Every single person needs secure relationships. While this is true for everyone, finding it is not always the simplest process—and here is where extended family comes in. Tracy McMillan, a television writer, relationship expert, and author joins the show to discuss how relationship problems almost always have roots in the family.
Tracy’s own show called “Family or Fiance” fosters the healing of relationships by addressing generational trauma. She finds that partners in relationship come out of the show feeling liberated when they experience breakthroughs with their families.
Tracy is an accomplished author whose works include Mad Men, Good Girls Revolt, Marvel’s Runaways, and United States of Tara. She has written three books including a relationship book called Why You’re Not Married… Yet and a memoir called I Love You and I’m Leaving You Anyway.
In this Episode
03:47 Introduction to Tracy and her unique voice as a relationship expert
12:33 Spirituality helps create secure attachment. This is a human need regardless of sex or gender.
14:07 Relationships as needs: Now less about survival and more about self-actualization.
19:25 Healing a relationship is healing generational trauma. Breakthroughs can happen in an instant and all it takes is honesty to oneself.
25:15 Creating visibility and normalizing therapy is the main goal of Family or Fiance. It helps change the narrative in communities that do not believe in therapy.
29:10 Families find unity and common ground with their experience on Family or Fiance.
32:49 How to connect with Tracy
Your Check List of Actions to Take
In the moment you decide that it is time to heal, you create a safe haven that fosters the actualization of both partners in relationship.
Relationship problems may be rooted in the family. Healing generational trauma is a powerful way of repairing the frays of a relationship.
It is definitely possible to change a belief system that is no longer in agreement with new realizations.
As parents, it’s healthy to be accountable with your deficits in the family. Doing so would prevent passing relationship struggles to your children.
When conflict arises between couples and families, opt to find a common ground by setting a positive goal together.
Mentioned
I Love You and I’m Leaving You Anyway: A Memoir
Why You’re Not Married . . . Yet: The Straight Talk You Need to Get the Relationship You Deserve
Tracy McMillan Facebook
Tracy McMillan Twitter
Tracy McMillan Instagram
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About Today’s Show
Tracy, thank you for joining us today.
Thanks for having me. It’s great to be here.
Yes, and I am just excited because this is a different episode than I normally do. And you are reaching people in so many ways, whether or not it’s in your screenwriting, your books, your articles, and shows that you are doing. You have been offering guidance and coaching in the way of relationships and couples. I’m curious for people that perhaps don’t know you super well or are just now getting a chance to meet you; what got you interested in supporting people in this way?
Well, I would say it just was a very natural evolution from me working on my own relationship issues. And then I would naturally be involved in these conversations with other women, usually, but other men also about their relationships. Then I would be sharing the things I’m learning. So, I tend to sort of study. When I first had a baby, I basically started studying all about attachment. And then, any discussion of attachment naturally leads you to relationships because, in our adult relationships, we form attachments, much the same way as a parent forms an attachment to a baby. And so then, I just started learning about so many aspects of family systems. You name it. I just went in on this topic, and then I would just start sharing it with whoever I was talking to. Usually people at work.
I mean, I always joked that it could be in line at Target. I would overhear somebody. I’m like, “Oh, you know, that’s like an attachment thing.” What Yang said is that your partner is you as a man. And you are him as a woman. This became a conversation that I was constantly having. And the next thing I knew, one thing led to another, and I wrote this viral piece. It went in the Huffington Post. It became the most read for two years straight. That led to a book. And that led to a TV show that led to Oprah Super Soul Sunday. And that led to the show I’m working on now that I host called Family or Fiancé. So, it’s just been a natural thing of like, you know, do what you love. And next thing, you know, you’ll have a TV show about it.
Yes! Well, thank you for sharing that because it is so important where we’re coming from and our voice. I share a lot of resonance in my own personal story that my relationship struggles and what I was learning, and how it was applying it and recognizing. People don’t typically have access to this information unless they’re self-studying or really, you know, deep dive themselves on how important and critical it is.
But they’re super interested if you’re sitting next to them at a dinner party. You start talking about this, and they’re like, “What?” and they want more.
Exactly. I love that you brought up attachment. That’s something that I referenced heavily in my work, and I just feel like it’s so important for the dynamics and what’s at play. There’s something that people seem to really appreciate your creativity, your direct style, and your humor, so it sounds like you have a particular voice that you bring to this conversation that I know a lot of people get a lot of value out of.
