The TeachThought Podcast

Drew Perkins talks with with author and educator Christian Moore to critically examine the "just tell them" model of instruction often championed by popular "science of learning" advocates. Drawing from his book, Teaching Meaning: What Works When Telling Isn't Enough, Moore introduces the framework of "enactivism"—the cognitive science-based perspective that meaning cannot be simply transmitted from teacher to student, but must be actively enacted through experience. This conversation challenges the reliance on scripted, atomized curricula and argues for a "Teaching With" approach that prioritizes professional judgment, relational adaptation, and the critical role of variation in student learning. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Key Takeaways & Learning Objectives The Enactivist Framework: Understand the shift from viewing students as "storage vessels" to "active inferencers" who construct meaning through mutual, relational adaptation. Defining Instructional Stances: Distinguish between "Teaching To" (agreement-based), "Exploring With" (discovery-based), and "Teaching With" (relational adaptation), and why the latter is the most effective for deep understanding. The Role of Variation: Discover why "variety gives meaning"—and how structuring lessons around key distinctions rather than isolated facts helps students make sense of complex systems. Critiquing the "Science of Learning": Explore the limitations of pre-requisite knowledge checks and rigid cognitive load strategies that can sometimes deskill teachers and reduce learning to shallow recitation. Restoring Professional Agency: Learn why experienced educators must prioritize community of practice over top-down, punitive administrative mandates to prevent the "deskilling vortex." Episode Highlights & Timecodes 00:10:02 – The Thesis of Enactivism: An introduction to Christian Moore's work and how enactivism bridges the gap between progressive discovery and traditionalist instruction. 00:13:12 – The Three Stances: Moore defines the framework of "Teaching To," "Exploring With," and "Teaching With." 00:17:01 – The Critique of "Just Tell Them": Why the "science of learning" advocacy can lead to a culture of achievement that prioritizes performance over authentic understanding. 00:36:38 – Meaning as an Enacted Process: Why teaching is a biological and relational process, not a data transmission problem. 00:45:41 – Planning for Key Distinctions: Practical strategies for lesson planning that center on distinguishing concepts rather than flat delivery of content. 01:10:45 – Premeditated vs. Relational Teaching: The danger of "atomized" lessons and why real-time, feedback-driven teaching is essential for cognitive development. 01:23:03 – Combating the "Deskilling Vortex": A critical look at how scripted curricula and high-stakes inspection cultures impact teacher retention and professional growth.

In this episode of the ThoughtStretchers Education Podcast, Drew Perkins talks with leading experts Dylan Wiliam, Jo Boaler, and Chris Harrison to explore the work and life of Paul Black and his profound impact on teaching and learning, especially the concept of assessment for learning. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Episode Overview In this special episode, host Drew Perkins brings together a panel of world-renowned educational figures, Dylan Wiliam, Jo Boaler, and Chris Harrison, to evaluate the profound, global impact of the late Paul Black on international education policy and classroom practice. Transitioning from a distinguished background in physics and crystallography to become the absolute cornerstone of modern science education and assessment framework, Paul Black fundamentally reshaped how the world defines student evaluation. This conversation bridges historical policy milestones, such as Black's masterful chairing of the 1987 Task Group on Assessment and Testing (TGAT), with modern instructional hurdles, illustrating beautifully why assessment must serve as a vehicle for authentic meaning-making, intellectual humility, and autonomous learner agency rather than a mechanical system for tracking or ranking students. Core Themes & Key Takeaways The Historical Architecture: The 1987 TGAT Reform: Commissioned by Secretary of State for Education Kenneth Baker, Paul Black chaired the Task Group on Assessment and Testing. His team proposed a revolutionary, age-independent progressive assessment scale that reframed student growth as continuous development rather than static metrics. Despite major political pushback, this foundational blueprint successfully dictated national curriculum frameworks in England for two decades. Inside the Black Box: Moving Research directly into Practitioners' Hands: Dylan Wiliam and Chris Harrison recount the deliberate, user-centric choice to look past dense, extensive academic journal articles and publish the seminal 1998 work, Inside the Black Box, as a slim, highly accessible 28-page booklet. This targeted dissemination placed actionable research directly in front of busy classroom practitioners. Furthermore, Wiliam clarifies why their historical look was a configurative review meant to map the conceptual schema of the field rather than a simple meta-analysis. Redefining Assessment for Learning (AfL): Dialogue over Spreadsheets: The panel issues a stark, cross-continental warning against institutional evaluation frameworks (heavily prevalent in the United States) that compress formative assessment into teacher-led data entries on spreadsheets every few weeks. True Assessment for Learning is an interactive, real-time diagnostic process rooted in rich classroom dialogue, extracting student misconceptions, and adjusting the immediate pedagogical path. Cultivating Learner Agency: Releasing "Explorer Mode": Formative feedback must move toward its own redundancy, systematically transitioning students out of passive compliance ("Passenger Mode") or fragile grade-chasing ("Achiever Mode") into self-regulating agents of their own intellectual development ("Explorer Mode"). The Pedagogy of Humility and Curiosity: Jo Boaler and Chris Harrison share intimate reflections on Paul Black's style as a PhD advisor and colleague. Despite his massive national stature, Black routinely deferred to doctoral students, treating them as co-investigators and displaying immense intellectual curiosity about how young minds think. Episode Timeline & Milestone Highlights Use these timestamp tokens to jump directly to key points in the panel's conversation: 00:00:11 – Introductions, cross-continental logistics, and session framing. 00:04:25 – Unpacking the historical impact: Paul Black's transition from physics and crystallography to science education policy. 00:08:16 – Dylan Wiliam outlines his multi-decade intellectual partnership with Black starting at Chelsea College. 00:10:36 – Chris Harrison details Black's post-retirement career and managing 19 international translational action research projects. 00:13:39 – Jo Boaler discusses Black's guidance on validating qualitative research data and handling academic journal rejections. 00:19:43 – The inner workings of the 1987 Task Group on Assessment and Testing (TGAT) and Kenneth Baker's national curriculum scale. 00:22:05 – Subject-specific progression models: Unpacking the "progression is harder" vs. "progression is better" friction across disciplines. 00:26:19 – The rationale behind a configurative review over traditional meta-analysis inside poorly theorized fields. 00:31:57 – Collaborative research dynamics: Working alongside teachers to let them build localized knowledge instead of imposing top-down scripts. 00:36:06 – Integrating growth mindset structures into math classrooms via open-ended, speed-independent tasks. 00:41:44 – Cultivating student self-regulation as an alternative to US data entry tracking spreadsheets. 00:47:47 – Exploring the three distinct pathways of progression: harder, better, and more independent. 00:58:01 – Debunking the mathematical efficiency myth: Reasoning and pattern discovery vs. computational speed. 01:06:02 – Long-term learning goals vs. short-term multiple-choice testing metrics in an AI-driven future. 01:10:05 – Teachers as knowledge workers: David Daniel's research on why lab findings reverse when deployed into complex classrooms. 01:15:56 – Utilizing psychometrics (Mark Wilson's framework) to discover what a student needs to learn next rather than simply to rank them.

