’s church means listening deeply to people’s questions, griefs, and dreams—before ever stepping into the pulpit. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Mark Glanville in Ep. 278, Preaching in Today's Post-Christian World: "People are walking to church now, not with the Bible under their arm, but with complex and genuine questions, with hopes, with dreams, with griefs on their heart, sometimes with a complex relationship with the Bible itself.” THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Church leaders face the complexity of guiding people who bring diverse backgrounds, questions, hopes, dreams, and griefs. Pastoral leaders prioritize listening to the congregation before offering teaching or guidance. Leaders shape sermons and leadership approaches by engaging deeply with people’s real-life experiences and struggles. Adaptive leadership requires creating community among people who differ in their spiritual journeys and relationships with scripture. Effective preaching and leadership begin with meaningful relationships and conversations, not just expertise or information delivery. Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

As ministry leaders, we often imagine that building trust is the ultimate goal—once we have it, the road to transformation should be clear. But what happens when trust alone isn’t enough? The truth is, trust is only the starting point. Moving beyond it requires us to invest our trust in ways that actually make change possible, even when it means taking risks and facing loss together. In this episode, Tod Bolsinger, author of Invest in Transformation: Quit Relying on Trust, shares why trust is essential but insufficient for transformative leadership, how we can begin to discern our congregation’s unique calling, and what it takes to wisely invest trust as we guide people through the challenges of adaptive change. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Tod Bolsinger asserts that there is no transformation without trust. Leadership requires energizing a community toward its own transformation for the sake of a shared mission. People will not trust a leader to guide them through difficult change if they don’t trust them with current, familiar responsibilities. Leaders build trust through both trustworthy character and technical competence. Relational congruence means consistently showing up as the same person in all relationships, reinforcing trust. Even leaders of good character need to be experienced by others as trustworthy in daily interactions. Technical competence in areas such as scripture, soul care, and organizational skills is non-negotiable for pastoral leaders. Trust is the bank account that leaders must invest (and spend) when leading adaptive or transformational change. When transformation is pursued, trust levels may decrease as change creates uncertainty and resistance. Tod Bolsinger notes that maintaining trust means not squandering it on trivial matters, but instead strategically investing it in real transformation. The process of transformation begins with clarifying a congregation’s unique charism—its distinctive gift to the broader community. Charism emerges from actual values and stories, not from aspirational wish lists or debates about what a church “should” be. Discerning a congregation’s charism requires telling stories about the times they were most proud of the church. Identifying a congregation’s charism is followed by asking how it can address the pain points of the community, thus connecting internal giftedness with external needs. Transformation always involves loss, and truly adaptive change means some may leave, but new vibrancy and alignment with mission can develop as a result. RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS: Church Leadership Institute Books mentioned:Invest in Transformation: Quit Relying on Trust, by Tod Bolsinger Related episodes:230. The Power of an 8-word Mission Statement, with Tod Bolsinger 264. Building a Future-Focused Church, with Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Raymond Chang 272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh Hayden Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Learn how transformational leaders can unlock real change by listening deeply to their neighborhoods—before making big plans for the future. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Josh Hayden in Ep. 272, Beyond Church Revitalization. "Remissioning leaders have to do the steady work of exegeting the neighborhood, and doing the exegesis work of the church before they make big plans about what success or flourishing looks like for our church or our neighbors." THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Remissioning leaders exegete both their neighborhoods and their churches before making big plans for success or flourishing. Leaders develop a deep understanding of their community by listening, observing, and engaging with the local context. Churches resist imposing ideas by prioritizing understanding over assumptions when entering a neighborhood. Teams uncover the unique strengths and pain points of their neighborhoods by spending devoted time within them. Faith communities help neighborhoods flourish when they build connections and respond to local needs in the name of Jesus. Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Why is it that so many ministry leaders—people called to reflect Christ’s love—so often end up burned out, disillusioned, or driven by power and platform instead of humility and service? It’s heartbreaking when church leadership doesn’t “smell like the gospel,” and instead resembles the very systems of profit and self-promotion it should prophetically resist. In this episode, Jason Jensen, Vice President of Spiritual Foundations for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and author of Formed to Lead, unpacks what true spiritual formation for leaders looks like, how to hold humility and faith in tension, and how suffering and the wilderness can become gifts in our ministry. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Jason Jensen observes that much leadership in the church fails to reflect the gospel and often focuses on power, platform, or profit. Large numbers of Christian leaders experience burnout or moral, character, or spiritual failure, leading to disillusionment among younger generations. Jason Jensen asserts that the Gospel of Luke presents a radically different, subversive vision of leadership, centering the vulnerable and overlooked. Leadership in God’s kingdom includes all people, from parents to presidents, and turns conventional power dynamics upside down. Christian leadership requires holding together the paradox of tender humility and bold faith. Jason Jensen describes the spiritual formation of a leader as a lifelong, iterative process marked by failure, repentance, and receiving the love of God. Embracing wilderness seasons—times of pain, failure, or dryness—is essential for spiritual growth and character development. Markus Watson invites Jason Jensen to share from personal experience how suffering shaped his faith and leadership, prompting stories of transformation after injury and failure. Experiencing grief, loss, and mistakes can be some of the most formative experiences for a leader’s development and empathy. Depth and authenticity in leadership are formed by embracing—not bypassing—suffering and wilderness experiences. Jason Jensen highlights Steve Hayner’s example of leadership, specifically his ability to listen well, include others, and help others feel loved and safe. Steve Hayner practiced “expansive discourse” and adaptive leadership, carrying pain with others and facilitating mutual learning rather than judgment. Sustainable organizational change requires time, patience, and leaders who bring everyone to the table and foster shared purpose. Offering one’s life—and even one’s death—as a gift to God and others represents the culmination of a spiritual journey, embodying humility, sacrifice, and openness. RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS: Jason Jensen:formedtolead.com Instagram X Facebook Books mentioned:Formed to Lead, by Jason Jensen Related episodes:244. Finding Strength in Desperation, with Mandy Smith Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Discover why real transformation happens when leaders have the courage to journey with people into their sorrow and bring the hope of Christ to the places of deepest pain. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Andrew Root in Ep. 270, Evangelism as Consolation: "What we really need, what people yearn for, is someone who will journey with them into their sorrow and to proclaim and witness to a Jesus Christ who is present in sorrow." THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Leaders embody the gospel by journeying with people into their pain and sorrow. Churches bring transformation by listening to and addressing the pain of their neighbors. Faithful leadership means grieving alongside others while holding on to hope. Evangelism becomes good news when we accompany others in their sorrow, not just share inspiring visions. Congregations foster trust and transformation by walking with people through loss and change. Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

The COVID-19 crisis pushed churches to reimagine everything from Sunday worship to committee meetings, often thrusting them onto unfamiliar digital ground. Navigating livestreams, Zoom calls, and online communion, ministry leaders have had to ask: What does it mean to truly be the body of Christ in a hybrid or even fully online world? In this episode, Michael Huerter, author of The Hybrid Congregation, talks about the theological and practical implications of digital ministry, how technology is shaping Christian community today, and what it looks like to do incarnational ministry in a time when “embodiment” often includes both physical and digital presence. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Michael Huerter identifies the technological revolution as a challenge that forces churches to quickly adapt, especially accelerated by the COVID-19 pandemic. Churches adapted rapidly to online worship out of necessity, often improvising by streaming or recording services for the first time. Michael Huerter describes the struggle of clergy to reflect theologically about worship changes while managing weekly ministry demands. The shift to online ministry required pastors to find new ways to foster belonging and community amid isolation. Integrating online technology into church life raises theological questions but can also expand accessibility and connection. Michael Huerter explains that congregations faced difficult questions around sacraments, like communion, during virtual services and responded differently based on tradition. Worship communities discovered that virtual meetings, such as board meetings and Bible studies, created new conveniences and altered expectations for gathering together. Online ministry allows for broader participation, particularly for those unable to attend in person due to distance, weather, or health. Michael Huerter discusses the tension between the benefits of hybrid models and the losses in personal connection that come from shifting meetings and worship online. Participating in both physical and online ministry offers unique strengths and limitations in forming authentic community. The theological call to be incarnational does