Yeah. I mean, I feel like I’ve naturally always been sort of plain-spoken. I don’t know. I have a moon in Sagittarius. Is that what it is? But whatever the case, I have a knack for saying things in a way that people understand. I also feel like I’m super non-judgmental. I’ve made a million mistakes in relationships, and people know that I’m not judging them because I’ve done all the same things.
I think a lot of people in the relationship experts’ space are people who got married once, and they’ve been that way for 35 years. I remember one time I did Dr. Phil’s podcast, and I’m like, I mean, I respect your marriage achievement, Dr. Phil, but you don’t know anything about my experience. You wouldn’t have any idea what it’s like out there.
No kidding.
So I just feel like people also get that I am more like them. I have all the same problems. Everyone else has, basically.
Yeah. And you’re coming from real direct experience and what a lot of people are confronting in modern-day and in relationships. I do my best to practice everything that I talked about.
Me too.
And yes, I am in a relationship. We have been together for a while, and it doesn’t take away my knees shaking and the trembling that I feel when I’m confronted with having to take a huge risk. It’s intense work. And then if you add all the other stuff that we’re contending with around finding a partner, and like your show with the family and the in-laws, and all of that, there’s so many things at play. So I think giving guidance and everybody gravitates towards different voices, and I love what you’re bringing.
Thank you.
Yes. As you said on your website and just your background, you had a dramatic upbringing. I think just to be able to be an example, right, that if we had some circumstances that have been challenging, especially in the way of relationship and attachment, that we can earn security, that we can get to a place of health. Are you open to speaking about any of that?
Oh, sure. I mean, I was a foster child. I was given up at a very young age. I was in many, many homes. My dad was in prison. My mother was a prostitute. I come from a maximum amount of childhood trauma. I also had some incredible breaks. I lived for four and a half years with a Lutheran minister, his wife, and their five kids. I’m still close to that family. They showed me what secure attachment looks like and feels like. And even though I left that home when I was almost nine, I took that experience with me. I also am lucky that I’m from Minneapolis, so I got an excellent education. There were a lot of breaks for me.
Resilience, yes.
Yeah. And then I also have just a certain kind of personality, where it just didn’t grind me all the way down somehow. I don’t know how, but I feel very blessed. I think I’ve said this in my TED Talk, which is, you know, where your biggest challenges are, that’s where you have the most to give.
“(…) Where your biggest challenges are, that’s where you have the most to give. I don’t think these things happen to drag me down. I think they happen because I’m here to be of service to other people.”
You don’t even have to have as dramatic a childhood as mine to have plenty of struggles in the relationship area. I just think we’re all out here working on resolving childhood things. It doesn’t have to be full trauma at my level, but everybody has unresolved things they are working through in their present-day relationships. That’s the nature of relationships. And so, I’m just here to help people identify what some of those things are and start to work through them in a way that allows them to have more choices in their current relationships.
Absolutely, there’s such importance around being able to name this, make it explicit and transparent. Because I think when we are hiding or feel really alone or feel shame around it, it’s losing–. I mean, it’s not a losing battle, but it can feel like a losing battle that we’re kind of grappling in the dark and grasping and don’t have a lot of guidance. So, I love that this is just becoming more accessible.
I want to say, Tracy, when you were sharing about the family that you lived with, I got chills of just like having an imprint or having an experience of that secure bonding and that relationship and how healing it can be.
Oh, yeah. I mean, I’m still close to my family. There were many years in there that I wasn’t, but now I am again, and it’s just so amazing. They truly, truly saved my life. Yeah.
Beautiful.
Yeah. It is.
I know you also reference spirituality. I’m curious. Has that been involved in your development of secure attachment or attachment in general?
There’s no question that having a sense of spirituality has gotten me through many of the challenges in my life. I think what I’ve come to understand is that relationships, you know, yes, they’re here for us to mate and have children, but really, they are our spiritual path. They are the place where many of us, most of us even, practice spiritual principles. And when you can bring that to your relationship, your relationship kind of exists on a whole other level. So, yeah, the spiritual part is a very big deal.
I think in the olden days, marriage was about property. It was political. Now, marriage or relationships are about self-actualizing. Nobody needs a partner to get through the hard winter anymore. Do you know what I mean? Or to work the farm, you know. Or to have 12 kids so that you can survive. That’s not why people have relationships anymore.
“People have relationships because they’re trying to do two things; they want to grow as people and discover more of who they really are, and they want to be able to go out into the world and have a secure base to operate from.”