Drew Perkins talks with James Moore, author of Explain Yourself: Master the Art of Explanation in the Age of AI, about how educators and communicators can effectively teach complex concepts. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. James, a former physics teacher and writer for the science-focused YouTube channel Veritasium, champions the core principle of "Show, Don't Just Tell". They unpack his powerful framework for clear explanation: SAD (Structure, Audience, Detail). The conversation tackles the tension between explicit instruction and inquiry, the role of cognitive load in learning, and why balancing technical accuracy with clarity is essential. Learn how starting with concrete examples (a bottom-up approach) and creating a curiosity gap can make the content click. Tune in for a masterclass on teaching, communication, and understanding in the age of AI. The discussion features James Moore, who shares his mission to help people explain complex concepts as clearly as possible. [0:05:07] The Motivation Behind Explain Yourself: James's transition from a classroom physics teacher to an online content creator required creating content that is understood the first time, leading to his obsession with clear explanation. [0:06:50] The Core Thesis: Show, Don't Tell: The most effective way to explain something is often not to tell, but to show through stories or examples that connect to biologically primary knowledge. [0:08:45] The SAD Framework: Explaining complex concepts is best approached through three lenses: Structure, Audience, and Detail. [0:16:22] Cognitive Load, Curiosity, and Schema Building: Curiosity acts as a motivator that helps ease the friction of cognitive load, with the goal of making content "click". [0:18:50] Expert vs. Learner Thinking: Experts store information top-down, but teaching should start bottom-up, using a series of examples to allow learners to infer the rule and build schema. Instructional Strategies & Audience [0:22:13] Checking for Understanding: Asking "Does that make sense?" is a poor proxy for comprehension. Use targeted application problems or specific questions instead. [0:28:18] Unpacking Structure (S): Start with a specific, concrete example to create context and an image in the learner's mind before introducing the abstract, general rule. [0:31:37] Unpacking Audience (A): This lens involves balancing technical accuracy with clarity. Use simple models, like the staircase analogy for quantum physics, that can be refined later to avoid losing the audience. [0:45:34] Unpacking Detail (D): The principle is "Less is More" to manage cognitive load. It also means atomizing complex concepts to avoid the "curse of knowledge," where experts assume their audience has already chunked the information. [0:53:28] The Narrative Structure: Using the "And, But, Therefore/So" story structure helps maintain audience attention by constantly building tension, conflict, and resolution. [0:58:20] Content Dictates Modality: The subject matter (e.g., learning a language or installing a car part) should drive the choice of teaching modality (video vs. text) rather than relying on learner preferences.

Drew Perkins talks with education journalist and author Holly Korbey to explore the complex intersection of cognitive science and progressive pedagogy. While the "Reading Wars" often dominate headlines, Drew and Holly dig deeper into the underlying tensions between explicit, knowledge-rich instruction and the desire for student-led inquiry. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The heart of this conversation focuses on bridging the gap between human cognitive architecture and the ideals of inquiry-based learning. Holly and Drew discuss the "false dichotomy" that often pits these two approaches against each other. They explore how a deep foundation of background knowledge is actually the essential fuel that makes high-level inquiry possible. Holly shares insights into how schools are successfully integrating these worlds. They discuss "engineering the discovery," where teachers use explicit instruction to build the necessary schema, then step back to allow students to engage in meaningful inquiry. This episode serves as a roadmap for moving beyond tribalism and toward an integrated model of teaching. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:04:15] Introduction to Holly Korbey – From education reporting to researching civic education. [00:10:45] The Tension Between Science and Inquiry – Why cognitive science and progressive ideals are often viewed as being at odds. [00:16:30] Knowledge as the Engine of Inquiry – How building robust long-term memory allows for more complex questioning. [00:23:15] The "Both/And" Approach – Moving past tribal camps to find a balance between guidance and agency. [00:32:05] Schema Building in Early Years – Why content-rich instruction is vital for developing critical thinkers. [00:41:40] Navigating Controversial Topics – Using cognitive tools to facilitate deep inquiry into "hard history." [00:50:55] Reimagining Professional Learning – Shifting staff discussions from "tools" to pedagogical philosophy. [01:06:40] Practical Advice for Educators – How to integrate cognitive load principles into an inquiry classroom. [01:13:20] Closing Remarks – Where to follow Holly's work.