not require rejecting technology; rather, ministry can thoughtfully incorporate digital tools as part of discipleship. Michael Huerter pushes back against the idea that digital practices conflict with incarnational theology, highlighting historical uses of technology in church growth. Passive participation in online worship, such as listening to music or liturgy, still engages the body and spirit and remains spiritually meaningful. Michael Huerter urges pastors to approach technology with a people-first mindset, focusing on community needs rather than pursuing reach or production value for its own sake. Discernment, curiosity, and pastoral care are key for churches navigating ongoing technological changes and competing values in ministry. RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS: Books mentioned:The Hybrid Congregation, by Michael Huerter 131: Spiritual Leadership in the Digital Space, with Laura Murray Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Ministry can stir up all kinds of feelings, especially when we’re dealing with conflict, with grief, with change. And the better we understand what’s happening beneath the surface, the better we can lead ourselves—and our people—more thoughtfully and more effectively. In this episode, I’m speaking with Dr. Audrey Davidheiser, a licensed psychologist and the author of Grieving Wholeheartedly. Audrey helps us understand something called Internal Family Systems—IFS—a powerful way of thinking about our inner world and all those “parts” of us that can get in the way of effective leadership. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Audrey Davidheiser explains what drew her to Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy. Internal Family Systems is a psychological model that views people as having multiple internal "parts." Parts of yourself often express themselves in day-to-day decisions, sometimes even in conflict with each other. Markus Watson clarifies that having "parts" is different from dissociative identity disorder or multiple personalities. Audrey Davidheiser explains the difference between parts in IFS and the rigid, unaware system found in Dissociative Identity Disorder. Internal Family Systems builds on the foundation of family systems theory, adapting it to the internal world. Inside everyone are parts that take on different roles, often formed in response to significant experiences, such as trauma or relational wounds. Markus Watson illustrates the concept with the example of feeling different internal responses to everyday situations like going to a late-night movie. Every person has both helpful and challenging internal parts, such as critics, achievers, or comfort-seekers, and these parts influence behavior. Audrey Davidheiser introduces three types of parts in IFS: exiles (hurt parts), managers (protective parts), and firefighters (distracting/soothing parts). Parts are not inherently bad; even when their actions are destructive, they are typically trying to protect us or relieve pain. Markus Watson inquires about the relationship between sin and IFS, prompting Audrey Davidheiser to articulate how parts can miss the mark despite good intentions. Pastors can benefit from understanding their own internal parts, especially when reacting to challenging questions or situations in ministry. Audrey Davidheiser suggests the practice of being "unblended"—letting the true Self, rather than an emotional part, lead when responding to others. Leaders who operate from their "Self" (instead of from a part) can foster healthier responses and guide their communities through change with greater empathy and wisdom. RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS: Audrey DavidheiserAim For Breakthrough website Books mentioned:Grieving Wholeheartedly, by Audrey Davidheiser Related Episodes:262: From Fired to Flourishing, with Chuck DeGroat 254: Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Learn how keeping “the main thing the main thing” can transform your church’s mission, focus your decisions, and unite your community as one body in Christ. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Terry A. Smith in Ep. 266, The Church as Shalom Maker: "I work so hard to make sure that we keep the main thing the main thing, that we don't get caught up in things that keep us from who we are supposed to be as one body in Christ." THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Leaders clarify the main purpose by engaging in candid conversations about mission. Churches discern their mission by identifying who they are called to reach and impact. Teams make decisions more effectively when their mission and values are clearly defined. Leaders recognize that clarity about core values prepares organizations for necessary change. Focusing on the main thing helps communities avoid distractions from their calling as one body in Christ. Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Bias isn’t always about the big, obvious issues. Sometimes it shows up in the subtle, everyday moments—like who we compliment, who we listen to, and how we respond to change. It’s part of being human, but as leaders, it’s our calling to become aware of those biases so we can lead with greater humility and clarity. In this episode, Erin Devers, author of The Unbiased Self, shares the science behind bias, why it’s so hard to see in ourselves, and how anchoring our identity in Christ creates the freedom to lead—and live—in a much healthier and more effective way. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Bias is anything that prevents people from seeing reality accurately, not just issues of race or gender. Erin Devers describes a "cute" experiment where giving compliments—even insincerely—boosts happiness for both giver and receiver. People underestimate how enjoyable giving and receiving compliments will be, which shows a bias against social engagement. Erin Devers highlights that everyone has biases, and recognizing them is foundational to personal and spiritual growth. People have a "bias blind spot," making it much easier to see others' biases than their own. Erin Devers emphasizes Jesus’ teaching about removing the plank from one’s own eye as a reference to addressing personal bias. Self-esteem plays a major role in bias, as people spin stories to feel good about themselves, sometimes at the expense of accuracy. Attempts to feel right and to feel good about oneself are two core sources of bias in human thinking. Markus Watson connects the discussion to everyday church life, pointing out how bias impacts how pastors perceive congregants. Erin Devers explains that a secure identity as a child of God and sinner saved by grace allows Christians to pursue accuracy rather than always needing to be right. Rooting identity in something secure—whether faith-based or intrinsic human value—helps people approach disagreement with less defensiveness. Broadening perspective, such as considering larger life questions or relational values, helps reduce bias in emotionally charged situations. Erin Devers discusses the difference between fast thinking (quick, automatic judgments) and slow thinking (deliberate, reflective thought) and how both relate to bias. Habit formation and intentional practices like reducing social media can create space for deeper connection, reflection, and less biased engagement within communities. Markus Watson addresses how pastors identify which congregants will support or resist change, revealing how bias shapes leadership decisions. Erin Devers encourages church leaders to acknowledge the collective bias toward doing what is easiest when leading change, while grounding stability in God’s presence. RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS: Erin Devers, Indiana Wesleyan University Books mentioned:The Unbiased Self, by Erin Devers Related episodes:252. Navigating the Pain of Being Othered, with Jenai Auman Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Learn how small, daring experiments from the edges can spark meaningful change in your church—without sending everyone into panic mode. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Raymond Chang in Ep. 164, Building a Future-Focused Church. "We recommend that people consider additional, and smaller experiments from the edges that are likely to move the congregation in the direction that it needs to go without being too disruptive." THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Leaders move congregations forward by initiating small experiments rather than launching large, disruptive initiatives. Congregations learn and adapt best when leaders guide them through a series of modest, incremental changes. Leaders invite trust and participation when they approach change as co-learners rather than as experts. Experimenting at the margins allows churches to discover real community needs before making significant shifts. Genuine experiments help congregations clarify their direction by focusing on questions and learning rather than predetermined outcomes. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! What do you do when the tried-and-true ways of doing church just aren’t working anymore? When everything you once relied on—Sunday services, eye-catching signage, the best coffee in the foyer—still leaves your church feeling disconnected from your community? In this episode, Shannon Kiser, author of Opening Space: A Vision for Fresh Expressions of Church and Creative Mission, shares about what “fresh expressions” of church means, why the old attractional models are no longer enough, and how ministry leaders can begin to reimagine church for a spiritually curious but institutionally wary world. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Markus Watson shares statistics that reveal most American churches are plateaued or declining, and the majority of major denominations are aging. Shannon Kiser urges church leaders to rethink how they engage with a spiritually curious culture that may be wary of traditional church settings. Many people possess spiritual curiosity even if they are hesitant or unwilling to attend church gatherings. Markus Watson describes how even the physical space of a church building can feel intimidating and unfamiliar to outsiders. Shannon Kiser explains that Fresh Expressions seeks to equip leaders to start new forms of Christian community tailored to their local context. Fresh Expressions focuses on innovative gatherings—like dinner churches, hiking groups, or park meetups—rather than just worship services. Markus Watson asks Shannon Kiser to define Fresh Expressions and how they originated from creative responses to declining church attendance in the UK. Shannon Kiser describes Fresh Expressions as new forms of church that often look very different from traditional Sunday morning gatherings. Healthy churches should diversify their ministry approaches and embrace what Shannon Kiser calls a "blended ecology." Focusing solely on Sunday attendance and budgets is unlikely to reverse church decline. Markus Watson highlights the impact stories from the church’s outreach—such as coffee shops and lunch ministries—can have on the congregation’s spiritual vitality. Congregations can raise their spiritual temperature and feel more alive by engaging in mission outside their traditional gatherings. Shannon Kiser recommends listening to the community and beginning with simple, small experiments that fit the church’s context and resources. Forming Fresh Expressions requires different types of people: pioneers who connect and lead, permission givers who open doors, and supporters who help behind the scenes. RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS: Fresh Expressions website Books mentioned:Opening Space, by Shannon Kiser Related episodes:177. Exploring New Forms of Church, with Shannon Kiser 264. Building a Future-Focused church, with Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Raymond Chang 272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh Hayden Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Discover why true leadership means having the courage to make tough decisions—even when it means disappointing the people you care about most. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Rich Stearns in Ep. 105, Courageous Leadership. "Leaders have to make difficult decisions.  And difficult decisions require courage." THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Leaders cultivate courage by making difficult decisions that may disappoint their own people. Adaptive leaders accept that faithfully living out the mission often requires sacrificing personal approval. Great leaders guide people through uncomfortable transformation, not just toward easy change. Leaders strengthen their courage by surrounding themselves with friends, partners, and mentors. True leadership calls communities to transformational journeys, even when the leader personally bears the cost. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! In a post-pandemic world, what does it really mean to be a “small,” “mid-sized,” or even “very large” church? Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger explore Thom Rainer’s recommendations to recategorize church size, reflect on the unique strengths and challenges of congregations of all sizes, and examine why church health and faithfulness matter more than impressive attendance numbers. Whether you’re a pastor, church leader, or simply curious about the evolving landscape of church leadership, this episode challenges us to rethink our assumptions—and reminds us that fruitful ministry comes in every size. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this article by Thom Rainer: "The New Very Large Church." THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Church leaders reframe success by focusing on fruitfulness rather than congregation size. Pastors adapt their leadership style to match the unique needs of different-sized churches. Post-pandemic, churches redefine size categories to reflect new attendance realities. Faithful, missionally active congregations thrive regardless of their numerical growth. Discernment and subtraction become vital leadership skills when resources decrease. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Work hurt is real, and ministry leaders aren’t exempt. Whether it’s being let go, navigating toxic work environments, or simply enduring deep disappointments, our vocational pain can shape us in ways we never expected—and often never wanted. In this episode, author of When Work Hurts, shares her own journey through work hurt, explores the different ways leaders experience vocational pain, and offers practical and spiritual resources for healing and resilience.  THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Meryl Herr shares her personal story of “work hurt” and how it led her to address the topic in her work and writing.  Meryl Herr describes feeling disillusioned early in her career when her expectations for work did not align with reality, leading to discouragement and even unexpected job loss.  Work hurt occurs when people sustain physical or psychological injuries in their workplace.  Meryl Herr categorizes work hurt as stemming from toxic systems, unhealthy cultures, issues of job fit, and personal mistakes.  Work hurt can be experienced as disappointment, disillusionment, or devastation, each having different causes and emotional impacts.  Meryl Herr notes that people’s tolerance for disappointment, disillusionment, and devastation is highly individual.  Significant numbers of workers experience work hurt, including burnout, discrimination, and disengagement, as reflected in recent research and statistics.  Discrimination and harassment at work affect certain demographic groups more acutely, highlighting systemic injustice and inequity.  Meryl Herr stresses the need for individuals to acknowledge and process their work-related pain, rather than internalizing it or transmitting it to others.  If people do not transform their work pain, they risk transmitting it as cynicism, projection, or stress in personal and family relationships.  Community support, honest conversation, prayer—especially lament—and listening to God are central strategies for healing from work hurt.  Meryl Herr encourages practices of discerning God’s presence and call, likening vocational discernment to “wayfinding” that requires attention to context, one’s gifts, and God’s invitation.  Being called to a vocation or job does not mean one is exempt from pain or suffering; Meryl Herr and Markus Watson both connect this to biblical examples of hardship in the midst of calling.  Pastors play an important role by understanding and addressing the work hurt in their congregations and by providing practical, emotional, and spiritual support.  