A solid, secure, functioning relationship allows you to not think about your relationship so much. And now you can go out there and explore and be of service in the world. So, to me, that’s why it’s very important. I think there was a time when feminism was rising up, and I consider myself a feminist, but I do think there were ideas that I got in early feminism that were incompatible with healthy relating and successful relationships. One would be the idea that a woman needs a man like a fish needs bicycle. I mean, you could say the same thing. A man needs a woman like a fish needs bicycle. But in fact, people need each other. It doesn’t matter if you’re a man, woman, same-sex, queer, LGBTQ. It does not matter. We need people. We need connections. We need bonding. We need relationships. And I think in our sort of culture of individualism, we’ve lost that. As a culture, we privilege the individual over the family and the couple and the bond. But I’m here to say that’s a big loss, and we need to prioritize our relationships. I’m not giving you a red state message. I’m giving you a message of, “I don’t care who the couple is. People need each other.” It’s a big thing, I think, that’s missing. There’s a lot of loneliness out there, and we need to learn how to make these connections and make them secure.
Yes! And it cannot be emphasized enough. I’m in complete resonance with what you’re saying, not only in the sense of a relationship can be a mirror. What gets activated can alert and show up for healing. As we heal, we can show up better in our relationships. We can connect and have this safe haven and this place of refuge and secure bonding that you’re talking about so that we can be more fully actualized and expressed. I think that just has this huge ripple effect.
Oh, yeah.
I love how you’re saying just there, in concert, because so much in the field of personal growth is like you got to love yourself, and I get the cultural background to this that you’re referencing. And it is such a two-pronged, right? We need to do our inner work and the need for this connection, and we are wired up for bonding as essential. Yeah.
Yeah. And we just have been. That has been sort of lost in the last, let’s say, 50 years. So we got to do that. That’s a big part of what I’m out here to say, you know, is that we need relationships, and we need secure relationships. And that’s not a thing that everybody’s able to just naturally create, so I’m here to help people create that in their lives. Yes,
Yes. And so, what you’re promoting now is a show. How did you get the idea for the show? I mean, because what I loved, I got a chance to watch a couple of episodes that your team, you know, gave me access to, and I love just the real concentrated focus on the healing and growth in relationship, kind of what we’re talking about. Obviously, the context and the focus are different, but what got you inspired to get involved in this project?
Well, actually, they came to me with it. I had been on Oprah Super Soul Sunday. They thought of me for this show when they were developing it. When I heard the idea, at first glance, you don’t understand how kind of brilliant it is because it just seems like, okay, there’s a couple that wants to get married, and their families are against it. Everybody moves into a house for three days, and we work it out. That’s the goal. The goal is to get blessings from each of the six family members. But in the process, as I am working with these couples, and now we’ve done 45 episodes of the show, it is remarkable and astounding what happens in every episode. It’s like healing happens.
People come in with sometimes the issues inside the couple, sometimes the issues inside the family. But oftentimes, there’s a mirror between the family, you know, issues in the family and issues in the couple because our relationship challenges are mostly created in our families. So, when you get the family and a couple together, there’s an opportunity for both sides to heal.”
“(…) Our relationship challenges are mostly created in our families. So, when you get the family and a couple together, there’s an opportunity for both sides to heal.”
It’s beautiful. And Tracy, I like your naming that at face value. It might not necessarily seem that deep. And yet, what you’re doing is really generational.
Oh, yes. Absolutely. I feel like the whole show is about generational trauma and healing that.
Wow. And one of the things and I don’t know if you would agree, as I’m listening to you, it’s this intention. We are intending. We’re saying yes to this endeavor, we’re getting support, and we’re holding a container, or you’re holding a container and offering guidance. But there’s something about saying yes to that. Would you agree?
Oh, for sure. I think the moment people step across the threshold, they have made an agreement with growth, and they get the growth. They’ve never imagined how it’s going to be. Now, I can imagine because I’ve seen a lot of couples and families go through the process. I think this is true in our individual lives as well. It’s like when you’re ready, when you’re willing, it happens. That’s how it happens. Because you agree, okay, it’s time. Whether you know it or not. If you live from that place where this is happening, even if it looks like a “bad thing,” this divorce is happening because I’m in agreement with it at a level that is past my conscious mind. Or even my kids are in agreement with it because they’re ready to see a different kind of relationship function. If you go to that place that the things that are being shown to you are being shown to set you free, not so that you can be degraded but so that you can be like, “Oh, shit, that’s what I believe? Okay, thank you. I’m so glad I get to see it now. Now, I can set myself free.”