Drew Perkins welcomes back Ted Dintersmith to discuss the urgent need to move away from an education system obsessed with standardized testing and toward one that empowers students to do real, meaningful work. In his new book, Aftermath, and documentary, Multiple Choice, Dintersmith argues that our current system is "perfectly designed" to produce results that are increasingly irrelevant in an age of AI and automation. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Ted Dintersmith.com Book: Aftermath: The Life-Changing Math That Schools Won't Teach You Film: multiplechoicefilm.com The ThoughtStretchers (then TeachThought) Podcast Ep. 115 Let's Talk About What School Could Be (2018) Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. A significant portion of this conversation focuses on Ted's critique of the traditional math "treadmill." Drawing from his new book, Ted explores the "What and How" of teaching math. He argues that the current "What"—a heavy focus on symbolic manipulation and rote procedures—is largely obsolete. Regarding the "How," Ted shares inspiring examples of teachers who have moved toward Project-Based Learning kind of instruction. He describes classrooms where math is taught through real-world applications—like analyzing local economic trends—where learning happens through trial, error, and collaborative inquiry. By centering math on student agency, Ted argues we can move from "math trauma" to empowering students to solve complex, non-routine problems. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:04:15] Introduction to Ted Dintersmith – From venture capital to a 50-state tour investigating the future of education. [00:09:30] The Flaw in the System – Why our schools are designed for a world that no longer exists. [00:15:45] The Math Treadmill – Ted breaks down why our current math curriculum is a "filter" rather than a foundation. [00:22:10] The "What" of Math – Shifting from symbolic manipulation to data literacy and quantitative reasoning. [00:28:40] The "How" of Math – Using real-world problems to teach mathematical thinking instead of rote procedures. [00:35:15] The Impact of AI – How generative AI makes the "calculational" aspect of math a commodity. [00:43:05] Defining PEAK Learning – Breaking down Purpose, Essential Skills, Agency, and Knowledge. [00:52:20] Performance-Based Assessment – Moving toward portfolios and "defense of learning" models. [01:05:30] Advice for Parents – How to advocate for a more meaningful educational experience for your children. [01:12:45] Closing Remarks – Where to find Ted's books and follow his ongoing work in school reform.

Drew Perkins talks with David Geary, a cognitive developmental and evolutionary psychologist and Curator's Professor in the Department of Psychological Sciences at the University of Missouri. They dive into the foundations of evolutionary educational psychology, exploring how our evolutionary history shapes the way we learn today and why certain types of knowledge are fundamentally more difficult to acquire than others. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review wherever you're listening. The core of the conversation centers on Geary's groundbreaking distinction between biologically primary and biologically secondary knowledge. Primary knowledge includes skills like spoken language, social navigation, and basic folk physics, which humans have evolved to acquire effortlessly and instinctively. In contrast, secondary knowledge—such as reading, writing, and advanced mathematics—is a recent cultural invention that requires explicit instruction and sustained effort because our brains are not "wired" for it by default. Drew and David discuss the implications of this framework for modern classrooms, particularly why "discovery-based" learning models often struggle with secondary knowledge. Geary explains that while children naturally "play" to develop primary skills, the acquisition of secondary knowledge necessitates a different instructional architecture that respects the limits of working memory and the necessity of direct guidance. Finally, they explore the role of motivation and interest in learning. Geary highlights that while students are naturally motivated to learn primary skills, teachers must often "engineer" interest for secondary knowledge. The episode concludes with reflections on the "curse of knowledge" for experts and how an evolutionary lens can help educators better understand the struggle their students face when encountering abstract, non-intuitive academic content. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:04:12] Introduction to David Geary – Exploring his background in developmental and evolutionary psychology. [00:08:45] Defining Biologically Primary Knowledge – The skills we are born to learn, from language to social intuition. [00:12:30] Defining Biologically Secondary Knowledge – Why reading, writing, and math are "unnatural" and require schools. [00:18:15] The Role of Play – Distinguishing between play as a primary learning mechanism and its limitations for academic subjects. [00:25:50] Working Memory and Cognitive Load – How secondary knowledge strains our evolved cognitive architecture. [00:33:10] The Problem with Discovery Learning – Why students cannot simply "instinctively" find their way to complex secondary truths. [00:41:45] Engineering Interest – Strategies for motivating students to engage with content they aren't evolutionarily predisposed to care about. [00:52:20] The "Curse of Knowledge" – Why experts struggle to remember what it's like to be a novice learner. [01:05:30] Evolutionary Perspectives on Sex Differences – A brief look at Geary's research on developmental variations. [01:14:15] Closing Remarks – Where to find more of David Geary's work and upcoming publications.

Drew Perkins welcomes Patrick Graff, Senior Fellow at the American Federation for Children, to discuss his recent research analyzing 15 years of Florida's tax-credit scholarship program. Graff presents a compelling case for why "competition effects" may be significantly more cost-effective than simply increasing per-pupil spending for improving public school outcomes. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The episode explores the "competition effect"—the phenomenon where public schools improve when they face the threat of losing students to nearby private options. Graff's research found that public school students in high-competition areas in Florida were 120 to 140 days ahead in reading compared to those in low-competition areas. Most strikingly, he estimates that the competition route was 11 times more cost-effective than achieving the same gains through pure spending increases. Drew and Patrick also navigate the nuances of school choice, including the role of micro-schools, the impact on rural communities, and the critical need for minimum academic quality and transparency. They conclude by discussing the new federal Education Freedom Tax Credit and its potential to expand educational opportunities by bypassing traditional political constraints and driving resources directly to parents. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:07] Patrick Graff's Background – From teaching 3rd grade in Tampa to researching education policy through a sociological lens. [00:10:49] Teacher Training & Alternative Certification – Insights from his work with the University of Notre Dame's ACE program. [00:20:13] The "Competition Effect" Findings – How Florida's private school options led to significant learning gains for public school students. [00:24:06] Competition vs. Spending – A cost-effectiveness comparison showing competition far outperforming traditional budget increases. [00:28:11] Reallocating Resources – How the "voucher threat" encourages public school principals to prioritize instructional quality. [00:33:31] The Rise of Micro-Schools – How niche, small-scale schools attract both conservative and progressive educators. [00:41:35] The Limitations of High Spending – Why the $190 billion ESSER (pandemic) funding showed modest returns on academic instruction. [01:01:26] Schools and Civil Society – The historical and current role of private schools in community building and immigrant integration. [01:03:45] Impact on Rural Areas – Debunking myths about school choice "starving" rural schools and exploring new service-sharing models. [01:08:38] Ensuring Academic Quality – The importance of nationally norm-referenced testing and parent-facing transparency. [01:14:29] The Education Freedom Tax Credit – How the new federal tax credit could unlock billions for both private and public school services.