Meryl Herr recommends cultivating “everyday faithfulness,” showing up and doing the daily work set before us as a foundational way to keep moving forward through disruption, loss, and fear. RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS: Meryl Herr:Website – www.merylherr.com DePree Center for Leadership Books mentioned:When Work Hurts, by Meryl Herr Falling Upward, by Ruchard Rohr Related episodes:114. Meaningful Work, Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Drawing on the challenges of feeling marginalized and the importance of resting in God’s love, this episode explores the vital role that self-compassion plays in leadership. Tod Bolsinger shares wisdom on facing anxiety and insecurity, especially when leaders are stepping into the unknown and leaving behind their expertise. Instead of "faking it till you make it," Tod encourages authenticity, resilience, and building trust within a community. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Jenai Auman in Ep. 252: Navigating the Pain of Being “Othered”: "Sometimes I need to experience self-compassion and quell the insecurity within me so I can extend compassion and love to my neighbor." THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Leaders cultivate self compassion to address their own insecurity before extending compassion to others. Adaptive leaders acknowledge their anxiety and insecurity rather than suppressing or faking confidence. Leaders practice honesty with themselves and those they lead about the difficulties and uncertainties of new challenges. Leaders invite trustworthy people to join them in facing the unknown, creating a supportive environment. Leaders embrace authenticity and vulnerability as central to healthy and transformative leadership. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Josh Hayden, the author of Remissioning Church: A Field guide for Bringing a Congregation Back to Life, shares wisdom from his own journey—moving from church planting to leading a 158-year-old congregation—and he helps us understand the difference between revitalization and remissioning.  He also talks about the power of what he calls “creative destruction” and reflects on the hope that churches and people really can change. If you are a ministry leader wondering how to lead your church through deep transformation and discovering a renewed mission, you’ll find both encouragement and practical guidance in this conversation. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Josh Hayden explains that remissioning involves inside-out transformation of the church through discipleship for the sake of neighbors and the world. Revitalization focuses on refreshing existing programs, while remissioning addresses deeper, DNA-level transformation. Josh Hayden underscores the importance of listening first—both to the church and the neighborhood—before making plans for change. Markus Watson highlights the challenge new pastors face in established churches, including resistance, sabotage, and managing change. Remissioning leaders must exegete both their congregation and their community to identify gaps and opportunities for meaningful connection. Josh Hayden stresses that successful remissioning requires teamwork; pastors must not attempt change alone. Markus Watson reflects on the emotional challenges of change, including the shame spiral that can occur when a church confronts its shortcomings. Josh Hayden illustrates the shame spiral with an example of unnoticed “No Running in the Halls” signs that undermined stated values of hospitality. Remissioning involves inviting the congregation into a process of repentance, learning, and transformation, rather than imposing outside solutions. Josh Hayden shares how tradition-to-innovation means honoring a church’s history while translating it into practices that serve current needs. Experiments in ministry should create shared experiences that allow for evaluation, learning, and adaptation over time. Josh Hayden describes creative destruction as embracing necessary endings so new life can emerge, drawing analogy from nature and industry. Effective change involves creating feedback loops, town hall conversations, and allowing time for the congregation to process and adapt. Not all experiments or changes need to succeed; failed experiments still provide valuable lessons for ongoing transformation. RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS: Josh Hayden:Iwa Collabora website Books mentioned:Remissioning Church, by Josh Hayden Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger Related episodes:16. Canoeing the Mountains, with Tod Bolsinger 192. Leading Change Without Authority, with Roy Inzunza 264. Building a Future-Focused Church, with Kara Powell, Jake M Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking! Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger unpack the fascinating connection between the Latin roots of “prayer” and “precarious”—suggesting that it’s often in our most uncertain moments that we’re drawn into deeper dependence on God. Together, they explore how precarious situations not only shape our leadership but also form and mature our prayer lives. You’ll also hear practical wisdom on leading others in prayer through times of change and how discernment, rather than just asking God to bless our plans, is central to a healthy approach to leadership. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Jeff Hoffmeyer in Ep. 246: Have We Forgotten to Pray?: "The Latin word for prayer is the same root for ‘precarious’. So, I think when we're in a precarious situation, God's desire is that we'll be driven to dependence on prayer." THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Leaders cultivate their prayer lives in the midst of precarious situations. Leaders experience spiritual formation when they become aware of their dependence on God. Leaders guide their congregations into discernment by seeking God’s voice together. Leaders model a deep prayer life by honestly acknowledging their limitations. Leaders resist making plans independently and instead invite God to direct their path. Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.