So, I do believe that this is like, again, I go to the spiritual, this is the spiritual part. When you look through a spiritual lens, and I’m not saying anything about an abusive relationship. No one deserves that. You didn’t call that in, but it might be part of your belief system. And it might be time to no longer believe that and move out of agreement with anything that does not serve you in your highest self.
Beautiful. I love that. It’s so great. I’m curious for the couples that come onto the show. Is there a prerequisite to help them get in that agreement, whether or not it’s even conscious or not?
No. In season two, most of the people in season two have seen the show. I would say 99% of them have seen the show and want to come on because they want to work with this process, and they want to work with me. They see something in the process of the show, and they’re like, “That could help us.”
Now, traditionally, people go to therapy because they want their spouse to learn something. That’s why they go to couples therapy because they want their spouse to hear. They’re like, “Well, they won’t listen to me, but maybe they’ll listen to Tracy.” Do you know what I’m saying? But it doesn’t matter.
Everybody gets the lesson that they came to learn because that’s how it works. People get their lesson, whether they kind of think they want it or not. Everybody gets to grow.”
Yes. And it sounds like you’re saying there is this mirror, and not only that the relationship might be mirroring some of the patterns in the generation before, because then the generation before, right, this kind of, you know, passed down. And also, that it can be very visible and revealed when we’re creating that container and we’re opening it up. Because I remember in one of the episodes, it’s just like people don’t typically talk about these types of things and don’t know how to open this up. And so, it sounds like so much can get revealed and have access to it. Because as a watcher, it looks like you’re on a fast track with these couples.
Yeah, I would say we are. But in a way, the minute you start getting very, very honest, you start having breakthroughs really quickly.
“It doesn’t take a long time to have a breakthrough once you’re honest. It actually can happen in the snap of a finger. And once you turn the light on, it is on everywhere.”
Past, present, and future. It’s not really linear like that. People think, “Well, what could you get done in three days?” Well, they come on the show, and they see what you can get done in three days. A lot.
And have you found people to be a yes continually?
No, no. There are lots of people who are like, “No, I don’t really want to go.” And some people are really adamant about it. They don’t probably move forward as far as some of the people who are very much in agreement with it. We all do have free will, you know.
For sure.
We have free will. It’s what they decide. People get what they came for. I will say that.
Yeah, because the episode that’s in my mind right now is there was a gentleman, and he was having these unresolved feelings and concerns and issues with his mother, and he was battling some of his own anger. It didn’t appear that his mother wanted to engage at all. And then you got to her, and that was such a profound, like, I just felt the healing of that. I was like, “Wow. I’m grateful she said yes to that.” I imagine you’re creating safety to say yes to that.
Oh, definitely. But I’ve had lots of mothers who don’t want to do that work or fathers who don’t want to do that work. They just stay rooted in their position. And unfortunately, the person who ends up paying the price in some cases is their child, you know. That is really unfortunate. But what’s great for the audience and everybody around them is you get to see clearly what it looks like when parents don’t accept responsibility for their deficits. Everyone has a deficit, no big deal. You just got to own them because if you don’t own them, you know who pays the check? Your kid. And you get to see that. So maybe this mother, you know, that particular mother, she was in agreement. Other mothers are not. Other partners are not. But you get to see that and then maybe identify with it inside yourself. And that is ultimately how we are taking this message and putting it in the culture. We’re taking a process that is sort of mysterious for most people and going, “Here’s what it looks like.” Who knows what good we’re doing out there? I’m going to say a lot.
A lot. I agree. I mean, just the modeling of vulnerability and being real reveal those inside parts. That in itself is huge.
Yeah. And like, “Oh, look. There’s a man crying, and he’s still alive at the end of the episode. Do you know what I mean? He hasn’t burst into flames. And in fact, he seems freer and happier. Well, that’s a really powerful message. So yeah, there’s a lot of good. I feel very good about what we do on the show. I’m proud of the work we’re doing. And those families, they look at me at the end, and we have a moment, and it’s like, you know, thank you. And I’m like, “Thank you. You had incredible courage.”
No kidding. Yes. And I wonder, do you think it’s something special to have all of the family members there that it impacts this work?
Oh, yeah. For sure. It’s not just the couple because families are systems, and so different people play a different part in the process. There’s always one wise person who’s really raising up the whole system. There’s usually a person who’s a thorny person who’s bringing the system down. There are usually people who are confused about what’s happening. There are silent people in the process. So this is another thing that you sort of get to see.
Yes. And I wonder if there’s a level of accountability to have like, we’re all here, and we want to utilize this. Like, there’s a sense of seriousness. Not in a formal way. Do you know what I mean? Like, we’re all here with this intention.