Drew Perkins talks with Valentina Devid to explore why the term "formative assessment" often fails in practice and how shifting the focus to Formative Action can lead to more sustainable, durable learning. Valentina shares her journey from a history teacher seeking "intellectual nourishment" to a professional development expert specializing in evidence-informed instructional coaching. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The conversation highlights a critical "lethal mutation" in education: teachers becoming too tool-focused (e.g., using mini-whiteboards) without a clear pedagogical goal. Valentina introduces her company's Five-Step Short Loop Model—Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify—designed to help teachers make intentional, real-time decisions based on student thinking. A major focus of the discussion is the Verify (Mirror Question) step, which Valentina describes as a "humbling experience" that ensures the teacher's corrective action actually worked before moving on. Drew and Valentina also tackle the challenge of sustainability in professional development, discussing how to support school leaders in making informed, durable implementation plans rather than relying on one-off keynotes. Finally, they explore the intersection of Inquiry-Based Learning and cognitive science, breaking down the "false dichotomy" between explicit instruction and student-led questioning. Valentina argues that while retrieval practice is essential for fluency, inquiry is a vital tool for sense-making and creating the retrieval cues necessary for long-term, durable knowledge. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:24] Valentina's Journey – From a "question-filled" history teacher to seeking rigor in teacher preparation. [00:13:49] Sustainable School Change – The mission of her PD company to move beyond one-off training days. [00:19:39] Assessment vs. Action – Why rebranding to "Formative Action" helps teachers focus on pedagogy rather than just tools. [00:31:22] The Five-Step Short Loop Model – A walkthrough of the Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify process. [00:38:08] The Power of the "Verify" Step – Closing the loop with mirror questions to ensure learning stuck. [00:44:48] The Three Strategies – Integrating the Short Loop, Sense for Quality (modeling), and Feedback Processes. [00:57:21] Training Teacher Perception – How to use "Pedagogical Road Maps" to anticipate student pitfalls. [01:00:34] The Implementation Gap – Why teachers sometimes grasp concepts but struggle with classroom techniques. [01:03:45] Inquiry as a Formative Tool – Using Project Zero Thinking Routines to make thinking visible for action. [01:12:14] Defining Durable Learning – Ensuring knowledge remains in long-term memory through intentional curriculum design. [01:18:00] The Craft of Teaching – Discerning when to provide less guidance to maximize "hard thinking".

Drew Perkins talks with Brendan Lee, a primary school teacher, host of the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast, and advocate for evidence-informed pedagogy. Brendan shares his transition from an initial belief in unguided project-based learning to a more structured approach rooted in the Science of Reading and the instructional hierarchy. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Brendan explains the instructional hierarchy—a framework that identifies where a student sits on the continuum from novice to expert. He emphasizes that when students are in the "acquisition stage" (or frustration stage), they require high levels of scaffolding and explicit instruction. Without this foundation, students often become disengaged because they lack the prerequisite skills to tackle complex tasks. A central theme of the conversation is the critical role of fluency. Brendan argues that a lack of fluency in "tool skills"—like basic math facts or decoding—acts like "climbing a mountain with a bag of bricks on your back". By implementing just five minutes of daily, timed fluency practice, teachers can free up cognitive space for students to engage in higher-order thinking and discovery. Finally, Drew and Brendan discuss the "curse of knowledge" and why many inquiry-based approaches fail when they lack intentional design. They explore how "engineering the aha moment" requires a deep understanding of what students already know and the strategic fading of support as accuracy increases. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:15] Brendan's Background – From high school PE teacher and aspiring rugby pro to primary school educator. [00:12:06] The Shift in Thinking – Moving from project-based learning to recognizing the need for foundational knowledge in young learners. [00:17:29] Discovering the Science of Reading – Key resources and mentors that transformed Brendan's approach to literacy. [00:23:58] The Instructional Hierarchy – Breaking down the framework of acquisition, fluency, generalization, and adaptation. [00:33:32] Working Memory and Subskills – Why students struggle with multi-step problems when they lack fluency in basic components. [00:46:54] Tool, Component, and Composite Skills – Defining the building blocks of mastery. [01:01:52] Inquiry Before Explicit Instruction – Drew discusses using "framing questions" to create a "need to know". [01:06:41] The Curse of Knowledge – Why teachers struggle to adopt a novice perspective when designing tasks. [01:11:50] Behavior Analysis and Scaffolding – The importance of "contingency reduction" and fading prompts based on student accuracy. [01:16:50] Final Advice – Focus on small, incremental improvements rather than mastering everything at once.

Drew Perkins speaks with John Sweller, Emeritus Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of New South Wales, and Oliver Caviglioli, information designer and former special school principal, about the foundations and future of Cognitive Load Theory (CLT). As one of the most influential frameworks in modern education, CLT provides a scientific roadmap for understanding how human cognitive architecture dictates the way we should—and shouldn't—teach. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review wherever you're listening. The conversation begins with Sweller's essential distinction between biologically primary knowledge (skills like speech that we evolve to acquire naturally) and biologically secondary knowledge (academic subjects like reading and math that require explicit instruction). Sweller argues that because schools primarily deal with secondary knowledge, the limitations of working memory must be the starting point for any instructional design. A major theme of the episode is the concept of element interactivity. Sweller clarifies a common point of contention: while inquiry-based learning can be acceptable for low-complexity information, it is "catastrophic" for high-element interactivity content where working memory is easily overwhelmed. The guests also explore the "computational advantage" of diagrams, explaining how visual models can offload cognitive strain and make complex syntax more accessible to learners. Finally, the group discusses the "knowledge-rich" foundation required for higher-order thinking. Contrary to the idea that critical thinking is a generic skill to be practiced in a vacuum, Sweller and Caviglioli emphasize that creativity and analysis are only possible when a deep knowledge base is firmly established in long-term memory. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:03:26] Introduction to Human Cognitive Architecture – Why understanding how we learn is the necessary foundation for Cognitive Load Theory. [00:08:48] Primary vs. Secondary Knowledge – Defining why some skills are effortless while academic knowledge requires explicit teaching. [00:14:05] The Limits of Working Memory – Examining the "seven-item" rule and the 18-second duration of novel information. [00:17:44] The Power of Long-Term Memory – How stored knowledge transforms working memory from limited to virtually infinite. [00:32:56] Writing as External Symbolic Storage – Oliver Caviglioli on how writing allowed humanity to conquer transient information. [00:36:56] The Worked Example Effect – Why studying a solution is often more effective than solving the problem yourself. [00:43:33] The Transient Information Effect – The danger of "moving" information in technology and sports coaching. [00:51:46] Element Interactivity – The crucial distinction between low and high complexity that dictates teaching methods. [00:59:10] The Computational Advantage of Diagrams – Why diagrams are more than just "decorative" and how they reduce cognitive load. [01:08:04] Inquiry vs. Explicit Instruction – Sweller's warning on starting with inquiry for high-element interactivity tasks. [01:10:50] Knowledge as the Base for Critical Thinking

Drew Perkins talks with Brian Lamb, founder of Swivl, about the "Paradox of Edtech" and how modern digital interfaces are changing the way we learn. They discuss the shift from being "data-driven" to "data-informed," the importance of "decentering" for perspective-taking, and how AI can serve as a reflective thought partner for teachers rather than a replacement for human-led instruction. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Episode Overview: Brian Lamb and Drew Perkins explore why traditional edtech often creates a "gamified" version of reality that limits student growth. Brian explains how Swivl is pivoting toward tools that prioritize human reflection over screen time. They dive into the necessity of "decentering"—the cognitive ability to step outside one's own perspective—and how AI can be used to develop "uncomputable intelligence." The conversation also addresses the challenges of teacher preparation and how AI-supported feedback can help early-career teachers navigate the "messy reality" of the classroom. Timestamped Episode Timeline: [00:04:15] Brian's Background and the Founding of Swivl. [00:10:32] The Paradox of Edtech: Why more tech doesn't always equal more learning. [00:18:45] Gamification vs. Reality: The danger of reducing learning to "winning" a game. [00:25:12] Decentering: Why perspective-taking is a prerequisite for enlightenment. [00:32:50] Data-Driven vs. Data-Informed: Moving past rigid metrics in education. [00:41:05] Uncomputable Intelligence: The human skills AI cannot replicate. [00:52:18] Scaling Reflection: How Swivl's M2 tool supports teacher development. [00:58:40] Final Thoughts: The future of teacher-led, inquiry-based instruction.

Drew Perkins welcomes Emily Waugh and Gabriela Delgado de Fina, both Assistant Heads of School for the A+ World Academy. They discuss the academy's unique educational model: a 10-month voyage for 72 students aboard the Sorlandet, a fully rigged ship built in 1927. The conversation explores the challenges and rewards of a "school at sea," where academics, communal living, and maritime training converge. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Emily and Gabriela detail the academy's core philosophy and five goals for global leadership, which integrates academics with global studies, communal living, maritime training, and reflective learning. They share how students are required to participate in maritime watches, cleaning, and galley duties, fostering a deep sense of responsibility and grit. A mandatory course, "Self Systems and Society," serves as the anchor for these experiences, providing a space for students to reflect on conflict resolution and the unique challenges of sharing a living space with 72 peers. The discussion dives into the academy's current transition toward a more Project-Based Learning (PBL) curriculum. Gabriela and Emily candidly discuss the hurdles of implementing inquiry-based research, such as "Port Quests," in an environment with limited internet and library resources. They highlight the ongoing internal debate about balancing traditional knowledge acquisition with progressive skill development, illustrating what Drew calls a "knowledge-rich inquiry" model. Finally, they touch upon the essential nature of memorization in maritime life—where knowing the names and functions of hundreds of lines is a matter of safety—and the rigorous admissions process that seeks out curious students who are ready for the sacrifice and adventure of life at sea. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:03:43] Introductions and Roles – Emily and Gabriela share their journeys from teaching on the ship to their current land-based leadership roles. [00:08:02] Diverse Educational Backgrounds – A look at the progressive and traditional schooling experiences that shaped the guests' pedagogical perspectives. [00:11:39] The "My Five" Philosophy – Breaking down the five pillars of global leadership at A+ World Academy. [00:13:56] Life on the Sorlandet – Logistics of the 10-month voyage, the "top of the eight" Atlantic loop, and the requirement for every student to help operate the ship. [00:18:32] Connectivity and Crew Rotations – Managing limited internet access and the recent shift to rotating academic teams for sustainability. [00:21:43] Shifting to Project-Based Learning – Why the academy is moving away from traditional AP structures toward more integrated port-based projects. [00:28:37] The Knowledge vs. Skills Debate – Navigating the balance between progressive education and the need for content mastery. [00:38:15] Measuring Success Beyond Academics – The difficulty of quantifying qualitative growth in areas like communal living and resilience. [00:48:15] The Power of Functional Memorization – Why students must memorize maritime terms and how the "need to know" creates deep learning. [00:54:30] Student Profile and Motivation – What the academy looks for in applicants and why students voluntarily give up their phones.