Oh, yeah. I mean, even the viewer brings something to it. Yeah. Obviously, the outcome is done, but these episodes resonate far past these particular families and these particular couples. People watch the show. They learn. These ideas are going into communities that historically are not open to the idea of therapy. So, that’s also another part of it. I just trust that the work we’re doing is meaningful for the family involved, but it’s also just as meaningful for the audience. And, you know, honestly, extremely meaningful for me. I learned so much from these couples.
Yes. Is there anything behind the scenes that the viewers are not seeing that you feel important to name as we’re talking about growth, transformation, and relationship?
I mean, I will say everyone involved with the show is deeply committed to the healing and growth of these families and these couples. We’re here for one reason. It’s really like a labor of love. I don’t know what other reality shows are like. I know reality as a genre gets a bad reputation. But I will say this is very much in line with Oprah’s mission, you know, what Oprah has put into the world throughout her career. This is very much in line with that. We’re trying to lift people up, and we’re succeeding.
Yes. Yes. Beautiful. I’m in support of that fully. When you’re looking at the show and the arc of it, your experience, what themes get emerged, or perhaps the takeaways, is there anything you want to speak to around this particular struggle with merging two families essentially? So, anything that you want to share around this and your learning and just what you’ve experienced with these couples?
First, one family comes, and then the other family comes. Oftentimes, there’s a loud family and a quiet family, which is to say that the families can be opposite sometimes. But what I will say is these families really find common ground over the course of the three days that they’re there. It’s sort of a microcosm for where we are as a culture. These ideas of separation, I just feel like that’s the main thing we need to heal from as couples, as families, as communities, as a nation. It’s never about separation. It’s always about unity.
I don’t even think people are going for that anymore. But that’s just a moment in time. I see what we’re doing with this show is really teaching people how to be in unity. That’s what it’s about. You have to do it with yourself, and you do it with your partner, you do it in your family, you do it in your world. And so, no matter how different the families are, most of the time, they find common ground.
So, regardless of whatever the concerns are that at the end of the day, what you’re seeing is bringing people together in this bonding and this togetherness, finding common ground that then people can work together.
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, people naturally work together because they both have the same goal of having happy children, you know, a happy family member who is at the center of this couple. So there’s much more common ground than it would first seem when they walk in. Invariably, that’s what happens over the course of the three days.
Yes. I mean, even just the time spent being with each other and the energy.
Oh, yes.
I mean, myself included, I know there was a phase, my husband and I were discerning about what we wanted to do and our kind of commitment with one another. I was like, “If we don’t have a wedding, I don’t know that our families will ever meet.” They’re in totally different parts of the country. I think that’s actually more common, unfortunately. And so, people don’t have this intergenerational support or even this common ground.
Yeah, very often, the families who come on the show have never met because people do live far from each other. It’s very common that they haven’t met. But, you know, people become family really kind of, shockingly quickly. That’s what I’ve found on the show. By the end, they are family. They really and truly are.
So great. I mean, I almost feel like this could be prescriptive in the premarital process in counseling or coaching that this is just such an important piece that we don’t give enough credit and merit to.
Oh, yeah. That’s so true. That would be amazing if everybody started doing this before they got married.
No kidding.
That would be amazing.
Well, Tracy, I know our time is limited with you. Is there anything you want to say on your experience or on the show, or just around relationship and growth that you want to offer our listeners today?
No. I just think that relationships are about love. They’re about practicing love. It’s not love the feeling. It’s love the verb. And when you come into that, everything gets transformed.
“(…) Relationships are about love. They’re about practicing love. It’s not love, the “feeling”. It’s love, the “verb”. And when you come into that, everything gets transformed.”
Nice. Wonderful. Well, what would you like to say as far as how people can get in touch with the show and when and where to look for it?
Well, the show is on Saturday nights on Oprah Winfrey Network. That’s on OWN. Saturday nights, 10 Pacific and Eastern, and nine o’clock central. Or you can watch it streaming on Discovery Plus.
Wonderful.
You can find me on @TracyMcMillan on Instagram. And I’m on Twitter, and I’m on Facebook.
Wonderful. And you also have a website too.
Yeah, I don’t pay a lot of attention to it, though. To be honest.
Okay. So, social media in all the handles you just mentioned.
Pretty much. Yeah.
I’ll make sure to have all of those links as well as your previous work, including your memoir and your book on today’s show notes.
Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thank you for joining us today, Tracy. It’s been a pleasure.
Signing Off
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