Drew Perkins talks with investigative reporter Chris Papst about his book, Failure Factory: How Baltimore City Public Schools Deprive Taxpayers and Students of a Future . Papst, a reporter for Project Baltimore, shares his deep-dive into why one of the most funded school systems in America remains one of the lowest performing . From systemic grade manipulation to the misuse of school funds, this conversation explores the "end stages" of a failing public education system and serves as a critical warning for the rest of the country . Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Video version available at: https://youtu.be/LO5ZHmYJzEA Papst details the findings of his multi-year investigation, which uncovered "the 50% rule"—a policy preventing students from receiving grades below 50%, regardless of attendance or performance—and instances where principals directly ordered teachers to change failing grades to passing. He argues that the focus has shifted from educating children to acquiring funding and growing the power of the school system. The discussion also touches on the role of teachers' unions, the transition of teaching from a "profession to a job," and the emergence of "diploma mills" that exploit old state laws. Despite the systemic issues, Papst highlights "shining examples" like Cecil Elementary, where leadership has achieved high proficiency rates despite facing the same challenges as neighboring schools. Finally, the conversation looks at the national implications of these findings and the critical need for accountability in public education. Papst emphasizes that while the situation is dire, it is correctable through transparency and a refocus on student learning rather than adult-centered bureaucracy. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:05:37] Introducing Chris Papst – Investigative reporter for Project Baltimore and author of Failure Factory. [00:07:34] The "Failure Factory" Premise – Why Baltimore City Schools are highly funded but chronically low-performing. [00:10:37] Systemic Grade Inflation – Examining policies that allow students to graduate without basic literacy or attendance. [00:14:17] The 50% Rule – How automatic minimum grades mask educational failure and drive "social promotion." [00:18:44] Grade Changing as Fraud – A look at internal investigations where principals ordered mass grade changes. [00:23:03] Obstruction and Legal Battles – The story of suing the school system for public records and the judge's "willful violation" ruling. [00:28:27] Misuse of Public Funds – $30,000 on basketball tickets and other examples of administrative financial abuse. [00:31:55] Unions and the Professional Shift – Dr. Alvin Hathaway's perspective on when teaching became an "assembly-line job." [00:37:07] Examples of Success – Profiling Cecil Elementary and why successful models are rarely replicated. [00:40:32] Diploma Mills & State Standards – How "church-exempt" schools and lowered graduation requirements are devaluing diplomas. [00:46:54] Federal Grant Mismanagement – The case of Northwood Community Academy and the lack of federal oversight. [00:51:24] National Reaction – How the reporting went viral and reached the highest levels of government. [00:54:38] Closing Remarks – Where to find the book and how to get involved in local school accountability. Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review wherever you're listening.

Drew Perkins welcomes Carole Geneix, Director of Teaching and Learning at Washington International School, to the podcast to discuss the evolving landscape of Artificial Intelligence in education. As schools grapple with the "AI revolution," Geneix argues that instead of fearing these tools, educators must integrate them into content-rich, inquiry-based frameworks to deepen student thinking. Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email us at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Carole highlights that the "AI fear" often stems from a misunderstanding of what these tools do. Drawing from her extensive background in the International Baccalaureate (IB) and Project Zero thinking routines, she explains that AI shouldn't be viewed as a way to bypass thinking, but as a "material" and "process" for students to interact with. By shifting the focus from the final product to the cognitive journey, teachers can ensure that inquiry remains at the heart of the classroom. The conversation dives into the practicalities of implementation, from the nuances of "See, Think, Wonder" routines to the necessity of teaching students how to prompt and critique AI outputs. They also discuss the global differences in education systems, comparing the centralized French model to the localized, inquiry-driven approach of international schools, and why a "knowledge-rich" curriculum is the essential foundation for effective AI use. Finally, they explore the shifting nature of assessment. Carole shares how schools can move away from traditional grading toward "reflection boxes" and process-oriented evaluations that prioritize human agency, ethics, and critical analysis in a world where information is increasingly automated. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:00] Introduction of Carole Geneix – Director of Teaching and Learning at Washington International School and global education expert. [08:15] Global Education Perspectives – Comparing French, Korean, and U.S. educational philosophies and the role of inquiry. [14:30] Defining Inquiry-Based Learning – Why inquiry is a mindset, not just a set of activities, and its roots in the IB framework. [19:45] Project Zero Thinking Routines – How routines like "See, Think, Wonder" foster equity and give every student a voice. [25:50] The "AI Roadmap" for Schools – Using the Map of Understanding to determine where AI fits into the learning process. [33:10] AI as Artifact, Process, and Material – Reconceptualizing AI as a tool for reflection and creation rather than just an answer-generator. [41:15] Policy and Implementation – Why banning AI is a mistake and how to use tools like Flint AI for safe, monitored student engagement. [52:40] The Future of Assessment – Shifting from "what you know" to "how you think" in the age of generative AI. [01:05:10] Professional Development – The long-term commitment required to shift school culture toward inquiry-driven AI integration. [01:14:00] Closing Remarks – Where to find Carole's work and stay updated on AI in pedagogy.

Drew Perkins welcomes education writer and author Natalie Wexler to the podcast to discuss her latest work and the evolving conversation around explicit instruction and the "Science of Reading." While the movement has successfully brought phonics to the forefront, Wexler argues that too narrow of a focus ignores the lessons of the Science of Learning. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Wexler notes that the "Science of Reading" is often misunderstood as being synonymous with phonics. While foundational skills are non-negotiable, she explains that the "Mississippi Miracle" and other literacy success stories are incomplete without a focus on building background knowledge. The conversation dives into the biological and cognitive necessity of elaboration, the process of connecting new information to what a student already knows, as the primary engine for long-term retention and comprehension. A significant portion of the discussion centers on Cognitive Load Theory and why it is frequently missing from US teacher-prep programs compared to those in England and Australia. Wexler shares her observations from the UK's Michaela Community School, highlighting how explicit instruction and a knowledge-rich curriculum can narrow the achievement gap. Finally, they explore the role of writing as a lever for learning. Wexler argues that writing is the most difficult thing we ask students to do, but when structured correctly (as seen in The Writing Revolution), it becomes a powerful tool for elaboration that turns surface-level facts into deep, transferable knowledge. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:00] Introduction of Natalie Wexler – Author of The Knowledge Gap and advocate for knowledge-rich curricula. [04:12] Defining the Science of Reading – Moving beyond the narrow focus on phonics to include comprehension and background knowledge. [07:47] The Power of Elaboration – Why connecting new info to prior knowledge is the "missing piece" in many literacy programs. [15:30] Cognitive Load Theory – How understanding the brain's "bandwidth" should change the way we teach reading and writing. [21:54] Research Gaps in Education – Why math and decoding are easier to study than the "messy" process of building knowledge in history or science. [33:10] The UK Perspective – Observations on explicit instruction and the "traditional vs. progressive" debate in England and Australia. [42:15] Writing as a Learning Tool – Using sentence-level strategies to help students process complex content. [50:18] The "Mississippi Miracle" – Analyzing what actually worked in Mississippi's literacy gains and what still needs to improve. [56:40] Closing Remarks – Where to find Natalie's work and upcoming projects.

Drew Perkins welcomes neuroscientist and acclaimed author Jared Cooney Horvath to dissect his new book, The Digital Delusion, which provides a rigorous, evidence-based critique of edtech. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Horvath doesn't mince words, arguing that the majority of student-facing, internet-connected devices should be removed from schools. He reveals that over 60 years of consistent data supports his claim that the integration of digital tools is fundamentally detrimental to effective learning. This isn't a Luddite's complaint; it's a detailed exploration of the Neuroscience of Learning. The harm is explained through three primary biological mechanisms, which Horvath asserts are unfixable with software. First, screens train students to multitask, leading to a constant, detrimental battle for attention in a learning environment. Second, the use of devices inhibits the essential human-to-human interaction necessary for empathetic synchrony—the mirroring and mimicking critical for deep cognitive and social development. Finally, we discuss the profound problem of Transfer of Learning. Horvath explains that by learning skills in an "easy" digital context, the ability to transfer that knowledge to a more complex, real-life (analog) task is significantly diminished, making the learning "slower, worse, and less deep." The data suggests tech only works in highly narrow contexts, primarily for surface-level "drill and kill" facts or basic remediation, often through intelligent tutors. The conversation then shifts to the persistent educational conflicts, notably the ongoing tension between Explicit Instruction vs Inquiry and Project-Based Learning (PBL). Horvath connects the rigidity of entrenched positions to a "sunk cost" phenomenon, where individuals find it too "costly" to change their public stance, even when facing opposing evidence. We delve into the complexities of teaching, noting that both traditional and progressive approaches are valid at different points in a student's journey, but both are fundamentally flawed when they adhere rigidly to a single philosophy. Furthermore, we explore the nature of Critical Thinking Skills and creativity. Horvath clarifies that while the mechanism for critical thinking is innate across all ages, its output is heavily constrained by the individual's available domain-specific knowledge. The science of learning, he argues, has nothing to say about specific pedagogy (such as direct instruction versus exploratory learning); it only describes the biological constraints of how the brain learns. Therefore, neuroscience should serve as a powerful tool to inform and improve any existing pedagogical approach, not dictate a single one. Horvath offers a vision for the ideal classroom, suggesting elementary spaces should be "basically outdoor," focused on play and minimal tech. For older students, he advocates for a high level of control, confining computer use to specialized lab settings—much like woodshop or physical education. This perspective provides an essential counter-narrative for any K-12 educator or administrator struggling to balance modern tools with effective, long-term student success. To continue exploring innovative, evidence-based strategies, subscribe to the ThoughtStretchers Podcast on your favorite podcast player! Timestamped Episode Timeline Time Segment/Topic [00:00] Introduction of Jared Cooney Horvath – Teacher-turned-neuroscientist, focus on "human learning" and applying neuroscience to educational practices. [01:28] Jared's Educational Background and Views on Pedagogy – Describing his K-12 experience as a "mishmash" that didn't adhere rigidly to "traditional" or "progressive" labels. [03:45] The Digital Delusion Book & EdTech Critique – Introducing the book and its core argument: edtech fundamentally harms learning, advocating for reducing/eliminating non-essential computer use in classrooms. [07:18] EdTech and Learning Outcomes/The Swedish Example – Advocating for removing student-facing, internet-connected devices; citing Sweden's ban on general tech use in schools (confining computers to a lab). [08:09] Exceptions for Technology Use – Tech only works effectively in narrow contexts: self-adaptive "intelligent tutors" for surface-level (drill and kill) learning and remediation. [09:46] Mechanisms of EdTech Harm (Biological) – Outlining the three primary ways screens harm learning: Attention, Empathetic Synchrony, and Transfer. [12:29] Transfer and Complexity in Learning – Discussion on how learning in an easy digital context makes skill transfer to a harder, real-life analog context almost impossible. [15:54] AI, Pedagogy, and Creating Learning Tools – Drew's example of using AI for quizzes; Jared's counter that learning is "slower, worse, and less deep" than if the student created the tools themselves. [18:07] The Ideal Classroom – Jared's vision for elementary (outdoor, play-focused, minimal tech) and middle/high school (human-element focus, highly controlled tech use in a lab). [20:17] Critical Thinking and Metacognition – Discussion on the definition of critical thinking, with Jared suggesting metacognition is a more accurate term for the process. [23:02] The Role of Knowledge in Critical Thinking – The mechanism is universal, but the outcome of critical thinking without knowledge is "very very narrow or pointless." [27:43] Creativity and Questioning – Defining creativity as "rearranging of your current memory structures." The role of knowledge and safety/context in the ability to ask good questions. [35:47] Tension Between Traditional and Progressive Education – Observing the acute conflict in Australia/UK; asserting both approaches are correct at different points but wrong when they are too rigid. [40:34] Science of Learning and Pedagogy – Stressing that the science of learning only concerns biological mechanisms and should inform teaching, not dictate a specific pedagogy. [43:08] AI Model Training and Pedagogical Parallels – Drew's question on parallels between AI's "symbolism" vs. "connectivism" and educational philosophies. [44:15] Critique of AI and Cognitive Models – Jared's view that AI conceptualization has mistakenly influenced brain understanding and that current AI models may be at a peak without a new theoretical framework. [46:02] Book and Contact Information – Sharing website (www.lmegglobal.net), new book (The Digital Delusion), and YouTube channel. [46:47] Closing Remarks – Final thoughts on recognizing the "gray zone" in complex educational issues.

In this episode of the ThoughtStretchers podcast, host Drew Perkins talks with Dr. Barbara Oakley, distinguished professor of engineering and co-instructor of the celebrated Learning How to Learn course, to discuss her critical opinion piece: Censorship Hurts Our Brains: Why Neuroscience Confirms the Importance of Free Speech. They dive deep into the neural mechanisms behind free expression, the challenges facing K-12 education, and the dangers of sacrificing liberty for perceived order. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode + Video Podcast Show Notes & Main Discussion Points: Neuroscience and Free Speech: Dr. Oakley explains that exposure to differing viewpoints is essential for cognitive flexibility and how emotional upset literally impedes rational thought when we engage with challenging ideas. The 'Cult of Safety': We examine how the modern pursuit of "safe spaces" can ironically lead to a heightened acceptance of hostility toward people with different political views. K-12 Education & Free Speech: We explore the difficulty of promoting civic thought in K-12, noting the tension between academic freedom and the need for interventions to overcome ineffective educational practices. Critique of Constructivism: Dr. Oakley argues that pure constructivism in education is "completely opposed... to neuroscience," and suggests a balanced "knowledge-rich inquiry" model, guided by Socratic questioning, as a more effective path to true learning. Order vs. Liberty: Finally, we discuss how a perceived loss of public safety and order can make a population more willing to compromise essential liberties, including free speech. Time-Stamped Highlights: The Neuroscience of Free Speech (00:07:01): Dr. Oakley explains how engaging with opposing viewpoints—especially through her free Massive Open Online Course (MOOC) on the neurocognitive perspective of free speech—is vital for building cognitive flexibility. The Cult of Safety (00:20:17): Barbara Oakley discusses the "cult of safety" and how the swift transition from the pursuit of safe spaces to the acceptance of hostility toward people with differing political beliefs is a worrying trend. Emotional Upset vs. Rational Thought (00:23:15): A key takeaway from the neuroscience perspective is that emotional upset makes rational, conscientious engagement with an upsetting topic extremely difficult. The best approach is to manage emotions and seek to understand why people hold their beliefs. The Dilemma of K-12 Civic Education (00:10:59): Drew Perkins highlights the struggle to promote civic thought and enlightenment tradition principles in schools, noting that the lack of connection to test scores often pushes these initiatives aside. Government Intervention & 'Paradigm Cartels' (00:13:37): They discuss the tension between academic freedom and the occasional necessity of legislative intervention to overcome entrenched, ineffective beliefs in education, citing the "reading wars" and the mandate of phonics instruction as an example. The Dangers of Anti-Liberal Movements (00:30:52): Drew Perkins explores the growing "post-liberal and/or anti-liberal" movements on both the political right and left, expressing concern that these forces are dangerously pushing against the fundamental issue of free speech. Constructivism vs. Neuroscience (00:39:41): Dr. Oakley argues that the pervasive influence of pure constructivism in K-12 is "completely opposed... to neuroscience," citing negative learning outcomes in places like New Zealand, where a student-centered approach has been extensively applied. The Power of Knowledge-Rich Inquiry (00:45:29): They align on a knowledge-rich inquiry model, where a teacher uses Socratic questioning to narrow the "potential solution space," leading the student to the final 'aha' moment and strengthening the neural connection, which is a key part of effective teaching. Loss of Order and Compromising Liberty (00:38:40): The conversation concludes by linking the loss of public order and stability to a population's increased willingness to sacrifice liberties, like free speech, in exchange for a feeling of safety and for the metaphorical "trains to run on time."

Drew Perkins talks with Gary Shiffman and Jon Bassett about 4QM Teaching and their new curriculum. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Lauren Brown, Jonathan Dallimore, and Aaron Aastor about the role of facts and critical thinking in teaching history. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins and guest co-host, Melinda Karshner, talk with Timothy Shanahan about his new book, Leveled Reading, Leveled Lives, How Students' Reading Achievement Has Been Held Back and What We Can Do About It. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode